Ultimecia`s Physical Consciousness and the year of VIII (1572)

Artemisia/Ultimecia has symbols of Lions on her castle. Her protectors include Grievers and Iguions which both represent the Lion symbolism.
Just like Squall's and Rinoa interests in the Lion symbolism for bravery and love. Look here and here for more detail.

The Japanese name of Ultimecia is Arutimishia. Very similar to Artemisia.

If you have ever heard of Artemisia before, the link to her backstory is here
You'll realise that it will make sense as to why Ultimecia's Castle exists and for what reason, and why was Ultimecia crazy.

These are important elements within the game, yet have never been explained.

I tried to find more paintings of the painter, Francesco Furini, who painted Artemisia. To see if there's any more connection left. He lived in Florence. That's when I realised that Florence was the same city as where Leonardo da Vinci was born, I then looked for his paintings instead.

Here's what I found... a 'Bust of a warrior' painting by Leonardo da Vinci:

http://img25.imageshack.us/img25/1809/comut.jpg

Edea's head:

http://img130.imageshack.us/img130/3729/comwur.jpg

The heads look very similar. Not convinced? Look harder!
Not to mention the Lion on his armour. What could this mean? It could mean that Edea`s helmet and the Lions are connected.
In other words, Ultimecia made Edea look that way (the helmet) and her clothes. There's evidence to support this within the game: when Edea got rid of Ultimecia, she no longer holds the Helmet; she's back to Matron herself (long black hair and freer clothes). Matron and Edea looked very different. This proves that not only can Ultimecia control the consciousness of a being, but she can also create something physically.
But there's only one flaw... why didn't Ultimecia make Rinoa look that way like she did to Matron? Unless... *censored word* :rolleyes2:rolleyes2

More information about the painting is here.

And look at one of the quotes in the link:

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The drawing shows Leonardo studying the art of his teacher, Andrea Verrocchio. Giorgio Vasari's biography of Verrocchio in his Lives of the Artists (1550 and 1568) mentions two metal reliefs with profile portraits of Alexander the Great, leader of the Greeks, and Darius, the Persian king.

Which is pretty close to the date of Raine`s date on her Tombstone. Here's the link by FE.
This is very likely the year of VIII!

Interesting ...

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Which is pretty close to the date of Raine`s date on her Tombstone.

Ah, so this is a new R=U theory.

This has nothing to do with R=U.
Pay better attention next time!

But it does only R=U isn't Rinoa = Ultimecia but Raine = Ultimecia. It took you a long time, what with the Edea is the de Vinci painting on the side.

The Vinci painting (as well as Artemisia and her backstory) further proves FE's theory that the year of VIII is around the 1400-1600 mark.
And further proves that Ultimecia can create something so real while time-travelling.

Look at the painting again, the lion / the helmet are so identical to the ones in VIII. It's very obvious that the artists know the histories of the past and use them for VIII. And therefore, they become canon.

So we are merely determining what time period FFVIII's planet is, well, I fail to see the revelance, being it's a video game and the technology is 20th century to distant future, and that's matters more than the exact year. I'll give an example, I've always had the theory of the planet Gaia being the setting for multiple FFs, it has four ages, Chaotic Age(where you fight Chaos in FFI), Ancient Age(FFI), Dark Age(FFIII), and Modern Age(FFIX), the landscaping and established civilizations changing over time between the ages; however, putting an exact year on the times of the the three FFs in my theory is completely irrelevant imo, so long as you get the gist of what happened and what's happening, and what hasn't happened yet.

That warrior looks more like Freya than Edea...

I really have never believed that Artemisia is a correct name for Ultimecia, even thought some people calls her that way, even in the spanish version of the game she is called that way... But I think is only a misunderstanding of the jap translation... But I really don't believe they intended to make the name to sound like Artemisia, they probably just wanted to relate it to Ultima (a known concept in the series) to give a sound of power to her name... The word Artemisia is only similar to the jap pronunciation of Ultimecia, and nothing more... There is not another relationship between the words...
At least that is what I think. Even thought, I have never had the chance to know what do the developers say about this... Have anyone heard about this?

Anyways... I think is very interesting what you're exposing here... we can always find some curious and hidden connections in all kind of things!

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Originally Posted by rubah

That warrior looks more like Freya than Edea...

Woah, that's totally true! His helmet is very similar to Freya's one... =O

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Originally Posted by Darth Cid

So we are merely determining what time period FFVIII's planet is, well, I fail to see the revelance, being it's a video game and the technology is 20th century to distant future, and that's matters more than the exact year. I'll give an example, I've always had the theory of the planet Gaia being the setting for multiple FFs, it has four ages, Chaotic Age(where you fight Chaos in FFI), Ancient Age(FFI), Dark Age(FFIII), and Modern Age(FFIX), the landscaping and established civilizations changing over time between the ages; however, putting an exact year on the times of the the three FFs in my theory is completely irrelevant imo, so long as you get the gist of what happened and what's happening, and what hasn't happened yet.

Doesn't matter if it's 20th century or not, VIII isn't like our world.

FF VIII isn't real? :(

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Woah, that's totally true! His helmet is very similar to Freya's one...

Edea and Freya are one in the same!?

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Originally Posted by Christmas

FF VIII isn't real? :(

We are living on it, aren't we ??

Yes

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Originally Posted by Serapy

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Originally Posted by Christmas

FF VIII isn't real? :(

We are living on it, aren't we ??

We're living on Earth. Not FFVII, not, FFVIII, not even FFIX. Earth, where we hadn't invented warp technology for the Vulcans to discover us.

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Originally Posted by Darth Cid

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Originally Posted by Serapy

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Originally Posted by Christmas

FF VIII isn't real? :(

We are living on it, aren't we ??

