Eyes on Feminine Features

Printable View

11-14-2009, 01:31 AM
Depression Moon

Eyes on Feminine Features

This thread has been splitted from another thread because of off-topic-ness and such. The topic here is, in short, whether the Final Fantasy males look feminine or not. -Rantzien

Quote:

The only thing that connects the games is a couple names and maybe a few monsters. Oh and that all males look feminine.

Not true. There are story elements, themes, and crystals that also give attachment. I want to know how you think that Auron, any of the Cids, Cloud, Squall, Zell, Kain, Shadow, Tellah, Barret, Wakka, Basch, Balthier, Snow, Amarant, Vivi, Kimahri, Locke, Umaro, Sabin, Edgar, Golbez and Steiner look feminine.
11-14-2009, 02:34 AM
Freya

Quote:

Originally Posted by Depression Moon

Quote:

The only thing that connects the games is a couple names and maybe a few monsters. Oh and that all males look feminine.

Not true. There are story elements, themes, and crystals that also give attachment. I want to know how you think that Auron, any of the Cids, Cloud, Squall, Zell, Kain, Shadow, Tellah, Barret, Wakka, Basch, Balthier, Snow, Amarant, Vivi, Kimahri, Locke, Umaro, Sabin, Edgar, Golbez and Steiner look feminine.

REALLY? xD Are you serious?! Most those guys you listed look like chicks.

Hell here I found a lovely example for you.

http://i2.photobucket.com/albums/y4/...male-cloud.jpg
11-15-2009, 12:08 AM
Depression Moon

Quote:

Originally Posted by Freya

REALLY? xD Are you serious?! Most those guys you listed look like chicks.

Hell here I found a lovely example for you.

http://i2.photobucket.com/albums/y4/...male-cloud.jpg

That's a modded pic though. So that doesn't count you can put a womanly wig on any guy and put him in a dress and not realize it's a woman until you get close enough, unless they're bulging with muscles.
11-15-2009, 03:25 AM
Freya

All they did was give him long hair and a dress. The facial structure is still the same. It's still very feminine. As do most the FF guys. It's a japanese thing. Look at any of their popular music artists.

Here I made you a picture to show you that the facial structure for lady cloud and normal cloud are the same and he looks like a very cute girl if I may add.

http://i51.photobucket.com/albums/f3...cloud-lady.gif
11-15-2009, 04:23 AM
RedPouch

Quote:

Originally Posted by Depression Moon

Not true. There are story elements, themes, and crystals that also give attachment. I want to know how you think that Auron, any of the Cids, Cloud, Squall, Zell, Kain, Shadow, Tellah, Barret, Wakka, Basch, Balthier, Snow, Amarant, Vivi, Kimahri, Locke, Umaro, Sabin, Edgar, Golbez and Steiner look feminine.

^ This.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Freya

All they did was give him long hair and a dress. The facial structure is still the same.

I can tell you lack any knowledge of anatomical/artistic study of males and females, especially when it comes to facial structure, but I'll just give a quick rhetorical as an example. You do realize how easily most women can actually look male by just wearing some different clothes and getting a masculine haircut, right? You're pretty deluded if you think any of the guys Wolf Kanno mentioned look "feminine". Just because the Japanese typically do cleaner cut faces with chiseled facial-bone structures in no way depicts femininity [they don't have to look like Jack Black just to be considered looking "male"]. If anything, it sounds like you have a 70's-American-media-influenced opinion on what males "should" look like. Either go watch some cowboy movies or go play Street Fighter IV/WoW.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Freya

...he looks like a very cute girl if I may add.

No. Just no. Cloud looks cute as a guy, however he looks ugly as a female in this picture you showed. His cheeks are way too thick for the female hair that was put on him, and whoever designed the body made it too bulky [or "fat" for lack of a better word]. His cheekbone placement also make it a dead-giveaway that he's actually male, so it sorta kills the image of this possibly being a female.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Wolf Kanno

I personally adored XII and was happy to see SE try to break away from the stifling forumlatic approach that most JRPGs were doing at the time. It was more of an FF to me than X was as I felt XII really tried to redefine the genre and created new expectations that I have for the series.

