I have a strange feeling that Kingdom Hearts appeals more to Square Enix fans than Disney fans, at least in the United States. While Kingdom Hearts is featured prominently in Japanese pop culture, it is largely underground in American pop culture. How can the franchise reach out to the mainstream Disney crowd?
Include more of the princesses and their castles. The castle is a Disney icon!
I think you would need to define the "Disney" audience. Disney's main appeal is that many of us grew up with it so we know the stories and series but it may not necessarily make us a fan. KH only appeals to RPG fans really, as the FF characters are terrible shadows of themselves and barely warrant a mention in the plots of the games. Its the original cast that has real development.
Personally, to appeal more to old school fans, we need either older films or song numbers. Why just let Xemnas speak about his heart? He could have a wonderful musical interlude. In all seriousness, I feel we need to define what a Disney fan is and then we can discuss what they would look for. I myself do like Disney and I actually do enjoy going through the various Disney worlds, the only issue I see is that the Disney characters themselves are static cause most of them are stuck within the constraints of their original films. Aladdin in KH2 was a bit weak cause the cast did not grow. We just got the KH version of the awful Aladdin 2.
I think Winnie the Pooh has been the most successful world cause its the only one that kinda grows and changes from game to game and I like the concept of Sora replacing Christopher Robin in the story. The other Disney worlds haven't fared as well with Little Mermaid rehashing its film plot (which was kinda done in the original game) though I do prefer it in KH2 cause for me, Little Mermaid was always more about the emotions and the music rather than a plot about good and evil so I prefer the campy singing.
Basically, I think they need a better writer ( kick Nojima to the curve and let Watanabe do it instead) and also bring in some people from Disney to help with the Disney worlds as well so we can generate original story content without compromising the original IP.
Yes, add in some AMERICAN Disney staff to the team. I was wondering this because I have seen Disney stores at numerous malls, and about 9/10 Disney fans don't know anything about Kingdom Hearts. In terms of promotion, they should have extensive coverage on the Disney Channel, and more Disney Channel actors should cast as character voices (they recently casted Meaghan Jette Martin of Camp Rock fame as Namine in Re: Chain of Memories and 358/2 Days), as well as Disney Channel characters Kim Possible and Jake Long (American Dragon), as Sora's allies, and perhaps more music from Disney Channel stars such as Miley Cyrus, Jonas Brothers, etc.... Perhaps the games can be developed jointly in both Japan and the United States; Square Enix U.S.A., Inc. can join forces with the domestic Disney studios in Los Angeles to develop and promote games, and with that, launch the franchise into mainstream Disney fandom.
On a side note, while many Square Enix fans disliked the Atlantica musical number in Kingdom Hearts II, keep in mind that they were just paying homage to traditional Disney movies. In addition, Sora also means "chirping songbird" in Native American languages (I found that on a cultural names website somewhere), which seems to tie in with his participation in the musical.
I agree that Disney has sorta mismanaged their role in the series. I do find it funny that Disney won't allow cosplayers to do any of their personal characters though...Quote:
Originally Posted by SuperMillionaire
Can't say I agree with you on this, I feel most of Disney's newer characters are pretty poor and annoying and I would prefer to Disney to stick to classic characters especially sense the newer characters would only appeal to a smaller fanbase.Quote:
as well as Disney Channel characters Kim Possible and Jake Long (American Dragon), as Sora's allies
Hell no, that music is utter :bou::bou::bou::bou:. I know cause I do have to listen to it every day. KH has great music, if we're going to add music from Disney, it should be restricted to music based from the Disney worlds and managed by KH's very talented composer.Quote:
perhaps more music from Disney Channel stars such as Miley Cyrus, Jonas Brothers, etc....
I would like to point out that Disney and SE did actually work together to make the first entry from both their gaming divisions. I just feel Disney should promote it as well as give a creative consultant to help with building the Disney worlds.Quote:
Perhaps the games can be developed jointly in both Japan and the United States; Square Enix U.S.A., Inc. can join forces with the domestic Disney studios in Los Angeles to develop and promote games, and with that, launch the franchise into mainstream Disney fandom.
I think that's a minor coincidence for Sora's name. Its Japanese meaning actually seems to be gaining more importance though...Quote:
On a side note, while many Square Enix fans disliked the Atlantica musical number in Kingdom Hearts II, keep in mind that they were just paying homage to traditional Disney movies. In addition, Sora also means "chirping songbird" in Native American languages (I found that on a cultural names website somewhere), which seems to tie in with his participation in the musical.
As for the singing, as I said, I enjoyed it. The Little Mermaid world was one of the more poorly designed worlds in KH1 and I felt KH2 did a better job representing it. I also like the fact they were willing to throw in new game mechanics and make the gameplay experience much more diverse. Besides... I love rhythm games. :D
If SE insists on keeping Aladdin, Hercules, and The Little Mermaid though, I feel they need to look towards the TV series that were made in order to expand the stories. Aladdin alone had a wonderful set of villains and stories that could be explored and fit nicely into the KH universe.
So basically it's only Square Enix using Disney characters, and Disney doesn't have much of a say in development... Disney USA should hook up with SE again to have more say in the development, and perhaps have extensive coverage of the game on the Disney Channel.
That's about the only part I agree with.They would probably sell more copies that way. They should just keep all the old school Disney worlds whenever they decide to make the third.Quote:
perhaps have extensive coverage of the game on the Disney Channel.
Why are we trying to appeal to mainstream Disney fans though? I don't get it. Gamers will play it because: a) It has FF characters; b) It is an RPG; c) It has Disney in it and they like Disney. I just don't see why non-gamers would go to all the effort of getting a console and Kingdom Hearts just to get a taste of Disney. They would be better off going and watching the movies again.
More sales would be nice though. Advertising on theDisney Channel sounds like a smart move.
From everything we talked about, I honestly don't like any work from Nojima at all. Perhaps this notion would be a good idea. Most of my least favourite Final Fantasy games were written by Nojima from what I understand.Quote:
Originally Posted by Wolf Kanno
Highly, STRENUOUSLY disagree with you here. The singing part of this was so embarrassingly stupid that I blushed and had to cover my face when playing through this part of the game [and yes, I was alone] to hide my laughing just because of how ridiculously retarded it was.Quote:
Originally Posted by Wolf Kanno
I truly hope that Square does not implement an idea like that ever again.
Well, Khalin, they were paying homage to classic Disney songs. Is it not common in Disney movies to sing?
And Jiro, 9/10 Disney fans have no idea that Kingdom Hearts even exists at all.
I say yes to more musicals! They don't have to accompany mini games, though; they can be just cut scenes.
I think the Atlantica songs in KHII are cute!
Sure, why not; they programmed Tron to sing and dance in KH2. Perhaps NOT High School Musical, since that wouldn't make any sense in KH, but at least a few more songs sung by the characters would be great.
Just because it's common doesn't mean it's good. I could never stand those stupid songs as a kid, and I always ended up hitting either "Mute" or "Fast Forward" whenever that nonsense came up. My mom would always laugh at me when I tried to rush past the songs.Quote:
Originally Posted by SuperMillionaire
My favourite Disney movie didn't have those kinds of songs.
Music might be the most important component of Disney films, though, and most Disney fans love the songs, I think!
Which Disney movie was that?Quote:
Originally Posted by KhalinJust because it's common doesn't mean it's good. I could never stand those stupid songs as a kid, and I always ended up hitting either "Mute" or "Fast Forward" whenever that nonsense came up. My mom would always laugh at me when I tried to rush past the songs.Quote:
Originally Posted by SuperMillionaire
My favourite Disney movie didn't have those kinds of songs.
Yes, most definitely, they do, and putting in that Atlantica musical was a homage to that.Quote:
Originally Posted by Marshall Banana
I find that hard to see. I always hated the stupid songs in all of the Disney movies, with the exception of a very special few.Quote:
Originally Posted by Marshall Banana
Sleeping Beauty. It was my favourite Disney movie growing up as a kid. It did have one song in it that was vocalized by the main characters, but it was done in a much more subtle manner than how most songs are in Disney movies. The rest of the songs in Sleeping Beauty were done by Chorus [? Not sure if that's the proper word to use for it], which never bothered me at all.Quote:
Originally Posted by SuperMillionaire
Example: YouTube - WaltDisneyCartoons - Songs - Sleeping Beauty (The gifts of beauty and song)
That's right I can't get enough of these.Quote:
Originally Posted by SuperMillionaireWhich Disney movie was that?Quote:
Originally Posted by KhalinJust because it's common doesn't mean it's good. I could never stand those stupid songs as a kid, and I always ended up hitting either "Mute" or "Fast Forward" whenever that nonsense came up. My mom would always laugh at me when I tried to rush past the songs.Quote:
Originally Posted by SuperMillionaire
My favourite Disney movie didn't have those kinds of songs.
Yes, most definitely, they do, and putting in that Atlantica musical was a homage to that.Quote:
Originally Posted by Marshall Banana
YouTube - The Hunchback of Notre Dame (Hellfire)
YouTube - Lion King - Circle of Life
YouTube - Aladdin & Jasmine - A Whole New World
The problem with attempting to appeal to mainstream Disney fans lies in the fact that it's almost impossible to do at this point without blatant rehashing of the movie plots which would likely result in an absolute bastardization of any continuity the games have going for them.
Jiro has it right. Kingdom Hearts has never been directed at the average Disney fan. It's target demographic is largely RPG (specifically Final Fantasy) fans who grew up with Kingdom Hearts. I remember when the first game came out, my 7-year-old neighbor got it and couldn't even make it past Traverse Town.
Any effort to try and placate Disney fans at this point is too little far too late.
Well then how do you explain the Atlantica musical in KH2? That was a homage to mainstream Disney movies. And perhaps they can also go to the Disney Channel for extra promotion. And the very first Kingdom Hearts WAS aimed at the average Disney fan.
And for further promotion, put a promotional flyer in every Disney DVD release.
I call it an awkward rehash of the exact same plot we played through in the original Kingdom Hearts. It succeeded (I use the term loosely) as a mini game but would not function nearly as effectively if it became a staple of the series. An homage is typically just a respectful tip-of-the-hat. Making the whole game revolve around them would destroy any merit Kingdom Hearts might have.Quote:
Originally Posted by SuperMillionaire
I never said they couldn't. That's about as far as I'm willing to go with it. At any rate, I do recall around Kingdom Hearts 2's release seeing some ads for the game on a bunch of different channels. Pushing it on the Disney Channel wouldn't hurt at all, but that's more of an advertising move and doesn't have significant bearing on the game's content (read: I don't give a smurf how they advertise the game).Quote:
And perhaps they can also go to the Disney Channel for extra promotion.
