Playstation Move and Xbox Natal (New Motion technology)

The Nintendo Wii is dominating sale figures both in hardware and in Software because if it's motion technology that introduced games to a whole new audience of people.....(Yes, i mean "soccer moms").
Microsoft and Sony are fighting back:

Today at GDC 2010 (Game Developer's Conference) in San Fransisco the Playstation Move was announced. Sony secretive motion controller that debuted in E3 09. it uses similar interface that Wii uses and it also has a ball at the end that lights up...and apparently it vibrates(dont get too excited). The playstation Eye is required to capture the Move's motion ques.

PS MOVE DEBUT:
Sony Video Game, GDC 10: Press Conference: PlayStation Move | Game Trailers & Videos | GameTrailers.com

Natal, which is Microsoft's splash into "motion gaming". It uses a 3-D camera to capture a person's movements and is completely controller-free.

So far a long list of developers and publishers have signed on for both the Move and Project Natal.

There should be an answer on the poll exactly the same as the last one, except minus the "WII FTW" part.

Nintendo will still be top, and these gimmicks will only partially work. At the end of the day, the Wii is established already, it has the cuter image and cuter games, and it's cheaper.

But I still <3 my PS3 and all those Wii users are just conformists. Why don't you go back to your plastic, bubblegum lives full of fitness regimes and sunshine race-tracks.

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There should be an answer on the poll exactly the same as the last one, except minus the "WII FTW" part.

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I'm also hopping on the hate for motion control bandwagon.

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Nintendo will still be top, and these gimmicks will only partially work. At the end of the day, the Wii is established already, it has the cuter image and cuter games, and it's cheaper.

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The Wii has brand name recognition. Most of the 'casual gamers' that the Wii targets probably don't even know the difference between the 360 and PS3.
Not to mention the cost difference between the two systems, which is a HUGE advantage when marketing to the casual market, as to them video games are a diversion instead of a way of life.

There are two reasons IMO that casual gamers and people seeking 'fun for the whole family' kind of games will continue to buy the Wii after these two pieces of technology come out for PS3 and 360.

1) Price.
2) Brand recognition


*has just realised VeloZer0 said the EXACT same thing*

Touche, my friend.

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Originally Posted by eternal essence

There should be an answer on the poll exactly the same as the last one, except minus the "WII FTW" part.

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This. I was livid when I heard both companies were coming out with waggle too. If I want waggle, there's already the Wii. When I want to play a game I want to sit on my ass and just stare at the screen, not hop around like an idiot.

Besides, it's doomed for failure anyway. It works on the Wii because it's cheap and for casuals, which the PS3 and 360 are not.

Maybe when this stuff is actually sophisticated there will be a real place for it, but I want the movie Gamer type sophistication. :cool:

Is it just me...or does Natal seem like it's going to be a fancy version of the eyetoy?

I've only read about it though, haven't bothered to look up any gameplay footage (if there is any).

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Originally Posted by eternal essence

There should be an answer on the poll exactly the same as the last one, except minus the "WII FTW" part.

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This please. I'll get to the why in a second.

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Originally Posted by eternal essence

Is it just me...or does Natal seem like it's going to be a fancy version of the eyetoy?

I've only read about it though, haven't bothered to look up any gameplay footage (if there is any).

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Pretty much. And I don't think there is any real gameplay footage aside from stuff that's been partly staged or edited to represent what they want it to do, not what it actually can do now.

As far as I'm concerned motion controls might as well be dead in the water, Natal in particular. Without substantial physical feedback they're not nearly as immersive as people want them to be. Natal will be pretty much the worst case scenario because it will have absolutely no physical feedback. Steering a car or simulating a sword fight is bad enough on the Wii (and I'd imagine Sony's controller as well. I know steering with the Dual Shock is an unbelievable pain) because some vibration doesn't give you nearly the feedback you get from the real thing. Natal will be even worse for everything because you get no feedback at all. Not even the feedback of holding onto something in your hands as you try to steer a car, or hit a ball or whatever other crap they'll needlessly complicate in the pursuit of motion control immersion. And seeing as how the Wii controller already suffers from some amount of lag in picking up your movements in my experience, I can only imagine we'll have the same thing to deal with from Sony and Microsoft.

