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For those who don't know, a "clone" in a fighting game is a character who fights in a very similar (if not the same) manner as another character - it has nothing to do with looking the same.
What is the general opinion on it? I don't mind it too much when it's explained in the storyline (e.g. both characters trained at the same place or something), butI much prefer it when there are more unique characters to fight with. It makes the characters more unique.
The biggest problem with the original Soul Calibur (aside from ring outs being too easy) was that half the characters were clones of the others. It wouldn't have bothered me if they had all played quite a bit differently, but almost none of them did play that differently. They did a much better job of it in Soul Calibur 2 where characters like Cassandra were very different from Sophitia and Lizard Man.
So clone characters don't bother me too much except when they play almost identically to one another. As long as each has different moves, timing, and strategies then it's fine with me because they're not just thrown in as a lazy way to increase the character count then.
What some people think are "clones", are actually significantly different when you're know the characters really well :p. I'm not bothered by it.
If you can learn one character well and then switch to their counterpart, make almost no changes to your strategy or play style, and still be quite successful then they're not different enough. That was pretty much Soul Caliburs characters in a nut shell. :pQuote:
Originally Posted by Mirage
OMG, you mean Ryu and Ken aren't the same!? :D
Actually, I reckon that those who are more familiar with the particular fighting game will realise that a lot of characters who fight alike aren't necessarily clones of each other. I don't play much Super Smash Bro. so as far as I'm concerned Falco = Fox. However, I do play a lot of Soul Calibur and Tekken and I use "clones" as my mains in both (Cassandra and Lee).
Cassandra has been made more and more into a pitbulling, aggressive character that works best when forcing the opponent to block and go defensive whereas Sophitia relies more on mix-ups. Perhaps the best evidence of the fact that the sisters aren't clones (anymore) is that I can't use Sophitia AT ALL.
Lee was originally a clone of Law in his first appearance in Tekken 2. I only remember him having two original moves d+4,4,4,4 and b,db+4 (which are still in his moveset as of T6 and are decents moves too). He's been expanded since his return in Tekken Tag and 4 (where he was top tier character) and in the modern game, he's all about juggling opponents to the walls to do massive damage and using certain moves to keep his distance and win frames. Arguably, Law's much more of a bigger hitter. Again, I can't use Law either (other than stringing together some basic scrub-killing Bruce Lee-esque moves).
Yeah, Falco and Wolf aren't too different from Fox especially Falco. Roger Jr from Tekken also seemed kind of cloney at first, borrowing a lot from King and Heihachi. Can't forget Kunimitsu too.
I still can't stand Ken. He's exactly like Ryu, just with flames, but Christie and Eddy, now that's definitely a by and by clone. Those two don't bother me as much though, because I guess one is for masculinity and the other is for sexuality. Still is a little irksome though.
In certain games Ken and Ryu have a different quarter circle back kick and varying powers of Hadouken and Shroyuken and their respective ultimates.
Anyway I dont mind clone fighters, especially if theres a team play option where i can pick all characters who have the same button combos but different moves.
I think as time has gone on, the clone characters have developed more and more unique moves of their own. Jack and Kuma in Tekken 1 were pretty much identical but they're rather different now, for example.
Oh yeah forgot about Jack and King being identical, same true with the Irish sisters.
I'm the opposite of Mo. Sophitia is my main and I can barely use Cassandra at all.
But it doesn't really bother me if there's a couple of clones here and there, as long as there's enough individuality in the other character selections.
And I thought this was a King of Fighters thread, where there's literally a butt load of Kyo clones running around.
Pairs like Mario and Luigi or Ryu and Ken I don't mind since their appearances, outfits, and personalities aren't that similar (to the point where they scream identical twins). Even if they're fighting style is insanely identical, it's okay with me as long as a character isn't a younger version or an alternate version of another. Though some differentiation would be nice, no matter how small it may be.
Other examples I'm okay with are Fox, Falco, and Wolf as well as Cassandra and Sophita.