If you say so. I'm of the opinion that Squaresoft played a lot more on the inclusion of the Final Fantasy cameos to develop its target audience than it did on the Disney aspects. If the game was really about Disney, we wouldn't have the superficial Final Fantasy characters. Disney fans have always been Kingdom Hearts' secondary demographic.Quote:
And the very first Kingdom Hearts WAS aimed at the average Disney fan.
Sure. But that also falls under advertising, and as such I don't really care how they do it.Quote:
And for further promotion, put a promotional flyer in every Disney DVD release.
I feel if you want more Disney involvement and more honest treatment of the Disney stories without warping them to a greater over-arching story's purposes, go pick up a Disney game. The inclusion of both Disney and Final Fantasy in Kingdom Hearts has always seemed like a bit of an afterthought to me since the core of the game's plot is in the original worlds (Destiny Islands, Traverse Town, Hallow Bastion, and
End of the World in KH and Twilight Town, Hallow Bastion, and the World That Never Was in KH2). The Disney and Final Fantasy additions have always seemed lackluster additions which only scratch the surface, and the interesting parts of the games are the original KH worlds and characters.
I don't think it's necessary to reproduce the plots of Disney films. The first game doesn't, really, save for a few events. I prefer that, too, because the recreations in KHII are bad. Why is Ursula even in the sequel?! Maybe Eric shouldn't be in the sequel either; it's enough for Ariel, Flounder, and Sebastian to just sing cute songs together. I don't appreciate the storytelling aspect of Atlantica (or the other worlds, I guess) at all.
I think the way they reproduced the plot of disney films in KH 2 was appauling as you either a) saw the film and all you get is a ridiculus sumary of the movie with henchman replaced with heartless and no awesome music, or b) you didnt see the film and just get massive spoilers.
If they want to apeal to disney fans, rehashing plot isnt the way to do it, generally if youve seen a disney movie youve watched it quite a few times, what they want is something new, disney fans want to see how their favourite characters would deal with new situations and new problems and more of that clever characterisation weve grown to love.
I thought they were supposed to be equal, since this was a joint project. All-Square and no Disney?Quote:
Disney fans have always been Kingdom Hearts' secondary demographic.
Pretty much. It's been a very imbalanced partnership since the very beginning. Aside from Donald, Goofy, and Mickey, there are no Disney characters with any significant roles, and the three are all very replaceable in the plot (in much the same way that the Final Fantasy characters are replaceable). The only characters in Kingdom Hearts who have any significant bearing on the plot are Sora, Riku, Kairi, Ansem, and the cast of Nobodies.Quote:
Originally Posted by SuperMillionaire
Well then, perhaps Disney can make alternate versions for their main fanbase...?
I'd really rather they just make their own games and leave Kingdom Hearts to Square Enix.
Then perhaps take out all the Disney characters?
KH - Disney = Final FantasyQuote:
Originally Posted by SuperMillionaire
I don't mind having the Disney characters in Kingdom Hearts, I just don't think that making each world a very large focus of the game would be beneficial to the series as a whole. I think the best Disney characters in the game (Donald, Goofy, Mickey, Jiminy, Pete and Maleficent) are the ones who aren't bound to Disney canon.
The best way to make Disney characters important to the story is to give them a little more freedom beyond Disney canon. The problem with a large part of the Disney cast is that they're merely shadows of their own characters as a result of confining them to their own world. At least the Final Fantasy characters are given an individual identity (however slight) beyond their Final Fantasy counterparts. Doing the same for more of the Disney characters would be beneficial to the series as a whole.
Didn't Disney make a rule with SE that those characters can't leave their own worlds? I would certainly be nice if they could leave their worlds, though.
It's possible that Disney did make such a deal. I find it rather disappointing, though, since it limits a majority of the Disney cast to peripheral roles without any significant impact on the overall plot. The solution may then be to bring in more characters like Donald, Goofy, Mickey, and Pete who have existence in Disney canon outside of single movies.
Don't forget the Princesses of Heart...Quote:
Originally Posted by Ouch!
Who have a collective total of how many lines? They're more plot devices than characters.Quote:
Originally Posted by The White Wizard of FynnDon't forget the Princesses of Heart...Quote:
Originally Posted by Ouch!
Hey now, they get some more promising roles in BBS. At least Aurora, Snow White, and Cinderella... ;)
Personally, I do like the Disney worlds when they play into the theme of the game. I've been replaying Chain of Memories and have been a bit pleased with how the theme of memory actually carries over to each of the Disney worlds.
I do feel they need to do more with the Disney characters to build onto the overall story and that is why I feel they need an adviser from Disney to help the writing staff so they can rest easy and do more with them.
Aye, but I don't see it being any larger of a role than say Jasmine had in KH1. She functioned within her own world, but as soon as she was taken away, she became a plot device.Quote:
Originally Posted by Wolf Kanno
This seems a reasonable suggestion as long as it's used to expand what you can do with them instead of being further limiting.Quote:
I do feel they need to do more with the Disney characters to build onto the overall story and that is why I feel they need an adviser from Disney to help the writing staff so they can rest easy and do more with them.
Yes, more AMERICAN Disney staff to work with the Japanese staff...
Now that you bring it up, the logistics of language barriers seems like that would really just make the whole process messier than it's worth.Quote:
Originally Posted by SuperMillionaire
Well, I'm sure they can bring in an English/Japanese translation-interpreter, right? And perhaps some of the staff may also be fluent in English too...Quote:
Originally Posted by Ouch!Now that you bring it up, the logistics of language barriers seems like that would really just make the whole process messier than it's worth.Quote:
Originally Posted by SuperMillionaire
Less convoluted/ contrived storylines. I'd also like a more Western art-style. *shrugs*
No way.Quote:
Originally Posted by Ouch!
If KH had started and didn't originally have Disney in, I probably would have overlooked it (like I do with most SE projects that arn't FF). I think most of the time the Disney themes fit in very well with the story and it's all handled very well.
If they take out Donald, Goofy, and Mickey as main characters in KH3 and replace them with Riku and Kairi (like them replacing Donald and Goofy as your sidekicks) then I'll be very very annoyed. The Disney Three are excellent characters, probably my favourates.
I know Malificent was given less of a role in KH2 than 1, but I didn't mind since I thought the Organization XIII were ok. Then again, if they push her (and Pete) back even more in KH3 then I'll be even more annoyed.
I have a feeling these things will happen though, and it'll turn even more in to a SE game than Disney. I'll be sorry to see that, it'll just turn into a typical SE game then. Disney gives it that unique and original edge.
I agree with you completely. To me, it's more SE than Disney, and that needs to change if they want to broaden their fanbase.Quote:
Originally Posted by CropNo way.Quote:
Originally Posted by Ouch!
If KH had started and didn't originally have Disney in, I probably would have overlooked it (like I do with most SE projects that arn't FF). I think most of the time the Disney themes fit in very well with the story and it's all handled very well.
If they take out Donald, Goofy, and Mickey as main characters in KH3 and replace them with Riku and Kairi (like them replacing Donald and Goofy as your sidekicks) then I'll be very very annoyed. The Disney Three are excellent characters, probably my favourates.
I know Malificent was given less of a role in KH2 than 1, but I didn't mind since I thought the Organization XIII were ok. Then again, if they push her (and Pete) back even more in KH3 then I'll be even more annoyed.
I have a feeling these things will happen though, and it'll turn even more in to a SE game than Disney. I'll be sorry to see that, it'll just turn into a typical SE game then. Disney gives it that unique and original edge.
I also agree with most of you guys; Square Enix does go hand in hand with Disney very well.
Coming to the actual issue of this thread.. Here in Germany it appears to be the opposite: Square Enix fans dislike the series while morely Disney fans do hype the series. This often leads to discussions which debate statements like "Kingdom Hearts should be having/have had more Disney in it" or "The Disney characters should be getting a more important role".
I personally do like the series the way they are, the Square Enixish allotment and the Disneyish allotment are well-balanced, the story line also focuses enough Disney characters (Mickey, Donald, Goofy, Maleficent and so on).
greeetings
You misinterpreted my statement. I didn't mean that Disney should be absolutely removed from Kingdom Hearts; I simply meant that Disney shouldn't restrict what Square Enix plans to do with the Disney characters too much. As I understand it, the Disney worlds are very separate as a result of Disney insisting that there be no bleed over between the different movies. I think this kind of meddling really limits the extent to which the Disney characters can be effectively utilized.Quote:
Originally Posted by CropNo way.Quote:
Originally Posted by Ouch!
If KH had started and didn't originally have Disney in, I probably would have overlooked it (like I do with most SE projects that arn't FF). I think most of the time the Disney themes fit in very well with the story and it's all handled very well.
If they take out Donald, Goofy, and Mickey as main characters in KH3 and replace them with Riku and Kairi (like them replacing Donald and Goofy as your sidekicks) then I'll be very very annoyed. The Disney Three are excellent characters, probably my favourates.
I know Malificent was given less of a role in KH2 than 1, but I didn't mind since I thought the Organization XIII were ok. Then again, if they push her (and Pete) back even more in KH3 then I'll be even more annoyed.
I have a feeling these things will happen though, and it'll turn even more in to a SE game than Disney. I'll be sorry to see that, it'll just turn into a typical SE game then. Disney gives it that unique and original edge.
Ultimately, the main plot of Kingdom Hearts is a Square Enix creation--not a Disney one. I have faith that if Disney loosened their grip and bit and gave SE a little more freedom, they could make Disney a much more integral and effective part of the story. What makes Final Fantasy characters forgivable in Kingdom Hearts is that they have a Kingdom Hearts identity. Donald, Goofy, and Mickey are interesting because they have a role in the KH universe which is distinct from their other roles. The other Disney characters could be strengthened by having a similarly enhanced role.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ouch!You misinterpreted my statement. I didn't mean that Disney should be absolutely removed from Kingdom Hearts; I simply meant that Disney shouldn't restrict what Square Enix plans to do with the Disney characters too much. As I understand it, the Disney worlds are very separate as a result of Disney insisting that there be no bleed over between the different movies. I think this kind of meddling really limits the extent to which the Disney characters can be effectively utilized.Quote:
Originally Posted by CropNo way.Quote:
Originally Posted by Ouch!
If KH had started and didn't originally have Disney in, I probably would have overlooked it (like I do with most SE projects that arn't FF). I think most of the time the Disney themes fit in very well with the story and it's all handled very well.
If they take out Donald, Goofy, and Mickey as main characters in KH3 and replace them with Riku and Kairi (like them replacing Donald and Goofy as your sidekicks) then I'll be very very annoyed. The Disney Three are excellent characters, probably my favourates.
I know Malificent was given less of a role in KH2 than 1, but I didn't mind since I thought the Organization XIII were ok. Then again, if they push her (and Pete) back even more in KH3 then I'll be even more annoyed.
