I mean this mainly in reference to maps. Is there some reason that North is always up? As seen from space, there is no relative "up." Maps are nothing more than an earthly view from space. Are they not?
So did someone just decide that North would be up and everyone else fell in line? It seems obvious that cartographers would need some way to keep consistency, but why point North upward?
I was pondering initially that it could have to do with European superiority over map construction, being that European cartographers would very likely draw Europe above Africa. Everywhere else would be placed accordingly. This theory was shot down when I realized that it's unlikely that other nations didn't make maps at the same time as, if not earlier than, Europe. Of course, the same hypothesis could be applied to most other nations. It seems right because richer nations tend to be toward the top of the map, but then most nations are toward the top of the map, so I guess it could be more attributed to that.
Note that I would really like serious answers. The only reason I didn't post it in EoEO is because I didn't quite think it EoEO-worthy. I understand that I'm absolutely asking for it in Gen Chat though.
Also, I'm not debating that North should in fact be pointed in any other direction, but asking why it remains at the top. If you'd like to argue that point though, I won't stop you.
Anyway, answer plz.
10-21-2009, 01:40 AM
McLovin'
It's all part of the communist agenda.
10-21-2009, 02:03 AM
I Took the Red Pill
Quote:
Originally Posted by Wikipedia
In physics, all magnets have two poles that are distinguished by the direction of the magnetic flux. In principle these poles could be named in any way; for example, as "+" and "−", or "A" and "B". However, based on the early use of magnets in compasses they were named the "north pole" (or more explicitly "north-seeking pole"), "N", and the "south pole" (or "south-seeking pole"), "S", with the north pole being the pole that pointed north (i.e. the one attracted to the Earth's North Magnetic Pole). Because opposite poles attract, the Earth's North Magnetic Pole is therefore, by this definition, physically a magnetic field south pole. Conversely, the Earth's South Magnetic Pole is physically a magnetic field north pole.
10-21-2009, 02:11 AM
rubah
Unless you turn your text all around, you have to align your maps one way or another. Probably they weren't standardized until Columbus Webster came about in the 1840s and realized if everyone insisted on drawing maps whichever way, they'd never be able to chart the entire globe thoroughly.
But yes, it's the white man dominating the indigene.
10-21-2009, 02:29 AM
Mogi
Quote:
Originally Posted by I Took the Red Pill
Quote:
Originally Posted by Wikipedia
In physics, all magnets have two poles that are distinguished by the direction of the magnetic flux. In principle these poles could be named in any way; for example, as "+" and "−", or "A" and "B". However, based on the early use of magnets in compasses they were named the "north pole" (or more explicitly "north-seeking pole"), "N", and the "south pole" (or "south-seeking pole"), "S", with the north pole being the pole that pointed north (i.e. the one attracted to the Earth's North Magnetic Pole). Because opposite poles attract, the Earth's North Magnetic Pole is therefore, by this definition, physically a magnetic field south pole. Conversely, the Earth's South Magnetic Pole is physically a magnetic field north pole.
That's not exactly what I meant, though thanks for the input. You learned me. I mean what made man put North at the top of the map? Even relatively speaking, North isn't inherently "up."
Quote:
Originally Posted by rubah
But yes, it's the white man dominating the indigene.
That's exactly what I was thinking. But there's no law of standardization or whatever? There's no book-written law that says that North goes on the top? It's just common sense of cartographers to fall in line with the majority?
10-21-2009, 02:50 AM
The Space Pope
Go to Bizarro world if you don't like it.
Bring a sweater though cause it gets really cold up west.
10-21-2009, 03:03 AM
Mogi
Quote:
Originally Posted by The Space Pope
Go to Bizarro world if you don't like it.
Bring a sweater though cause it gets really cold up west.
EXACTLY
Why isn't West up? Then Europe would be above everything else, of course running with the assumption that the majority of the world was unaware of the Americas' existence.
10-21-2009, 04:03 AM
XxSephirothxX
You know how the word "bowl" starts to sound really weird if you repeat it over and over again?