The only saving grace for motion controls is that they're easier for people like your grandma to get their head around than a confusing array of buttons. Fine for them, but that means motion controls aren't aimed at me.

So yeah, I guess that was a long way of saying give me buttons and analog sticks please.

Motion controls can go die in a fire. Spend your R&D budget on something better.

I think it should be noted that the waggle the Wii is famous for will most likely not be replicated with these new controllers. Waggle is like button-mashing but with a button that requires slightly more force to press. The original Wii Remote couldn't really tell how far or how hard you were swinging the controller, so all the games required small motions to work. Natal and Playstation Move can read larger motions than the original Wii remote is able to. So, unless the developers decide they want the hard-to-press button effect, they probably won't make the required movements small. :p

Also, I'm curious to see how responsive Natal is.

The very reason I've lacked any interest in getting a Wii is because of the fact that the motion control thing is it's main selling point. A selling point that worked, none the less, but it just doesn't do anything for me. I prefer a game with a story and a goal played with a standard controller to "Generic Carnival Sports games 5!" played with a motion controller.

Unless any of the games that come out for use with these products looks exceptionally interesting I don't see myself purchasing them. Yeah I'm one of those weirdos who cares about the actual games rather than what they're played on/with.

The Wii's had a pretty significant amount of games that are more than just sports games. I think the 360 has a larger fanbase that accepts generic sports games with open arms. :p

Gimmicks + Low Prices = Profit. Simple as. I hate Nintendo for doing this, but to be honest they're a company with a track record of selling out like it's going out of style for the sake of pushing their company's interests into family homes. The pervasiveness of their marketing strategy and the knock-on effect it has on gaming as a medium only seem to be countered by it's self-created image, a feat akin to Disney's ability to seem like something other than a company churning out products in order to make cash.

God how I hate motion control.

Eventually all 3 will fail to provide anything new to gaming and frankly with the wii it's beginning to show already games coming out now are not major gamer games they're puzzle and sports/fitness games for casual gamers and young kids, tell me I'm wrong but seriously there's been a handful of games since and including Zelda Twilight Princess what are seriously intended to appeal to core gamers. The wii is constantly chucking out new attachments and periphials what don't really do anything new just a new way to do what has been previously done. I won't get in to the lack of actual movement required without wii motion plus and even then thats functionality that should never have been kept back as a seperate periphial it should have been shipped with the console.

Natal looks interesting, interesting on the grounds of if it actually pulls what they want off it could be something truly ground breaking in motion control and video capture gaming (which is what Eyetoy is) however theres a very big chance that even if Natal can do what they claim who other than Lionhead who've worked closely with the Natal team can truly get it's potential right at the start? Most developers will probably churn out 1 or 2 crap titles most likely ports of wii games or similar structures to the generic wii catalogue of games whilst they still learn how to use Natal properly which is where Natal can fail hard. Natal will be no doubt quite expensive to set up and if the games released for it shortly after it's launch are all crap then gamers won't care if theres a handful of decent games using it out there they'll avoid it like the plague and it'll die. I'm going to wait and see on this.

For the Sony Move system I'd like to quote an article, this article to be precise here goes:

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When it ships this fall, Sony says the Move will sell in three configurations: A version with just the Move wands for those who already own the requisite PlayStation Eye camera, another option with the Eye, the Move wands, and a game, and a full bundle to include the Eye, Move wands, a game, and the PlayStation 3 console.

The "Eye, Move wands, and game" option should sell for "under $100," said Dille

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Ok wow, Sony are really having a bit of a laugh with this imho. I refer to the highlighted green bold section of the quote above here. Requires the eye camera to even function. I highlighted that part because the eyetoy does motion control already in a sense, it is after all video capture control system much like the one that will be utilized by Natal. The fact that they reckon the eye, move wands and game will cost "under $100" which is generally in my experience a corporate way of saying "$99.99" which means in the uk they will expect £70+ for it. Eyetoy you can buy for £25.00 second hand, £35.00 new that means they'll be looking for double that easily for the camera, move wands and a game collection.

Now lets see one of the games they demonstrate with this:

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The company then demonstrated several motion-control games, starting with a medieval sword-and-shield beat-em-up. From right or left hand slashes to shield blocks to a hands-behind-your-back stance that triggers taunts, the Move--tracked by the Eye--appeared capable of deftly processing every gesture and angle.