We're living on Earth. Not FFVII, not, FFVIII, not even FFIX. Earth, where we hadn't invented warp technology for the Vulcans to discover us.

You don't get the metaphor, do you?

There is no real similarity between Alexander's headdress and Edea's skullcap aside from the existence of visors which look nothing alike.

Yet again, you base a theory on nothing, overthink that nothing, then insist it must be so.

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Ultimecia made Edea look that way (the helmet) and her clothes. There's evidence to support this within the game

Of course she did. She was possessing her.

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when Edea got rid of Ultimecia, she no longer holds the Helmet; she's back to Matron herself (long black hair and freer clothes).

She looks exactly the same to me when she joined your party and was at the lighthouse with Cid.

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Originally Posted by Depression Moon

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Ultimecia made Edea look that way (the helmet) and her clothes. There's evidence to support this within the game

Of course she did. She was possessing her.

she possessed Rinoa and yet her appearance didn't change

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Originally Posted by Depression Moon

She looks exactly the same to me when she joined your party and was at the lighthouse with Cid.

A part of Ultimecia is still inside her at that point. Edea was just containing her.

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There is no real similarity between Alexander's headdress and Edea's skullcap aside from the existence of visors which look nothing alike.

If you look hard, you will sense some similarity.

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Yet again, you base a theory on nothing, overthink that nothing, then insist it must be so.

So, the developers have created thier own stuff in VIII without any influence from real life... I don't think that is possible. If it's true, then they are like winning the mega lottery... because a lot of things in VIII actually resemble a lot of things in real life

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she possessed Rinoa and yet her appearance didn't change

She wasn't in Rinoa for an extended period of time like with Edea. I believe it was only a few hours or maybe less. Edea it was probably a month or more. In that time she could buy all the clothes and gear she wanted for her appearance in that time period, how was she going to find evil wardrobe in space?

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A part of Ultimecia is still inside her at that point. Edea was just containing her.

You didn't read the lighthouse part did you?

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she possessed Rinoa and yet her appearance didn't change

I saw no changing room for possessed Rinoa to just waltz over to.

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A part of Ultimecia is still inside her at that point. Edea was just containing her.

Or Edea just didn't change clothes yet.

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If you look hard, you will sense some similarity.

Why would we care? If I liked FFVIII I wouldn't be paying attention like that to care, and this is the most I've ever posting in an FFVIII forum I think, because I'm not a big fan of this one.

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So, the developers have created thier own stuff in VIII without any influence from real life... I don't think that is possible. If it's true, then they are like winning the mega lottery... because a lot of things in VIII actually resemble a lot of things in real life

Look it's obvious all video games have influences that they reference, that is completely irrelevant to whatever theory you're pushing, unless you can somehow connect Rinoa with the price of tea in China and connect it to Ultimecia and at this point your doesn't prove anything.

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Originally Posted by Depression Moon

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she possessed Rinoa and yet her appearance didn't change

She wasn't in Rinoa for an extended period of time like with Edea. I believe it was only a few hours or maybe less. Edea it was probably a month or more. In that time she could buy all the clothes and gear she wanted for her appearance in that time period, how was she going to find evil wardrobe in space?

She can manifest looks, you can see her head evolving in the opening scene. No need to buy clothes.

There are 3 reasons why Rinoa wasn't re-adjusted: 1) Square didn't have enough time to create a new look. 2) She's Ultimecia. 3) Rinoa is stronger than Matron, hence she can resist some force of Ultimecia; note her moonwalking side-effect...

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Originally Posted by [QUOTE=Depression Moon

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A part of Ultimecia is still inside her at that point. Edea was just containing her.

You didn't read the lighthouse part did you?

After playing this game for years and you're asking me this question? How insulting!

Anyway, like I said before. It wouldn't make sense if Edea instantly changes her appearance right back to Matron right after her defeat... that will cause more problems! But she did change back to Matron later in the game eventually

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Originally Posted by Serapy

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Originally Posted by Depression Moon

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she possessed Rinoa and yet her appearance didn't change

She wasn't in Rinoa for an extended period of time like with Edea. I believe it was only a few hours or maybe less. Edea it was probably a month or more. In that time she could buy all the clothes and gear she wanted for her appearance in that time period, how was she going to find evil wardrobe in space?

There are 3 reasons why Rinoa wasn't re-adjusted: 1) Square didn't have enough time to create a new look. 2) She's Ultimecia. 3) Rinoa is stronger than Matron, hence she can resist some force of Ultimecia; note her moonwalking side-effect...

Or once again, no time or place to change into the clothes.

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Originally Posted by Serapy

she possessed Rinoa and yet her appearance didn't change

Rinoa was possessed for ten minutes. Edea for at least a month, probably several years. She had time to buy a warddrobe and flex her fashion muscles.

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Originally Posted by Depression Moon

A part of Ultimecia is still inside her at that point. Edea was just containing her.

PROVE IT. Edea was devoid of her powers by this point.

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If you look hard, you will sense some similarity.

The visors are pointy. THAT'S IT.

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So, the developers have created thier own stuff in VIII without any influence from real life... I don't think that is possible. If it's true, then they are like winning the mega lottery... because a lot of things in VIII actually resemble a lot of things in real life

You are not really valid point and i'm impressed by your thinking.ning what I said, you disingenuous git. I said EDEA'S HEADDRESS does not resemble ALEXANDER'S HELMET. I said NOTHING in such grand sweeping terms.

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Originally Posted by Serapy

She can manifest looks, you can see her head evolving in the opening scene. No need to buy clothes.

Or maybe it's something you need time and concentration and not a smurfed up possession to do. Or it's something the headdress does.