Yeah, it's like that.
10-21-2009, 04:08 AM
Meat Puppet
oh man that is so profound and philosophical i think you should be like, mayor of bleedlebee or something
10-21-2009, 04:17 AM
Bunny
God, threads like this piss me the smurf off. Go think of something more important than trying to be intelligent and failing miserably.
10-21-2009, 04:18 AM
ljkkjlcm9
Well I think it honestly has something to do with the compass. The magnet gets pulled to the north, and so that's naturally the up direction. It's like, why is 0 minutes on a clock up? For some reason for people, it just makes sense to start UP and work around in a circle. So when your compass points North, that's UP.
Also the world rotates on that axis from North to South pole, so it makes sense for those to be the Up and Down.
If you really want to start asking questions, why was it named North? Why East, west south? What's a word anyways.
Things like this are pointless to question: here's some more info for you:
Quote:
They used to use urine to tan animal skins, so
families used to all pee in a pot & then once a day it was taken & sold to the
tannery.......if you had to do this to survive you were "Piss Poor"
But worse than that were the really poor folk
who couldn't even afford to buy a pot............they "didn't have a pot to piss
in" and were the lowest of the low.
Most people got married in June because they
took their yearly bath in May, and they still smelled pretty good by June.
however, since they were starting to smell . .. . brides carried a bouquet of
flowers to hide the body odour Hence the custom today of carrying a bouquet when
getting married.
Baths consisted of a big tub filled with hot
water. The man of the house had the privilege of the nice clean water, then all
the other sons and men, then the women and finally the children. Last of all the
babies. By then the water was so dirty you could actually lose someone in it.
hence the saying, "Don't throw the baby out with the Bath water!"
Houses had thatched roofs-thick straw-piled
high, with no wood underneath. It was the only place for animals to get warm, so
all the cats and other small animals (mice, bugs) lived in the roof. When it
rained it became slippery and sometimes the animals would slip and fall off the
roof. Hence the saying "It's raining cats and dogs."
There was nothing to stop things from falling
into the house. This posed a real problem in the bedroom where bugs and other
droppings could mess up your nice clean bed. Hence, a bed with big posts and a
sheet hung over the top afforded some protection. That's how canopy beds came
into existence.
The floor was dirt. Only the wealthy had
something other than dirt. Hence the saying, "Dirt poor." The wealthy had slate
floors that would get slippery in the winter when wet, so they spread thresh
(straw) on floor to help keep their footing. As the winter wore on, they added
more thresh until, when you opened the door, it would all start slipping
outside. A piece of wood was placed in the entrance-way. Hence: a thresh hold.
In those old days, they cooked in the kitchen
with a big kettle that always hung over the fire. Every day they lit the fire
and added things to the pot. They ate mostly vegetables and did not get much
to eat. They would eat the stew for dinner, leaving leftovers in the pot to get
cold overnight and then start over the next day. Sometimes stew had food in it
that had been there for quite a while. Hence the rhyme: Peas porridge hot, peas
porridge cold, peas porridge in the pot nine days old.
Sometimes they could obtain pork, which made
them feel quite special.. When visitors came over, they would hang up their
bacon to show off. It was a sign of wealth that a man could, "bring home the
bacon." They would cut off a little to share with guests and would all sit
around and chew the fat.
Those with money had plates made of pewter.
Food with high acid content caused some of the lead to leach onto the food,
causing lead poisoning death. This happened most often with tomatoes, so for the
next 400 years or so, tomatoes were considered poisonous.
Bread was divided according to status. Workers
got the burnt bottom of the loaf, the family got the middle, and guests got the
top, or the upper crust.
Lead cups were used to drink ale or whisky.
the combination would sometimes knock the imbibers out for a couple of days.
someone walking along the road would take them for dead and prepare them for
burial. They were laid out on the kitchen table for a couple of days and the
family would gather around and eat and drink and wait and see if they would wake
up. Hence the custom of holding a wake.