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Nothing at all listed in the quote there actually implicates the move as doing something more than what they eye can already do in fact, tracking the slashes, tracking the behind back stance thats all the camera not the motion control at all. I would perhaps assume that there may be button pressing involved but then thats not relying on the motion control either really is it. To me the move is going to be nothing more than an excuse by Sony to charge double for their already existing motion control system.

I remain as ever to be proven wrong by seeing this first hand however so far nothing impresses me about the move.

Give me my twin analogue sticks and d-pad with 8 buttons every time.

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Originally Posted by Kentarou

The Wii's had a pretty significant amount of games that are more than just sports games.

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No one ever said it didn't.

Every console since the 16-bit era has been saturated with sports games. It's normal and to be expected.

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I think the 360 has a larger fanbase that accepts generic sports games with open arms. :p

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Again, no more than any other console since the 16-bit era.

But then, why say

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"Generic Carnival Sports games 5!"

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?

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Originally Posted by Kentarou

But then, why say

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"Generic Carnival Sports games 5!"

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?

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Because...

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Originally Posted by Wikipedia

List of Top Selling Wii Games:

• Wii Sports
• Wii Play
• Wii Fit
• Mario Kart Wii
• Wii Sports Resort
• New Super Mario Bros. Wii
• Wii Fit Plus
• Super Smash Bros. Brawl
• Super Mario Galaxy
• Mario Party 8

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For added fun: (SPOILER)Compare it to PS3's and 360's lists, neither of which have sports games on them unless you count racing.

:greenie:

Ah, I see. :p

From the responses of the thread, I can't really imagine anyone actually being excited about this stuff.

Does anyone know anyone that actually wants either option?

I want games that use it well enough, and a cheap price on the controllers themselves.

A couple of the guys I work with seem quite geared up for Project Natal when it comes out but frankly I remain to be convinced on motion control systems I never liked them which is why I have sincere and serious doubts over there success with me now. I don't enjoy playing on the wii at all (my friend insisted I went over his to play one before I passed judgement even but still failed to win my positive opinion on it) If I want to play the type of games what appeal to most core gamers on the wii such as Ghost Squad ect I'll go down to the N-station (namco's very own arcade on the south bank of the Thames opposite the houses of parliament) or the arcade over in the Trocadero and play them on the arcade machine where I'll have the better feeling control of actually aiming a gun (you can't call a molded mp5 a light gun no matter how hard you try) at the screen and have more of a selection and even if I play the games until I'm bored its still only going to cost me a fraction of the price of a wii and the games and periphials necessary to play them. Hell even if I played them 3 times a year until I grew bored it'd still be cheaper.

Though my girlfriend she would like a wii but mainly so she can get Wii Fit Plus and things like that (she likes yoga and the like so it's up her alley on that basis) which considering to get her to actually see she'd enjoy a Nintendo DS I had to go out and just buy her one and a couple of games she is now in love with her DS and takes it to work on a near daily basis to play Prof Layton, CSI, Style Boutique, Bomberman and a whole host of other games she's picked up over the last few months.

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Originally Posted by NorthernChaosGod

From the responses of the thread, I can't really imagine anyone actually being excited about this stuff.

Does anyone know anyone that actually wants either option?

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I've seen people here and there on the internet that practically crap themselves over what was shown in the Natal videos. No one I actually know is excited about any motion control implementation, and I'm still at a loss as to how anyone can be interested in Natal. Of all of the motion control implementations I think it may actually turn out to be the worst because of the complete lack of physical feedback. At least with the Wiimote or the Move you're holding something that can at least vibrate. It'll take a lot more than a few staged proof of concept videos to convince me it has any value at all.

Despite the Wii's success, the jury's still out on motion controls. The only people I know in real life who play one are my girlfriends sister and aunt, one of whom doesn't even paly "games" on it. I know some people here on EoFF love their Wii's, and there are a few titles I can't wait to play when I eventually get one. But everyone I know in real life who bought one as their "console of choice" has either quit gaming in general or moved on to a 360 or PS3. Nintendo is truly lost for me, in my mind they're not even a video game company anymore.

Microsoft and Sony's have potential, but they face a lot of barriers.

