Emo Re-invention

I've just started playing the FFVII port on my PS3, and I can't help but notice how un-emo Cloud really is. For must of the game he just comes off as a huge jerk, may not be your cup of tea as a character, but certainly not emo.

Then look to the most recent iterations of Cloud in AC and KH. He is a little emo b****. It almost seems like he has been completely re-invented. I can't help but think his characterization as emo is something invented completely after the fact, imo making him a far less appealing character,

Two words.


Tetsuya Nomura.

Cloud in AC is actualy dying so he has every right to feel like crap, as for his actions in the original game he's just partialy emulating Zack... so Cloud is being a little emotional, who wouldn't be if they were dying and felt too helpless to save a child they've come to care about...

on a side note i find it insulting that people use emo as an insult when it's just a sub-genre of punk music...
if it's used to mean emotional then, honestly if you dissassociate oneself from all emotion then you're just a hollow robot with no reason to even exist, so emo is a good thing, no reason to use it as an insult... call me emo and i'll be happy that you acknowledge my humanity...

Cloud does get pretty down about himself in the middle of the game, where Sephiroth and Hojo have him questioning the nature of his own existence, and he has to face the lies he's been telling himself about what happened in Nibelheim five years ago. But yes—before that, he's just surly, and after that, he's perfectly chill.

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Originally Posted by Elly

on a side note i find it insulting that people use emo as an insult when it's just a sub-genre of punk music...
if it's used to mean emotional then, honestly if you dissassociate oneself from all emotion then you're just a hollow robot with no reason to even exist, so emo is a good thing, no reason to use it as an insult... call me emo and i'll be happy that you acknowledge my humanity...

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"Emo" in this context just refers to the maudlin excess of personal melodrama commonly associated with the music and the people who make and listen to it.

For me, I felt Cloud goes through several different personalities as the whole of the VII universe unfolds. In the original game, he a surly jerk (which is my favorite version of him) in the beginning of Midgard, but once Aerith and Sephiroth enter the scene he starts to act more like Cecil from IV with his "I must atone and get revenge" kinda attitude but he's still kicking ass and taking names. At the end of Disc 1 and the beginning of Disc 2, Cloud is confused but still determined despite even him becoming aware of his own mental instability.

After the Lifestream incident in Mideel, I feel Cloud kinda falls into a persona that lacks real confidence that is more spurred on by guilt and anger than what he really wanted to do. He really falls apart as a character for me by this point but its interesting to watch. Though I do wonder if I interpret it this way cause the dialogue feels that way or if I'm being influenced by his more emotionally extreme self in the Compilation. Cause he's technically not as annoying as his Compilation/KH counterpart. This was something I wondered recently when I played the game cause he seemed more emo to me than I remember.

In the Compilation, he comes across, very self-defeating, suffers from "survivor syndrome" that really needs a quick boot to the head rather than some drawn out inner search for redemption. In AC, I understand he's dying and he cares for Denzel but I never felt he really seemed to be torn up about it. He's still hung up on Zack and Aerith and I get really annoyed cause I felt we sorta resolved all this in the game. Maybe AC Complete fixes this but it still doesn't change that Cloud spends most of AC emotionally beating himself up for crap that isn't his fault and rather than try to reason his way into a better emotional state he whines about how useless he is, cuts himself off from everyone, and half ass accepts his death as his final atonement.

He's like an overly melodramatic high school kid and its painful to watch. His uncertainty just drives me crazy, his story in Dissidia is just painful to listen to and I really had to force myself not to skip the dialogue cause he was so irritating and its obnoxious that he carries this persona in every title he appears in now. The sad thing is, he's not this bad in the original game and even when he did start to flirt with this type of territory it always felt reasonable and justified whereas now, I have to strive for excuses to his attitude.

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Originally Posted by Wolf Kanno

After the Lifestream incident in Mideel, I feel Cloud kinda falls into a persona that lacks real confidence that is more spurred on by guilt and anger than what he really wanted to do. He really falls apart as a character for me by this point but its interesting to watch. Though I do wonder if I interpret it this way cause the dialogue feels that way or if I'm being influenced by his more emotionally extreme self in the Compilation. Cause he's technically not as annoying as his Compilation/KH counterpart. This was something I wondered recently when I played the game cause he seemed more emo to me than I remember.

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I'd have to say your perception is indeed skewed by later renditions of the character, because Cloud gains confidence and peace of mind after he sorts out his head in the Lifestream.

But he has a few dialogue pieces on the Highwind where he begins to doubt himself and he needs "pep talks" from some of the cast as well. He has moments of uncertainty but I feel its more about him trying to figure out how he should act since he's been emulating Zack up until that point. Its not so much he is whiny but rather he comes across unsure of himself and he tends to be the first to suggest that the worse case scenario will happen. He just seems to have lost the confidence he had before. Its nowhere near as bad and I'm pretty sure you are right in that my last playthrough may have warped it a bit more than usual.

A lot of Cloud's lines in AC are defeatist to the point of being ridiculous. One would assume they were trying to carry on that uncertainty he had during the game, but they haven't quite got it right.

While he does have moments of decent characterisation, I feel that AC did him no justice. Better luck next time?

i got the impression from the lifestream flashbacks that Cloud was always unsure of himself... it's in that incident that he shakes off the Zack persona and takes on his real personality which was always a bit negative in some way, of course the poor translation of the original game may have something to do with the english speaking worlds misunderstanding of Clouds personality... i believe the AC persona may be more like what it was originaly intended to be, but of course the U.S. entertainment industry was afraid of anything negative, like sad endings and the lead character being less than heroic untill more recently...

I doubt that, the scene with Tifa under the airship, pepping up Yuffie about her motion sickness, Sending everyoe home to be with their families fully expecting them to come back, I have hard time believing that's all a mistranslation. Anyway it's all relative: Cloud deals with his problem by distancing himself, Cid goes to life with the woman he feels is responsible for his situation and makes her life living hell never taking 15 minutes out of his life to see if his blame isn't misplaced, Barret and Tifa blow up reactors and kill innocent people under the pretence of justice, Vincent crawls into a coffin and doesn't come out for 30 years.

Is Cloud really that bad by comparison?

EDIT: Is he that bad in Dissidia, Turk? Man, i was looking forward to that game...

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Originally Posted by Kawaii Ryûkishi

I'd have to say your perception is indeed skewed by later renditions of the character, because Cloud gains confidence and peace of mind after he sorts out his head in the Lifestream.