Clone groups like Link, Young Link, and Toon Link, as well as Mario and Dr. Mario I'm not okay with since storywise they're both the same character. I consider Link and Toon Link to be the same since even though they're Links from different time periods and different parts of the world, they're still the same hero of time with the same outfit and same equipment and they both have blondish hair and pale skin (this applies to every Link in every game he's in).
I forgot about toon Link his only difference is that he has shorter range. Mario and Luigi are vastly different though. In Smash Bros they only have one similar attack which is the fireball and even with that Luigi's fireball goes straight even when shot in mid air. Mario's bounces and falls while in the air. Their Ultras are completely different. Luigi's is just out there.
Ken and Ryuu on the other hand not only look similar in appearance but also play the same. back in SF2 they were completely identical in SFIV all I see different are their supers and ultras.
So wrong it hurtsQuote:
Originally Posted by Depression Moon
[QUOTE=Mo-Nercy;2799085]OMG, you mean Ryu and Ken aren't the same!? :DQuote:
Originally Posted by Vivi22
Lee was originally a clone of Law in his first appearance in Tekken 2. I only remember him having two original moves d+4,4,4,4 and b,db+4 (which are still in his moveset as of T6 and are decents moves too).
Sophitia and Casandra I get, they are sisters and probably trained in the same place. Ken and Ryu I get, because they trained at the same place. At least it makes sense.
Lee first appeared in Tekken, not Tekken - he didn't have his own voice, but he fought the same way as in T2.
Can someone explain he was a Law clone? They are not related and Tekken doesn't really mention its storyline in full until Tekken 4 (and more so Tekken 5) - He is semi-part of Hehachi's familly, so if Lee had to be a clone, why not someone of his own familly?
Quote:
Originally Posted by I Took the Red PillSo wrong it hurtsQuote:
Originally Posted by Depression Moon
How so?
I rather enjoyed getting used to the changes in Anna and Nina that occurred between Tekken 3 and Tekken 5 (I didn't play TT or T4).
Maybe it was because I played Tekken 5 before I played Tekken 4, but to me, T4 seamed almost like the test version of T5...Quote:
Originally Posted by Jessweeee♪
They play COMPLETELY different. Yes, I can play as any of the 3 effectively, but I prefer playing as Wolf by far over the other two. And I hate playing as Falco, but can use him decently. The way their attacks hit, the direction the enemy flies, the weight of the character, the fall speed, running speed, attack speed, combo attacks... all things that if you play the game enough you can easily notice... make huge differences in their strategy.Quote:
Originally Posted by Depression MoonQuote:
Originally Posted by I Took the Red PillSo wrong it hurtsQuote:
Originally Posted by Depression Moon
How so?
As for my opinion on clones... If they are different enough, I am okay with it. I find Mario to be significantly better than Luigi, but Dr. Mario and Mario to be almost identical... though Dr. Mario is slower. Toon Link and Link play differently... but they are the same character storywise. Throwing in another character that played as Toon Link did would have satisfied me. Or even adding in Young Link that has the Deku/Zora/Goron mask would have been awesome.
THE JACKEL
If they're different enough from each other, I don't really mind it.
Prior to the events of the first Tekken game, Lee was shipped off to the U.S. to train with Marshall Law and Paul Phoenix by Heihachi (Lee's db+1+2 unblockable is the same as Paul's, he also shared the 'Shredder' kicks with Paul in TTT and T5 but could only do them out of Mist Step. Good juggle ender though). This is from his Tekkenpedia entry. This is presumably why he does not use any Mishima Fighting Style Karate, even though Heihachi supposedly adopted him to groom him to become a rival to Kazuya. Stranger yet, he's had no side-stories to do with Law and Paul. All his story modes to date have revolved around his rivalry with Kazuya. Maybe he wasn't in the U.S. for that long? (he does speak Japanese in the games, not English, even though he resides in the Bahamas and is of Chinese origin. What a confusing man.)Quote:
Originally Posted by MJN SEIFER
In any case, I'm glad he's not just another Mishima, because there's enough of them. And he doesn't have the eyebrows or hairstyle for it. xD. It's kinda sad though that he's spent the greater part of his life trying to compete with Kazuya and in the drop of a hat, Lars (SPOILER) (his other step-brother) comes out of nowhere and does a far better job of beating up Mishimas than he ever did.