As Vivi22 has pointed out, Natal just seems bad. I remember at E3 the engineer showing how he could move his avatar, who proceeded to mangle itself with its arms and legs wrapped around its body, when all he was trying to do was lift his foot. People speculate it could be really expensive, and even that it will take longer to actually make games that work. However, I've seen others postulate it could only be $50, so I could see it being really successful. Still, it needs actual games, not dodging balls being thrown at you or throwing blotches of paint against a wall. I'd like to see more things like the Burnout demonstration, but tailored just to the Natal, like Greenberg is actually promising.

Playstation Move seems the inverse - it appeals to me more as a gamer but it just might not have the practicability as a marketed product. The SOCOM 4 demo bewildered me - they can actually take a traditional video game that I would want to play and potentially enhance it with motion. That said, it may just be a weird hybrid between a 3rd person shooter and a rail shooter, so I'll have to try it for myself (Please be at PAX East...). On top of that, they have tons of developer support and they said it takes little overhead to work it in as optional with a game. Optional is what I want :) . Essentially this is just a High Definition Wii, but with Sony's strong worldiwde studios behind it (as well as those 30 publishers or whatever) it seems like they're going to actually make games I want to play. When I saw the weapon & shield demonstration I thought of Demon's Souls, and what do you know, From Software is one of the supported developers, so don't be surprised to see Demon's Souls 2 on this thing.... I actually just paused IRL because the thought just hit me... damn.

As exciting as it is from a gamer perspective, it just doesn't seem like something they can sell. They've worked so hard to bring the PS3 down to $299, this essentially makes the PS3 $400 again, an amount casuals don't want to pay. Furthermore, people will be utterly confused about this. They'll see the controller and try to buy that. Are you going to need someone in the store to explain to them they need to buy the camera as well, or *gasp*, that they need a ps3 to play it?

IN SHORT

I can see myself as a gamer with a ps3 getting into Playstation Move, but they're going to have to pull something out of their ass if they want it to appeal to casuals.

The Wii is something I'll get when its dirt cheap used for the 5-6 games I really want to play.

And Natal is probably never since I won't buy a 360 until they redesign it.

These guys are just trying to make money off of Nintendo's success so in that the Wii will still be king. Let's consider how many Wiis have been sold already. Don't know why the issue of brand name came up Microsoft and Sony both are highly famous for hardware and software design just like Nintendo.

I only hope that the Natal will become a messiah making all games hands free and less frustration. I wonder how a FF game will play on a system like that.

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Originally Posted by Depression Moon

I wonder how a FF game will play on a system like that.

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It won't...there is no way anyone in their right mind would stand up and move around for the length of a whole Final Fantasy game.

>>> The Playstation needs more RIIIDGE RACEEER!..:luca:

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Originally Posted by Wikipedia

List of Top Selling Wii Games:

• Wii Sports
• Wii Play
• Wii Fit
• Mario Kart Wii
• Wii Sports Resort
• New Super Mario Bros. Wii
• Wii Fit Plus
• Super Smash Bros. Brawl
• Super Mario Galaxy
• Mario Party 8

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One of the things I don't like about this sort of list is that sales are not exactly equal to the actual popularity of the games. Just because people buy a game doesn't mean that they play it for more than five minutes. The Wii motion games are hugely hyped, but I don't know a whole lot of people who enjoy playing them for longer than it takes the novelty value to wear out. While I'm sure there are plenty of people who do, I doubt if those numbers would keep the games at the top of a "popular games" list.

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Originally Posted by eternal essence

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Originally Posted by Depression Moon

I wonder how a FF game will play on a system like that.

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It won't...there is no way anyone in their right mind would stand up and move around for the length of a whole Final Fantasy game.

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Well I don't know about Natal...but as for motion control in general, your forgetting Crystal bearers.

Regardless you'll never play a main numbered FF game with motion control, cause as ridiculous as Wada is at squeezing the juice out of FF, even he's not that stupid.............I hope.

Classic Final Fantasy wouldn't really benefit from the Wiimote much, if you ask me. Really, there wouldn't be a way to do it without changing the game's interface pretty significantly, but then the game would be working around the controller just for the sake of working around the controller. There's nothing about the main Final Fantasy titles as we know them that would really benefit from motion control.