I have a feeling these things will happen though, and it'll turn even more in to a SE game than Disney. I'll be sorry to see that, it'll just turn into a typical SE game then. Disney gives it that unique and original edge.
Ultimately, the main plot of Kingdom Hearts is a Square Enix creation--not a Disney one. I have faith that if Disney loosened their grip and bit and gave SE a little more freedom, they could make Disney a much more integral and effective part of the story. What makes Final Fantasy characters forgivable in Kingdom Hearts is that they have a Kingdom Hearts identity. Donald, Goofy, and Mickey are interesting because they have a role in the KH universe which is distinct from their other roles. The other Disney characters could be strengthened by having a similarly enhanced role.
Ah, I see what you mean now in your last post, my mistake.
That IS a good idea, but how far would it go? I mean, it would be great mixing some of the Disney characters with other worlds and moving them into the story, but when you think about all the worlds there are would it not just risk going OTT and confusing - since it would be mixed in with the other non Disney characters in the story?
Another thing (if they did decide to cross over Disney worlds) is with Mickey, Donald, and Goofy being in the main story it makes sence (they are the "symbols" of Disney) but how would they choose which other Disney characters would be more involved in the story and get more development?
FYI, these are genuine questions. I'm curious to know how you think it would be done best.
The problem with the current model is that sooner or later (likely sooner), we're going to be running out of Disney movies to draw from. Kingdom Hearts 2 already had a lot of the crappy sequel stuff going on, and I'd really rather not continue to see it move in that direction.
Obviously there's still some movies to draw from that could be interesting, but on the whole, I'd like to see more integration of Disney and Square Enix. There are plenty of other characters besides the other ones we've already met in the series. There's also a lot of TV shows to draw from (Darkwing Duck would be epic win, among others).
If they want to keep recycling existing worlds, I think it would be time to start exploring original story lines for the worlds. This would allow for the use of Disney favorites while remaining contained to their own worlds. Most importantly, it would also allow the Disney worlds to feel less disjointed from the main narrative as it would allow the worlds' plots to be relevant to what's going on in the overarching plot.
There's a general question I have, since Disney has bought up Pixar and Marvel, is it possible we are going to meet some of these characters in the upcoming games? (After Birth by Sleep, if at all)
It's not that I wanted it or that I didn't, I'd only like to know!
I think the game should also be partially developed here in the United States, instead of fully in Japan.
I'd say it might make Disney rescind its declaration that we'll never see Pixar, but I wouldn't be betting on Marvel any time soon.Quote:
Originally Posted by P4ine
Having two separate development teams working on the same game from two different countries seems like an absolute nightmare to me, to be completely honest.Quote:
Originally Posted by SuperMillionaire
Do you know how insanely awesome it would be if Deadpool were to show up in Kingdom hearts?
What would make you say that? We are trying to appeal to mainstream Disney fans, and I mean AMERICAN Disney fans, right? Perhaps the SE American subsidiary, Square Enix, Inc. , should develop the game with American Disney staff...Quote:
Originally Posted by Ouch!
The Japanese are interested in Japanese fans, and Americans are just an added bonus. Seriously, the first thing they consider is their own country, which is not so hard to imagine. Don't forget that there are a lot of Disney fans in Japan as well (which is one of the main reasons KH even exists).Quote:
Originally Posted by SuperMillionaireWhat would make you say that? We are trying to appeal to mainstream Disney fans, and I mean AMERICAN Disney fans, right? Perhaps the SE American subsidiary, Square Enix, Inc. , should develop the game with American Disney staff...Quote:
Originally Posted by Ouch!
Japanese anime and video games are largely underground in America. Why is it that American entertainment is very popular in Japan but not the other way around as well?Quote:
Originally Posted by The White Wizard of FynnThe Japanese are interested in Japanese fans, and Americans are just an added bonus. Seriously, the first thing they consider is their own country, which is not so hard to imagine. Don't forget that there are a lot of Disney fans in Japan as well (which is one of the main reasons KH even exists).Quote:
Originally Posted by SuperMillionaireWhat would make you say that? We are trying to appeal to mainstream Disney fans, and I mean AMERICAN Disney fans, right? Perhaps the SE American subsidiary, Square Enix, Inc. , should develop the game with American Disney staff...Quote:
Originally Posted by Ouch!
What bizarro world are you living in? Japanese video games and anime are hardly underground by any standard. Try and find someone under the age of 30 unfamiliar with anime. Hell, almost everyone I know grew up watching Dragon Ball Z, and a great many of them have gone on to watch at least a few other shows. You must be taking crazy pills.Quote:
Originally Posted by SuperMillionaireJapanese anime and video games are largely underground in America. Why is it that American entertainment is very popular in Japan but not the other way around as well?Quote:
Originally Posted by The White Wizard of FynnThe Japanese are interested in Japanese fans, and Americans are just an added bonus. Seriously, the first thing they consider is their own country, which is not so hard to imagine. Don't forget that there are a lot of Disney fans in Japan as well (which is one of the main reasons KH even exists).Quote:
Originally Posted by SuperMillionaireWhat would make you say that? We are trying to appeal to mainstream Disney fans, and I mean AMERICAN Disney fans, right? Perhaps the SE American subsidiary, Square Enix, Inc. , should develop the game with American Disney staff...Quote:
Originally Posted by Ouch!
Also, if you want to completely screw up Kingdom Hearts, go ahead and tear it away for Nomura and give it to a completely new development team in America. I mean, I don't have a lot of faith in the guy to make complete sense, but I have even less faith in giving the project to someone else to try and figure out what the hell was going on in his head.
It's great to have all these solutions, but they're useless conjecture unless they're at least based in some form of reality.
Really let's not touch the whole American/Japanese thing. You should have learned a long time ago from your surnames thread that such is an argument that's not going to be productive. Square Enix is a Japanese video game company. The game is a creation of the mind of a Japanese man. It is designed and programmed by a team of Japanese individuals. Trying to Americanize it in the seventh installment in the series is just silly.
When I said underground, I meant "not popular in mainstream American pop culture." You don't see much talk about video games and animes in entertainment guides alongside American or British-made movies, music, TV shows, etc. If you read Entertainment Magazine orr watch any entertainment showcase shows such as TV Guide, Access Hollywood, Extra, Showbiz Tonight, etc, you won't see ANYTHING related to video games. For some strange reason, video games and not frequently mentioned in Hollywood here in the United States, while all the Hollywood stuff we make here is frequently mentioned in Japan; the entertainment popularity exchange ratio is not equal! If everything we have here is wildly popular in Japanese pop culture, why not the other way around as well?!Quote:
Originally Posted by Ouch!What bizarro world are you living in? Japanese video games and anime are hardly underground by any standard. Try and find someone under the age of 30 unfamiliar with anime. Hell, almost everyone I know grew up watching Dragon Ball Z, and a great many of them have gone on to watch at least a few other shows. You must be taking crazy pills.Quote:
Originally Posted by SuperMillionaireJapanese anime and video games are largely underground in America. Why is it that American entertainment is very popular in Japan but not the other way around as well?Quote:
Originally Posted by The White Wizard of FynnThe Japanese are interested in Japanese fans, and Americans are just an added bonus. Seriously, the first thing they consider is their own country, which is not so hard to imagine. Don't forget that there are a lot of Disney fans in Japan as well (which is one of the main reasons KH even exists).Quote:
Originally Posted by SuperMillionaireWhat would make you say that? We are trying to appeal to mainstream Disney fans, and I mean AMERICAN Disney fans, right? Perhaps the SE American subsidiary, Square Enix, Inc. , should develop the game with American Disney staff...Quote:
Originally Posted by Ouch!
Also, if you want to completely screw up Kingdom Hearts, go ahead and tear it away for Nomura and give it to a completely new development team in America. I mean, I don't have a lot of faith in the guy to make complete sense, but I have even less faith in giving the project to someone else to try and figure out what the hell was going on in his head.
It's great to have all these solutions, but they're useless conjecture unless they're at least based in some form of reality.
Really let's not touch the whole American/Japanese thing. You should have learned a long time ago from your surnames thread that such is an argument that's not going to be productive. Square Enix is a Japanese video game company. The game is a creation of the mind of a Japanese man. It is designed and programmed by a team of Japanese individuals. Trying to Americanize it in the seventh installment in the series is just silly.
You're either still living in that crazy bizarro world or you're just ignorant to everything going on around you. Hollywood doesn't talk about anime or video games? Have you completely missed the growing trend of adapting anime and video games into Blockbuster movies? What about Dragon Ball: Evolution? How about Astroboy? Video game adaptations have been going on even longer: Resident Evil? Tomb Raider? Hell, go back to Super Mario in the early 90s.Quote:
Originally Posted by SuperMillionaire
Anime isn't underground anymore, and it hasn't been since the mid-90s. On top of that, video games are about as close to the new shared culture that our generation is ever going to get. Video game movies, even :bou::bou::bou::bou:ty ones, and anime movies (especially :bou::bou::bou::bou:ty ones) make huge blockbuster hits. If that's not indicative of their popularity, I don't know what is.
Also, of course the popularity exchange isn't equal. America arguably exerts a greater pop culture influence over any other country in the world. I don't know why you would ever expect it to be absolutely equal, but it's not quite as dismal as you seem to think. That said, Japanese media hasn't become mainstream in other nations until maybe two decades ago if you want to be generous. Disney has been exerting an effect world wide for much, much longer. It's an issue of catch-up, and Japan, as far as I can tell, has done a very good job of pushing it's culture worldwide in the past two decades.
I think your problem is that you're actually using things like Entertainment Magazine, Access Hollywood, etc. as indicative of what's currently "in" in American pop culture. They don't have a freaking clue what's going on.
True, but it's still not enough to be mentioned on entertainment guide shows... Perhaps they should make a video game segment for wider promotion, so that video games can expand their fanbases... If SE and other Japanese video game companies want to expand their fanbases, they need to target the mainstream crowd and promote their entertainment more aggressively, like American-made movies, tv shows, and music are.Quote:
Originally Posted by Ouch!You're either still living in that crazy bizarro world or you're just ignorant to everything going on around you. Hollywood doesn't talk about anime or video games? Have you completely missed the growing trend of adapting anime and video games into Blockbuster movies? What about Dragon Ball: Evolution? How about Astroboy? Video game adaptations have been going on even longer: Resident Evil? Tomb Raider? Hell, go back to Super Mario in the early 90s.Quote:
Originally Posted by SuperMillionaire
Anime isn't underground anymore, and it hasn't been since the mid-90s. On top of that, video games are about as close to the new shared culture that our generation is ever going to get. Video game movies, even :bou::bou::bou::bou:ty ones, and anime movies (especially :bou::bou::bou::bou:ty ones) make huge blockbuster hits. If that's not indicative of their popularity, I don't know what is.