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There are 3 reasons why Rinoa wasn't re-adjusted: 1) Square didn't have enough time to create a new look.

Or Ulti can't change the appearance of her possessees at will.

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2) She's Ultimecia.

No. Just no.
And Ultimecia can't change the appearance of her possessees at will.

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3) Rinoa is stronger than Matron, hence she can resist some force of Ultimecia; note her moonwalking side-effect...

Or Ultimecia can't can't change the appearance of her possessees at will.

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After playing this game for years and you're asking me this question? How insulting!

Anyway, like I said before. It wouldn't make sense if Edea instantly changes her appearance right back to Matron right after her defeat... that will cause more problems!

How?

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But she did change back to Matron later in the game eventually

Yes, and how does this prove she was being changed by Ulti?

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Originally Posted by Ryushikaze

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Originally Posted by Serapy

she possessed Rinoa and yet her appearance didn't change

Rinoa was possessed for ten minutes. Edea for at least a month, probably several years.

You can apply this explanation as to why Edea doesn't revert back to her normal look instantly, too.

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Originally Posted by Ryushikaze

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Originally Posted by Depression Moon

A part of Ultimecia is still inside her at that point. Edea was just containing her.

PROVE IT. Edea was devoid of her powers by this point.

It's one of the explanations as to why this is the case. Matron doesn't change back to normal instantly after the defeat could be due to the side-effect... it's like the withdrawal process of not using drugs for a certain amount of time.

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Originally Posted by Ryushikaze

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If you look hard, you will sense some similarity.

The visors are pointy. THAT'S IT.

I'd agree with you if VIII didn't include anything that's from real life things - arts, paintings and histories.
Ultimecia's castle and Artemisia's castle look quite identical to each other, not to mention thier reasonings...

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Originally Posted by Ryushikaze

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So, the developers have created thier own stuff in VIII without any influence from real life... I don't think that is possible. If it's true, then they are like winning the mega lottery... because a lot of things in VIII actually resemble a lot of things in real life

You are not really valid point and i'm impressed by your thinking.ning what I said, you disingenuous git. I said EDEA'S HEADDRESS does not resemble ALEXANDER'S HELMET. I said NOTHING in such grand sweeping terms.

I'm a disingenuous git now? That's pretty new to me! Thank you, and if you don't mind, I'll add it to my 'lol getting names' vocabulary!

My response was directed at one of your post, quote:

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Yet again, you base a theory on nothing, overthink that nothing, then insist it must be so.

Why do I have to find evidence that this VIII model looks the same as a model in real life? That's impossible! So, if they look exactly the same, do you apply common sense to this? That they are in fact the same...?

Note- When Ultimecia leaves Edea in this time period, you can assume that she's no longer connected with her at the moment. Yet she still has the same appearance.

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Originally Posted by Serapy

You can apply this explanation as to why Edea doesn't revert back to her normal look instantly, too.

Or she doesn't change clothes. Aside from the scarring to her face, which was corruption by the sorceress power, and which may or may not have reverted instantly, everything else is her clothing.

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It's one of the explanations as to why this is the case. Matron doesn't change back to normal instantly after the defeat could be due to the side-effect... it's like the withdrawal process of not using drugs for a certain amount of time.

In other words, YOU MADE IT UP.

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I'd agree with you if VIII didn't include anything that's from real life things - arts, paintings and histories.
Ultimecia's castle and Artemisia's castle look quite identical to each other, not to mention thier reasonings...

Such arts as? I'm seeing claims here, but not seeing you backing them up with proof. The world of FFVIII is not ours. Similar items to ours do not make it share our history any more than the Texas sign in FF7 means it's our world.

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Originally Posted by Ryushikaze

I'm a disingenuous git now? That's pretty new to me! Thank you, and if you don't mind, I'll add it to my 'lol getting names' vocabulary!

No, bridgedweller, you are being disingenuous. This isn't name calling. I'm telling you what you're doing is really valid point and i'm impressed by your thinking.ning, an inherently dishonest act.

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Yet again, you base a theory on nothing, overthink that nothing, then insist it must be so.

Why do I have to find evidence that this VIII model looks the same as a model in real life? That's impossible! So, if they look exactly the same, do you apply common sense to this? That they are in fact the same...?

You have to find evidence because that is your claim and the model does not look the same as the helm you claim it looks like. You see a similiarity where none exists.

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Note- When Ultimecia leaves Edea in this time period, you can assume that she's no longer connected with her at the moment. Yet she still has the same appearance.

Which only supports your idea if your idea is already assumed true. Circular reasoning at its best.

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Originally Posted by Ryushikaze

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Originally Posted by Serapy

You can apply this explanation as to why Edea doesn't revert back to her normal look instantly, too.

Or she doesn't change clothes. Aside from the scarring to her face, which was corruption by the sorceress power, and which may or may not have reverted instantly, everything else is her clothing.

We don't have magic in reality, but we can have clothes.
If VIII has magic that can create anything, it wouldn't make sense if they use clothes for thier appearances.

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Originally Posted by Ryushikaze

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It's one of the explanations as to why this is the case. Matron doesn't change back to normal instantly after the defeat could be due to the side-effect... it's like the withdrawal process of not using drugs for a certain amount of time.

In other words, YOU MADE IT UP.

No, I was trying to use an analogy.

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Originally Posted by Ryushikaze

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I'd agree with you if VIII didn't include anything that's from real life things - arts, paintings and histories.
Ultimecia's castle and Artemisia's castle look quite identical to each other, not to mention thier reasonings...

Such arts as? I'm seeing claims here, but not seeing you backing them up with proof. The world of FFVIII is not ours. Similar items to ours do not make it share our history any more than the Texas sign in FF7 means it's our world.

It's silly and wrong to claim proof that two identical arts are just... that identical to each other.