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I agree. He still had some later development to go, but that was definitely the incident that allowed him to start regaining his confidence to keep going forward.

EDIT: Regarding the OP, I'm no huge fan of Cloud, but he was not emo. He was a bit of a whiny jerk to start the game off, though.

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Originally Posted by Elly

i got the impression from the lifestream flashbacks that Cloud was always unsure of himself... it's in that incident that he shakes off the Zack persona and takes on his real personality which was always a bit negative in some way, of course the poor translation of the original game may have something to do with the english speaking worlds misunderstanding of Clouds personality... i believe the AC persona may be more like what it was originaly intended to be, but of course the U.S. entertainment industry was afraid of anything negative, like sad endings and the lead character being less than heroic until more recently...

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See, I got the impression Cloud was like any other boy when they first discover women and just nervous. I don't think he was like that all the time otherwise he probably wouldn't have taken the emotional abuse of being with Tifa's obnoxious friends, sticking with Tifa as she climbed Mt. Nibel, or even think about leaving his home and joining SOLDIER. I don't see how a cynical and insecure individual could do all that.

I always felt Cloud's bit of insecurity at the end was a combination of him readjusting himself to his new identity and possible second guessing his actions. Sometimes he probably wonders if his choices are really his decisions or if he might still be thinking like Zack or being manipulated by Jenova/Sephiroth.

I feel the problem some have with Cloud is that he's the reversed version of the Angsty teen hero popular in anime. His counterparts are Amuro and Shinji except, instead of starting off whiny and growing into a an individual you can be proud of; Cloud starts as this amazing person and then learns he's actually very ordinary and then decides every accomplishment he's done up to that point "doesn't count" except for when he failed "which was all his fault".

If I was Cloud's teammates, we would need an intervention and it would mostly involve beating the crap out of Cloud and making him stop thinking like a retard. We'd do Vincent next and finish with Yuffie and Tifa for the hell of it. ;)

To be fair, I feel Sephiroth has also gone over a big transformation from the original and unlike Cloud, I feel SE has been tweaking him specifically to fit into the view the fans have of him.

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Originally Posted by Jaffer

I doubt that, the scene with Tifa under the airship, pepping up Yuffie about her motion sickness, Sending everyone home to be with their families fully expecting them to come back, I have hard time believing that's all a mistranslation. Anyway it's all relative: Cloud deals with his problem by distancing himself, Cid goes to life with the woman he feels is responsible for his situation and makes her life living hell never taking 15 minutes out of his life to see if his blame isn't misplaced, Barret and Tifa blow up reactors and kill innocent people under the pretense of justice, Vincent crawls into a coffin and doesn't come out for 30 years.

Is Cloud really that bad by comparison?

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Well to be honest, VII has my least favorite class for several of the reasons stated but regardless, I think Cloud gets picked on more cause he's way more exposed than the rest of the class. Each time he basically appears more melodramatic and more angsty before and deals with the same issues except twisted and made more ridiculous depending on the title. Cloud has not grown as a character since 1997.

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EDIT: Is he that bad in Dissidia, Turk? Man, i was looking forward to that game...

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He sounds bored most of the time which is more of the VA's fault but most of his dialogue is him complaining about wanting a reason to fight and how he's not the way people think he is. Finally Sephiroth shows up and and basically say "What the smurf? Do I always need to give you a reason to get off your ass and finally do something?". That's the Reader's Digest version. Even his victory dialogue is more depressing than awesome. :cry:

I think you need to pay a little less attention to how he acts, and focus on what they all do. It really annoys the heck out of me. Cloud is going to be black gue in one month and distances himself from the twelve year old girl so she doesn't have to see that. Cid gets his dreams crushed by Shera and for the following three years or so allows her to life in his house as long as he can verbally abuse her to his hearts content. it would really take him only a few minutes to find out that it wasn't her fault.

However far more important then all this Cid is funny and awesome while Cloud is angsty and awkward. Therefore, Cid is the better character and more of a hero.

I wouldn't say Cloud is anything, as for much of the game you actually get to choose what he says and does. FFVII introduced actual role playing elements in the series by allowing you to determine the way the protagonist interacts with the rest of the cast, all of this resulting in an actual event that can change, the Gold Saucer date. Of course some of these choice-sets are simply variations on being a dick or a hero, but for the most part you got to determine who Cloud was, especially on the first disc.

Like others have said, Cloud in AC felt really out of place because he was going through the motions of things you felt were already resolved in the game. I guess the GeoStigma thing threw it off balance, but overall I was satisfied with Advent Children for what it intended to do.

in ff7, he starts out as a over-confident jackass, then ends up one, mentally screwed up jackass.

in AC, hes an emo jackass.

all in all, hes a jackarse!

I never got the impression that Cloud was emo. I tend to think of being emo as unjustified self-indulgence a lot of the time and I'll be honest, I think the experiences of Cloud are slightly trickier than those of a sixteen year old boy who can't decide which shade of black to dye his hair. There are times in the game when Cloud struggles and does question the nature of his existence to a certain extent, but given the extraordinary circumstances he's in, I'd be quite worried if he didn't.

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Originally Posted by Jaffer

I think you need to pay a little less attention to how he acts, and focus on what they all do. It really annoys the heck out of me. Cloud is going to be black gue in one month and distances himself from the twelve year old girl so she doesn't have to see that. Cid gets his dreams crushed by Shera and for the following three years or so allows her to life in his house as long as he can verbally abuse her to his hearts content. it would really take him only a few minutes to find out that it wasn't her fault.

However far more important then all this Cid is funny and awesome while Cloud is angsty and awkward. Therefore, Cid is the better character and more of a hero.