Also, of course the popularity exchange isn't equal. America arguably exerts a greater pop culture influence over any other country in the world. I don't know why you would ever expect it to be absolutely equal, but it's not quite as dismal as you seem to think. That said, Japanese media hasn't become mainstream in other nations until maybe two decades ago if you want to be generous. Disney has been exerting an effect world wide for much, much longer. It's an issue of catch-up, and Japan, as far as I can tell, has done a very good job of pushing it's culture worldwide in the past two decades.
I think your problem is that you're actually using things like Entertainment Magazine, Access Hollywood, etc. as indicative of what's currently "in" in American pop culture. They don't have a freaking clue what's going on.
Given that almost everyone under the age of 25 plays video games, I really think you're overestimating how significantly they need to expand their market. Video games are about as mainstream as they're going to get, especially since the release of the Nintendo Wii. You're looking to television shows dedicated to movies as indicative of the success of video games. Frankly, that's just dumb. Want to see news on games? Watch G4. Want to read about video games? Don't go to Entertainment Weekly, go pick up EGM, Game Informer, Xbox Magazine, PlayStation Magazine, etc. Want reviews? Go to any of the numerous YouTube channels devoted to it or any of the numerous websites dedicated to video game news. Oh hell, just go online. Video games are all over the internet. You're just looking in the wrong places, chief.
Okay... but still, 9/10 American and Western Disney fans don't know that Kingdom Hearts even exists!
Disney fans are a secondary demographic. The primary demographic is gamers. I don't know about you, but when I think the typical Disney fan, my mind is going to the age group of maybe 2-10. Beyond that point, I remember it becoming in vogue to dislike Disney for being childish until your peers get over that kind of adolescent crap. I don't know about you, but I don't know many kids in that age range who were capable of getting very far in the first game. It's not exactly a kid-friendly title. The second one was a lot easier (a lot easier), but the platforming elements and a lot of the bosses through the latter half of the original game would make it a nightmare to a lot of people.
As far as I can tell, Kingdom Hearts is a "Oh hey, it's got Disney, that's cool!" kind of thing, but I don't think the intention was ever to market a game to Disney fans. It's marketing a game to gamers who are also Disney fans.
I think you're thinking about the Disney Princess franchise.Quote:
Originally Posted by Ouch!
Aye, and the Disney Princess franchise is where Kingdom Hearts seems to be a drawing a majority of its material, so that doesn't really change an awful lot.Quote:
Originally Posted by Marshall BananaI think you're thinking about the Disney Princess franchise.Quote:
Originally Posted by Ouch!
Too much Square Enix and not enough Disney? I see very few references of mentions of this franchise in mainstream Disney galleries. Why did Square Enix make the franchise so secular? It's supposed to be East meets West, which means half-East and half-West, but Kingdom Hearts has too much East and not enough West!Quote:
Originally Posted by Ouch!
Well, I'm certainly made happy by the screenshots I saw of Cinderella and Snow White from Birth by Sleep! Most of the characters who join Sora's party in I and II are male characters, though. It seems.Quote:
Originally Posted by Ouch!Aye, and the Disney Princess franchise is where Kingdom Hearts seems to be a drawing a majority of its material, so that doesn't really change an awful lot.Quote:
Originally Posted by Marshall BananaI think you're thinking about the Disney Princess franchise.Quote:
Originally Posted by Ouch!
I just meant that most of the movies they've featured prominently are part of that franchise and that directed age group.
I'm also glad they're bringing in Snow White and Cinderella since those characters had been featured in the series without their worlds. I'm interested to see how Malificient becomes involved in all of this mess since she's an example of one of the Disney characters I think actually has a good role in the series.
I'm not saying that Square Enix should alienate their core audience, which is indeed Japanese, but I still think that they need to take American audiences into consideration to equally appeal to both. I would say that the company should use its North American subsidiary, Square Enix, Inc., to put some touches of American pop culture on the localizations.
I'd also like to see more promotion of Kingdom Hearts on the Disney Channel and in the Disney Magazine, as well as promos for it in DVD releases of Disney movies and TV shows.
Kingdom Hearts is a smashing success in the US and Europe anyway, so why ameriicanize it? Its irreplaceable atmosphere would change dramatically...Quote:
Originally Posted by SuperMillionaire
I've no idea about Disney Magazine (but lol2print advertising), but I know there were a bunch of advertisements on the Disney Channel when Kingdom Hearts 2 came out. Aside from having the standard 30 second ad, they had an in-depth look thing. I'm not sure if they're doing that for 358/2 Days, but I'm pretty sure I've seen a Days ad on other channels. I don't think promotion is an issue at all.Quote:
Originally Posted by SuperMillionaire
American pop culture references would hurt my insides so much. The only game series I've ever see do that effectively in a localization is the Ace Attorney series. I think the localization is just fine as it is. It's got loads of Disney stuff already it doesn't really need to be Americanized any more than it already is by sheer virtue of Disney involvement.
I'm not saying that SE of America should make drastic changes to the storyline, but just put a few American pop culture references in there, to widen its appeal among Disney fans. Seriously, 9/10 Disney fans don't even have a clue what Kingdom Hearts is. I've gone to numerous Disney stores in several malls, and I NEVER see any Kingdom Hearts-related merchandise!
They're probably not pushing Kingdom Hearts merchandise in Disney stores because the average person walking into a Disney store isn't there to buy video games.Quote:
Originally Posted by SuperMillionaire
That said, I guess I have just one question: why is it such a big deal that 9/10 of Disney fans don't even have a clue what KH is? Disney is such a huge corporation, and their customers span across various demographics. Why is it a concern that Kingdom Hearts isn't a recognizable franchise for all Disney fans? It's a freaking huge success amongst Disney fans who play video games, and that's really all that matters. Why worry about the people who don't play video games? That's like worrying about selling a book to someone who doesn't like to read.
Well then, perhaps an American-made TV series developed by Disney in association with Square Enix USA, and then maybe that will pull in more fans who want to play the games?Quote:
Originally Posted by Ouch!They're probably not pushing Kingdom Hearts merchandise in Disney stores because the average person walking into a Disney store isn't there to buy video games.Quote:
Originally Posted by SuperMillionaire
That said, I guess I have just one question: why is it such a big deal that 9/10 of Disney fans don't even have a clue what KH is? Disney is such a huge corporation, and their customers span across various demographics. Why is it a concern that Kingdom Hearts isn't a recognizable franchise for all Disney fans? It's a freaking huge success amongst Disney fans who play video games, and that's really all that matters. Why worry about the people who don't play video games? That's like worrying about selling a book to someone who doesn't like to read.
No. Just no. It's enough that there is a manga and american anime-style series (can't see another way they'd try to pull it) are simply abysmal.Quote:
Originally Posted by SuperMillionaireWell then, perhaps an American-made TV series developed by Disney in association with Square Enix USA, and then maybe that will pull in more fans who want to play the games?Quote:
Originally Posted by Ouch!They're probably not pushing Kingdom Hearts merchandise in Disney stores because the average person walking into a Disney store isn't there to buy video games.Quote:
Originally Posted by SuperMillionaire
That said, I guess I have just one question: why is it such a big deal that 9/10 of Disney fans don't even have a clue what KH is? Disney is such a huge corporation, and their customers span across various demographics. Why is it a concern that Kingdom Hearts isn't a recognizable franchise for all Disney fans? It's a freaking huge success amongst Disney fans who play video games, and that's really all that matters. Why worry about the people who don't play video games? That's like worrying about selling a book to someone who doesn't like to read.
I still don't understand why you think this is a problem. If someone doesn't know what Kingdom Hearts is they're probably not gamers and therefore not part of its target demographic. I don't get why you seem to think it's absolutely necessary to try and expand this demographic in all these (quite frankly silly) ways. Kingdom Hearts isn't like Wii Sports. It's not designed to be picked up and played by anyone and everyone with a minimal learning curve. It's advertised to gamers who like Disney, not all Disney fans everywhere. I don't see why this is an issue.Quote:
Originally Posted by SuperMillionaire
Well, can you please find me some AMERICAN Disney sites that mention the Kingdom Hearts franchise? I know there's a Japanese Disney site, but is there an AMERICAN site?Quote:
Originally Posted by Ouch!I still don't understand why you think this is a problem. If someone doesn't know what Kingdom Hearts is they're probably not gamers and therefore not part of its target demographic. I don't get why you seem to think it's absolutely necessary to try and expand this demographic in all these (quite frankly silly) ways. Kingdom Hearts isn't like Wii Sports. It's not designed to be picked up and played by anyone and everyone with a minimal learning curve. It's advertised to gamers who like Disney, not all Disney fans everywhere. I don't see why this is an issue.Quote:
Originally Posted by SuperMillionaire
You'd probably be hard pressed to find one, but again, is that really a problem? I've never heard of a gamer who frequents a Disney site. It would be wasted add space, as it's better left for adds that appeal to the kind of people who frequent Disney websites, which is not the target of Kingdom Hearts.Quote:
Originally Posted by SuperMillionaireWell, can you please find me some AMERICAN Disney sites that mention the Kingdom Hearts franchise? I know there's a Japanese Disney site, but is there an AMERICAN site?Quote:
Originally Posted by Ouch!I still don't understand why you think this is a problem. If someone doesn't know what Kingdom Hearts is they're probably not gamers and therefore not part of its target demographic. I don't get why you seem to think it's absolutely necessary to try and expand this demographic in all these (quite frankly silly) ways. Kingdom Hearts isn't like Wii Sports. It's not designed to be picked up and played by anyone and everyone with a minimal learning curve. It's advertised to gamers who like Disney, not all Disney fans everywhere. I don't see why this is an issue.Quote:
Originally Posted by SuperMillionaire
You see Kingdom Hearts advertising in places that attract gamers, not Disney fans. Hell, most people who picked up Kingdom Hearts don't even watch Disney anymore, cause all the characters are from a past era.
Most kids today, the people who frequent Disney sites, probably don't give a toss about Mickey, Donald, and Goofy. You'd have to make current games mainline newer Disney Characters.
And thats just going to alienate the modern day fans away.
So should they target the generation that grew up with those characters? What good would that do? Most of them have grown past Disney, and aren't going to be enticed by them dragging these characters up from the past. So thats a wasted target audience.
The people Kingdom hearts appeals two are the following: Gamers who happen to have enjoyed old school Disney, RPG/Action RPG fans, and Square Enix fans.
And guess what? They heavily advertise to all these groups through the Sqaure Enix site, IGN, Gametrailers, and other places Gamers frequent. advertising to any other group of people for this game would be outright silly and a complete waste of corporate funds.
It would be like trying to sell training wheels to Lance Armstrong.