I think Namco just needed a sub-boss for Law in Tekken 1 and 2 and couldn't be arsed coming up with something original so they did what fighting games did back then and made the penultimate fight for Law in his story mode some guy who fights almost exactly like him. He was awful back then too. Like Law, but less backflipping action, which was about 90% of Law's game back then.
But Lee was so broken in T4, I loved it. =]Quote:
Originally Posted by MJN SEIFER
eehhhhh... yes and no. Same moves, but different body sizes and leg lengths. Some combos and juggles are that may be easy for one to perform are harder for the other. I guess this comment just goes to prove that even when characters are clones, they aren't perceived as such by people who play the game a lot.Quote:
Originally Posted by Depression Moon
Also, the level of human players can often be judged on whether they choose Eddy or Christie. It's not that one is better than the other, but a button-mashing noob's first choice is often Christie. Yay for sexually provocative characters with 'bouncy' moves.
I don't mind them. I can understand why aesthetically it would be blargh, but i don't mind them. Ryu and Ken usually are vastly different and i will be honest that i play Ryu much better than Ken in most games because of the slight changes. To say 'clones' are the same usually means you don't know the game.
This is the same for Iron Man vs Warmachine(beams vs rockets...if you know the game beam style attacks are MUCH superior), Fox vs Wolf and etc. They may look the same in the first glance but at higher level play they may place so far away from one another statistically.
eehhhhh... yes and no. Same moves, but different body sizes and leg lengths. Some combos and juggles are that may be easy for one to perform are harder for the other. I guess this comment just goes to prove that even when characters are clones, they aren't perceived as such by people who play the game a lot.Quote:
Originally Posted by Depression Moon
Also, the level of human players can often be judged on whether they choose Eddy or Christie. It's not that one is better than the other, but a button-mashing noob's first choice is often Christie. Yay for sexually provocative characters with 'bouncy' moves.[/QUOTE]
What do you mean by that i play the game a lot been playing since the first Tekken and last year I won a T6 tourney. I haven't any combos that don't connect with Eddy versus Christie.
I don't see any weight difference. Falco's just slightly slower.Quote:
They play COMPLETELY different. Yes, I can play as any of the 3 effectively, but I prefer playing as Wolf by far over the other two. And I hate playing as Falco, but can use him decently. The way their attacks hit, the direction the enemy flies, the weight of the character, the fall speed, running speed, attack speed, combo attacks... all things that if you play the game enough you can easily notice... make huge differences in their strategy.
Doctor Mario was removed from Brawl for a reason.
I hated how in Soul Calibur IV's character creation mode all you could do was make clones of other characters.
I don't like the concept of clone characters. It seems incredibly lazy and like an excuse to announce your game as having more characters to play with than it actually has.
I've played smash with some of the best in my region (though I'm definitely not as good as them b/c I don't take that game seriously) and I'm just not touching this with a 10238421038 ft pole.Quote:
Originally Posted by Depression MoonQuote:
Originally Posted by I Took the Red PillSo wrong it hurtsQuote:
Originally Posted by Depression Moon
How so?
Christie and Eddie are the only true 'clones' imo in the current gen of fighting games. Others may be very similar like Ryu and Ken but they have several differences that distinguish them (move priorities, some mechanics, dmg on moves, supers, etc etc), but the only difference between Christie and Eddie (other than appearance) is their basic throw animations. This doesn't bother me b/c at their stories are tied pretty closed to each other when learning how to fight, and at least their current stories aren't replicas of one another.