England is old and small and the local folks
started running out of places to bury people. So they would dig up coffins and
could take the bones to a bone-house, and reuse the grave. When reopening these
coffins, 1 out of 25 coffins were found to have scratch marks on the inside and
they realized they had been burying people alive. So they would tie a string on
the wrist of the corpse, lead it through the coffin and up through the ground
and tie it to a bell. Someone would have to sit out in the graveyard all night
(the graveyard shift.) to listen for the bell; thus, someone could be, saved by
the bell or was considered a dead ringer...
THE JACKAL
10-21-2009, 04:22 AM
Madonna
Why do we use any words as signifiers?! Why did we not use "crunchy" instead of "up"!? Why did we not use "norte" while we were at it?!
Hey, let us not use words to intelligibly convey meanings to one another and instead go a idgres poi oyum ut!?
Why do we use any words as signifiers?! Why did we not use "crunchy" instead of "up"!? Why did we not use "norte" while we were at it?!
Hey, let us not use words to intelligibly convey meanings to one another and instead go a idgres poi oyum ut!?
Lynx has a point here. If you break things down that far, everything is arbitrary. Yeah, "north" is not "up," and when viewed from space Earth could be viewed from a variety of perspectives, but it was arbitrarily unified that way for cartography. If you think that is worth questioning, what about all words, or numbers, or clothing? It's arbitrary. Of course, that fact doesn't make any of those things pointless.
10-21-2009, 08:29 AM
Old Manus
When you use a compass, it points to the top or bottom of the earth. The only thing that could have changed would be the difference between North and South. This is pretty basic physics.
10-21-2009, 09:51 AM
Unbreakable Will
Quote:
Originally Posted by McLovin'
It's all part of the communist agenda.
This.
And Im afriad I have to disagree with Bunny. Asking questions like this shows intelligence, well I think so anyway, keep pondering the secrets of the universe (or communists) Mogi.
10-21-2009, 01:22 PM
Timekeeper
Well according to some random guy I found on the internet:
"The notion that north should always be up and east at the right was established by the Egyptian astronomer Ptolemy (90-168 AD). "Perhaps this was because the better-known places in his world were in the northern hemisphere, and on a flat map these were most convenient for study if they were in the upper right-hand corner," historian Daniel Boorstin opines. Mapmakers haven't always followed Ptolemy; during the Middle Ages, Boorstin notes, maps often had east on top--whence the expression "to orient." But north prevailed over the long haul. By the time Southern Hemispheroids had become numerically significant enough to bitch, the north-side-up convention was too well established to change."
Yea Ptolemy!
10-21-2009, 04:42 PM
Bunny
Ptolemy wasn't Egyptian.
10-21-2009, 04:53 PM
Kirobaito
Quote:
Originally Posted by Bunny
Ptolemy wasn't Egyptian.
That's unnecessarily splitting hairs and you know it. He was born, lived in, and died in Egypt.
10-21-2009, 07:18 PM
rubah
as long as he practiced egyptian astronomy, the grammar stands 8)
10-21-2009, 07:47 PM
Rodarian
Lets say East is UP....Would this thread still exist.....Hmmmmm
10-21-2009, 08:42 PM
Mogi
Yeah, I definitely wasn't posting this thread to sound smart. If you knew me at all, you'd realize that. I was genuinely curious as to why maps were designed that way and, since a lot of my questions like this in the past have been answered without my asking at all, I figured I'd ask all of you here on EoFF. The only reason I hesitated at all and didn't post it hours before was because I knew there would be at least a few people who'd give me replies like that.
Anyway, thanks for those of you who helped. Timekeeper, that was very interesting and helped a lot.
EDIT: Srsly, it's just a smurfing question.
EDITRA: If East was up, this thread would instead question why it was chosen to be up.
So, Timekeeper, East was initially up? That's interesting! A search for Ptolemy didn't quite find what I was looking for. Do you have any idea how I can find other information on the topic?
10-21-2009, 08:53 PM
The Space Pope
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mogi
The only reason I hesitated at all and didn't post it hours before was because I knew there would be at least a few people who'd give me replies like that.
