Vaan. "Gay"
Kratos. "Heterosexual"
Why?
Discuss.
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Vaan. "Gay"
Kratos. "Heterosexual"
Why?
Discuss.
One's built like a twink? Only those with the utmost of either masculinity or boobage earn the people's love. Isn't it usually that way?
:O!All male viddy game characters should be gay, and the ladies lesbians. :love:
Which Kratos? Of the two that I can think of, they both actually had sex with women and produced offspring. Not that homosexual males can't do that, but it's not exactly in character.
Pretty much this.Quote:
One's built like a twink?
really it's because any man who is outwardly effeminate in anyway is determined by heterosexists to not be masculine enough "to take" a woman sexually and therefore must be a homosexual.
Vaan is a typical JRPG bishounen which means that he is a bit on the androgynous side in his looks.
Kratos is an American creation, based on the Ancient Greek mythos and the target audience is American male teenagers. While the Greeks may have been open to homosexuality, a young male American audience is less so. They have Kratos with a minigame to know over a vase while having sex "off screen" with a woman.
This may be a going off on a tangent.. but since the examples known to me (Vaan being one) of 'gay' male video game characters aren't explicitly homosexual, has there actually been a male video game character that was openly gay?
To answer the original question though, different cultures are perceived to expect different things from their male leads in video games. Big, built, macho men are the norm in Western developed games, particularly in a game like God of War where it's played out like an action movie. Maybe up at Squenix HQ, they thought players would be able to better fill the shoes of someone scrawnier and not particularly strong looking (because immersion in an RPG is arguably more important than in an action game). Characters like Vaan, Tidus, Zidane, Squall etc. all rise from fairly obscure beginnings to save the world and the players are supposed to feel like they are the protagonist and Squenix may not reckon that a Kratos-esque character design would achieve that feeling.
A few. Lots of lesbians. Transfolk even, sometimes.Quote:
Originally Posted by Mo-Nercy
None of them are portrayed in a very respectable manner at all, though.
Sort of like in comic books, but with less AIDS vampires.
there's some weapon dealer in shadow hearts that's homosexual.
Gay =! Homosexual.
Beyond that, he looks way too feminine. The general American audience will find this a bit awkward. I've seen a few video game characters that are gay males, but the few that exist are portrayed in the most cliche and stereotypical/generic mannerisms than you can possibly think of. Makoto from Enchanted Arms is an example of this. Just once I'd like to see a gay guy in any JRPG that acts like a "normal" guy [I use this term loosely, I think it's easy to figure out what I mean]. Zevran from Dragon Age is an example, though I'm irritated by the fact that he's so amoral, and it isn't a JRPG. Still, it's a baby step in the right direction I guess. I don't want to digress too much. Such a JRPG character may exist, but I haven't seen it yet.Quote:
Originally Posted by Xaven
You can't judge a character based on how they look. Zelos from Tales of Symphonia looks like a flamingo, but he can't stop flirting with anything that has boobies :p
The Other Kratos I was alluding to.Quote:
Originally Posted by qwertysaur
Go take it to GLAAD so they can put out an ACT UP! bulletin and we can all freak out that John Mayer used the F-word too.Quote:
Originally Posted by Khalin
The sad truth is that gay issues are not as a big deal in Japan, especially in politics. While you may have depictions of homosexual pairing in yaoi/BL they tend to be problematic for most gays. The whole seme-uke binary that is popular is a problem. I mean you also have bara but that hardly has the fanbase that yaoi/BL seems to have. So I'd say you'd be holding your breath if you want a good display of a gay character from Japan, unless they get CLAMP to write the plot then it will just have homosexual sub-text. :pQuote:
Originally Posted by KhalinBeyond that, he looks way too feminine. The general American audience will find this a bit awkward. I've seen a few video game characters that are gay males, but the few that exist are portrayed in the most cliche and stereotypical/generic mannerisms than you can possibly think of. Makoto from Enchanted Arms is an example of this. Just once I'd like to see a gay guy in any JRPG that acts like a "normal" guy [I use this term loosely, I think it's easy to figure out what I mean]. Zevran from Dragon Age is an example, though I'm irritated by the fact that he's so amoral, and it isn't a JRPG. Still, it's a baby step in the right direction I guess. I don't want to digress too much. Such a JRPG character may exist, but I haven't seen it yet.Quote:
Originally Posted by Xaven
As for Zevran, sexuality aside, he is pretty amoral to begin with. So it is natural that he is a bit of a slut. The problem is that is the only male Romantic option for a male character, which was taken with a mixed reaction (I wanted to dirty Alistair so badly...). Oddly enough, as far as I can recall, all same-sex pairings are with characters that are bisexual, none of them to date from Bioware are completely gay or lesbian. I suppose bisexual is a bit better than none at all, especially considering that Bioware's HQ is in Edmonton, Alberta (Alberta is one of the more reluctant provinces to accept gay marriage, in general you could sorta think of Alberta as Canada's Texas :p).