Actually the move setlist for any of the possible character setups you used in the character creation was somewhat different from the main character who used that weapon type for example: Greatswords (nightmare/siegfried) some of the hits you'd use in general attacks were not present in either of the two characters using the weapons normally it was generally some inclusions of moves used by Cervantes to construct something different.Quote:
Originally Posted by Rad Bromance
Generally speaking the only direct clone I remember fighting exactly the same as someone else was Kasumi having an actual clone to attack her in Dead or Alive 2. However Ein once he remembered he is Hayate, he and Hayabusa had a similar moveset as well.
Clones don't annoy me half as much as someone who knowingly picks the exact same person as you. I always even in Soul Calibur made sure if someone picked Seong Mi-na (the character was my personal favourite) I would go and pick Killik or someone else just because I can't stand having 2 people use the exact same character as the other in a beat 'em up game. I'm actually the same in games like Pokemon, I try to use different parties to the commonly used ones in pvp so I can get around the whole facing off the same people. The one exception there was Mewtwo, he was so powerful it made little sense not to use him if you had the option.
I like clone characters every now and then, because having them can give opposing players the chance to use the same fighting style should they both be proficient with it!
I do dislike how clone characters are justified in story modes of games; just admit they are extraneous fun!
That's what alternate costumes are for.Quote:
Originally Posted by Genius Lynx
They are usually different enough for me. Ganondorf and Captain Falcon from Super Smash Bros. Melee have more or less identical Specials but I vastly prefer Ganondorf due to his weight, normal moves, and speed. Same with Fox, Falco, and Wolf in Brawl. There is a surprisingly big difference between these three if you with them enough, especially in the Smash attacks. Ken and Ryu were mentioned earlier also, and while initially the same they have changed enough in my opinion. Again, their Special moves are more or less the same (I prefer Ken's Tatsumaki Senpukyaku and Shoryuken), but their regular moves and the combos they can get from them change how even a scrub like me handles them.
I guess I feel people just look at the Special moves and if they are the same they assume the clones play the same, when that's usually not the case.
I didn't say some would connect whilst others didn't, I said some are harder to pull off than others. But every juggle Eddy can do, Christie can too.Quote:
Originally Posted by Depression Moon
It's pretty common knowledge that Eddy has longer limbs than Christie, I'm surprised you didn't know because you seem pretty good. But I suppose it's probably because you can actually use Eddy and Christie (I'm not so good with them xD) so the timing is less of an issue for you since you've done 'em a million times.
Kyros' post has also reminded me that Eddy has different grab animations. By my reckoning, they put him in a better position for oki than Christie's do.
some are annoying, some aren't.
some clones in super smash bros are just annoying because they're so similar. like someone said, the mario and link clones are too similar and there's enough other characters as it is.
Mortal Kombat did it right. All characters have the same punches and kicks, but the super attacks of Scorpion, Sub-Zero and Reptile makes them as different as Baraka and Johnny Cage.
Tekken. Kunimitsu was pretty useless, it's just Yoshimitsu without his best attacks.
The only "clones" are Mario and Dr. Mario in Smash, most others "clones" play differently enough.
Link and Toon Link play very different for example.
Dr Mario was better than Mario b/c his cape and bair were tons more useful :P
Poop, reading all these posts about Tekken make me wanna go play it vs someone but there's not anyone nearby who can compare to me :(
I don't like it when characters are just like alternate costumes of other characters. Things like Link/Young Link and Fox/Falco/Wolf are fine by me, because they all handle differently (I haven't played any other fighting game for a while :().
For Link/Young Link in Melee, it wasn't just their range that was different. Young Link was faster but weaker than his adult counterpart. Also the smash attack (-> + hold A), which consisted of two strikes, was weighted differently (ie Young Link's initial attack was stronger than the second iirc).
While they might not seem like major differences, it's enough for me to feel like I'm playing a fresh character, and allows me to adjust my style without having to learn a whole new moveset.
I'm fine with exact clones if they are literally an alternate costume, so long as it means the roster is populated with varying characters.