Does it really matter, like, at all, what other people post at you?
Seriously I never understood that way of thinking.
10-21-2009, 09:00 PM
Mogi
I also find the upside down map to be very interesting.
X3
Quote:
Originally Posted by The Space Pope
Seriously I never understood that way of thinking.
Well, I'd really appreciate actual answers to the question, rather than snide remarks about how my question is pointless or whatever, but I guess you're right. Since I did get actual answers and not everything was absolute bull :bou::bou::bou::bou:, I guess we're good. Thanks for helping me see that, Space Pope.
10-21-2009, 09:01 PM
The Space Pope
You're welcome, I'm here to serve humanity.
Well not really but that's my cover story.
10-21-2009, 09:02 PM
Shlup
What if my blue is your orange and your red is my manilla? What if we all really have the same favorite color but it's a different name to us?
WHAT IF?
I smurfing hate philosophizing.
10-21-2009, 09:05 PM
Mogi
Quote:
Originally Posted by ShlupQuack
What if my blue is your orange and your red is my manilla? What if we all really have the same favorite color but it's a different name to us?
WHAT IF?
I smurfing hate philosophizing.
That's all neat and stuff, and I think that's a very interesting thought, but I'm being serious.
10-21-2009, 10:31 PM
Jessweeee♪
I think the coffee was full of mean beans today :(
10-21-2009, 10:34 PM
blackmage_nuke
I think someone once told my that the compasses in ancient china use to point south but that might just be a filthy lie.
10-21-2009, 11:14 PM
rubah
it would depend on when the last pole reversal was and the way they manufactured compasses in ancient china.
10-21-2009, 11:34 PM
The Space Pope
Quote:
Originally Posted by rubah
pole reversal
Is that how you became female?
10-22-2009, 12:27 AM
NorthernChaosGod
Quote:
Originally Posted by ShlupQuack
What if my blue is your orange and your red is my manilla? What if we all really have the same favorite color but it's a different name to us?
WHAT IF?
I smurfing hate philosophizing.
I agree. What benefit is it?
10-22-2009, 12:17 PM
Timekeeper
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mogi
So, Timekeeper, East was initially up? That's interesting! A search for Ptolemy didn't quite find what I was looking for. Do you have any idea how I can find other information on the topic?
It's hard to tell what the initial direction used was, I guess it differed from place to place depending on their beliefs, customs and directions they find sacred. For example, one site explains the Arabic choice:
They put south at the top. This is because when you wake up and face the sun, south is on the right. Because of positive associations with the right as opposed to left, they put that on top.
Yemen is so named because it is on the "yamin" right of Arabia. And of course, with the sea to the south of them there was nothing "on top" of the country, so they prefered it that way. Europeans learnt mapmaking from the Arabians and flipped the map to make themselves on top.
And then apparently in Medieval Europe:
Jerusalem was on top because that was the Holy Land.
This meant that east was more or less at the top.
There are some more details on different directional choices by different cultures here.
I just found that one site with Google, if you want even more, try Googling some sections of the things that I have quoted, they might lead you to more sites who have also quoted that author. Goodluck!
Quote:
Originally Posted by NorthernChaosGod
Quote:
Originally Posted by ShlupQuack
What if my blue is your orange and your red is my manilla? What if we all really have the same favorite color but it's a different name to us?
WHAT IF?
I smurfing hate philosophizing.
I agree. What benefit is it?
I'd explain it in my own words, but this guys says it much better:
Quote:
According to Russell Ackoff, a systems theorist and professor of organizational change, the content of the human mind can be classified into five categories:
Data: symbols
Information: data that are processed to be useful; provides answers to "who", "what", "where", and "when" questions
Knowledge: application of data and information; answers "how" questions
Understanding: appreciation of "why"
Wisdom: evaluated understanding.
Ackoff indicates that the first four categories relate to the past; they deal with what has been or what is known. Only the fifth category, wisdom, deals with the future because it incorporates vision and design. With wisdom, people can create the future rather than just grasp the present and past. But achieving wisdom isn't easy; people must move successively through the other categories.