It's not like that in Japan; it's all the buzz over there among Japanese Disney fans, but why not the same for AMERICAN Disney fans? American Square Enix fans are largely secular, and not in the mainstream.Quote:
Originally Posted by NeoCrackerYou'd probably be hard pressed to find one, but again, is that really a problem? I've never heard of a gamer who frequents a Disney site. It would be wasted add space, as it's better left for adds that appeal to the kind of people who frequent Disney websites, which is not the target of Kingdom Hearts.Quote:
Originally Posted by SuperMillionaireWell, can you please find me some AMERICAN Disney sites that mention the Kingdom Hearts franchise? I know there's a Japanese Disney site, but is there an AMERICAN site?Quote:
Originally Posted by Ouch!I still don't understand why you think this is a problem. If someone doesn't know what Kingdom Hearts is they're probably not gamers and therefore not part of its target demographic. I don't get why you seem to think it's absolutely necessary to try and expand this demographic in all these (quite frankly silly) ways. Kingdom Hearts isn't like Wii Sports. It's not designed to be picked up and played by anyone and everyone with a minimal learning curve. It's advertised to gamers who like Disney, not all Disney fans everywhere. I don't see why this is an issue.Quote:
Originally Posted by SuperMillionaire
You see Kingdom Hearts advertising in places that attract gamers, not Disney fans. Hell, most people who picked up Kingdom Hearts don't even watch Disney anymore, cause all the characters are from a past era.
Most kids today, the people who frequent Disney sites, probably don't give a toss about Mickey, Donald, and Goofy. You'd have to make current games mainline newer Disney Characters.
And thats just going to alienate the modern day fans away.
So should they target the generation that grew up with those characters? What good would that do? Most of them have grown past Disney, and aren't going to be enticed by them dragging these characters up from the past. So thats a wasted target audience.
The people Kingdom hearts appeals two are the following: Gamers who happen to have enjoyed old school Disney, RPG/Action RPG fans, and Square Enix fans.
And guess what? They heavily advertise to all these groups through the Sqaure Enix site, IGN, Gametrailers, and other places Gamers frequent. advertising to any other group of people for this game would be outright silly and a complete waste of corporate funds.
It would be like trying to sell training wheels to Lance Armstrong.
Ok, I'll just be blunt about it.
Square-Enix's marketing knowledge > Your marketing knowledge.
I'm not sure secular is the word you're looking for there, chief. Religion has nothing to do with the question at hand.Quote:
Originally Posted by SuperMillionaire
At any rate, you're dodging the question at this point. Why is any of this an issue? You're not addressing any of the points we've made against your argument, but rather been bludgeoning ahead unconcerned with making any sort of actual argument.
Let me help you out here. I've established my position that Kingdom Hearts is very well known by its target demographics. Your next step towards intelligent discussion would be to explain why you think it's important that Kingdom Hearts receives more acknowledgment from a wider demographic encompassing a majority of Disney fans. I'm seriously curious as to why you think this is such a concern in the first place.
Also, Square Enix is about as mainstream as it gets freaking worldwide, chief. They're one of the biggest developers in the industry on both sides of the globe. I don't know who you're talking to that makes you think Square Enix isn't mainstream in the United States. It's huge everywhere.
By "secular" I meant more hidden, not up front and in the spotlight. It's a hidden phenomenon, and hasn't been in the spotlight yet.Quote:
Originally Posted by Ouch!I'm not sure secular is the word you're looking for there, chief. Religion has nothing to do with the question at hand.Quote:
Originally Posted by SuperMillionaire
At any rate, you're dodging the question at this point. Why is any of this an issue? You're not addressing any of the points we've made against your argument, but rather been bludgeoning ahead unconcerned with making any sort of actual argument.
Let me help you out here. I've established my position that Kingdom Hearts is very well known by its target demographics. Your next step towards intelligent discussion would be to explain why you think it's important that Kingdom Hearts receives more acknowledgment from a wider demographic encompassing a majority of Disney fans. I'm seriously curious as to why you think this is such a concern in the first place.
Also, Square Enix is about as mainstream as it gets freaking worldwide, chief. They're one of the biggest developers in the industry on both sides of the globe. I don't know who you're talking to that makes you think Square Enix isn't mainstream in the United States. It's huge everywhere.
That's fine, but secular refers to a lack of religious belief or (using the scientific definition) something occurring over long periods of time.
That aside, you're still neglecting to address the actual point. You still insist that Square Enix isn't in the spotlight. I just think you're looking at the wrong spotlight. SE is recognized as one of the gaming giants. Every Final Fantasy release is a huge deal in the gaming world. Your problem is that you're looking for acknowledgment in the wrong market (specifically the motion pictures and television markets). That's about as ridiculous as worrying about if Inside Hollywood is buzzing about the newest fantasy novel.
Video games are not a niche market anymore. It's an enormous market, and Square Enix is one of the biggest players in that market. They're not underground, and I've really no idea why you think they are.
Well, to be fair, Square Enix is the biggest player when it comes to RPG's.
Their sales on their releases don't compete with games like Madden, CoD, or even Halo.
That asside, your points stand. :p
And to answer the question 'How can Kingdom hearts appeal more to mainstream Disney fans?' it can't. Just like The Real World will never appeal to me, Kingdom hearts will never appeal to the squirming little child who thinks Miley Cirus is 'teh sexeh mama'.
I guess you're right, but still, shouldn't the video game market interact with the American movies/music/TV markets? I know that the movies/music/TV markets interact, so why not the video games market interact with them too? They should cross-over every now and then, right? Besides, I've seen segments on entertainment shows and magazines showcasing fantasy novels (of which, by the way, tons of them have been turned into movies), so...Quote:
Originally Posted by Ouch!
I know this is a bit blunt, but I believe most of the people here will agree with me: please start making sense!
I mean, why would they want to do that? They already have gazillions of money so what is the point?
As I've already mentioned, the media do bleed over quite a bit. Video game movies have been coming out with increasing frequency since the early 90s, and they've become increasingly successful (although the movies aren't, as a whole, increasing in quality). I think this disparity you've created is in large part an illusion. Video games are even starting to cross over with the music industry to an extent. Take a look at Grand Theft Auto, which has been using popular music on the radio stations for a while now. Hell, look at Final Fantasy XIII featuring Leona Lewis for the theme song. As for television? There's an entire channel devoted to the video game demographic. What more do you want?
WHAT?!?! Leona Lewis sings the theme song for Final Fantasy XIII?! Is that really true?!Quote:
Originally Posted by Ouch!
In the english version yes, but some people find it blasphemous that its a different song rather than a dub of the original song.
Oh my! Wow, I dreamed, but never thought such a popular western artist could do a theme song for such a game! I hope they start doing this more often!
Most people seem to disagree with you there. I don't mind a western recording artist doing the song, but I do wish they hadn't just picked it off her album and had actually worked with her to write a song specifically for the game. I'd have less of an issue with it then.Quote:
Originally Posted by SuperMillionaire
At any rate, we'll see how it goes out. "Kiss Me Goodbye" was only at the end of FFXII. I imagine this will be relatively similar.
Video game music should be made for video games, previously existing music with video games should be kept to youtube amv's
I think SE needs to get more popular western artists to do ending songs.Quote:
Originally Posted by blackmage_nuke
That's fine, but it doesn't address the assertion both nuke and I share. I don't really care who sings the theme song. The music should be made for the game. That's not to say its impossible to make a soundtrack from existing songs (it certainly works for many movies), but when a game like Final Fantasy XIII which presents a whole conceptualized world accompanied by an otherwise completely original soundtrack, it's a bit odd to just pick a song which was written without that world and atmosphere in mind. Certainly, the two may match well enough, but I hold that a cooperative effort to create an original piece would be more effective.Quote:
Originally Posted by SuperMillionaireI think SE needs to get more popular western artists to do ending songs.Quote:
Originally Posted by blackmage_nuke
Yes, that's also true too. They should do that more often too.Quote:
Originally Posted by Ouch!That's fine, but it doesn't address the assertion both nuke and I share. I don't really care who sings the theme song. The music should be made for the game. That's not to say its impossible to make a soundtrack from existing songs (it certainly works for many movies), but when a game like Final Fantasy XIII which presents a whole conceptualized world accompanied by an otherwise completely original soundtrack, it's a bit odd to just pick a song which was written without that world and atmosphere in mind. Certainly, the two may match well enough, but I hold that a cooperative effort to create an original piece would be more effective.Quote:
Originally Posted by SuperMillionaireI think SE needs to get more popular western artists to do ending songs.Quote:
Originally Posted by blackmage_nuke
That is what theyve been doing for the past 12 final fantasies up until now...
EDIT: I forgot this thread was meant to be about Kingdom hearts, The use of a simple and clean never really made sense to me. I liked the song but the lyrics didnt match up to the game, hikari made more sense though
I meant with more western artists.
Well the problem is most musical artists write songs for themselves, they dont write music to express emotions, moods and feelings they are told to express. It requires a specific skill and style of writing music to be able to project an atmosphere into a game without being intrusive which is completely different to writing a song for people to listen to on the radio. Nationality doesn't come into it.
Unless by artists you really meant preformers rather than composers which really depends on the feel that the original composer was going for.
True, I meant both performers and songwriters/composers.
And "Passion/Sanctuary" ties more into KH2 than the previous songs.
"Sanctuary" made a bit more sense lyrically, but it was a pretty awful localization of "Passion." There are far too many instances of holding out a single syllable over multiple beats that sounds forced and awkward. They could have done a better job with it, I think.Quote:
Originally Posted by SuperMillionaire
I never thought "Simple and Clean" was poorly matched with the original Kingdom Hearts, though. The refrain was perfectly appropriate. The other verses, perhaps a little less so.
Yes the chorus of "Simple and Clean" did tie in with the first KH, but the verses were only loosely related.
And even though "Passion" came out first, it was actually "Sanctuary" that was written first.
If that's the case, I'm really not sure what their excuse is then.Quote:
Originally Posted by SuperMillionaire
Yeah, they should start picking out more western artists.
I love both Passion and Sanctuary, and whether or not I like Sanctuary's lyrics (not a close translation at all...) it is a very good vocal match. Listening to the two for me is almost completely interchangeable, and this is coming from a person who is usually all like, 'If it's the Japanese version, then it is BETTER!'
Well now, that's interesting. I like both too, but for me, it's the English version that I like better (because I can't understand Japanese).Quote:
Originally Posted by x~Agita~x
It's been a while since we posted in this thread, but since it's still near the top of the page, I thought I would post in here again; I just found something interesting about the relationship between Kingdom Hearts and the rest of Disney, and I hear that this is also the case in Japan:
What's the deal with Kingdom Hearts and Disney?
Yeah that article says a whole lot of nothing and ends with hopes of High School Musical and Hannah Montana, which is just awful. *pukes*
Yes, the article is only speculation of the relationship between Square Enix and Disney.
