The Hate Thread

I really have no idea what people make of this game as ive tried to give it a fair chance and not ruin it with any spoilers. But i'm here now to express my incredable dislike on the game ive been looking forward to since FFXII.

I'll try to keep these coming comments fair, but no promises

Here are some of my biggest complaints -

The story and characters are overpowering. I'm feeling somewhat suffocated by the mass of cutscenes and dialogue. Some would argue FFXII didn't have enough, is this why they took it to the opposite extreme? If they have to ask you to save midway through a cutscene, isn't that a clear sign that it's going on too long. There comes a point when i just want to play the game. I'm not saying the story and characters shouldn't have depth but watching flashbacks and unessessary dialogue really brings down the pace. I mean you wouldn't go to the cinima and watch a film that was 5hours long when it only needed to be 2 and a half. I really can't understand why the game lets me move a character for 30 seconds before jumping into another cutscene, is that really nessessary? What's wrong with opening a chapter with a scene, then rewarding you with a scene when you finish a chapter? Instead of interupting gameplay all the time.

Ok, complaint number 2 is the linearity. There are too many straight paths you follow which despite how pretty it all looks, is incredabley boring. This could be passable if they kept random encounters like in FFX, but instead every encounter is pre-set. You go where you're told and fight what you're told. This isn't Final Fantasy! Who thought this would be a good idea? Running down a straight line fighting set encounters being interupted by cutscenes every two minutes... what were they thinking? There's nothing to interactive with, the treasure urns are handed out so there's no secrets to find, there's nothing here to do but what you're told to do.

At 3 i have the stagger system. Staggering your opponent requires a quick fluid round of attacks to build the chain gauge which effectively controls the pace of the battle. I understand they were obviously looking for a way to encourage faster paced battles, but this system is too heavily reliant on it. Where some naff enemies can be beaten without first being staggered, larger enemies and boss enemies cannot. The strategy in every battle is to trigger the stagger mode which comes down to - set up buffs + attack + heal + attack - wow, that kind of formula is mind blowing. You find you do the same thing in every battle, which, while we're on the subject are far too long. Every encounter feels like a tedious chore. Now i know this was always a problem with random battles so firstly, why make battles last longer, that will only make them more tedious, and secondly, why bring them back at all??? What was wrong with FFXII! Why take a step forward in improving the battle system only to take two steps backward!

My next complaint is Crystarium. Nothing wrong with the actual system, maybe a bit straight forward but otherwise fine. It's the cap they place on it to prevent you from expanding. Why is this a problem? Because the leveling system in Final Fantasy makes the game a lot more user friendly. If you are new to the game or struggling to overcome a particularly nast battle, leveling always helps to even the odds. This allows less experienced or less skilled players to enjoy the game. Where i havn't had any troubles, friends have already traded in their copies because the difficulty curve is too steep for them. And without the ability to improve their stats they have effectively reached as far into the game as they will ever get. Congratulations SE you've just isolated a percentage of your audience.

Next up is the characters. I'll admit i was pleasently surprised when Sazh didn't turn out to be a stereotypical black guy and instead was a pretty likable character. And Snow too is very likable. But Hope... when will SE learn that nobody likes a whinger. The problem here is that noone sympathises with Hope because we know it wasn't Snows fault (avoiding spoilers if i can) So every time we hear him whinge about it we all think the same thing - shut the smurf up! If Snow really was responsible then it would be somewhat less annoying because you could sympathise but no. Vanille doesn't bother me so much (shocking) though friends can't stand her so i guess she's a love or hate character. Lightening is the main complaint here - A cold to the bone ex-soldier obcessed with taking down her enemy who she blames for the death of her sister.... errr CLOUD STRIFE ANYONE. She's a recycled cloud, and every bit annoying. Ok, i'm not a cloud fan (Zack all the way) and i can understand wanting to create a character with the traits of one of their most loved characters, but this isn't just similar, this IS cloud strife! What a bunch of lazy gits.