VIII is not something that's 100% fool proof. Claiming proof on something other than dialogues is ridiculous.

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Originally Posted by Ryushikaze

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Originally Posted by Ryushikaze

I'm a disingenuous git now? That's pretty new to me! Thank you, and if you don't mind, I'll add it to my 'lol getting names' vocabulary!

No, bridgedweller, you are being disingenuous. This isn't name calling. I'm telling you what you're doing is really valid point and i'm impressed by your thinking.ning, an inherently dishonest act.

Git is a 'noun' and provides the meaning of 'a person, especially a man, who is stupid or unpleasant'.

Disingenuous is an adjective, and can be used with any noun. Hence, you called me a disingenuous git. That's name calling, or a personal attack.

You've called me strange names - such words that don't exist on the dictionary. The answer is obvious, isn't it?

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Originally Posted by Ryushikaze

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Yet again, you base a theory on nothing, overthink that nothing, then insist it must be so.

Why do I have to find evidence that this VIII model looks the same as a model in real life? That's impossible! So, if they look exactly the same, do you apply common sense to this? That they are in fact the same...?

You have to find evidence because that is your claim and the model does not look the same as the helm you claim it looks like. You see a similiarity where none exists.

I'm not claiming anything, my friend.

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Originally Posted by Ryushikaze

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Note- When Ultimecia leaves Edea in this time period, you can assume that she's no longer connected with her at the moment. Yet she still has the same appearance.

Which only supports your idea if your idea is already assumed true. Circular reasoning at its best.

I'm not going into a circle and repeat that something must be true.

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Originally Posted by Serapy

We don't have magic in reality, but we can have clothes.If VIII has magic that can create anything, it wouldn't make sense if they use clothes for thier appearances.

Yes. Yes it would make perfect sense to use clothing instead of constantly wasting their energy like that.

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No, I was trying to use an analogy.

Instead of answering my direct request to prove it, you offered an analogy. You did not offer proof. Again, I say, you made it up. Analogies do not substantiate extraordinary claims.

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It's silly and wrong to claim proof that two identical arts are just... that identical to each other.

VIII is not something that's 100% fool proof. Claiming proof on something other than dialogues is ridiculous.

Identical art? I'm seeing more claiming and still no proving, Serapy...

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Git is a 'noun' and provides the meaning of 'a person, especially a man, who is stupid or unpleasant'.

Disingenuous is an adjective, and can be used with any noun. Hence, you called me a disingenuous git. That's name calling, or a personal attack.

No, it was a summation of you acting disingenuous by really valid point and i'm impressed by your thinking.ning, and of your unpleasant attitude.

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You've called me strange names - such words that don't exist on the dictionary. The answer is obvious, isn't it?

That I find your arguments specious, your attitude infuriating and insane, and your demeanor unpleasant, and I make no bones about hiding any of this?

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I'm not claiming anything, my friend.

Either you're lying, in which case, my calling you disingenuous is fully warranted, or you aren't you have absolutely no idea what you're doing.

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I'm not going into a circle and repeat that something must be true.

Circular reasoning, dweller, is arguing using a conclusion in support of itself. In this instance, arguing that Edea's appearance changing gradually instead of suddenly is only evidence of your claim that Ultimecia's power changed Edea and that there is still a piece of Ultimecia inside Edea if you assume those things to be true. Otherwise, there are far simpler, far more parsimonious explanations for Edea's appearance which do not require magic cosmetics and using magic instead of clothes.

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Originally Posted by Ryushikaze

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Originally Posted by Serapy

We don't have magic in reality, but we can have clothes.If VIII has magic that can create anything, it wouldn't make sense if they use clothes for thier appearances.

Yes. Yes it would make perfect sense to use clothing instead of constantly wasting their energy like that.

Ultimecia's used a huge amount of energy travelling through time. So, I don't see why not.

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Originally Posted by Ryushikaze

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No, I was trying to use an analogy.

Instead of answering my direct request to prove it, you offered an analogy. You did not offer proof. Again, I say, you made it up. Analogies do not substantiate extraordinary claims.

I never once said or claimed that they are absolutely the same thing.

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Originally Posted by Ryushikaze

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It's silly and wrong to claim proof that two identical arts are just... that identical to each other.

VIII is not something that's 100% fool proof. Claiming proof on something other than dialogues is ridiculous.

Identical art? I'm seeing more claiming and still no proving, Serapy...

You have used common sense to claim something in VIII (Cid loving Edea), so why not apply the same sense to the art works? Use your eyes, my friend. Even then, you have claimed that they don't alike. It's still illogical to ask for proof that they are actually alike.

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Originally Posted by Ryushikaze

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Git is a 'noun' and provides the meaning of 'a person, especially a man, who is stupid or unpleasant'.

Disingenuous is an adjective, and can be used with any noun. Hence, you called me a disingenuous git. That's name calling, or a personal attack.

No, it was a summation of you acting disingenuous by really valid point and i'm impressed by your thinking.ning, and of your unpleasant attitude.

I beg to differ. Your attitude is a bit worse, me thinks.

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Originally Posted by Ryushikaze

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You've called me strange names - such words that don't exist on the dictionary. The answer is obvious, isn't it?

That I find your arguments specious, your attitude infuriating and insane, and your demeanor unpleasant, and I make no bones about hiding any of this?

Honestly, if you knew what would happen after accusing me being a troll, why feel the need to keep arguing?

I think there's a conspiracy to all of this. When Squall of Seed, Sir B and TOK started appearing out of no where, you came on.

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Originally Posted by Ryushikaze

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I'm not claiming anything, my friend.

Either you're lying, in which case, my calling you disingenuous is fully warranted, or you aren't you have absolutely no idea what you're doing.