I really hated the character designs for FF XII [and I'll have to say that Vaan is one of the few that actually does look feminine], but it was a great installment in the FF series. I would much rather have played as Reks though, but I guess I should have expected SE to stick me with someone second-rate [at least it wasn't Tidus though]. This game really restored a lot of my faith though. I was so happy with FF IX, then FF X was such a disappointment and FF X-2 was even worse, I was starting to lose my faith again. I'm having some doubts about FF XIII but I'll give it a fair chance like the others.
11-15-2009, 04:25 AM
Roogle

Quote:

Originally Posted by Khalin

Just because the Japanese typically do cleaner cut faces with chiseled bone structures in no way depicts femininity [they don't have to look like Jack Black to be considered looking "male"]. If anything, it sounds like you have a 70's-American-media-influenced opinion on what males "should" look like. Either go watch some cowboy movies or go play Street Fighter IV/WoW.

I agree. Sometimes, I think that games like that create an unfair expectation of hypermasculinity.

I like the artwork in Street Fighter IV, but the actual graphics in gameplay look a lot more exaggerated than the artwork in some instances. I like the world design and scenic artwork of the World of Warcraft series, but I think that its character design for the human races tends to be a bit too gruff.
11-15-2009, 07:07 AM
Jessweeee♪

Quote:

Originally Posted by Freya

Quote:

Originally Posted by Depression Moon

Quote:

The only thing that connects the games is a couple names and maybe a few monsters. Oh and that all males look feminine.

Not true. There are story elements, themes, and crystals that also give attachment. I want to know how you think that Auron, any of the Cids, Cloud, Squall, Zell, Kain, Shadow, Tellah, Barret, Wakka, Basch, Balthier, Snow, Amarant, Vivi, Kimahri, Locke, Umaro, Sabin, Edgar, Golbez and Steiner look feminine.

REALLY? xD Are you serious?! Most those guys you listed look like chicks.

Hell here I found a lovely example for you.

http://i2.photobucket.com/albums/y4/...male-cloud.jpg

Cloud's the only character she listed that's even remotely feminine-looking, and even then I have to agree with Khalin and say he has a masculine build to him.

I think it's the flawless skin on the face and lack of facial hair that gets people. I suppose in the case of Vaan and Tidus there's also the hair, but everything else is clearly masculine.
11-15-2009, 08:58 AM
Fynn

I disagree with Khalin. Before I really concentrated on the picture, I thought that was Stella from vXIII.
11-15-2009, 11:24 AM
scrumpleberry

Quote:

Originally Posted by Khalin

Quote:

Originally Posted by Freya

All they did was give him long hair and a dress. The facial structure is still the same.

I can tell you lack any knowledge of anatomical/artistic study of males and females, especially when it comes to facial structure, but I'll just give a quick rhetorical as an example. You do realize how easily most women can actually look male by just wearing some different clothes and getting a masculine haircut, right? You're pretty deluded if you think any of the guys Wolf Kanno mentioned look "feminine". Just because the Japanese typically do cleaner cut faces with chiseled facial-bone structures in no way depicts femininity [they don't have to look like Jack Black just to be considered looking "male"]. If anything, it sounds like you have a 70's-American-media-influenced opinion on what males "should" look like. Either go watch some cowboy movies or go play Street Fighter IV/WoW.

Lmao what.

Firstly, you're being quite rude. Secondly, Freya's not saying there's anything wrong with guys having a feminine face, so there's no need to throw a hissy fit. She's just pointing out the trend for ff guys to have girly faces - which is undoubtedly present.

It's no easier for women to crossdress as men than for men to crossdress as women - in fact, I think skinny guys probably have it the easiest, because of the androgynous beauty stereotype for models. All you've proven is that men and women have similar facial structures that can be worked to make them look male or female.

I have no idea where you're geting this word chiseled from. Cloud is the opposite of chiseled. He has a soft face with a demure narrow jaw and petite features.

Cloud is girlier in the face than the average man on the street, in the US or Japan or anywhere else. In exactly the same way that Tifa has a more ridiculously proportionaed body than most women on the street. They're not meant to be a copy of reality. Girly faces in FF is not a bad trend, but it is a trend. If you can't see that, then you're in the nile, my dear.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Khalin

Quote:

Originally Posted by Freya

...he looks like a very cute girl if I may add.