I have heard the following:
Kingdom Hearts, Kingdom Hearts II, the Kingdom Hearts media and all respective logos, characters, artwork, stories, information, names, and other elements associated thereto are the sole and exclusive property of Square Enix Holdings Co., Ltd., The Walt Disney Company, as well as their subsidiaries and affiliated companies.
This means that Square Enix and Disney retain rights to the properties meaning that any merchandise would run into a licensing issue unless the companies worked together to produce it. Maybe it is too much of a hassle to have a third party produce the product and have both companies license and approve it? The video game merchandise market is not very large right now.
Utada Hikaru is as much a western artist as she is a Japanese artist. She was born and raised in the United States. She's fluently bilingual and releases different albums (with different songs, not just translations) in the United States and Japan. She puts out more albums in Japan because she's more popular there.Quote:
Originally Posted by SuperMillionaire
If Hannah Montana was in a Kingdom Hearts game I would cry tears of pain :(
Hell to the smurfing NO!Quote:
Anyone else down for some Sora, Donald, and Goofy musical action with the cast of High School Musical?
Hikaru Utada has released select albums in the United States, but, personally, I feel that she is still too underground to be considered a mainstream Western artist. I know that she was born in New York and that she fluently speaks English and Japanese. I think that SuperMillionaire wants to see a mainstream Western artist rather than an underground Western artist with popularity in Japan. The Wikipedia article for Hikaru Utada has more information about her activity in North America. It looks like she is trying to make a comeback in North America, so hopefully this will give her more exposure and help promote the series should she decide to record another song.Quote:
Originally Posted by Ouch!
So many ideas posted in this thread has made me bleed. Physically, bleed.
KH already appeals to Disney Fans, sure, it may not appeal to current Disney fans, but like nearly everyone else, I grew up with the Disney characters of my generation, so now being able to go back and play a serious game with Disney cameos is actually neat, and a selling point of the game to me. With that said, Atlantica from KHII. Never again.
This is late, but:
^ This.Quote:
Originally Posted by Ouch!
Sanctuary sounded so terrible, it was quite awkward during those moments where she held out those single syllables for too long, as you said. In fact whenever I heard that, I quirked this awkward smile that comes from trying to hide laughter, which is the exact same thing that happened when I saw Matrix Revolutions at the theatre with a couple friends of mine. During Trinity's death scene, Neo lets out this little cry that sounded kind of awkward, and my friends and I bursted out laughing which caused everyone in the theatre to turn around and look at us. But to be fair, I actually held in my laughter the longest, but hearing Amanda crack up made me lose control.
Seriously, I second this notion.Quote:
Originally Posted by Goldenboko
I was disappointed with Sanctuary. Have you seen the music video for Passion? Hikaru Utada is a great musical artist, but I get the feeling that much more work was done for Passion than what was done for Sanctuary. Maybe it would be a better idea if she was allowed to select another song for the North American release or remix her old track enough to make sure that her lyrics can fit the music?Quote:
Originally Posted by Khalin
I liked Ariel as a playable character rather than a singer in a musical. Incidentally, in the first game, she was selected to be a playable character rather than a Princess of Heart despite her status as a Disney Princess.Quote:
Originally Posted by Goldenboko
Passions Music Video is amazing. Hikari's is also hilarious because of how odd it is. :p
First of all, "Sanctuary" was written first, and Utada stated that writing "Passion" was a bit difficult for her because that had to be released first.
Second of all, while I do agree that seeing High School Musical and/or Hannah Montana in KHIII would make absolutely no sense, perhaps Kim Possible and Jake Long: American Dragon would, and even though Hannah Montana won't be in the storyline of the game, perhaps Miley Cyrus and other Disney Channel singers can contribute music to the games. After all, we know that Jesse McCartney is also a singer, so perhaps maybe Roxas should sing in the next game. Furthermore, Disney movies are known for their musical sequences, so having the musical in Atlantica in KHII was a homage to that.
Yes, Roogle, you have that one right.Quote:
I think that SuperMillionaire wants to see a mainstream Western artist rather than an underground Western artist with popularity in Japan.
And I still don't get why Ariel wasn't a princess of heart in the KH series, despite her status as a Disney Princess in mainstream Disney media. Perhaps what they should have done is transform her into a human and THEN put her in that capsule.
Yes, I have heard this claim before. The fact is, I find it to be a load of crockahooey. Just listening to Sanctuary irritates me to no end as she awkwardly holds way too many single syllables for varying periods of time, just to keep it flowing with the music. Her voice singing the lyrics sounds extremely worked and soaked with far too much effort, making it seem like an unnatural alternate version to the song. It screams "poorly written", and I have no idea how that thing got allowed to be installed as the opening song to their long-anticipated game.Quote:
Originally Posted by SuperMillionaire
When she sings Passion on the other hand, her voice sounds so natural and the words flow out quite effortlessly, as the words come together a lot more easily. Though I may not understand Japanese, I consider my opinion to hold some validity and merit here, as I used to listen to hundreds of Japanese songs day-in and day-out when I was younger [it came from being a youthful, hardcore anime fan, don't rub it in people], and I got a pretty good sense of their styles and approaches to singing and forming lyrical harmony.
She claims to have written Sanctuary first and Passion afterward? Could've fooled me.
I'm aware of that. They're certainly allowed to have their homages to musical sequences from Disney movies. Just don't expect me to like them or want to have anything to do with them, ever again.Quote:
Originally Posted by SuperMillionaire
I recall hearing this at the time of the release of Passion that she had written the English version of it first, but it doesn't sound like it to me because of the nature of the music. The Japanese version flows a lot better when actually performing the song because there is not as much syllable elongation as in the English version.Quote:
Originally Posted by SuperMillionaire
Passion is a longer song than Sanctuary. I think that she may have written Sanctuary first with the basic idea for Kingdom Hearts II in her mind, but then switched over to Passion and worked on that longer because she was going to release it as a single in Japan. I remember reading that the extra parts of Passion have nothing to do with Kingdom Hearts II because she knew that they would not be used for the game. If someone could find the interview or article that discusses the release of Passion, that would be great.
Maybe they didn't want to have a character that joins the party as a Princess of Heart? Maybe they didn't want to show her as a human because of her story in the first Kingdom Hearts? Alice was made a Princess of Heart despite not being a part of the Disney Princess franchise.Quote:
Originally Posted by SuperMillionaire
Other than language, the only other difference between Passion and Sanctuary is that Passsion has a that part where Utada says "My Heart's a Battle Ground"
I think it has to do with the party member thing. It also would've created extra production, as they would've had to reworked Atlantica to match what was going on in the story at the moment (Ariel's capture), thus making it easier production-wise to have an NPC play her place as a Princess of Heart.Quote:
Originally Posted by RoogleMaybe they didn't want to have a character that joins the party as a Princess of Heart? Maybe they didn't want to show her as a human because of her story in the first Kingdom Hearts? Alice was made a Princess of Heart despite not being a part of the Disney Princess franchise.Quote:
Originally Posted by SuperMillionaire
I'd say language can be a huge difference. In Latin The Aeneid is a clear case of wonderfully, and masterfully written poetry even to me. Translated into English it really loses that feel and actually sorta stinks :jess:Quote:
Originally Posted by PuPu
Don't you mean the other song? Anyways, language and choice of words makes a dramatic difference when talking about trying to make lyrics seem cohesive with music in the background. Changing the language of the lyrics while keeping the exact same music makes a drastic difference, and is extremely hard to do, as we can clearly see when listening to Sanctuary along with Passion. The former is obviously pretty bad, but I'm pretty sure she at least tried to make it sound good. I doubt she sat there and thought "okay guys, let's make this song sound REALLY terrible". It's something that just happened.Quote:
Originally Posted by PuPu
>>> I thought only the Disney fans were into the KH games..:luca:
There is a longer version of Passion that was released in Japan as a single, but there is no equivalent for Sanctuary. Sanctuary only makes an appearance in Kingdom Hearts II.Quote:
Originally Posted by PuPu
Wtf.
Damn it, I meant to say that Sanctuary has the part where she says "My Heart's a Battleground" not Passion.
No, only Square Enix fans like KH; 9/10 Disney fans don't know anything about this franchise.Quote:
Originally Posted by black orb
Actually, her most recent US album, This is the One, contains both "Simple and Clean" and "Sanctuary."Quote:
Originally Posted by RoogleThere is a longer version of Passion that was released in Japan as a single, but there is no equivalent for Sanctuary. Sanctuary only makes an appearance in Kingdom Hearts II.Quote:
Originally Posted by PuPu
Thank you for letting me know. I am going to listen to these tracks from This Is The One and post my impressions of the songs. It has been a long time since the release of those songs in Japan, so I am surprised that she wanted to revisit them and include them as Bonus Tracks on her album for Western audiences.Quote:
Originally Posted by SuperMillionaire
Yes, it's been about five years since she released those songs in Japan...
I listened to Sanctuary and Simple and Clean from This Is The One. These songs were included on the album as bonus tracks on the physical copy of the album:
11. Simple & Clean [5:03]
12. Sanctuary (Opening Version) [4:25]
13. Sanctuary (Closing Version) [5:58]
Simple & Clean and Sanctuary are at their full length on these tracks. Sanctuary (Opening Version) is the standard version of the song as seen in Kingdom Hearts II; Sanctuary (Closing Version) is a longer, solemn version of Sanctuary with a minute and a half instrumental at the end.
I was disappointed with Sanctuary mainly because of its lack of lyrics. Passion has more intense lyrics than Sanctuary, I think, and the song suffers from the syllable elongation and the lack of lyrics.
The first version of "Sanctuary" is the intro to KHII, while the second is the ending to KHII.
Didn't Passion -KINGDOM Orchestra Instrumental Version- play at the end of the game?
No, I think that instrumental orchestra version plays are a while of inactivity when you first turn on the game. After seeing the main screen of the game, if you don't press anything, you'll get a video sequence with the orchestral version of the song.
The ending version of the song first contains vocals and piano, and once the vocals end, the rest of the instruments come into play.
Quote:
Originally Posted by SuperMillionaire
Quote:
Kim Possible and Jake Long (American Dragon)
DO NOT WANTQuote:
Jake Long
Well, they are animated-action series, and they fight against various villains, so why not put them in the next Kingdom Hearts?
Because American Dragon was a rather terrible show? And the titular dragon was annoying and poorly written and designed? Kim Possible I could maybe live with, but it would feel weird to have Sora hanging around in a high school dealing with "teh drama" and occasionally fighting a blue man and a green woman.
I just went through a long complicated process of reading all these annoyingly posts choosing which ones to x-quote and respond to. But because I forgot to hit the "Remember Me" button, I had to log in again before posting... thus I lost everything that I wrote.