I have no idea what am I doing. Please elaborate?

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Originally Posted by Ryushikaze

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I'm not going into a circle and repeat that something must be true.

Circular reasoning, dweller, is arguing using a conclusion in support of itself. In this instance, arguing that Edea's appearance changing gradually instead of suddenly is only evidence of your claim that Ultimecia's power changed Edea and that there is still a piece of Ultimecia inside Edea if you assume those things to be true. Otherwise, there are far simpler, far more parsimonious explanations for Edea's appearance which do not require magic cosmetics and using magic instead of clothes.

I think Rinoa broke that circle... since her appearance didn't change when she was captive of Ultimecia.

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Originally Posted by Serapy

Ultimecia's used a huge amount of energy travelling through time. So, I don't see why not.

Even if she did, which we don't know, she did so for a purpose. Not to look pretty.

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I never once said or claimed that they are absolutely the same thing.

Which is immaterial. You still need to prove it.

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You have used common sense to claim something in VIII (Cid loving Edea), so why not apply the same sense to the art works? Use your eyes, my friend. Even then, you have claimed that they don't alike. It's still illogical to ask for proof that they are actually alike.

Considering you haven't said what FFVIII art and what real world art you're talking about, it's illogical for you to ask me to compare them for myself. Unless it's the pictures in this thread, which aren't identical IN THE SLIGHTEST.

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I beg to differ. Your attitude is a bit worse, me thinks.

I'm at least intellectually honest, chewtoy.

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Honestly, if you knew what would happen after accusing me being a troll, why feel the need to keep arguing?

I think there's a conspiracy to all of this. When Squall of Seed, Sir B and TOK started appearing out of no where, you came on.

And again, you see patterns where none exist.

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I have no idea what am I doing. Please elaborate?

You are claiming things. That is the very heart of what you're doing.

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I think Rinoa broke that circle... since her appearance didn't change when she was captive of Ultimecia.

You still do not understand what is meant by circular, here. Or simply refuse to acknowledge.

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Originally Posted by Ryushikaze

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Originally Posted by Serapy

Ultimecia's used a huge amount of energy travelling through time. So, I don't see why not.

Even if she did, which we don't know, she did so for a purpose. Not to look pretty.

Another example - her taking a gigantic thing out of Squall's mind. That must have taken her a lot of energy to waste.

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Originally Posted by Ryushikaze

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I never once said or claimed that they are absolutely the same thing.

Which is immaterial. You still need to prove it.

I've shown two arts and then voiced my opinion, and that's about it.

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Originally Posted by Ryushikaze

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You have used common sense to claim something in VIII (Cid loving Edea), so why not apply the same sense to the art works? Use your eyes, my friend. Even then, you have claimed that they don't alike. It's still illogical to ask for proof that they are actually alike.

Considering you haven't said what FFVIII art and what real world art you're talking about, it's illogical for you to ask me to compare them for myself. Unless it's the pictures in this thread, which aren't identical IN THE SLIGHTEST.

You knew that it's impossible to prove this - and when you asked me to prove it, all I could sugguested was for you to compare between them. If they don't look alike to you, fair enough.

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Originally Posted by Ryushikaze

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I beg to differ. Your attitude is a bit worse, me thinks.

I'm at least intellectually honest, chewtoy.

So am I.

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Originally Posted by Ryushikaze

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Honestly, if you knew what would happen after accusing me being a troll, why feel the need to keep arguing?

I think there's a conspiracy to all of this. When Squall of Seed, Sir B and TOK started appearing out of no where, you came on.

And again, you see patterns where none exist.

Stop denying it.

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Originally Posted by Ryushikaze

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I have no idea what am I doing. Please elaborate?

You are claiming things. That is the very heart of what you're doing.

So, if I put a 'K' character here. I claim the 'K' character?

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Originally Posted by Ryushikaze

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I think Rinoa broke that circle... since her appearance didn't change when she was captive of Ultimecia.

You still do not understand what is meant by circular, here. Or simply refuse to acknowledge.

Ultimecia gives her own power to Edea at the beginning. At that point, she had black clothes and long hair. And when she was given this power, she looks still the same. This proves that her appearance doesn't change instantly after being given a power and further proves that her appearance doesn't change while being not possessed.

Years later, we see Edea again at Deling. This time, she was possessed by Ultimecia and her appearance is different. In one of the FMVs, her head was seen evolving.

Squall and his party can change thier appearances by wearing different clothes. Not through regular magic.

Since Ultimecia is in control of Edea's mind, she can do whatever she wants. Were her golden shapes behind her back made of human material? Or were they come from sorceress magic? Apart from her head that we saw from the FMV.

Are the faces of Matron and Edea a bit different?

Then when Edea got rid of Ultimecia after her defeat. Her appearance is still there. I'm assuming that she still can do the head thing (her helmet is still there after her defeat.) At the ending, she's now got her old appearance back. I'm guessing she removed them by herself. Threw them in bin can or something. I guess this proves that her appearance is made of human material, since they didn't disappear. If Ultimecia got rid of, her blood-magic-made-of-clothes should disappear too.

Conclusion: Since I don't know when exactly did Ultimecia change Edea's appearance, but I can assume that she changed it when she was first possessed. When she was possessed, nobody's done something about it. This means that she had better freedom, she can do anything without someone interfering her. She can buy clothes or whatever.

Ultimecia knowing that she can possess two persons (Rinoa and Edea.) She prefers Edea. She used Rinoa to do dirty jobs, such as freeing Adel, and that's it. If Rinoa is a slave to Ultimecia and Ultimecia knowing that the public believes the new Edea, why should she change Rinoa's appearance? I don't think there's any other purpose why would Ultimecia possess Rinoa.