No. Just no. Cloud looks cute as a guy, however he looks ugly as a female in this picture you showed. His cheeks are way too thick for the female hair that was put on him, and whoever designed the body made it too bulky [or "fat" for lack of a better word]. His cheekbone placement also make it a dead-giveaway that he's actually male, so it sorta kills the image of this possibly being a female.

Firstly, I don't know what the hell you're talking about with that hair. I don't think you do either. Anyway, the picture isn't about him looking cute or not, it's a homage to the humourous crossdressing scene in wall market, where you know he's looking ridiculously buff in the dress. The only thing wrong with the photoshopped shot is that his neck looks too thick, because the shopper didn't change the position to allow for the different pose.

I'd say you're the one LACKING KNOWLEDGE OF BASIC ANATOMICAL FACIAL STRUCTURE FNARF - I don't know what magic world you live in where women all have magic high supermodel cheekbones, but it ain't earth. There are as many guys with high cheekbones as girls. Likewise, there are as many girls with normal, unFIERCE cheekbones as guys. Girls just choose to enhance theirs with makeup and lighting in photos and stuff. So you're just talking out of your bum with rage :bigsmile:
11-15-2009, 07:17 PM
RedPouch

Quote:

Originally Posted by turkeyberry

Firstly, you're being quite rude. Secondly, Freya's not saying there's anything wrong with guys having a feminine face, so there's no need to throw a hissy fit.

I'm not throwing a hissy fit, I'm just saying it sounds ridiculous, and most people I'm talking to on #eoff IRC seem to agree - I just went out and said it first.

Quote:

Originally Posted by turkeyberry

She's just pointing out the trend for ff guys to have girly faces - which is undoubtedly present.

Unless you're talking about Vaan or Kuja, then no.

Quote:

Originally Posted by turkeyberry

It's no easier for women to crossdress as men than for men to crossdress as women

I never claimed otherwise? I don't get the point of this part.

Quote:

Originally Posted by turkeyberry

All you've proven is that men and women have similar facial structures that can be worked to make them look male or female.

That's exactly what I've been trying to say in the first place... thanks for confirming I guess.

Quote:

Originally Posted by turkeyberry

I have no idea where you're geting this word chiseled from. Cloud is the opposite of chiseled. He has a soft face with a demure narrow jaw and petite features.

Wasn't really referring to Cloud. Check the part where you quoted me talking about Cloud's facial features for further info.

Quote:

Originally Posted by turkeyberry

Cloud is girlier in the face than the average man on the street, in the US or Japan or anywhere else. In exactly the same way that Tifa has a more ridiculously proportionaed body than most women on the street. They're not meant to be a copy of reality. Girly faces in FF is not a bad trend, but it is a trend. If you can't see that, then you're in the nile, my dear.

Not really. It's more of a bishounen-type trend than anything, but despite the softness of their faces they're still too male-looking to be confused with women. Aside from White Wizard lady up here, I've yet to talk to someone that's read this topic who thinks that Cloud's face could actually pass off as female in that picture. He just looks plain gross. Don Corneo needs a pair of glasses.

Quote:

Originally Posted by turkeyberry

Firstly, I don't know what the hell you're talking about with that hair. I don't think you do either.

Sure I do. His hair in this photoshopped picture is making his cheeks look a bit fatter than they are and what little we can see of his upper-body looks a little too beefy to pass off as female. The neck is making it worse yes, but that's part of Cloud's build as a male. Humourous? yes.

Quote:

Originally Posted by turkeyberry

Anyway, the picture isn't about him looking cute or not

No, but Lekana said he looked cute as a female, so I had to get that one in there.

Quote:

Originally Posted by turkeyberry

I'd say you're the one LACKING KNOWLEDGE OF BASIC ANATOMICAL FACIAL STRUCTURE FNARF - I don't know what magic world you live in where women all have magic high supermodel cheekbones, but it ain't earth.

I didn't say anything about women having high supermodel cheekbones though... this is something you just randomly brought up. However I will say that the first thing we learned in my facial-analysis art class is that males and females have very distinctive yet strikingly-similar facial structures. As for the rage part, I'm not mad, just pretty expressive. But yeah I'm told I can come across as rude, so it's not just you!