Anyway, I suppose my main points were as follows:
9/10 of Disney fans knowing about KH: not a bad number.
Disney changing its rules for KH Disney characters would allow them more freedom and more involvement and putting the characters into new situations would make them more interesting. I'm guessing Disney would prefer to horde this to themselves by using Kingdom Hearts as a launching point for games (better games than have been released) based on previous Disney works.
I wouldn't mind more Disney performers portraying characters or performing music. Hayden Panettiere apparently wants to be a singer and then there's Jesse McCartney.
KP and JL would be bad ideas. Playing through a world so similar to modern day reality like Manhattan and "Middleton" would not be viable in the fantasy environment KH creates and the characters themselves would not make sense outside of their own worlds. I thought the same thing when Beast joined the party at Hollow Bastion.
As for Ariel, I didn't care. If she'd been a Princess of Heart, chances are Alice would have been added to the party at Wonderland. Personally, I'd prefer not to experience that. Then again, I didn't care for Ariel as an ally either.
I guess we can drop Jake Long, but I still think Kim Possible would be a great addition to KH (at least in its western editions). I've spoken to several others outside of this forum who would like to see KP in the next KH (after BBS, of course).
And perhaps there should be more sing-alongs, but only in cutscenes, and not in actual gameplay. Sora, Roxas, Kairi, and Namine can also sing; after all, Kairi and Namine's new voice actors, Alyson Stoner and Meaghan Jette Martin, as well as Roxas' voice actor, Jesse McCartney, are singers. They should make music videos for the Disney Channel too.
And I said that 9/10 Disney fans do NOT know about KH.
I thought that american dragon was a reasonable show and the character designs in the first season were pretty basic but looked nice, However everyone had weird necks and the art style was horrible in season 2.
That said i dont want American dragon in KH
and if we did have Kim Possible i would want sora to drop in during a mission at some evil villains lair and not have to deal with with the highschool drama.
No. I like the kid. HJO is a great actor. But he's no singer, the Atlantica singalong made me nuts.Quote:
Originally Posted by SuperMillionaire
And, yes, I did indeed know exactly what you said. I was in a hurry because SOMEONE was pestering me to get off the computer. Give me a break. 9/10 of Disney fans NOT knowing 'bout Kingdom Hearts... STILL NOT a bad number.
I completely agree they ruined AmDra just when I was starting to watch it.Quote:
Originally Posted by blackmage_nuke
God, I could imagine Sora being sucked into a Ron scheme to devour Nacos for some silly championship or help to reassure KP after she's had a bad date. Somebody done slapped my momma!
I think the problem with appealing too much to mainstream Disney fans is that in the process a lot of SE fans would be turned off.
more like that :pQuote:
Originally Posted by Jessweeee♪
That's why we want to put it in the middle. Right now, KH is aimed more at SE than Disney, and we want to tailor it to be right in the middle.
Who's "we"?
supermillionare is possibly used the royal we. :p
The best parts of Kingdom Hearts games are the original Square Enix worlds and characters. I'd sooner drop Disney than lose any SE.
This game is 99% Disney and 1% SE.
Even original character such Sora, Riku, Kairi, and Organization XIII are Disney characters. Disney may have hired SE to make them, but Disney owns all the rights to them.
I agree.Quote:
Originally Posted by Roogle
I do hope Utada continues making songs for the series. I think she has quite the voice for it. I love both her English and Japanese stuff.
On another tangent, I actually think the appeal is quite good. I can't see anything they can do that is more mainstream Disney, besides throw all of the awesome Pixar characters in, which is really the only really good piece of modern Disney cartoons and movies, however loosely affiliated it may be.
That or put Hannah Montana as one of the chars. That way... you get the best of both worlds. :greenie:
No, it's the other way around; SE own the rights to the franchise, only using Disney characters, but doesn't feel anything like Disney to me.Quote:
Originally Posted by PuPu
I wouldn't say put Hannah Montana as a character in KHIII, but perhaps include music from Miley Cyrus in the soundtrack.Quote:
Originally Posted by Rye
It's not about how fast... (or) what's waiting on the other side... it's the climb.
LOL. Mountains everywhere, and we gotta move them out of our way.
NI/OPM - Kingdom Hearts UltimaniaQuote:
Originally Posted by SuperMillionaire
"Indeed, not unlike a parent giving a child up for adoption, Nomura has no control over Sora or any other original characters appearing in Kingdom Hearts. The contract between Square Enix and Disney gives almost full control of the Kingdom Hearts property over to Disney."
Then why doesn't Disney promote it like all of its other franchises?!
Disney pays Square Enix to do that, just like they pay Square Enix to make the games.
They should pay Square Enix to make the games, but Disney should promote them!
If Sora , Riku , Kairi , Darkness in ZeroAnsem, Namine , AnsemXehanort's Heartless, the MastersXehanort and Eraqus, the Apprentices Vanitas , Terra , Aqua , Ventus, the OrganizationXigbar=Braig , Xaldin=Dilan , Vexen=Even , Lexaeus=Aeleus , Zexion=Ienzo , Saix=Isa , Axel=Lea , Demyx , Luxord , Larxene , Marluxia , Xion, the Heartless , the Nobodies , and the Unversed are all property of Disney... then I'm inclined now to agree they should be made a bigger part of the Disney Franchise. Why not make a couple of movies or a TV show?
My thoughts exactly, Mercen-X.
Because they would be... bad?Quote:
Originally Posted by Mercen-X
Because Disney doesn't know how to make a good TV show or movie based on these characters, or the KH storyline.
Hence the whole, "pay Square Enix to do all the work" part.
The actual plot of Kingdom Hearts is Nomura's brainchild. He proposed the idea to Disney initially, not the other way around. I mean, I guess they could adapt the games into a television series like they have into a manga if they really wanted, but I sincerely doubt it'd be worth it.
There's a huge difference between classic Disney and trash on TV. Honestly, I don't know why someone would suggest something so horrible. If you can't find the difference then you have no right in being a Disney fan.Quote:
Originally Posted by SuperMillionaire
Well then, perhaps other Disney Channel stars...
You just missed the point there, chief. The Disney Channel is hardly on par with classic Disney movies. It's all about as bad as Hannah Montana.Quote:
Originally Posted by SuperMillionaire
Quote:
Originally Posted by SuperMillionaire
Disney Channel is set up with a target audience of preteen girls. Kingdom Hearts is not made with that audience in mind. You might want it, but you understand that very few agree with you on the idea.
Also, Disney Channel itself has nothing to do with the series at all, and the likelihood of any Disney Channel character or personality is about the same as Spiderman appearing in Kingdom Hearts.
The target of the Disney Channel ranges from preteens to mid-teens. I don't watch many of those shows, but I knwo they're popular. I do agree with you that putting Hannah Montana in KHIII would not make any sense, but Miley Cyrus can still contribute music to the games. She is also starring in a film based on the Nicholas Sparks novel The Last Song, which is intended to introduce her to older audiences. And the theme song" When I Look at You" is a very beautiful song. Hear it for yourself:Quote:
Originally Posted by qwertysaurQuote:
Originally Posted by SuperMillionaire
Disney Channel is set up with a target audience of preteen girls. Kingdom Hearts is not made with that audience in mind. You might want it, but you understand that very few agree with you on the idea.
Also, Disney Channel itself has nothing to do with the series at all, and the likelihood of any Disney Channel character or personality is about the same as Spiderman appearing in Kingdom Hearts.
YouTube - Miley Cyrus The Last Song When I Look At You Official Music Video HD
I think both this song and "The Climb" fit KH quite well.
They are popular, among preteen and teenage girls. There is very little overlap between them and the people playing Kingdom Hearts.
Can Miley Cyrus sing fluently in Japanese? No, and if you want a voiced part in a Japanese game, you need to be speaking in Japanese. That's one of the reasons why Utada performs the theme songs, she can sing in both English and Japanese.
If his next response is "Why not put the Miley songs in the english version in place of the japanese songs" I will rage
Put Miley's music ONLY in the English version, and NOT the Japanese version. Utada should still sing the main theme, but additional songs can be put into the soundtrack. Miley and other Disney Channel stars' music should only be present in the English version.
Adding things in for one release and not the other is a very bad idea. It takes a lot longer to release the game if they have to make more changes than simply the voice overs.
Also again, what good will it do? Miley Cyrus's audience is not the same as the people who play Kingdom Hearts. You don't see Miley Cyrus Paintball guns either right? Because there is almost no overlap between people who play paintball and Miley Cyrus fans.
Those are two different situations, Qwertysaur, and I've spoken to other KH fans outside this forum who like Miley Cyrus and other Disney Channel pop stars, and they say that they would like to have their music featured in the next game's soundtrack.
You are missing the point I'm trying to make, and that is that people who play Kingdom Hearts and those that like the Disney channel personalities are very few and far between, and from the perspective of the developer, to cater to such a small subset of the players would be a suicidal decision. If I had to listen to Miley Cyrus to play Kingdom Hearts I would not be able to enjoy the game.
I'd be able to stand Miley Cyrus voicing some character or another. That's about as far as I'm willing to go with her involvement, and it wouldn't be the first time that Disney channel stars have gotten such roles (Christy Carlson Romano or whatever as Yuffie). It wouldn't make me happy, but it would be something I could handle.
I'm not saying alienate the main audience; rather, I would want to franchise to pulll more fans in.Quote:
Originally Posted by qwertysaur
It would be nice to see more people enjoying games, but you can't please everyone. A jack of all trades is a master of none. :p
This is ludicrous, but thankfully it'll never happen. So I think I'll just move along now.
True, we can't please everyone, but we can still try to please more, even if it's not everyone...Quote:
Originally Posted by qwertysaur
If she did a theme song for Kingdom Hearts you certainly won't find it on my iPod, but I think she could probably do a pretty good job of voicing a character. Like how I feel about Jesse McCartney and Roxas. Can't stand his music, but I do love Roxas's voice!Quote:
Originally Posted by Ouch!
The problem is that there are about as many people who hate Miley Cyrus as there are people who like her. I'm willing to bet there are more people who would be unhappy about Miley Cyrus singing in the game than there would be people they're bringing to the franchise. It's too radical a proposition to be realistic as a means to bring in more people.Quote:
Originally Posted by SuperMillionaireTrue, we can't please everyone, but we can still try to please more, even if it's not everyone...Quote:
Originally Posted by qwertysaur
They why not other Disney Channel singers?
Partly because Utada Hikaru has already done the theme songs and she does a good job of it. While I am not a huge fan of Utada's latest English album, her Kingdom Hearts works have been rather enjoyable. Passion is one of my favourite songs and Sanctuary is not half-bad.
Now if we ended up with a Disney star doing some voice acting and their character ended up doing some singing (like KHII's Atlantica) that'd be tolerable, especially since hearing Sora sing in KHII made a part of me die on the inside.