All of this shows that if Rinoa was possessed by a different person after the game, her appearance can be changed if she wants to.
If Edea and Matron's faces looked different. Then Rinoa and X faces MAY look different.

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Originally Posted by Serapy

Another example - her taking a gigantic thing out of Squall's mind. That must have taken her a lot of energy to waste.

Which she did for direct tactical benefit. Not for prettying herself up.

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I've shown two arts and then voiced my opinion, and that's about it.

And those two arts are not at all alike. Hence you cannot based anything on them being 'identical' when they aren't.

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You knew that it's impossible to prove this - and when you asked me to prove it, all I could sugguested was for you to compare between them. If they don't look alike to you, fair enough.

I'm noting you still have not said specified any art in FFVIII or the real world aside from the thread opener, which are categorically not identical.

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So am I.

If you are not being intellectually dishonest by attacking strawmen of my arguments, then you simply cannot follow my arguments.

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Stop denying it.

I don't need to deny 'it', there is no 'it.'

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So, if I put a 'K' character here. I claim the 'K' character?

Are you being willfully obtuse? You are CLAIMING Ultimecia wastes her power changing Edea's appearance. You are CLAIMING things every time you make one of these threads.

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Ultimecia gives her own power to Edea at the beginning. At that point, she had black clothes and long hair. And when she was given this power, she looks still the same. This proves that her appearance doesn't change instantly after being given a power and further proves that her appearance doesn't change while being not possessed.

Or it doesn't prove anything since we don't see when Edea changes.

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Years later, we see Edea again at Deling. This time, she was possessed by Ultimecia and her appearance is different. In one of the FMVs, her head was seen evolving.

...Her skullcap was seen changing. Not her head. Her skullcap. Her hat.

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Squall and his party can change thier appearances by wearing different clothes. Not through regular magic.

Since Ultimecia is in control of Edea's mind, she can do whatever she wants. Were her golden shapes behind her back made of human material? Or were they come from sorceress magic? Apart from her head that we saw from the FMV.

Why assume her clothing is magic based AT ALL?

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Are the faces of Matron and Edea a bit different?

We never see the left side of Edea's face in Hi resolution, so for all we know, she still does bear her sorceress's corruption without her power. Other than that, they are the same.

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Then when Edea got rid of Ultimecia after her defeat. Her appearance is still there. I'm assuming that she still can do the head thing (her helmet is still there after her defeat.) At the ending, she's now got her old appearance back. I'm guessing she removed them by herself. Threw them in bin can or something. I guess this proves that her appearance is made of human material, since they didn't disappear. If Ultimecia got rid of, her blood-magic-made-of-clothes should disappear too.

Yes, though that logic should not be necessary in the first place since clothing is more parsimonious explanation.

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Conclusion: Since I don't know when exactly did Ultimecia change Edea's appearance, but I can assume that she changed it when she was first possessed. When she was possessed, nobody's done something about it. This means that she had better freedom, she can do anything without someone interfering her. She can buy clothes or whatever.

Ultimecia knowing that she can possess two persons (Rinoa and Edea.) She prefers Edea. She used Rinoa to do dirty jobs, such as freeing Adel, and that's it. If Rinoa is a slave to Ultimecia and Ultimecia knowing that the public believes the new Edea, why should she change Rinoa's appearance? I don't think there's any other purpose why would Ultimecia possess Rinoa.

She can't possess Edea because Edea isn't a sorceress any longer- or even if she can, Edea isn't useful to her, not being a sorceress any longer.

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All of this shows that if Rinoa was possessed by a different person after the game, her appearance can be changed if she wants to.
If Edea and Matron's faces looked different. Then Rinoa and X faces MAY look different.

But Edea's face looks the same aside from the minor scarring of the corruption. You can absolutely recognize her as the same person both in and out of the outfit, from the FMV she's introduced in to the final sequences.

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Originally Posted by Ryushikaze

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Originally Posted by Serapy

Another example - her taking a gigantic thing out of Squall's mind. That must have taken her a lot of energy to waste.

Which she did for direct tactical benefit. Not for prettying herself up.

It's not like she uses free energy to pull something out of someone's head. And it's not like she uses free energy to make her head look that cool.

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Originally Posted by Ryushikaze

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I've shown two arts and then voiced my opinion, and that's about it.

And those two arts are not at all alike. Hence you cannot based anything on them being 'identical' when they aren't.

Two different opinions arguing with each other? That's great!

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Originally Posted by Ryushikaze

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You knew that it's impossible to prove this - and when you asked me to prove it, all I could sugguested was for you to compare between them. If they don't look alike to you, fair enough.

I'm noting you still have not said specified any art in FFVIII or the real world aside from the thread opener, which are categorically not identical.

You have played VIII before, so, you must have seen something that's not dialogueous. A lof of them, why do I require the task to represent all of them here. And no, I'm not claiming anything.

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Originally Posted by Ryushikaze

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So am I.

If you are not being intellectually dishonest by attacking strawmen of my arguments, then you simply cannot follow my arguments.

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Stop denying it.

I don't need to deny 'it', there is no 'it.'

Nothingness can't exist.

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Originally Posted by Ryushikaze

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So, if I put a 'K' character here. I claim the 'K' character?

Are you being willfully obtuse? You are CLAIMING Ultimecia wastes her power changing Edea's appearance. You are CLAIMING things every time you make one of these threads.

Wait, Ultimecia changed the way how her head looks by using nothingness? So, the obvious answer is... magic.

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Originally Posted by Ryushikaze

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Ultimecia gives her own power to Edea at the beginning. At that point, she had black clothes and long hair. And when she was given this power, she looks still the same. This proves that her appearance doesn't change instantly after being given a power and further proves that her appearance doesn't change while being not possessed.