Yeah I know. Don't get me started on this one.Quote:
Originally Posted by The Summoner of Leviathan
Oh, I don't really mind the fact that he's so willing to have sex. I just found his character to be a little dry in terms of being a "romantic interest"... yet that's all us gay guys get stuck with. Oh well, it could've been worse.Quote:
Originally Posted by The Summoner of Leviathan
Me too! He's a bit of a sweetheart.Quote:
Originally Posted by The Summoner of Leviathan
Still think Zell Dincht is a homo.
I think there's a mod out that let's anyone romance anyone in Dragon Age, and so a male can hook up with Alistair. Not sure though. I just got certain mods that made the game less annoying, not the myriad of sex mods.
Oh you kids and your zany slang words.Quote:
Originally Posted by Moon Rabbits
Because of stereotypes, to answer you simply. The stereotypical idea of a gay man is a girly effeminate weakling of a nancy boy. Vaan is pretty effeminate. Kratos is a manly muscle man with a staunch deep voice who slices stuff up, bathes in it's blood, then screws women in the cabin of his stolen pirate ship. That's pretty much the epitome of masculinity, in video games at least.
That, and Kratos actually had sex with women, whereas Vaan didn't go anywhere near that.
It's silly to still think like this beyond age 14. A lot of people do though.
Vaan is significantly more feminine-looking than most any male JRPG protagonist out there, though. However from what I understand, males that are somewhat effeminate in Japan aren't really looked upon over there as "probably gay". However, in America they are looked upon as "probably gay" for obvious reasons.
I think its more how he acts. Nancy boy is a good description. There are some -really- effiminate depictions of Cloud and Sephiroth out there. But they're both capable of ripping your face off if they wanted. Doesn't really help the case since they're considered homoerotic a lot anyway. But still. They can be seen as a threat. Vaan is mostly just seen as a joke. But I think people's bigger problem is that audiences are just getting tired of pretty boys these days. Despite the fact that sprites didn't do a character design much justice. So if you take into account the art on how a character is supposed to look. We've been dealing with pretty boys since like NES. Its getting old. And I think the hate is more of a lashing out. The trend is way old and time to go
And I seem to recall playing an RPG with a gay guy in it. Was it Enchanted Arms? Not sure
Yes, I mentioned that earlier. You're thinking about Makoto, and he's an absolute trash character. Most stereotypical "gay man" you can possibly think of.Quote:
Originally Posted by Vyk
I'm not... QUITE sure what you mean by "pretty boys", but if you're talking about characters like Cloud, then I don't really mind them at all. To be honest I've never heard anybody rage about it like you just did, but for the most part it's fine because they also tend to be quite strong or powerful at the same time, which is something I like about them. It's a nice contrast to western characters that tend to be burly and ugly, which I see an awful lot of and I'm getting really sick of. I think Vaan is just too effeminate overall, and it really annoys me. He's not even attractive in the slightest. I really do not like his character design, nor anything else about him. For the record, this is the opinion of a gay male [though I think everyone knows that I'm gay by now]. I do think however, that some western-straight guys [JUST SOME, I'M NOT SAYING ALL OF THEM] feel a little offended or threatened by attractive male characters.