I guess you're right on that part, but I never said that a Disney star should sing the main theme song of the game; instead include other songs that play during gameplay cutscenes.
Why exactly do we need more musical numbers throughout Kingdom Hearts? I thought the overwhelming unpopularity (and yes, I know some people liked it, but a majority did not) of Atlantica in Kingdom Hearts II would be proof enough that the market for Disney song-and-dance numbers in the game is very small.
It's frequently hard enough as it is to take the Kingdom Hearts plot seriously when it's trying to sober up for a moment; we don't need to compound this with the Jonas Brothers singing in the background. It would be bloody awful.
Well, they would have to make sure that the lyrics fit the storyline, would it not? If the lyrics don't fit the story, then the inclusion of the song would'nt make any sense now, would it?
Quote:
Originally Posted by SuperMillionaire
Restating what Ouch! just said, why the need to even include the song at all? Nevermind the fact that you would not have an equivalent singer in the original Japanese game, you want to take the piece of the game that has the worst reception from Kingdom Hearts II and expand it further. And you want to do it using something that most of those people don't like. Remember, expanding a fanbase is one thing, alienating the existing fanbase to expand is not a good move.
It's like the toy that toddlers play with that has different shaped blocks and holes. Try and fit the Square into the Circular hole, and you quickly find it wont fit. So don't try and force it in, and go with what wil work, and put it through the square hole :p
I didn't say an actual musical singing sequence. What I meant was background music; the characters won't actually be singing in the storyline.
How often do you have vocals in a BGM? It's a rare thing to do, and usually it is when the song is the main theme of the game. You are not making any sense with this :(
I've seen movies with multiple songs featured in their BGM, and other video games too.
Kingdom Hearts is not a movie, so that is an irrelevant point. Please give me names of games with BGM that have lyrics as proof. :p
But still, Qwertysaur, it's common to have many songs other than the main theme in the BGM of movies and video games alike, is it not?
Why are you insisting on including movies all of a sudden in this discussion? Kingdom Hearts is certainly not a movie (Though some JRPG's do feel like one at times :p)
Yes there are many different BGM in a game, but how often do they have lyrics in them?
Also having any scene with a moderate amount of dialogue while there is singing in the background gets confusing.
This topic is getting ridiculous.
SM, I don't understand why it seems so difficult to accept that your position regarding the matter is in the minority. Regardless of whether or not it would work (I'd argue BGM with lyrics would be obnoxious, especially when sung by the "talent" of the Disney channel), you should be able to at least acknowledge that because what you're asking for is so unpopular, it's not a realistic expectation.
The thing is, I would like it to gain even MORE popularity, and that's why I'm suggesting these ideas.
You're suggesting it basically be pushed into the direction of being a little kid's game, which will highly irritate the current fan base. Despite the fact that it has Disney characters, the audience is mostly older than the "little kid" audience. Most teenagers are too busy trying to macho-posture to even give such things as Disney-like singing a chance, and people older than that are likely to roll their eyes to such things in the game and say "Oh my god, you're kidding me". So many ideas in this topic have been so silly, that I cannot even imagine a realistic RPG having these things. Most people would probably view such changes as a mockery of an RPG, and the game would just be a joke in the RPG community. There is no way that SE would realistically implement such ideas, because they know it'll alienate the majority of their target audience, in exchange for earning the appreciation of an incomparably smaller one.Quote:
Originally Posted by SuperMillionaire
I'm not saying characters should sing more; I would just like a little bit of Disney Channel music, that's all.
And were saying it wouldnt work. As background music it would be distracting and irritating, also the english audience would feel short changed if their experience differed from the experience of the original japanese version
If you really want disney channel music in KH then just buy the Miley Cirus or whatever soundtrack and have it run in the background while you play.
I know this was an attempt to salvage your argument here, but I think this just makes it sound a lot worse. I think most people don't even see the Disney Channel being a true part of actual Disney. I also think that you haven't really listened to anything I said, or anything that anyone else has been saying. I'm not trying to shoot you down or belittle you, but you need to understand that there are too many people that probably will not respond well to the implementations you're suggesting.Quote:
Originally Posted by SuperMillionaire
My intention is not to alienate the current audience, though...
The implementation of your suggestions most certainly would alienate the current audience, of that you should have no doubt. Please trust us on this. Pretty much everyone here has face-palmed over these silly suggestions. To a NORMAL PERSON, this should be a CLUE as to what the reactions of other SE fans might be.Quote:
Originally Posted by SuperMillionaire
Want Kingdom Hearts advertised to Disney audiences better? One good way to try this would be to go through the legal work and maybe make some rides in Disneyland or Disney World based on Kingdom Hearts. All sorts of people go to these theme parks, and seeing such rides might make them go "Hey look at that cute Sora guy standing next to Goofy and Donald. What's that?", and it'll easily be successful as people pay very high prices to take their families to these parks for 2-3 days usually, so they're generally trying all the rides they can possibly think of. I think this was already mentioned, but perhaps they could also work some deal with SE to have them make either a movie or an anime series based on Kingdom Hearts to be shown on the Disney Channel [or both, and the movie should be released in theatres obviously]. The anime series only has to be moderately good, as things like the Aladdin and The Little Mermaid TV series actually did pretty well with that audience. Those are actual ways you'd give more exposure of Kingdom Hearts to some of the Disney audiences.
None of these are likely to happen, but I actually think they'd be pretty fun if they did. Regardless, it's best if we try not to screw up the Kingdom Hearts games by tinkering around with them and adding things like The Jonas Brothers or Hannah Montana, or what have you. The suggestions I just mentioned are guaranteed to work exponentially better than putting more songs, or singing, or Disney Channel singers into a Kingdom Hearts game.
I think the most important point to attempt to drive home is that there is a significant rift between the elements of the Disney franchise appearing in the Kingdom Hearts games and the type of Disney schlock we get through the Disney Channel. Movies like Beauty and the Beast, Alladin, Hercules, etc. are legitimately good movies, albeit aimed primarily at younger audiences, which just about anyone can enjoy (which would include an RPG's target audience). The stuff on the Disney Channel is crap directed at preteen girls (not the target audience of any video game). I'm sure you're probably already aware of this (and I hope for your sake that you are), but you being a 20-year-old male and enjoying Disney Channel television programs is atypical of your age group and also atypical, I'd wager, of the target demographic of just about any video game Square Enix produces.
It may not alienate you from the games by adding that kind of :bou::bou::bou::bou: in, but you can't possibly be so ignorant of the Disney Channel's relative unpopularity to truly believe that it would mesh well for larger audiences...
I think how Pirates of the Carribean's inclusion in KH2 didn't work so well is an example of how putting even good new Disney (the first move was good) has backfired. It didn't mesh well. If good Disney from the 21st century isn't meshing well, how do you expect bad Disney from the 21st to be successful?
Hence why I gave [what I feel to be] good advertisement suggestions that don't involve adding annoying nonsense to the Kingdom Hearts games. I'm pretty sure that adding such things to the games won't increase awareness to Disney fans, since I don't think Miley Cyrus being in Kingdom Hearts in some fashion or whatever will magically make Disney Channel fans instantly aware of it. Adding a bunch of random song junk to the game will only be noticed by people already aware of the game and playing it, and will not magically spread "awareness" of this game to people that haven't heard of it yet.Quote:
Originally Posted by Ouch!
Kingdom Hearts already has characters from Disney's best animated films, as well as other characters we grew up with [like Winnie the Pooh], which is there to appeal to people that liked Disney things growing up. All you need to do now is spread awareness of such. The best methods of doing this would not involve messing around with the games themselves at all.
Please stop suggesting that things like Miley Cyrus or The Jonas Brothers or whatever should be put into the game. Too many people would hate it and see it as a huge joke, myself included.
Good point.Quote:
Originally Posted by Ouch!
Some of those suggestions are actually pretty good!Quote:
Originally Posted by KhalinThe implementation of your suggestions most certainly would alienate the current audience, of that you should have no doubt. Please trust us on this. Pretty much everyone here has face-palmed over these silly suggestions. To a NORMAL PERSON, this should be a CLUE as to what the reactions of other SE fans might be.Quote:
Originally Posted by SuperMillionaire
Want Kingdom Hearts advertised to Disney audiences better? One good way to try this would be to go through the legal work and maybe make some rides in Disneyland or Disney World based on Kingdom Hearts. All sorts of people go to these theme parks, and seeing such rides might make them go "Hey look at that cute Sora guy standing next to Goofy and Donald. What's that?", and it'll easily be successful as people pay very high prices to take their families to these parks for 2-3 days usually, so they're generally trying all the rides they can possibly think of. I think this was already mentioned, but perhaps they could also work some deal with SE to have them make either a movie or an anime series based on Kingdom Hearts to be shown on the Disney Channel [or both, and the movie should be released in theatres obviously]. The anime series only has to be moderately good, as things like the Aladdin and The Little Mermaid TV series actually did pretty well with that audience. Those are actual ways you'd give more exposure of Kingdom Hearts to some of the Disney audiences.
None of these are likely to happen, but I actually think they'd be pretty fun if they did. Regardless, it's best if we try not to screw up the Kingdom Hearts games by tinkering around with them and adding things like The Jonas Brothers or Hannah Montana, or what have you. The suggestions I just mentioned are guaranteed to work exponentially better than putting more songs, or singing, or Disney Channel singers into a Kingdom Hearts game.
And I don't actually watch many of those shows (except Kim Possible), but I still like some of the music. I guess the reason why I suggested me ideas was because Kingdom Hearts has Disney characters in it, but it feels too much like Final Fantasy. Disney is supposed to give it a unique feel, but now it's becoming more and more like another Final Fantasy game, and this is not Final Fantasy.
I've also spoken to other KH fans outside this forum that would like some of my ideas implemented into the games.
Kingdom Hearts does have a unique feel though. It's the combination of Disney and Final Fantasy. You want to increase the effect of the Disney part, and that's a fair thing to want. You are suggesting to increase it with things that would drive away the Square Enix half of the game, which most of the fans are drawn from.
Disney is a lot larger than the Disney channel, which as has been said many times now, has a very narrow and well defined target. It is rare to have someone in that target be interested in Kingdom Hearts now, and trying to cater the game to bring them in will turn off those outside that target, and the game will suffer and lose more fans than they will gain.Disney is also huge and has more to it than the Disney Channel. Think about what makes the films beloved by so many people, that's what Disney is best suited to contribute.
Can you get those other fans to come here and join in on the discussion? I'm interested in hearing what they have to say :)
To me, it appears to be 90% Square Enix and only 10% Disney. It doesn't feel anything like Disney at all. No wonder why 9/10 Disney fans are not fans of the games yet! 9/10 KH fans come from Square Enix, and only 1/10 come from Disney.