Quote:

Originally Posted by Wolf Kanno

I just want to chime in real fast and ask everyone to stay cool concerning the topic. Please try to keep things civil and that goes for everyone... especially me.

I'll try! You know me!
11-15-2009, 07:36 PM
scrumpleberry

"the Japanese typically do cleaner cut faces with chiseled facial-bone structures"

w/e I'm too lazy to argue with you again. These guys really do look effeminate! I don't understand why you don't understand that. The bishounen-type trend is all about prettyboys. Prettyboys are effeminate *shrug*
11-16-2009, 04:00 AM
Bolivar

In all fairness I do have to say that when my Uncle saw me playing FFVII he said "damn, look at that chick go!" and he was unfortunately referring to Cloud performing Cross-Slash or something.

I don't know man, it's just the art, which has to do with the culture, which has to do with humanity as both Freya and Khalin both (ironically) pointed out. I remember being pissed when concept art for FFIII was being released I was like "Damn! I don't wanna play as four ***(chicks)***ches!!!

You just gotta roll with it :)
11-16-2009, 06:26 AM
RedPouch

http://www.ffcompendium.com/misc/kh-cloud-a.jpg
http://img.freeforumzone.it/upload/8...loud_ff7ac.jpg
http://www.rpgamer.com/games/kh/king...eens/cloud.jpg
So feminine. Clearly. You don't even have to alter the pictures to make him look female or anything. It's so obvious the way they are.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Bolivar

I don't know man, it's just the art, which has to do with the culture, which has to do with humanity as both Freya and Khalin both (ironically) pointed out. I remember being pissed when concept art for FFIII was being released I was like "Damn! I don't wanna play as four ***(chicks)***ches!!!

It has to do with the race most of all, since each race has its own prominent facial features that generally come along with it. But what's a greater influence than that is culture itself. In all honesty, I think older-generation Americans are too used to hyper-masculine images of what a "man" should look like.
11-16-2009, 10:52 AM
Mirage

Yeah he looks quite feminine at the last CG picture there. Like an angry girl, sort of.

Last time I had a girl fix my hair and put make-up on me, I definitely did not look as feminine as Cloud does, and I consider my face to be averagely masculine.
11-16-2009, 12:13 PM
Fynn

Quote:

Originally Posted by Khalin

Aside from White Wizard lady up here,[...]

It's ironic that you say you think I'm a girl in a topic about effeminite men...
11-16-2009, 08:26 PM
RedPouch

Quote:

Originally Posted by The White Wizard of Fynn

Quote:

Originally Posted by Khalin

Aside from White Wizard lady up here,[...]

It's ironic that you say you think I'm a girl in a topic about effeminite men...

Aw, I'm sorry. I thought you were female because I vaguely recall someone in IRC saying you were.
11-16-2009, 09:24 PM
Fynn

Quote:

Originally Posted by Khalin

Quote:

Originally Posted by The White Wizard of Fynn

Quote:

Originally Posted by Khalin

Aside from White Wizard lady up here,[...]

It's ironic that you say you think I'm a girl in a topic about effeminite men...

Aw, I'm sorry. I thought you were female because I vaguely recall someone in IRC saying you were.

Buh? Now that's one of the funniest rumours anyone has spread about me :D
11-16-2009, 10:49 PM
Freya

Quote:

Originally Posted by The White Wizard of Fynn

Quote:

Originally Posted by Khalin

Quote:

Originally Posted by The White Wizard of Fynn

Quote:

Originally Posted by Khalin

Aside from White Wizard lady up here,[...]

It's ironic that you say you think I'm a girl in a topic about effeminite men...

Aw, I'm sorry. I thought you were female because I vaguely recall someone in IRC saying you were.

Buh? Nor that's one of the funniest rumours anyone has spread about me :D

Maybe it's the cats?
11-17-2009, 01:20 AM
Depression Moon

Oh I apologize for having you to make a new thread Rantzien.
Well maybe out of the bunch I chose maybe Cloud was somewhere in the middle. I never mistook him for a girl though, but you claimed that Freya that most of the characters I named looked feminine. So who else in there do you think looks like a girl? Cyan, Barret?
11-17-2009, 02:07 AM
Freya

Doesn't matter you'll disagree anyway.
11-17-2009, 10:21 AM
Fynn

Can't a guy love his cats? Plus - 'Wizard' is masculine in the dictionary, so go figure...