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Cid's not really the issue cause I actually do like him in VII but as I said earlier, my problem is that Cloud has justifiable reasons to be a gloomy dud but he doesn't talk about that. He spends the entirety of the movies dialogue muttering about being forgiven by Zack and Aerith which was something I felt was already resolved decently in the original game. So instead of focusing on the plot of the film Cloud would rather retcon the original so we can watch his character growth from Disc 2 again in a 90 minute film. :roll2

Its one thing saying Cloud's depressed cause he's dying and Denzel is dying but he pretty much never talks about it. I don't think he even mentions either plot element at all in his dialogue except when Tifa confronts him at Nibelheim and then he doesn't even say anything. He just goes on about how he's powerless to save people and wants to be forgiven. He finally does do some ass kicking but it doesn't change we basically retcon him so we can retell a facet of his story again. Thirty minutes of action scenes with wire-fu does not make up for spending and hour listening to Cloud whine. Thank god for DVD scene selection. ;)

Besides, being a badass in combat and then spending your dialogue muttering how he can't do anything is more annoying than saying its "wonderful character development". He was an interesting character in the original, I never found him likable but he is intriguing to a degree. In the Compilation he's disfigured shadow of his former self. He's up there with Shinji Ikari on the "angst scale".:D

I don't think he was that bad in Dissidia. I mean, I really can't blame him for needing a reason to fight. Unlike everyone else, he didn't have one. I'd be a little reluctant to fight myself. :p

True, he's not near as well done as the others, but he's not really that bad. :P

On that note, never was a big cloud fan, not of any of his incarnations. Though I certainly wouldn't call him emo. :p

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Originally Posted by Wolf Kanno

Cid's not really the issue cause I actually do like him in VII but as I said earlier, my problem is that Cloud has justifiable reasons to be a gloomy dud but he doesn't talk about that. He spends the entirety of the movies dialogue muttering about being forgiven by Zack and Aerith which was something I felt was already resolved decently in the original game. So instead of focusing on the plot of the film Cloud would rather retcon the original so we can watch his character growth from Disc 2 again in a 90 minute film. :roll2

Its one thing saying Cloud's depressed cause he's dying and Denzel is dying but he pretty much never talks about it. I don't think he even mentions either plot element at all in his dialogue except when Tifa confronts him at Nibelheim and then he doesn't even say anything. He just goes on about how he's powerless to save people and wants to be forgiven. He finally does do some ass kicking but it doesn't change we basically retcon him so we can retell a facet of his story again. Thirty minutes of action scenes with wire-fu does not make up for spending and hour listening to Cloud whine. Thank god for DVD scene selection. ;)

Besides, being a badass in combat and then spending your dialogue muttering how he can't do anything is more annoying than saying its "wonderful character development". He was an interesting character in the original, I never found him likable but he is intriguing to a degree. In the Compilation he's disfigured shadow of his former self. He's up there with Shinji Ikari on the "angst scale".:D

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Well I think we're suppose to believe that Cloud just put up a front during Disc 2 and 3 because the world needed saving. And it's not really AC that does the retcon, CC does and AV was hinting to that. in FFVII he got over his insecurities and his SOLDIER First Class persona arose from those insecurities. Now in CC it was a concious decision on his and Zack's behalf. He promised to never forget, embrace his dreams and protect his SOLDIER honour like Zack did. que to the start of FFVII where he had forgotten all about zack and was blowing up Mako reactors and killing innocent people for money under his SOLDIER First class persona.

The developers did give him something new to forgive himself for and maybe we are suppose to believe that his memories of Zack actually didn't return until after the end of FFVII but something got lost in the execution of it all.

Its a good way of looking at it but I still feel VII worked better as a stand alone title and that the Compilation has altered several of the characters. Its still technically a retcon since the Compilation (and even the Ultimania) were all written several years after the original and only had the input of a few of the original writers.

I feel VII ends on a good note for most of the cast and I feel AC turns around and retcons all this just so we can have some extra drama and perhaps squeeze out a few more spin offs and mke more money. There are a lot of things wrong with the Compilation titles from a writing/story perspective but I won't go into it here as this is specifically about Cloud.

NeoCracker: Do you even pay attention to his opening and closing dialogue? Its mostly, "I don't want to do this", "Not proud of that one", and "I'm not going to sleep well tonight". I just find it amusing he falls back on his default dilemma of having to wait for someone to prod at him before he takes action, waiting almost til the worst case scenario. Though I admit he works well as a supporting character in some of the plots (mostly Terra's since they are very similar) but I feel a difference here is that Cloud does have a stated rivalry with Sephiroth and it would have worked better if his goal was to search and defeat Sephiroth which would parallel the first disc of VII as opposed to what we got.(SPOILER) It really would have worked better considering the actual plot of Dissidia and thus the main theme of the game actually parallels to some degree the Reunion of VII.

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He promised to never forget, embrace his dreams and protect his SOLDIER honour like Zack did. que to the start of FFVII where he had forgotten all about zack and was blowing up Mako reactors and killing innocent people for money under his SOLDIER First class persona.

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Except of course that becoming a mercenary for hire was Zack's idea in the first place.

Zack explicietly said that he is enthustiastic about protecting Midgar.

No he didn't. Maybe he said that in his heroic-re-invention, but not in VII.

What he says is "That settles it! I'm going to become a mercenary! Boring stuff, dangerous stuff, anything for money."

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Originally Posted by The Turk

No he didn't. Maybe he said that in his heroic-re-invention, but not in VII.

What he says is "That settles it! I'm going to become a mercenary! Boring stuff, dangerous stuff, anything for money."

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I said it once and i'll say it now.


That can be viewed in so many wrong ways.

Lol. Maybe they were going to work in the Honeybee Inn? That might be fun..... or dangerous.... especially when Mukki is around.

What he said in FFVII is irrelevant, we're talking about the compilation here. When Cloud was busy regretting stuff in AC he was flashbacking to the Zack from Crisis Core, same footage even.

Except that Crisis Core hadn't been invented then.... Plus the thread is about how AC and the compilation completely changed Cloud so it's extremely relevant.

In VII Zack told Clout to be a mercenary. Cloud did. Cloud then had an identity crisis and got a bit depressed when he thought he was a clone, but Tifa was able to help him and he then picked himself up, pulled himself together and defeated Sephiroth.


Then AC came around and made Cloud all sad again. If you are saying that's because Zack said some stuff to him about protecting midgar then that is a retcon just like Cloud's character change in AC. In VII his character wasn't at all emo come the closing credits and he had no reason to feel guilt about anything Zack told him.

In ACC at least it was like that.

SPOILERS

*Cloud puts Buster Sword in the rock.*
Zack: My honour, my dream, they're yours now.
Cloud: I swore that I would never forget, I tried. But I...
*grabs arm, eyes turn in slits*
Sephiroth: Don't pretend you're sad, why tremble with anger that's not even there? Face it Cloud, all you are, is an empty puppet...

End SPOILERS

in AC he was already talking about him having promised to live out both our lives. Something that doesn't match up with FFVII, they made AC with the prospect of making an explaining prequel in mind.

Anyway Wolf Kanno, you say he's not depressed over the right reasons but when I say he's depressed because of GeoStigma I don't just mean he's depressed because he's sick and dying, depression, or as it was stated, having your heart filled with doubt, is a drect symptom of GeoStigma. What he focuses his sadness on is his problem.