However, a lot of Final Fantasy games have at least small amounts of environment interaction. It consists of walking up to something and pressing either X or A, depending on what system you're playing on. Then, something happens, and if it didn't involve pushing a button, your character will exclaim what they did. I think it would be pretty cool if you could interact with the environment a bit more directly, like some classic adventure games had you do. :p

Edit: Then again, the Playstation Move is a new peripheral. It would be pretty crappy if all the developers used it for were just tiny things like that, and not something that really defines the whole experience.

^ this is the biggest and most discussed problem, too many games use it for the sake of using it when a controller does it just fine or better. It's part of why I didn't really like some things about No More Heroes, but that's a little complicated to explain.

My biggest interest is to see if they finally bring RTS to consoles in a respectable manner. One of the Playstation demos at E3 was a tabletop war game, talking about how accurate it is to draw and select multiple units, specifically saying "we finally have an input for RTS on consoles" (something like that). Recently one of the main guys said they already having it working for Starcraft.

This is what I want.

I have yet to play a single game on a console that had me thinking "God damn, if only I could do this without the controller". When I want to move about and have fun, I go outside and move about and have fun. The Wii, Move and Natal are all useless to me.

Without physical feedback, the only really useful area for motion control is in RTS games. And I don't see them topping any lists outside the PC. I played a Wii at my friend's house awhile back and after dusting it off (He hadn't played it for like 6 months, whereas his 360 gets daily use) we played it for a couple of hours. Yeah, it was okay fun. But it's not doing anything for gaming, it's just being a reasonably enjoyable aside for a couple hours. I wouldn't buy one and as far as I know, my friend hasn't touched his Wii in the six or so months since we played it.

I have no interest in the Wii, no interest in Natal, and no interest in Move. I maintain my position that this whole thing is like if the entire industry had jumped on button mashing 15 years ago and companies based their business model around selling International Track and Field.

Which I'd rather play than play a Wii.

Edit: But even thinking about RTS, the whole point of our control systems is to be efficient. If you have a counter for how many buttons you press and click over the course of a game, it's going to be huge. If I'm playing something for hours it doesn't really matter how good the motion controls are if they make my hands sore.

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Originally Posted by Quin

When I want to move about and have fun, I go outside and move about and have fun.

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Back a few years ago when the PS3 and 360 had no motion control on the horizon I was just waiting for an advertising campaign like this.

Haha, it would be a pretty magnificent dig at the Wii and Wii players. Or Wiiners, as I like to call them*.

*read "just thought up then".

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Originally Posted by I'm my own MILF

Edit: But even thinking about RTS, the whole point of our control systems is to be efficient. If you have a counter for how many buttons you press and click over the course of a game, it's going to be huge. If I'm playing something for hours it doesn't really matter how good the motion controls are if they make my hands sore.

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That's true as well, and it's hard to imagine that your hand could be as relaxed playing RTS with a motion controller as it is ontop of a desk with a mouse.

But I'm willing to give 'em the benefit of the doubt and I hope I get to participate in this experiment and find out for myself relatively soon.

I think that for motion controllers to work out well, games themselves have to change. But I don't like the original Wii Remote very much, except for its nice little pointer. The motion controls that came packed with the original Wiimote mostly opened up a means of having a button that doesn't exist, yet must be pressed very, very hard to get working.

http://blog.timesunion.com/tech/file...powerglove.jpg

This new technology will certainly change the way we look at games! :cool:

I love my Wii, for the titles that I love, like Mario, and Zelda, and Metroid. A few other gems get released, like Muramasa, Monster Hunter tri... etc. Funny thing is these games don't play all about the motion controls. They're all doable without motion controls, some even opting to have NO motion controls. Then, when Nintendo makes a game with motion controls, they don't over do it. Aiming with a bow in Zelda, good. Aiming your gun in Metroid, sweet. Extra little spin attack in Mario, awesome. Not hugely absurd have to be constantly moving. That's another reason why No More Heroes actually did it right. You don't constantly swing your arms to attack... no, the motion control is applied for KILLING blows and grabs and such. Therefore you're not going overboard all the time.

Essentially. Motion controls are great when used in BALANCE with regular controls. Completely taking over... like Natal... is just absurd.

THE JACKEL

Just get the Natal and Move and play a game where you have to kill like 100 enemies. Then when you're tired you go back to normal gaming. Or they incorporate motion sensoring with the normal gaming.

So like a warning would flash up saying this section of the game would be done by motion sensor. I think it would be pretty fun.