I wasn't trying to rage about anything. More expressing opinions I know are out there. My point was the contrast. That if Vaan maybe had super powers and slapped some people around he might not be seen as such a sissy-boy
And I wasn't trying to say Makoto was a -good- gay character. Pretty much -everyone- in that game was very two dimensional, stereotypical, and over the top in some way
I really wouldn't mind seeing well portrayed homosexual characters in games
Haha I figured not, but it sounded a bit like that I think.Quote:
Originally Posted by Vyk
Yeah I can agree. I personally can't even shake off that "sissy-boy" image of him. I don't even want to see him that way but they made it hard for me not to. It may just be because I'm not really used to it. However, I doubt he's actually gay, though most of the western-audience will assume so out of ignorance and spite.Quote:
Originally Posted by Vyk
Yeah, I agree. Makoto did make me laugh at least.Quote:
Originally Posted by Vyk
Me neither! I think a character like Zevran is a start in the right direction. You definitely won't be seeing him on any of my top 100 lists, but he really wasn't that bad either.Quote:
Originally Posted by Vyk
Even though it kinda sucks, Phantasmagoria 2 had a heroic and relatively realistic gay character whom the (male) main character has feelings for.
As Spoony said, "He's the best one there!"
Oh gawd. Someone -else- sat through that ten hour review/play-through? :P Yeah. He wasn't quite as real as he could have been. But he probably was the least over-acted or drab character
Yes, but aren't the gay characters in that game all about the promiscuity and moral gray areas too? I think that was the original problem folks had with Zevran.Quote:
Originally Posted by Laddy
Gerard Magimel! "OH Buigen!"Quote:
Originally Posted by Mirage
(SPOILER)Do not fret, dove. For long is it not that Square Enix will realize the error of its ways and reveal Cloud's true leanings. That despite his masculine and somber overtones, he's a true meat-eater.Quote:
Originally Posted by Khalin
Y'know, I think a major problem with portraying a gay guy as "normal" is finding the right way to do it. How do you actually define a guy in a game as gay without cliche short of showing him actually making out with another guy?
(SPOILER)Quote:
Originally Posted by Rad Bromance
So to be "straight", you have to have deeper issues. lol.
(SPOILER)Does anybody call you a pretty boy? I think I recall being called that at least once. I was late teens, slim, just starting to benchpress, short hair, acne-free, and was not yet entirely engrossed in facial hair.Quote:
Originally Posted by Khalin
Personally, I do feel threatened by "pretty boys", 'cause they stir a lot of attention from girls. At least, that was previous understanding. I later came to realize girls like to blab and a guy is nothing without something clever to say. That's why I spent so many years alone because I never opened my mouth other than to answer math equations.
Personally, I believe Vaan's are the coolest-looking attacks in the game. Then again, I'm a bit of pyro by nature so I'm biased. But it's not about power or physique, the main problem is personality. Vaan would be cooler if he rocked the pirate leadership flaunted by Balthier or the soldier mannerisms of Basch. We wouldn't really care too much about his looks by then. In fact, given Basch's looks, if he had carried Vaan's attitude and mannerisms through the game, you'd probably just think he was "lighthearted."Quote:
Originally Posted by Vyk
BTW, how would it be if someone like Barret was revealed to be gay?
Gay Tony I've heard isn't a sterotypical homosexual in a video game.
This isn't some lame attempt to brag, but yes, quite a lot. I don't really have any facial hair, and I still look pretty young. I'd be lying if I said that I didn't enjoy the attention...Quote:
Originally Posted by Mercen-X
But guys that do have a little moustache or whatever shouldn't have to worry since it can be shaved off very cleanly and with relative ease using today's modern razors.