Except no where is it ever stated that Geostigma affects the mental state of the victim. We only see Cloud affected by hallucinations and seizures, no one else.

The Compilation Ultimania doesn't even mention mental side affects of the disease, only that it affects the immune system, causes black spots, and eventual death. Nothing about causing a supernatural mental state of mind. For all we know, Cloud's mental issues from AC could be leftovers from the Sephiroth Clone experiment. Cloud may have finally overcome the Jenova cells and Sephiroth's will but it doesn't necessarily mean he's mentally strong enough to hold back subsequent attacks.

My issue is here is from a writing standpoint. Giving Cloud an incurable disease nd shackling him down with a kid with the same disease all so you can use it as an excuse to have Cloud spend the entire movie moping around about events that were resolved in the original game ultimately retconning the original for the sake of giving Cloud something to do cause obviously he's not a good enough character to overcome anything outside of mental trauma brought on by his past just like his game. In almost every title he appears in he basically relives the plot of VII, except he gets more depressing and appears more like a sick shadow of his former self.

The Compilation has done nothing but spit on the name of the original cause at this point in time if there ever is going to be a VII remake we now have to change the original in order to have everything conform to the retcon continuity from the Compilation. Now I don't claim to be a great writer but somehow, it just seems illogical to create sequels and prequels that do not conform to the continuity of the original and instead strike out on your own and create a scenario where the original will have to be changed considerably in order to fit into the sequels/prequels that were made 10 years after the fact. That's just bad writing in my book. Especially since I don't feel either Cloud, Tifa, or Sephiroth appear in any of these titles acting the same way they did in the game.

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Originally Posted by Wolf Kanno

Except no where is it ever stated that Geostigma affects the mental state of the victim. We only see Cloud affected by hallucinations and seizures, no one else.

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The Compilation Ultimania doesn't even mention mental side affects of the disease, only that it affects the immune system, causes black spots, and eventual death.

"That is why our hearts are filled with doubt." Kadaj, pretty much the guy that's causing it on Geostigma.

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Originally Posted by Wolf Kanno

My issue is here is from a writing standpoint. Giving Cloud an incurable disease nd shackling him down with a kid with the same disease all so you can use it as an excuse to have Cloud spend the entire movie moping around about events that were resolved in the original game ultimately retconning the original for the sake of giving Cloud something to do cause obviously he's not a good enough character to overcome anything outside of mental trauma brought on by his past just like his game. In almost every title he appears in he basically relives the plot of VII, except he gets more depressing and appears more like a sick shadow of his former self.

The Compilation has done nothing but spit on the name of the original cause at this point in time if there ever is going to be a VII remake we now have to change the original in order to have everything conform to the retcon continuity from the Compilation. Now I don't claim to be a great writer but somehow, it just seems illogical to create sequels and prequels that do not conform to the continuity of the original and instead strike out on your own and create a scenario where the original will have to be changed considerably in order to fit into the sequels/prequels that were made 10 years after the fact. That's just bad writing in my book. Especially since I don't feel either Cloud, Tifa, or Sephiroth appear in any of these titles acting the same way they did in the game.

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I dunno what to tell you, having a cheerful lead that spends his time banging his FF cup girlfriend wasn't going to work for most stories. It would've been fun but it wasn't going to make for a particularly immersing story.

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Originally Posted by Wolf Kanno

Its a good way of looking at it but I still feel VII worked better as a stand alone title and that the Compilation has altered several of the characters. Its still technically a retcon since the Compilation (and even the Ultimania) were all written several years after the original and only had the input of a few of the original writers.

I feel VII ends on a good note for most of the cast and I feel AC turns around and retcons all this just so we can have some extra drama and perhaps squeeze out a few more spin offs and mke more money. There are a lot of things wrong with the Compilation titles from a writing/story perspective but I won't go into it here as this is specifically about Cloud.

NeoCracker: Do you even pay attention to his opening and closing dialogue? Its mostly, "I don't want to do this", "Not proud of that one", and "I'm not going to sleep well tonight". I just find it amusing he falls back on his default dilemma of having to wait for someone to prod at him before he takes action, waiting almost til the worst case scenario. Though I admit he works well as a supporting character in some of the plots (mostly Terra's since they are very similar) but I feel a difference here is that Cloud does have a stated rivalry with Sephiroth and it would have worked better if his goal was to search and defeat Sephiroth which would parallel the first disc of VII as opposed to what we got.(SPOILER) It really would have worked better considering the actual plot of Dissidia and thus the main theme of the game actually parallels to some degree the Reunion of VII.

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Okay, his in-battle dialogue was horrid. Very, very, horrid. I won't deny that one. :p

And a simple 'search and defeat sephiroth' goal was far to simple, since Cloud obviously wanted a deeper reason. I admit he wasn't a particularly great character in Dissidia, (Or in his original game for that matter, better then later incarnations though) but he was decent.

I do agree he worked better as a supporting character though. :p

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Originally Posted by Jaffer

I dunno what to tell you, having a cheerful lead that spends his time banging his FF cup girlfriend wasn't going to work for most stories. It would've been fun but it wasn't going to make for a particularly immersing story.

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I don't think anyones denying that to be true, but the overall point is AC really doesn't have a place in the FF VII universe on the grounds it makes no sense to do when showed along side the game.

That asside, Rufus in AC is the epitome of win. 'A good son would have known' is by far the best singl line of dialogue in either the game or movie.

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Originally Posted by Jaffer

"That is why our hearts are filled with doubt." Kadaj, pretty much the guy that's causing it on Geostigma.

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A poetic line out of context doesn't really mean anything I'm afraid. The Ultimania itself never says anything about Geostigma weakening the mind. The Ultimania says its only painful and leads to death. It never says Cloud's hallucinations are a direct result of the disease. In fact he has the majority of them around Kadaj so it would be more plausible to be a result of Cloud coming into contact with Sephiroth's will.

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Originally Posted by Jaffer

I dunno what to tell you, having a cheerful lead that spends his time banging his FF cup girlfriend wasn't going to work for most stories. It would've been fun but it wasn't going to make for a particularly immersing story.

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Originally, the film was only going to be a quiet 30 minute film explaining what everyone was up to after the events of VII. There was no Geostigma or Sephy Remnants. It was decided fans wouldn't go for that (despite most that I've talked to saying that idea would have been fine if not better) so we got AC instead.