To reach Understanding and Wisdom you must philosophize a bit.
10-22-2009, 05:06 PM
Bunny
Quote:
Originally Posted by Kirobaito
Quote:
Originally Posted by Bunny
Ptolemy wasn't Egyptian.
That's unnecessarily splitting hairs and you know it. He was born, lived in, and died in Egypt.
These three things do not necessarily mean that he was Egyptian. He was a Roman citizen who had the misfortune of being born outside of Rome. By all standards then and now, he was still a Roman.
10-22-2009, 05:21 PM
Agent Proto
Quote:
Originally Posted by rubah
it would depend on when the last pole reversal was and the way they manufactured compasses in ancient china.
You know, I did read somewhere that the poles will be shifting on that fateful day in 2012. However, I think it's bullocks so what do I know?
10-22-2009, 11:34 PM
Mogi
Thanks for all of the info, Timekeeper :D!
10-22-2009, 11:56 PM
Lawr
Yeah, Timekeeper. Thanks for all of the information!
10-23-2009, 12:00 AM
Tavrobel
ITT: Thinkrage
10-23-2009, 09:29 AM
Timekeeper
No worries guys, it's fun learning all this stuff and then passing it on :D
Quote:
Originally Posted by Bunny
Quote:
Originally Posted by Kirobaito
Quote:
Originally Posted by Bunny
Ptolemy wasn't Egyptian.
That's unnecessarily splitting hairs and you know it. He was born, lived in, and died in Egypt.
These three things do not necessarily mean that he was Egyptian. He was a Roman citizen who had the misfortune of being born outside of Rome. By all standards then and now, he was still a Roman.
Born, lived, died in Egypt.
He was a Roman citizen of the Roman Empire.
The name Ptolemy is of Greek descent, and Ptolemy wrote in Ancient Greek.
"Although a Roman citizen, most scholars have concluded that ethnically, Ptolemy was a Greek, while some suggest that he was ethnically an Egyptian, though Hellenized (that of Greek culture)"
So yea take your pick...
I'd say he's Roman by association, Egyptian by location and Greek by culture.
10-23-2009, 09:53 AM
Bunny
Please stop citing Wikipedia as a source.
10-23-2009, 10:07 AM
Shlup
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mogi
Quote:
Originally Posted by ShlupQuack
What if my blue is your orange and your red is my manilla? What if we all really have the same favorite color but it's a different name to us?
WHAT IF?
I smurfing hate philosophizing.
That's all neat and stuff, and I think that's a very interesting thought, but I'm being serious.
I didn't say you weren't. Though if you were really serious, you would've posted in EoEO, where no one would be allowed to talk about pole reversals.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Timekeeper
To reach Understanding and Wisdom you must philosophize a bit.
It only counts if it's something worth thinking about.
10-23-2009, 11:17 AM
Timekeeper
Quote:
Originally Posted by Bunny
Please stop citing Wikipedia as a source.
You are right, it's a bad habit to get into. I was purely using it as a source in this case, as I found it summed up the other sites I had been reading better than I could. None the less I should be ashamed, my Ancient teacher would be furious!
Quote:
Originally Posted by ShlupQuack
Quote:
Originally Posted by Timekeeper
To reach Understanding and Wisdom you must philosophize a bit.
It only counts if it's something worth thinking about.
Who deems it worthy? I'd say an expert on the subject; someone who has put a good deal of thought into it.
10-23-2009, 04:59 PM
rubah
We can use wikipedia as a source for my lab class. It's awesome.
10-24-2009, 07:10 AM
Dignified Pauper
If you keep going North, sooner or later, you'll start going South.
10-24-2009, 07:23 AM
Tavrobel
Not if I'm rotating the reference axes, I won't.
10-24-2009, 02:51 PM
Dignified Pauper
YOU GOT ME THERE!
10-25-2009, 11:15 AM
Jiro
Directions are for those who don't know where they're going.