Thanks for the explaination - I'll check that site out.Quote:
Originally Posted by Mo-Nercy
I wish they'ed brought her out more - I liked her for some reason, and would have like it if they had varied her a bit and made her similar but not the same, so she could have been a fitting oponent for Yoshimitsu (they tried to do so in TTT, I think). They should have had an updated version of her for in SCII, not Hehachi, nothing against him, but doesn't use anything!Quote:
Originally Posted by Lightening
*shakes head*Quote:
Originally Posted by Depression Moon
Can Ken juggle from an air-to-air MP in Street Fighter? Can Ryu's crouching MK in Third Strike stand up to Ken's in the same game?
Not to mention that Ryu's more of a power character who capitalizes on your mistakes while Ken is more about flash, and depending on the game, is more about combos.
I'd write a more detailed analysis but don't have time right now. Let's just say they did start out the same at first, but became radically different the farther the series went.
what's the abbreviations, I don't understand them?
Ken and Ryu started out the same but once Champ Edition came they are more and more radically different.
SFIV -
-Ken has a slower walkspeed/sweep/and fireball. ALL OF WHICH AFFECT HIS GAME HEAVILY.
Fireball: Ryu can use his to zone and actively push someone/go toe to toe with Sagat's Tiger Shots. Ken cannot do this at all with the slight frame changes. This also makes combos into Ken's fireball unsafe to certain Ultras whereas it would NEVER happen to Ryu.
Walkspeed/Sweep: Because his fireball sucks, Ken has to get in close to use his step kick or start his Kara Throw/Tatsu game...but because of these factors he has a tougher time getting in and comboing...and therefore rank way lower than Ryu...outside of the fact he can't land Ultra as easy.
EX: Ryu can do crouch light kick, into crouch jab, to crouch fierce Tatsu...Ken cannot...Ryu can also do crouch medium punch twice and link into sweep..Ken cannot.
-Ken cannot Juggle into an ultra off a LP(Light Punch) Shoryuken(SRK). OR Juggle into an Ultra off EX Tatsu in corner.
-Ken cannot do a jumping medium punch (MP) juggling into Ultra in both oldschool and SFIV...
-Ken has a step kick and faster crouch medium kick on startup.
-Ken has an extended throw range with his Kara Throw and Ryu does not ( YouTube - SF4- How to do Ken's Kara Throw ). This changes Ryu/Ken's up close game.
-Ken's Ultra can be set up the same way as Ryu's, but it must be counter hit to get full damage therefore Ryu's is superior.
-Ken's lp SRK is comparatively weaker than Ryu's...his medium however has more invincibility but does not knock down on first hit making it easier..and his hard punch SRK does less damage/invincibility than Ryu's but has a different arc making certain combos or jump-ins more punishable. The Hard punch SRK's properties/hitbox is also why its so hard to get a counter hit Ultra for Ken.
tl; dr: Ken is forced to get in close to start his game and usually does not fight at a distance. He has to take more risks and tend to have less options to go into Ultra. Ryu however can be played from far away or up close, his upclose game is not as apparent as Ken's but he has more options into big damage through the ease of comboing into Ultra.
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This is just a few things on top of my head and this is only SFIV, i can go on and on about other games too. Theres a reason why Ken is ranked SO much lower than Ryu in this one game...they are not the same.
Tier List: Street Fighter 4 Tiers — Character Rankings : EventHubs.com
I don't prefer it, but I don't really get too worked up about it either. It only really bothers me when people pick nothing but a "Ryu" type character. Don't get me wrong, Ken is my favorite Street Fighter character, but I pick other types of characters as well. There's so many interesting character types to use besides your typical Shoto character.