My only issue, as stated by NeoCracker is the problem that the Compilation sorta changes things left and right. It comes across very often as having no real respect for the original source material and genuinely I find most of the writing to be overly dramatic and ultimately terrible. Had they at least not try to change things for the sake of franchising the VII name out I would probably be much more kind to the Compilation but that doesn't look like its going to happen.

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Originally Posted by NeoCracker

Okay, his in-battle dialogue was horrid. Very, very, horrid. I won't deny that one. :p

And a simple 'search and defeat sephiroth' goal was far to simple, since Cloud obviously wanted a deeper reason. I admit he wasn't a particularly great character in Dissidia, (Or in his original game for that matter, better then later incarnations though) but he was decent.

I do agree he worked better as a supporting character though. :p

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I think Cloud having an obsession with tracking down Sephiroth and getting revenge would have worked so much better cause like all the other plots, it would have paralleled VII's first disc (you know, the good one) especially when its revealed (SPOILER)that everything is in a time loop with people playing out their "roles". Thus Cloud would have to face realizing that his obsession with Sephy was not his true will. Just like the game. :p

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Originally Posted by Wolf Kanno

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Originally Posted by Jaffer

"That is why our hearts are filled with doubt." Kadaj, pretty much the guy that's causing it on Geostigma.

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A poetic line out of context doesn't really mean anything I'm afraid. The Ultimania itself never says anything about Geostigma weakening the mind. The Ultimania says its only painful and leads to death. It never says Cloud's hallucinations are a direct result of the disease. In fact he has the majority of them around Kadaj so it would be more plausible to be a result of Cloud coming into contact with Sephiroth's will.

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Originally Posted by Jaffer

I dunno what to tell you, having a cheerful lead that spends his time banging his FF cup girlfriend wasn't going to work for most stories. It would've been fun but it wasn't going to make for a particularly immersing story.

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Originally, the film was only going to be a quiet 30 minute film explaining what everyone was up to after the events of VII. There was no Geostigma or Sephy Remnants. It was decided fans wouldn't go for that (despite most that I've talked to saying that idea would have been fine if not better) so we got AC instead.

My only issue, as stated by NeoCracker is the problem that the Compilation sorta changes things left and right. It comes across very often as having no real respect for the original source material and genuinely I find most of the writing to be overly dramatic and ultimately terrible. Had they at least not try to change things for the sake of franchising the VII name out I would probably be much more kind to the Compilation but that doesn't look like its going to happen.

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Originally Posted by NeoCracker

Okay, his in-battle dialogue was horrid. Very, very, horrid. I won't deny that one. :p

And a simple 'search and defeat sephiroth' goal was far to simple, since Cloud obviously wanted a deeper reason. I admit he wasn't a particularly great character in Dissidia, (Or in his original game for that matter, better then later incarnations though) but he was decent.

I do agree he worked better as a supporting character though. :p

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I think Cloud having an obsession with tracking down Sephiroth and getting revenge would have worked so much better cause like all the other plots, it would have paralleled VII's first disc (you know, the good one) especially when its revealed (SPOILER)that everything is in a time loop with people playing out their "roles". Thus Cloud would have to face realizing that his obsession with Sephy was not his true will. Just like the game. :p

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Alright, Point taken. Regardless, I still think the dissidia Cloud is well done overall. :p

However, they totally should have put Cid in instead of cloud. I still argue that Cid is the single greatest thing in FF VII.

Though I do agree that Cid is the best anything out of VII there are too many good Cid's to just let them choose him. That and he lost his cool factor when they decided to give him a dumb southern drawl for some stupid reason. The one thing I don't look forward to in a remake is listening to Cid sound like a white trash, redneck :roll2

I don't get all the Cid love myself. Yes he's a good character with an amazing run, but why is he so much better a character than say Tifa, Vincent, Yuffie, Red or Reno? He's average in battle, has almost no connection to the main plot and is a total prick for most of the game. Is it because he swears a lot?

Its because he's a total prick for most of the game. That's why I love him. He's funny in a dark humor sorta way and I honestly liked his backstory though his whole scenario of joining you doesn't really make much sense when you really think about it.

Tifa's a plot hole, Vincent is Cloud but a little worse (at least Cloud's angst is justifiable), Red XIII is boring once you get past his character design and also has no real connection to the plot, Yuffie is a smurfing whore who deserves to die, and Reno is also totally awesome in VII (also has a huge fanbase, larger than Cid, go to conventions) but has also suffered from the Compilation curse like Cloud, Sephy, and Rufus... :cry:

Oh yeah Reno got screwed in AC, but every character was awful in that film besides Tseng & Elena who weren't round long enough to do anything and Rude who amazingly is actually awesome in it. But in VII he's simply the man. You could probably go to the pub and have a few drinks and a laugh with him, but he'd slit your throat for a nickle if he was told to.... unless he's on holiday.

Vincent's a bit of a twat I'll give you that. But then he did have to see the woman he loved give birth to a mutant who would go on to become a mass murderer while he was powerless to do anything about it and become a mutant himself. Surely that and 20 odd years of isolation is enough to explain him being reclusive? The worst thing about him is that his story is never resolved and he really shouldn't have been a hidden character.

I'll give you Red, he's the one I dislike the most myself. Cid's and Yuffie's connection to the main plot is weak, but his is non-existent and his plot was pretty much dropped halfway through disc 1 and the only point he seemed to serve was being related to Bugenhagen Basil Exposition.

Yuffie is awesome. The only playable character in the game who's fully formed from the start. She doesn't go on an emotional journey to find out the truth about herself, doesn't win the respect back of her village and doesn't ride around on a freaking stuffed moggle. The Yuffie that starts the game is the same one that finishes it and I like that. Plus if you want a total prick then Yuffie outdoes Cid in that regard too, I love her reaction to Barret explaining how his home town was set ablaze, everyone he loved died and how his arm was ruined while he watched his best mate fall to his death:

"I don't feel sorry for him. It's his own fault for trusting Shinra."

Lol, what a cow. Good point though. Plus she's possibly the best fighter in the game and a super hot 16-year old ninja, what's not to like? Also at least she aint a terrorist like Barret.

As for Tifa I think I remember why you don't like her, but I don't think she's a plot hole at all- Cait Sith has that covered- but if you remind me of that I'm sure I'll find a way to have it logically make sense as I like Tifa and find her to be one of the few characters that is even remotely heroic.