That will do for now. I suppose i should leave on a positive note because to be fair this game is not without its merits. Yes yes it looks wonderful, but looks aren't everything. The upgrade system is actually very nice and something i'd like to explore further if i can bring myself to put it on again. And the storyline and (some) characters are very interesting and compelling, if somewhat overpowering. Fact is though, there are more complaints to compliments in this game, everything i seemed to love about the last game is absent here or has been replaced by something inferior. My expectations fallen my dreams crushed, now i know the foul taste of betrayel and my love for Final Fantasy has once again been tainted

Pretty much everything you complained about, I liked. I have other things I wasn't liking too much, but otherwise yeah, your complaints are something I felt the game needed in order to make it what it is.

But then, I like Cloud, I like the battle/stagger/paradigm system (it's certainly ten times more involving than any previous FF incarnation I can think of, where you get to a certain point that you do nothing but attack throughout every battle).

I found XII to be annoying, so I guess we're just completely different audiences that SE has catered to in one way or another!

Yeah, I liked the character developement and the cutscenes and the shear mass amount of them. I especially liked Lightning, who I don't think resembled Cloud in anyway. I like Cloud too, but I still cannot see the resemblence between those two, sorry.

I liked the linearity.

I have issues with the battle system. There are lots of little things I don't like about it, but over-all it functions. (I would have loved if the manual option was actually manual.)

I also am wavering about the random battles. I like that I can see what's coming, but, I am not a fan of random battles period. Random battles annoy me in general. I understand they're necessary, but still... they annoy me.

I like the Crystarium. Since I'm not a huge grinder (usually) the cap doesn't effect me.

I also liked XII, for whole different set of reasons.

So maybe I'm just easy to please, but there wasn't anything that would make me stop playing. (Not yet anyway. I haven't gotten to the end game yet.)

The Linearity was a bit annoying, but when you get to Chapter 11 the game opens up so much and becomes fresh again.

Everything you're saying is bad are the game's strengths from what I can see. :p

I really have no complaints about this game that I can think of. :)

Story/Characters
I've so far (Ch11) found it to be all characters no story. Quite frankly I am getting tired of drawn out character exposition. Not to mention we know nothing about any characters other than the main party. I'm usually a plot development > character development type of guy, but I am willing to chalk up my growing disinterest in cutsceens to personal preference.
I don't like the idea of a scene at the start/end of a chapter. Dividing games into 'chapters' really seems to make the story seem un-natural and contrived to me. I feel the story should always be ongoing. Think back to previous FFs. The idea that they could only stop to talk at set intervals would be ludicrous.


Linearity
I don't mind this all that much, I actually really got turned off when it opened up in Ch11 :D My main beef is that nowadays it seems to be a choice between straight line dungeon and wide open dungeon. Both are not intricate and I find them equally uninspired. I personally like random battles better than ones that appear on the field map, but I don't think this system is appreciably worse.

Stagger
Buff/Heal/Damage? Isn't that what happens in EVERY Final Fantasy title? 'Random' battles are a chore if you just try to plow through them, the fun is to experiment and try to make a strategy that downs them in as little time as possible. If you aren't interested in that, well, yeah the battle system would blow for you.

Crystarium
Yeah, the whole thing should have been opened up right from the start. I don't see the wisdom of capping it every Chapter, since the costs increase exponentially it isn't like you can easily power through to the end of one at the beginning of the game. The real reason I suspect is so they know what every character would have and can tune the encounters accordingly. If you cap out Char A in RAV you might as well put the extra points into MED, but if it was open you might not bother. And then be screwed when you have a party switch and have to depend on that character as your healer.

Characters
Lot of Hope hate going around and I agree with it. Other than Hope I don't strongly dislike anyone in the game, which for me is doing well. I love Lightning as a character, probably because I also liked Cloud as a character. Also her animations are awesome.

FFXIII is too exhausting for me. When you have a game that stretches past 30 hours you need to have variety. The entire game is literally battles and cutscenes. And even when you hit Chapter 11, and the game supposedly opens up, your still just fighting enemies. This game blows.

Maybe they should have included a Blitzball variation and some quest which includes running around the whole world speaking to NPCs for an item. Hellz yeah, that's what this game needs.

No.

I'd also like to point out that the game really isn't very hard at all so there's no need to allow people to grind to death. I like a level cap because it lets me know how powerful I should be in a certain area, unlike other FF's where it's possible to under/over level. If your friends are finding it too difficult maybe they should use a different tactic, rather than just over levelling and strolling over bosses.