I love Street Fighter, but my definition of clone is vague enough to even count Sagat as a "shoto" character. I fell in love with playing Ryu back in the old days. And it makes it very simple to switch over to Ken, Sagat, and Akuma. No, not identical. But needlessly similar. And in cases like that, I like the clones. 'Cause then I have a ton of characters to choose from. Though it kinda handicaps me, 'cause I take it too easy on myself. I barely know how to use most of the non-shoto characters. But even Dan is similar enough that I can whoop some tail with his sorry ass
That being said, I really don't know where the line is for me. I've followed the entire "Soul" _____ line from Soul Edge/Blade through Soul Calibur IV. So I was there when everyone was an exact copy of someone else. And that didn't bother me. But for some reason Eddie and Christie in Tekken irk me. Never got into any Smash Bros games. I owned the first. Hated it. And left the series alone. Haven't followed much in SNK unfortunately. And have only dabbled in the Guilty Gear games. So I really don't have enough info to form a real opinion on clones in the fighting game genre as a whole. I'm just being a sort of devil's advocate. A Street Fighter fan that's willing to admit half the roster are needlessly similar. But also, I like that. Go figure
I feel like I should also point out I've followed most of the DOA franchise. And that series if full of characters who should rightfully play very similar, but not a lot of them do. There's like 20 ninja characters and half a dozen wrestlers and big grappler guys. Three chinese/kung fu characters. The most similar I can think of is Leon and Bayman. The big grapple guys. But again, none of the wrestlers fight the same. None of the ninjas fight the same. None of the Kung Fu people fight the same. When really they could have taken the easy route and done so. There really is no reason for clones usually. Just vary things enough *Shrug*
>>> I wouldn`t mind some Bridget clones :love:..:luca:
Yeah they can be Bridget except actually girlsQuote:
Originally Posted by black orb
^ Blasphemy !:mad2:
First, a query of a clone engine. I remember not entirely too long ago playing a game with similar play to Soulcalibur however, despite all of its characters wielding a weapon, it featured none of the Soulcalibur characters. I can't remember the name of the game or any of the characters. I only know I rented it, relished it, and forgot to buy and now I have no idea what it was.
Anyway. About clone characters... I don't honestly think that two characters with the same trainer should automatically fight identically (e.g. Gordo and Christie from Tekken), there should be some unique moves for each character. I don't mind so much new characters featuring old move sets. For example, I believe in Soulcalibur IV Raphael's moveset from Soulcalibur III is given to an unlockable character (or is usable for "Create-A-Fighter")? I particularly fancy this as it makes it easier to blend into the game. I at first hated how much the character's respective playstyles had changed so much.
>>> Indeed, the sole thought of Bridget being a girl get me all depressed..:luca:Quote:
Originally Posted by Lionx
...I don't know if they make good Toh Shin Den games anymore. But if they do. That might have been it. That's a fighting game with weapons. What system was it for? On newer systems there's not a lot of games out there anymore that it could be. Tekken and DoA don't really use weaponry. Neither does Virtua Fighter. And... I can't think of any other 3D fighters...Quote:
Originally Posted by Mercen-X
I thought it might be Toshinden too, but it's not a clone of Soulcalibur. Controls are quite different and it was a kind of faux-3D where the arena was 3D but you couldn't really move about in it a whole lot (there was side rolling, but it was slow).Quote:
Originally Posted by Vyk...I don't know if they make good Toh Shin Den games anymore. But if they do. That might have been it. That's a fighting game with weapons. What system was it for? On newer systems there's not a lot of games out there anymore that it could be. Tekken and DoA don't really use weaponry. Neither does Virtua Fighter. And... I can't think of any other 3D fighters...Quote:
Originally Posted by Mercen-X
It was a great game of it's time though. Characters like David with his chainsaw, Vermilion's two pistols, Sho who had an 'invisibility' attack, Ten Count and his uncanny resemblance to Michael Jackson. Geez, I loved that game.
Oh it was choc-full of clones that game. Every sub-boss was a clone. Only a few moves differed between some characters (David and Judgment were very similar, ditto Mondo and Toujin) whilst others shared weapon traits and combo execution strings but it would look different on screen (like Leon and Eiji or Kayin and Ten Count)