Yuffie annoys and infuriates me so I will leave it at that cause she's probably the only other FF character I hate with a passion besides Yuna from X. Let's just say after spending time in Zozo in VI I gained a terrible pet peeve of having crap stolen from me which was usually punishable by Ultima. :mad2:

You know, Vincent has a tragic story but if you really look at it, he did everything he could to save her. She just decided to be a bitch and go ahead and screw him over. I don't really see why he blames himself for her choosing her career over him. He sorta has the Cloud problem of blaming himself for stuff that was really outside of his power to control and really there was little he could do once she decided to go ahead with the experiment. He tried and failed but I feel its obvious that Lucrecia is more to blame for this tragedy and that Vincent's guilt is mostly misplaced. Once again, he's much like Cloud who suffers the same problem.

Cait Sith never really bothered me, though I do feel he confirms Mel Brooks' idea from High Anxiety that the more obnoxious you are and the more you try to stand out, the more people will ignore you. Cause I'll be damned if I don't tend to forget about him a lot. Still, I don't really see him as a plot hole like Tifa.

Tifa's main problem is that she is pretty much privy to all the great "secrets" of the game and yet its never really stated why she keeps them a secret. She kinda half ass tries to tell Cloud the truth in the first disc but really she has no excuse to keep the truth a secret. She literally waits until the plot twist and that kinda bothers me. It just seemed like she was only privy to the info so we could have confirmation of Cloud not being who he said he was an so for me, I felt that whole plot twist was sorta forced to a degree. The game never gave a proper explanation for why Tifa withheld the truth, all we have is speculation and I really feel this is the kinda info that shouldn't be left to speculation.

Not to mention the whole "we're childhood friends/sweethearts" which is revealed in the Lifestream incident to be a lie as Tifa's only real memory of Cloud before he called her out to the water tower is that he was just another kid in the village that tagged along with her friends. So I find it rather annoying to see her acting like they were the closest of the close when they barely knew each other. Especially when she sees the truth and basically goes "Well I'll be damned" and then continues on like nothing has changed. Their whole relationship with each other is pretty messed up from a writing standpoint and I oddly feel that the whole scenario may have worked better had she not existed. A funny thing to say considering she was a late entry into the original plot anyway.

I'll quote my old comment about Cait from a thread recently:

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I don't like Cait Sith because I just don't think it makes any sense at all. So it's meant to be a talking cat on a robot moggle right? Why doesn't that seem strange to anybody? About Red XIII they are all like "OMG, IT SPEAKS!" but when face to face with Cait, nobody batters an eye lid. Also why did Reeves use a robot cat..... to control a robot moggle anyway? I'd have much preferred it if Cait Sith looked human but was actually an android.

Lastly how did he manage to get away using Cait without anybody else in Shinra noticing? I understand at first it was part of Shinra's plot to use Cait as a spy, but that plan should have finished at the Temple of the Ancients. How he was allowed to continue to use it without them knowing was remarkable. At one point Reeves manages to have two simultaneous conversations with Scarlet & Heidnegger and Cloud and co. And then after he is arrested by Shinra he STILL manages to control Cait! Crazy.

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Now Tifa does explain why she held the secrets from Cloud in the life stream. She says she found him, or what he thought was him, at the Sector 7 train station and took him back to her bar (this being shortly after Zack's exit from the game). She goes on to say that Cloud kept talking about stuff he shouldn't have known (the Nibel incident- Tifa thinks he shouldn't have known that due to him not being there), but felt that if she told him the truth it would destroy him.

I can't remember the exact words she used, but given Cloud's extremely fragile nature I think it's fair to say her casually saying "What? You were never at Nibel, liar!" would have screwed him up. Indeed at the Whirlwind maze that is exactly what happens. Sephiroth tells Mr. Strife that he was never at Nibel, but Cloud shrugs this off. It's when Tifa reveals the truth that he really breaks down and willingly becomes a puppet to Jenova.

Several times during the game Tifa makes the choice to withhold the information to Cloud out of fear of what the truth will do to him. Play the Nibel flashback again and you can see signs of this "Did you go into my house Cloud?" which at first seems like her being embarrassed that Cloud enters becomes her quizzing him on the events on the 2nd playthrough and that is even truer with her final question: "Cloud how badly hurt was I?" after Sephiroth attacked her.

Also when she's not probing Cloud on questions during his retelling of that incident she is notably quiet ".........." which I reckon is her going ".......how does he know all this stuff? Who the hell is thus guy if it's not Cloud?" At Junon too she decided to change the subject when Cloud questions why him and Tifa never met up during the incident.

I think she was looking out for Cloud the whole game and indeed it was her who always believed the Cloud she was with was the same boy she knew all those years ago, even when he himself doubted it.


As for your second point, that is harder to explain. They were obviously next door neighbours and Cloud had a big crush on her for a while. They weren't that close, but obviously knew each other their whole lives and maybe during the well incident Tifa realised that Cloud liked her and perhaps she did too?

From what i understand she was doubting her own memories more then she was Cloud's, he knew how their conversations went, including the ones between just Tifa and Zack, he knew what happened that day, he knew how she was hurt, he knew what her bedroom looked like, he knew what the top piece of underwear was in her underwear drawer was that day, he also had the outfit, the sword, and Zack's walk and talk (according to Aeris). She had a photograph and blurry memories. I can't imagine Tifa would have been able to convince Cloud to see it her way if she tried.

Here are lines of dialogue from that scene btw.

Tifa: "I've been hiding it for some time, afraid that if I told you... something terrible might happen. But, I'm not going to hide anything anymore."

(With a white flash, Sephiroth, the guards, and the past Cloud disappear, leaving only Cloud and Tifa.)

Tifa: You weren't here. Cloud did not come to Nibelheim five years
ago."


Also Tifa says that she really started to think about Cloud more after he left, so that sheds some light onto the 2nd question.

I posted a lot of thoughts about Dissidia Cloud over in the Dissidia "Out of Character" thread, but I'll quote those here:

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Cloud is, thus far, the most out-of-character hero and story I've seen. In FFVII, he spent the majority of the game doing Sephiroth's bidding, without ever questioning why he was doing what he was doing. Sephiroth was omnipresent in VII, always leading Cloud onward. In Dissidia, Sephiroth is absent from much of Cloud's journey, and when he appears, he makes his usual speech about Cloud being his puppet. Yet, in Dissidia, Cloud is searching for a reason to go on fighting, which is a drastic shift from his original behaviour and motivation. In VII, there was only one point (maybe two) where Cloud wondered what he was fighting for, and it was a very small part of the game. Furthermore, he found something to fight for in the VII.