Anyhoo, I think Cloud might not have been so feminine in the original game (his portrait had more masculine features), but the compilation has made him so. It's even worse with Sephiroth! His face was quite manly in FFVII, while in Advent Children, Crisis Core, etc. he looks like a woman!

Take a look:
http://images1.wikia.nocookie.net/fi...h_Portrait.jpg
I had a problem figuring out his gender by looking at his character model, but once I saw this portrait I knew he was a man.
http://images1.wikia.nocookie.net/fi...th-Concept.jpg
Now I know you can see the muscular chest on him this time, but just look at that face! For crying out loud, if that's not a woman's face, then I don't know what is!
11-17-2009, 10:53 AM
RedPouch

I'll of course agree with you on Sephiroth. I have always hated his character design, as I'm extremely tired of the japanese clich of a try-hard wannabe-silent-cold kinda woman-haired guy. You've probably seen me rant and rage about Sephiroth's character design as well as his actual "personality". I'm definitely tired of Square trying to make this cheap-cliche villain preserve some sense of special presence [why couldn't the secret bosses from KH have been Kefka or someone that's actually cool?].

As a side-note: Not only does Sephiroth look feminine with his stupid face and his girly woman-hair, but he also looks damn ugly to begin with. Try harder Sephiroth.
11-18-2009, 02:17 PM
Fynn

You know, I get why they wanted to make his person seem "otherworldly", what with him being infused with alien-parasite ganes, but I don't see how a silver-haired, muscular man with a woman's face is otherworldly. To me it's just plain disturbing.
11-18-2009, 03:06 PM
Forsaken Lover

Where is it said they wanted to make Sephiroth look "otherwoldly?" He just looks like a big guy with long hair in a coat.

YouTube - Final Fantasy VII FMV Sephiroth Nibleheim Fire

Now in updated versions of that, at least from what I remember of AC, he looks a lot more feminine. Not sure though as my eyesight sucks.
11-18-2009, 06:31 PM
Fynn

Quote:

Originally Posted by Forsaken Lover

Where is it said they wanted to make Sephiroth look "otherwoldly?" He just looks like a big guy with long hair in a coat.

YouTube - Final Fantasy VII FMV Sephiroth Nibleheim Fire

Now in updated versions of that, at least from what I remember of AC, he looks a lot more feminine. Not sure though as my eyesight sucks.

Quote:

In The Reunion Files, Nojima had stated that Sephiroth's only true goal in the film is taking revenge on Cloud, who he saw as a rookie SOLDIER. His revival had been decided to occur early on in the project, but not the exact reasons or means of how he would be revived, and these details were decided at later dates. Sephiroth's dialogue was also made to sound profound, as "he thinks on a level higher than humans", and his hair and eyes were exceptionally difficult to animate. Various minor details were made to emphasize Sephiroth's other-worldly character; he was never made to blink, almost never grunted or breathed, and even in the heat of battle kept his voice calm and controlled. Nomura says that when creating Sephiroth, his appearance was set but he had trouble deciding what kind of voice he should have; once Toshiyuki Morikawa auditioned, Nomura knew he was exactly what he wanted. Morikawa also noted that, with Sephiroth's on-screen presence, he knew his final lines had to be done properly, and with input from the director, gave Sephiroth's iconic final words a sense that "he's not done yet".

And that's from here. :)
11-18-2009, 07:02 PM
Forsaken Lover

This is why I don't pay attention to the Compilation.
Not blinking and being calm during battle makes you otherworldly. Ugh.

Thanks for the info, though.
11-18-2009, 11:11 PM
Kyros

KUJA IS REALLY A WOMAN TRUE FACTS!!! It even does a close up on his lack of male genitalia in the game.
11-19-2009, 01:12 PM
Fynn

Quote:

Originally Posted by Kyros

KUJA IS REALLY A WOMAN TRUE FACTS!!! It even does a close up on his lack of male genitalia in the game.

Oh, that is so true. And take a look at his thin waist and wide hips :roll2