Or it doesn't prove anything since we don't see when Edea changes.

It proves that she didn't change instantly after a power is given to herself.

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Originally Posted by Ryushikaze

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Years later, we see Edea again at Deling. This time, she was possessed by Ultimecia and her appearance is different. In one of the FMVs, her head was seen evolving.

...Her skullcap was seen changing. Not her head. Her skullcap. Her hat.

There's skull on her head?

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Originally Posted by Ryushikaze

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Squall and his party can change thier appearances by wearing different clothes. Not through regular magic.

Since Ultimecia is in control of Edea's mind, she can do whatever she wants. Were her golden shapes behind her back made of human material? Or were they come from sorceress magic? Apart from her head that we saw from the FMV.

Why assume her clothing is magic based AT ALL?

Are you implying that her changing the way her head looks is made of human material?

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Originally Posted by Ryushikaze

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Are the faces of Matron and Edea a bit different?

We never see the left side of Edea's face in Hi resolution, so for all we know, she still does bear her sorceress's corruption without her power. Other than that, they are the same.

Why does the left side of her face have to be important? Aren't they just like mirrored?

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Originally Posted by Ryushikaze

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Then when Edea got rid of Ultimecia after her defeat. Her appearance is still there. I'm assuming that she still can do the head thing (her helmet is still there after her defeat.) At the ending, she's now got her old appearance back. I'm guessing she removed them by herself. Threw them in bin can or something. I guess this proves that her appearance is made of human material, since they didn't disappear. If Ultimecia got rid of, her blood-magic-made-of-clothes should disappear too.

Yes, though that logic should not be necessary in the first place since clothing is more parsimonious explanation.

Doesn't explain the animations she did in the FMV, though.

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Originally Posted by Ryushikaze

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Conclusion: Since I don't know when exactly did Ultimecia change Edea's appearance, but I can assume that she changed it when she was first possessed. When she was possessed, nobody's done something about it. This means that she had better freedom, she can do anything without someone interfering her. She can buy clothes or whatever.

Ultimecia knowing that she can possess two persons (Rinoa and Edea.) She prefers Edea. She used Rinoa to do dirty jobs, such as freeing Adel, and that's it. If Rinoa is a slave to Ultimecia and Ultimecia knowing that the public believes the new Edea, why should she change Rinoa's appearance? I don't think there's any other purpose why would Ultimecia possess Rinoa.

She can't possess Edea because Edea isn't a sorceress any longer- or even if she can, Edea isn't useful to her, not being a sorceress any longer.

Edea looked calm when she was possessed. But when Rinoa was possessed, she looked like she was sleepwalking. And these holographic versions of herself behind her.

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Originally Posted by Ryushikaze

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All of this shows that if Rinoa was possessed by a different person after the game, her appearance can be changed if she wants to.
If Edea and Matron's faces looked different. Then Rinoa and X faces MAY look different.

But Edea's face looks the same aside from the minor scarring of the corruption. You can absolutely recognize her as the same person both in and out of the outfit, from the FMV she's introduced in to the final sequences.

http://img8.imageshack.us/img8/3672/46261281.jpg

So, she used magic to shorten her hair, used magic to change her head, and used magic to changer the colours of her eyes. Used human material for the rest of her appearance.

http://img402.imageshack.us/img402/9648/93396051.jpg

How can her sheeps hold a huge amount of hair? It was definitely magic.

Well, they don't look exactly the same.

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Originally Posted by Serapy

It's not like she uses free energy to pull something out of someone's head. And it's not like she uses free energy to make her head look that cool.

Exactly, it would be a pointless waste of Ultimecia's energy.

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Two different opinions arguing with each other? That's great!

Except my position 'Those arts are not alike' is easily born of looking at the damn things.

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You have played VIII before, so, you must have seen something that's not dialogueous. A lof of them, why do I require the task to represent all of them here. And no, I'm not claiming anything.

Because you suffer the burden of proof in your role as the positive claimant. And yes, you are making claims.

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Nothingness can't exist.

Which is a non sequitor to the point that there's no conspiracy here and you're just paranoid.

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Wait, Ultimecia changed the way how her head looks by using nothingness? So, the obvious answer is... magic.

But she's not changing how her head looks. She's changing her skullcap and packing her hair inside said skullcap.

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It proves that she didn't change instantly after a power is given to herself.

Which doesn't go any further to proving your claim.

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There's skull on her head?

'Skullcap' meaning her hat. Her HAT changes, not her face.

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Are you implying that her changing the way her head looks is made of human material?

I'm saying that there's such a thing as a 'magic item' and requires no use of Edea or Ultimecia's magic at all.

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Why does the left side of her face have to be important? Aren't they just like mirrored?

The left side of Edea's face is the only side seen with sorceress corruption.

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Doesn't explain the animations she did in the FMV, though.

The visor retracting is part of the skullcap and her telekinesis packed her hair underneath her hat.

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Edea looked calm when she was possessed. But when Rinoa was possessed, she looked like she was sleepwalking. And these holographic versions of herself behind her.

For all we know, Edea had a similar reaction the first time she was possessed. But again, this doesn't show that Ultimecia can possess multiple people at one time.

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http://img8.imageshack.us/img8/3672/46261281.jpg

So, she used magic to shorten her hair, used magic to change her head, and used magic to changer the colours of her eyes. Used human material for the rest of her appearance.

She didn't shorten her hair, she packed it inside her hat, the same as people do when they hide actual hair under wigs.

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http://img402.imageshack.us/img402/9648/93396051.jpg

How can her sheeps hold a huge amount of hair? It was definitely magic.

Hair is massively compressable, and you can shove a lot of it under a wig or skullcap.