The end of FFVII marked the end of Cloud's story. Cloud's journey in VII was one of self discovery. Learning who he was, what his past was, why he originally embarked on his journey, and why he was more than just a Sephiroth clone. In Dissidia, however, he doesn't make that journey at all. He looks for one of his answers (and one that was very minor in FFVII), but never finds it. His journey gets no closure, no answer.

He doesn't even really fit in with his Compilation self. Because, in Advent Children, his question was never about why he fought, it was about whether he could or not. He doubted not his reasons, but his strength. The strength of his will to go on, and his body to fight the Geostigma. Compilation Cloud was all about finding the strength to overcome his trials, not finding the reason to undertake the trials at all, which is the focus of Dissidia Cloud.

And, yet, there is something fitting about Cloud's behaviour in Dissidia, because there is something crucial to Cloud that is missing from Dissidia, and that was his motivation. In FFVII, Cloud had two motivations that drove him beyond Sephiroth's manipulations: Tifa and Aeris. Each was a huge driving force in his life. Aeris's death gave a drive for revenge that continued on until the endgame with Sephiroth. And Tifa was the reason he left on his journey in the first place. Which played a more crucial role in motivating him is up for debate, as it depends on your actions in FFVII, and your interpretation of the events and your view on the love triangle. But it is obvious that both are huge motivators during Cloud's life.

In Dissidia, however, neither is there. Not just are they not in the game, but they aren't even hinted at (whereas Squall does hint that there is someone who promised to be waiting for him at one point, so even though Rinoa's not in-game, we can surmise that she's at least in the universe). So Cloud in Dissidia is the way he would be without them: drifting and empty, unsure of why he is on his journey.

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Cloud's story in Dissidia is completely unfinished. Of all the stories I've seen in the game so far, his is the only one that completely lacks closure. Sephiroth does his standard "you'll never be rid of me" speech, and Cloud doesn't find his reason to keep going. Though he might have by Shade Impulse, as he mentions that if they win there, everything might go back the way it was before, or even better. He made that up, but he might want to believe it, and be fighting in the hopes that it would come true.

In AC Complete, at least, he mostly seemed depressed because of the Geostigma. He wanted to help Denzel, Marlene, and Tifa, but since he couldn't even save himself from the disease, he didn't see how he could save the others. He did dwell on Aeris and Zack some, and seemed to wonder a little if his Geostigma was his punishment for failing to save them, but, overall, his depression seemed focused on the disease, not on his past with Sephiroth, Aeris, and Zack.

He had a lot of different personalities in the original game, though. He started out as the self-centered jerk throughout Midgar. He gets on a huge revenge streak in Kalm as he reveals the events of Nibelheim, and rides that train through to the Temple of the Ancients, where he flips out and becomes a jibbering idiot for a little while. He goes on after Sephiroth until the lifestream event, where he spends time in his own little world pondering existential mysteries, until Tifa helps him find himself and he gets back together. Finally understanding who he is and what he wants, he finally becomes a leader and takes charge of the team. He forces them all to take some time to actually think about what they are fighting for, so that he knows that they are all in it for the right reasons, and he drives them home and finally conquers his last inner demon when he defeats the remnants of Sephiroth and Jenova inside himself (and, yes, he finally comes to grip with the Aeris/Zack stuff then too).

Really, he has so many different shifts to his persona in FFVII, another one isn't exactly surprising, especially since the depression makes sense with the Geostigma infection he suffers from.

I guess my problem is that I cannot fathom her logic. Cloud has been acting weird since you met him and has stories about events he shouldn't know. Would you really follow someone this creepy? Would you allow your friends and comrades to believe in his stories when you know something might be up? I just can't fathom why you would do it. She could have at least mentioned something to the rest of the party.

Though its nice to remember she does try but I feel her excuse is kinda weak as I feel the ramifications of her decision (especially if it turned out Sephiroth wasn't lying and Cloud really was just a cluster of Jenova cells taking human form and ready to be used to murder them all) was too extreme to be laid on a gamble that conveniently worked itself out after a few other convenient accidents that led to an eventual recovery.

It bothers me to know end yet I also blame that her attempts at talking to him are spread very far apart in the story, a few even being miss-able if she's not with you (Like going to Zack's hometown). Basically every ten hours she kinda reminds you something is not right about the Nibelheim incident whereas Aerith is continually noticing inconsistencies with Cloud's personality and telling it to his face (which he does shrug off) through out the story. Almost going so far as to almost figuring out the truth at the date.

As for Tifa doubting her own memory, I can kinda understand since Cloud speaks with eerie accuracy but at the same time, I feel the difference (Zack not being there and Cloud being there, not to mention Cloud "plays" Zack's more upbeat attitude when he does his role despite being a rather quiet and stoic figure) is kinda extreme enough to make that not a factor. As I said before, there is so much wrong in her logic I feel it was irresponsible of her to withhold the truth in hopes that things "might get better".

As for Dissidia Cloud, he is really off from even his AC attitude (except for his wonderful upbeat dialogue :roll2 ) but he does sorta get a goal he seeks but its not revealed in his Destiny Odyssey. I also disagree about Cloud focusing on his disease, I believe he rarely spoke of it except when people point it out. I felt Cloud dwelled far more on his regret and mistakes rather than worrying about his illness and dying. Yet I understand this may have been my way of interpreting it.

Cloud's post-FFVII attitude swing makes sense to me. During the game he was able to focus on some goal or purpose - staying alive to fight for the survival of the planet, and for his personal resolution. But once that was done... what did he really have? He had lost a lot during that battle, and also learned some god-awful truths about himself, like the way he had actually spent five years in captivity as a laboratory test subject, with his physiology, his personality and even his memories re-shaped by what was done to him.

Add to that his strong undercurrent of self-doubt and self-blame - which are evident even in the game - and you've got a recipe for brooding and withdrawal.

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Originally Posted by Wolf Kanno

I guess my problem is that I cannot fathom her logic. Cloud has been acting weird since you met him and has stories about events he shouldn't know. Would you really follow someone this creepy? Would you allow your friends and comrades to believe in his stories when you know something might be up? I just can't fathom why you would do it. She could have at least mentioned something to the rest of the party.

Though its nice to remember she does try but I feel her excuse is kinda weak as I feel the ramifications of her decision (especially if it turned out Sephiroth wasn't lying and Cloud really was just a cluster of Jenova cells taking human form and ready to be used to murder them all) was too extreme to be laid on a gamble that conveniently worked itself out after a few other convenient accidents that led to an eventual recovery.