No. Just no. And my negative reaction isn't because he's black for any wise-asses here, because I'd feel the same way about some heavy, nasty, overly-built, ugly white guy toting a huge gun or whatever. Not my type no matter what colour you paint on him.Quote:
Originally Posted by Mercen-X
Valid points, I guess its a mixture of looks and mannerisms. I just think that, for me, I would probably have taken him a bit more seriously if (and I was only stating for example) he had freaked out at any point in the story... or at least, any point up until I lost interest. If he goes crazy and tries to murder someone late in the story then uh... my badQuote:
Originally Posted by Mercen-X
But there are other ways in which I would have seen him as "redeemed" from the "sissy boy" status. And like MILF pointed out. I consider him more "gay" than "homosexual"
He was nice enough and sacrificed his life to heroically overthrow an evil corporation. Probably one of the few *good* characters.Quote:
Originally Posted by Moon RabbitsYes, but aren't the gay characters in that game all about the promiscuity and moral gray areas too? I think that was the original problem folks had with Zevran.Quote:
Originally Posted by Laddy
Actually, in response to Mo-Nercy's question at the very beginning of this thread, Eagle from Street Fighter, as a Freddie Mercury homage, has been confirmed to be gay. Zangief was rumored to be gay as well (but this hasn't been 100% confirmed like with Eagle though).
Haha, everyone's going to think that I'm just a huge complainer, but man the thought of that is just nasty.Quote:
Originally Posted by Astronite
So what I'm getting from you is that any gay character should be thin, good looking, monogamous, not evil, heroic, and completely de-sexualized?Quote:
Originally Posted by KhalinNo. Just no. And my negative reaction isn't because he's black for any wise-asses here, because I'd feel the same way about some heavy, nasty, overly-built, ugly white guy toting a huge gun or whatever. Not my type no matter what colour you paint on him.Quote:
Originally Posted by Mercen-X
Sounds boring.
I think you're trying a little too hard to point out the utmost massive and highly exaggerated extremes of my preferences in an attempt to try and knock it down so you can create a little flame-war here. Not only that, but you seem to be naming really basic qualities with no context at all, when in fact they can be executed in a million different ways from story construction and connection, as well as at least a hundred or so OTHER personality traits that would start to make a character complete. A good writer can take the generic qualities you just mentioned and add an innumerable combination of other traits as well as an infinite way to have them develop through his/her story to make said character very interesting. But I don't really want to get into that right now.Quote:
Originally Posted by Moon Rabbits
Obviously there's all sorts of people with all sorts of billions of different personalities, and gay or straight is merely a single trait amongst them. What I'm saying is that I'd like one of these standard RPG or action-game types to be exactly the same, except they happen to like guys. The purpose of this would be to show that gays aren't some incapable weak effeminate "sissies" 100% of the time etc, and I think in the case of Zangief it's like killing a fly with a shotgun. Or to be more precise, it would be to show that they can be just as "cool" as characters like Firion, Cecil, Bartz, Locke, Cloud, Squall, etc. [I'm not comparing them OR saying they're all awesome by the way. I'm only saying that they all rank a good deal of popularity one way or another amongst many FF audiences]. Basically, it'd be nice to lift the restriction of such roles only falling to straight males.
FOR THE RECORD - I don't expect this to happen any time soon. I'm just saying it would be cool in my opinion if it did. And as for your response, I'd be lying if I said that a good-looking character isn't a plus. You can call me shallow etc. but whatever :love: I'm not going to sit here and yell "Man I hope they make him ugly! I'd love that!" since that's contradictory to my nature. I'm not sure where you get "de-sexualized" from either. I have no problem if they want to make him a sex god, as long as they actually make his character interesting and three-dimensional [which they failed to do with Zevran]. You DO realize that I'm gay right?
Aside from the fact that Zangief looks nasty to me, it's a pretty interesting step in the right direction I suppose. Is there any confirmation that his character is actually gay? And how widely known is this? I'm seriously curious about this because I haven't heard this one before.
How can we talk about gay characters and NOT have brought up Shadow Hearts: Covenant by this point?
Gerard Magimel! Is there someone else in that game who's gay? Y'know he's been mentioned twice.