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Well, they don't look exactly the same.

They look as close as a frontal shot and a side view will allow.

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Originally Posted by Ryushikaze

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Originally Posted by Serapy

It's not like she uses free energy to pull something out of someone's head. And it's not like she uses free energy to make her head look that cool.

Exactly, it would be a pointless waste of Ultimecia's energy.

Come on, that's a bit extreme. I don't think it would be pointless as she will refill her power later, anyway.

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Originally Posted by Ryushikaze

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Two different opinions arguing with each other? That's great!

Except my position 'Those arts are not alike' is easily born of looking at the damn things.

Then there's no reason to add that as a part of your previous counterclaim.

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Originally Posted by Ryushikaze

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You have played VIII before, so, you must have seen something that's not dialogueous. A lof of them, why do I require the task to represent all of them here. And no, I'm not claiming anything.

Because you suffer the burden of proof in your role as the positive claimant. And yes, you are making claims.

Same goes for you.

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Originally Posted by Ryushikaze

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Nothingness can't exist.

Which is a non sequitor to the point that there's no conspiracy here and you're just paranoid.

How is this a conspiracy? There's nothing bad or illegal about it. It's about adding some emphasis on the VIII plot. In my opinion, anyway.

And no, I'm not paranoid. I'm exicted.

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Originally Posted by Ryushikaze

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Wait, Ultimecia changed the way how her head looks by using nothingness? So, the obvious answer is... magic.

But she's not changing how her head looks. She's changing her skullcap and packing her hair inside said skullcap.

That was obviously done by magic.

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Originally Posted by Ryushikaze

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It proves that she didn't change instantly after a power is given to herself.

Which doesn't go any further to proving your claim.

I have various claims. So, which one are you refering to?

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Originally Posted by Ryushikaze

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There's skull on her head?

'Skullcap' meaning her hat. Her HAT changes, not her face.

What about her eyes?

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Originally Posted by Ryushikaze

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Are you implying that her changing the way her head looks is made of human material?

I'm saying that there's such a thing as a 'magic item' and requires no use of Edea or Ultimecia's magic at all.

That can't be possible, because Squall and his party didn't do like what Edea did. Also, Rinoa doesn't count ... she's just like Edea.

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Originally Posted by Ryushikaze

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Why does the left side of her face have to be important? Aren't they just like mirrored?

The left side of Edea's face is the only side seen with sorceress corruption.

Her left side is essentially the same as her right side.

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Originally Posted by Ryushikaze

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Doesn't explain the animations she did in the FMV, though.

The visor retracting is part of the skullcap and her telekinesis packed her hair underneath her hat.

If her whole appearance was made of human material, then what justifies her 'skullcap' animation? So, it cannot be 100% human material.

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Originally Posted by Ryushikaze

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Edea looked calm when she was possessed. But when Rinoa was possessed, she looked like she was sleepwalking. And these holographic versions of herself behind her.

For all we know, Edea had a similar reaction the first time she was possessed. But again, this doesn't show that Ultimecia can possess multiple people at one time.

She possessed Rinoa at Deling, she looked like that. Then she possessed her in Space, she looked the same. How many times do it take to be possessed to look normal?

Rinoa looked very dangerous in Space. If you're near her, you get a flash and jump back.

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Originally Posted by Ryushikaze

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http://img8.imageshack.us/img8/3672/46261281.jpg

So, she used magic to shorten her hair, used magic to change her head, and used magic to changer the colours of her eyes. Used human material for the rest of her appearance.

She didn't shorten her hair, she packed it inside her hat, the same as people do when they hide actual hair under wigs.

Her actual hair is very long. I don't think that's enough to be hidden inside a shell... like one of the shells you would find on a beach. If you look at the animation, it looks like her hair was on fire; becoming smaller and smaller.

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Originally Posted by Ryushikaze

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http://img402.imageshack.us/img402/9648/93396051.jpg

How can her sheeps hold a huge amount of hair? It was definitely magic.

Hair is massively compressable, and you can shove a lot of it under a wig or skullcap.

Have you seen the top of her head? It looks like a bald head covered by some black silk to me, so it cannot be it.

QUIT TRY ON TO PUSH LOGIC AND REASONING AND SENSE ON FFVIII AND LOOK AT ME PUSHING LOGIC AND REASONING AND SENSE ON FFVIII WITH BAD LOGIC AND NONSENSE!1!one!eleven! *goes to live under bridge*

Look at the Vinci painting, he has short hair.
But Edea has long hair. Why? I think Square changed it cause they don't want to face lawsuits.

Yeah, the same goes with Squall looking like that weirdo singer, oh wait...

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Originally Posted by Serapy

Look at the Vinci painting, he has short hair.
But Edea has long hair. Why? I think Square changed it cause they don't want to face lawsuits.

Lawsuits.

From a hundreds of years dead italian painter?

No.

Oh, and there IS more than enough room in the skullcap to fit her hair inside, especially in the back.

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Originally Posted by Ryushikaze

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Originally Posted by Serapy

Look at the Vinci painting, he has short hair.
But Edea has long hair. Why? I think Square changed it cause they don't want to face lawsuits.

Lawsuits.

From a hundreds of years dead italian painter?

No.

Analogy, my friend. Why would they create the exact same thing as that painting is the answer.

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Oh, and there IS more than enough room in the skullcap to fit her hair inside, especially in the back.

The ending part of her hair being vacuumed is located at the back of her head.

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Originally Posted by Serapy

Analogy, my friend. Why would they create the exact same thing as that painting is the answer.

That is not an analogy.
And what they created isn't remotely like the sketch.

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The ending part of her hair being vacuumed is located at the back of her head.

Yes, and there's more than enough room to fit that hair back there.