It bothers me to know end yet I also blame that her attempts at talking to him are spread very far apart in the story, a few even being miss-able if she's not with you (Like going to Zack's hometown). Basically every ten hours she kinda reminds you something is not right about the Nibelheim incident whereas Aerith is continually noticing inconsistencies with Cloud's personality and telling it to his face (which he does shrug off) through out the story. Almost going so far as to almost figuring out the truth at the date.

As for Tifa doubting her own memory, I can kinda understand since Cloud speaks with eerie accuracy but at the same time, I feel the difference (Zack not being there and Cloud being there, not to mention Cloud "plays" Zack's more upbeat attitude when he does his role despite being a rather quiet and stoic figure) is kinda extreme enough to make that not a factor. As I said before, there is so much wrong in her logic I feel it was irresponsible of her to withhold the truth in hopes that things "might get better".

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Tifa has two options in which to believe in: Cloud has mind reading powers, used these on you and Zack, stole Zack's clothes, sword, personality and way of walking and talking somehow and is hiding it. And that still doesn't explain how Sephiroth, actually DOES know Cloud.

Or after being pushed down a flight of stairs an falling head first on a metal surface, after which you express how you hate Shinra, SOLDIER, Sephiroth and Cloud, you eventually subconciouslly replaced Cloud with a stranger instead of acknowledge him being buddybuddy with the person who annialated your village.

Now as it happens the reality is even more unbelievable then the first option but you get the point. The group had no reason to take her word over Cloud's, quite a few less actually, save for Aeris and Tifa actually does tell Aeris though the scene in which Cloud is given an option to eavesdrop was cut.

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Originally Posted by Wolf Kanno

As for Dissidia Cloud, he is really off from even his AC attitude (except for his wonderful upbeat dialogue :roll2 ) but he does sorta get a goal he seeks but its not revealed in his Destiny Odyssey. I also disagree about Cloud focusing on his disease, I believe he rarely spoke of it except when people point it out. I felt Cloud dwelled far more on his regret and mistakes rather than worrying about his illness and dying. Yet I understand this may have been my way of interpreting it.

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He... rarely spoke about either at all.

Rufus calls out Cloud, he slowly reacts with "But I..." then gets interrupped by Reno.

Reno and Rude asks if he cares about the kids at all, he keeps silent.

Tifa asks if he's got GeoStigma, he replies that there is no cure, Tifa says he's given up, C says he's not fit to help anyone, blablabla.

Then in the Forest of Death, the place of Aeris' murder, yeah Cloud starts focusing on that for a while.

But in all honesty neither of these are the cause. Cloud got a emo personality because that's what the fans wanted. In the Final Fantasy Advent children Reunion Files no correlation is made between Cloud's sombre personality and Geostigma or his regret. From what I can tell the producers found it quite believable that Cloud would feel a wave of regret about Aerith if he visited the Forgotten City, but they just retconned him. Having read Reunion Files now I'm pretty sure that when they remake FFVII Cloud'll be mopey for the entirety of the last two discs.

I can't help but agree that the prequels and sequels wreck and tarnish FF7 as a whole. I have seen enough to know that I will never play them (one time I would have given it a try, but now I have got wise to it and steer clear), and I was 50/50 on Advent children with regards to how I liked it.

One thing that really annoyed me is the translators made no attempts to correct some of the mistakes, ones like Sierra being called Shera

It is for this reason that I instructed my translators to disregard Canon totally, and treat FF7 as if it were stand alone. Future installments, imho have no bearing on VII. It ended with VII and it started with VII.

How many times can a writer invent the wheel? It seems a nice cash opportunity comes along, and that is all that matters. Doesn't matter if you reinvent characters, retcon or otherwise butcher the series (such as bringing Hojo back with a lame plot device. I mean, really, how many times has the old "His brain is in a computer" been pulled in useless fiction?)

Sequels and prequels end up working against a story (with a few exceptions), Examples are Alien 3 + resurrection, Metal Gear Solid 2+, Star wars Ep 1,2,3, matrix 2+3, Terminator 3+4+39204739, Rocky 2+, Final Fantasy X-2

If they aren't well thought out, all they do is take away from what was a great game and most will use some daft plot device to bring back a main character:

Hojo, Ripley, Tidus, Big Boss... It just screams bad fiction and lazy writing.





That is my view on it.

Metal Gear Solid shouldn't really be on that list- 2 & 4 were good, albiet flawed, games but 3 is the best of the lot. Bringing back BBoss though was retarded. Plus MGS is already the third in the series..... in fact those examples you chose were odd as Empire Strikes Back, Aliens & Terminator 2 are the best of the bunch and are all sequels.

It's true though that on the whole most sequels are more 'Bride of Chucky' than 'Bride of Frankenstien'.

Hey come play this new game caleld EmoGame - the Emo Browsergame

I dunno... I'm fond of Cloud as a character because he goes through some changes as a person and his personality differs through the game and even AC. I just think it makes him feel a little more human than Tidus who is either the happiest guy in the world or crying most of the time. Not that I didn't like X, but I found Titus hard to connect to. Maybe I put too much stock in characters and story sometimes, but that's why I'm fond of seven. I like the story and have fond memories of the characters. Do I think everyone should? Oh god no. I've met people who I really wish hadn't played seven and maybe that would untarnish the reputation it seems to have these days. I guess it irritates me that people rip the game apart because of the people who like it, not the game itself. If that were always the case I feel like Halo would be a lot less popular...

But all-in-all I like Cloud as a character, maybe because of his flaws and not despite them.

Again, that's just me.

Cloud was never my favourate character in FFVII but I never saw him as emo (which would have annoyed me), but more of a lone wolf or a bit of an ass, which I didn't mind.

When I saw AC I wanted to blow my FFVII brains all over the damn bedroom. I thought it was just a blur of random fighting scenes and did little to develop the characters more or show what they've been doing for the past 2(?) years.
The only people who I thought it helped me to understand more was Rude and Reno (who were great and the films one redeeming feature). I also didn't like the fact that no one died in the end, even though they should have (e.g. all of the Turks).

And what PO'd me the most was that Rufus was still alive! Damn it I loved him so much his death in FFVII was perfect. :mad2:

crop, this is the problem with graphical power. The more you give, the more they use it as a substitute for good gaming and story.

It goes to their heads.