I'm not saying the game was easy. Final Fantasy games always give me a bit of bother, particularly the final bosses, and this one was no different, but there was nothing so difficult that a couple of retries and switching of tactics couldn't fix.

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Originally Posted by VeloZer0

Story/Characters
I've so far (Ch11) found it to be all characters no story. Quite frankly I am getting tired of drawn out character exposition. Not to mention we know nothing about any characters other than the main party. I'm usually a plot development > character development type of guy, but I am willing to chalk up my growing disinterest in cutsceens to personal preference.
I don't like the idea of a scene at the start/end of a chapter. Dividing games into 'chapters' really seems to make the story seem un-natural and contrived to me. I feel the story should always be ongoing. Think back to previous FFs. The idea that they could only stop to talk at set intervals would be ludicrous.


Linearity
I don't mind this all that much, I actually really got turned off when it opened up in Ch11 :D My main beef is that nowadays it seems to be a choice between straight line dungeon and wide open dungeon. Both are not intricate and I find them equally uninspired. I personally like random battles better than ones that appear on the field map, but I don't think this system is appreciably worse.

Stagger
Buff/Heal/Damage? Isn't that what happens in EVERY Final Fantasy title? 'Random' battles are a chore if you just try to plow through them, the fun is to experiment and try to make a strategy that downs them in as little time as possible. If you aren't interested in that, well, yeah the battle system would blow for you.

Crystarium
Yeah, the whole thing should have been opened up right from the start. I don't see the wisdom of capping it every Chapter, since the costs increase exponentially it isn't like you can easily power through to the end of one at the beginning of the game. The real reason I suspect is so they know what every character would have and can tune the encounters accordingly. If you cap out Char A in RAV you might as well put the extra points into MED, but if it was open you might not bother. And then be screwed when you have a party switch and have to depend on that character as your healer.

Characters
Lot of Hope hate going around and I agree with it. Other than Hope I don't strongly dislike anyone in the game, which for me is doing well. I love Lightning as a character, probably because I also liked Cloud as a character. Also her animations are awesome.

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I found all this to be exactly how I felt. I liked the absolute power you can have if you do master the Paradigm system. Also, what isn't exactly as linear as FFX here? That was a great game and the linearity almost drives the game. I would rather synthesize than dodge 200 lightning bolts. And if you want to level, run back and forth in a place that houses a lot of enemies. I like this game much more than XII, but it might be because there's more story or I just really despise the Ivalice Alliance.

I have plenty of hate to give this game and unlike most, I didn't even have to buy it to know it ;)

I will be back.

maybe you're too used to other FF games and want this game to be just like them? I don't expect FF games to be similar and I think it's refreshing when they're trying something else.

The problem with FFXIII's linearity is that any variety offered is completely superficial. 95% of the maps are the same (occasionally) twisting hallway except for the visuals and the species of enemies placed in your way.

Each chapter or sub-chapter is effectively the story equivalent of a campaign "mission" from a game like Call of Duty. Except, the mission objective in FFXIII is identical for every chapter: fight to the end of the hallway and kill the boss so you can get to the next mission.

A game with the development time of FFXIII and the technology now available deserved better. You can still have your story-driven game without giving your audience the feeling that they are being rail-roaded into every battle and one and only one outcome at each juncture...I give you: Deus Ex.

The development team IMO may have dreamed big but ended up thinking incredibly small, relying on the simplest way to achieve what they wanted. That goes from the maps, to the battle system, to the storytelling and world-building.

The entire race-to-stagger mentality of the battle system eliminated some of the variety the player could add his/herself to the battle system (I want my Steal and Gil Toss back!), and handing the reigns for 2/3 of the party to the AI meant that experimenting with buffs and crowd control was often costly or simply out of the question.

This game catered to people who crave the cheap thrill of winning battles, usually with minimal problem-solving, while offering the shallow, sappy love story (and the corresponding music :roll2 ) that most FF fans go gaga for. It will certainly rank, in most fans' minds, as one of the greats, but from the standpoint of game design it's a very poor showing for what could have been accomplished given the time and tech IMO.

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Originally Posted by Jings

I'd also like to point out that the game really isn't very hard at all so there's no need to allow people to grind to death.

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I disagree. There is a pretty sharp difficulty spike at Chapter 11 which requires you to grind.

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Originally Posted by Dreddz

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Originally Posted by Jings

I'd also like to point out that the game really isn't very hard at all so there's no need to allow people to grind to death.

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I disagree. There is a pretty sharp difficulty spike at Chapter 11 which requires you to grind.

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Like i said before, i didn't have too much trouble, but i understand why my friends are having trouble. I died several times which is something that usually doesn't happen to me through the main story of any Final Fantasy, only when going after some of the harder enemies. But when they take lightening from you and your left without a commando, that throws you off because until you figure out another way to halt the chain gauge from depleting you can't stagger anything. When you're playing with just lightening and hope, hope is very easily KO'd (I'm reffering to Feral Behemoth encounters here) Trying to revive him is a waste of time but try fighting on your own... you'll never kill a feral behemoth without staggering it.

I guess to people who adapt quickly or more skilled players, these things aren't really a problem. But think of it from someones point of view who plays less RPG's or people who have never played a Final Fantasy before. Can you honestly tell me this game is that easy?

This wasn't directed at you btw dreddz, but to the post you quoted

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Originally Posted by Dreddz

I disagree. There is a pretty sharp difficulty spike at Chapter 11 which requires you to grind.

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I concur. Through me for a loop at first.

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The problem with FFXIII's linearity is that any variety offered is completely superficial. 95% of the maps are the same (occasionally) twisting hallway except for the visuals and the species of enemies placed in your way.

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Though FFXIII/X is/was essentially a long straight path from A to B I found the areas in FFXII to be big boring wide open paths from A to B. It is really all the same to me.

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This game catered to people who crave the cheap thrill of winning battles,

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I'm in total agreement there.

Quote:

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The entire race-to-stagger mentality of the battle system eliminated some of the variety the player could add his/herself to the battle system (I want my Steal and Gil Toss back!), and handing the reigns for 2/3 of the party to the AI meant that experimenting with buffs and crowd control was often costly or simply out of the question.

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yeah....

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I would rather synthesize than dodge 200 lightning bolts.

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I think they both suck, but 200 lightning bolts is way faster.

Ok I am back as promised and since this is a hate thread I guess it is the lover's who will be off topic. I highly recommend that if you get emotional about:

Final Fantasy as a franchise
Square Enix as a company
Final Fantasy XII and XIII as "games"

that you do not read this.

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First I will start with a quote which I read on someone else’s review:

"The most important part of a RPG is the player feeling like they are taking the role of a character in a fully realised fantasy world. They can explore, visit various towns and places, talk to people, customise their character, collect various items, and defeat monsters. The story is not the focus of the experience and is only there to make the atmosphere of the fantasy world more interesting and engaging during the course of the game." ~ Yuji Horii (Creator of the JRPG genre/ Supervisor: Chrono Trigger)

Final Fantasy VII was an eye opener for me. I started playing games when I was 5 years old, and I have a great passion for them. Up until 1997 I thought the best games consisted of levels (like sonic), with 2D linear nature. The Playstation and FFVII changed all that.

From the first FMV and bombing mission to the end, my perceptions of what constituted a great game were forever changed. Until then I considered the likes of 2D Sonic and 2D Mario to be the greatest games of all time (they are still excellent). It never occurred to me that there could be anything else....I never knew what an RPG was...

After VII I was thrilled to see that VIII was being made, and that too ended up as a masterpiece. Then came IX, and although I didn't take to the story as much, the game was still a masterpiece. Then X for PS2, and that too was a masterpiece. I had become over confident; I thought Final Fantasy was a game series that simply could not be mediocre.

Then Sakaguchi parted company with Square, and Enix merged. Final Fantasy X-2 came along and, well, you can imagine what I thought there. I loaded it up, and could not believe what had happened. The game was a travesty. The characters had been butchered and it was obviously a pathetic cash in. I did not play any more than 2 hours. It was god awful (at least it's got reasonable gameplay though)

But blips happen, I thought...and maybe being a sequel they just made a mistake... XII was the next main game and surely that would be back to winning ways? WRONG.

And so now we come to the meat of it. We come to the problem that is blighting this series. Square Enix now has a monopoly over RPG franchise (or at least it has a massive stranglehold, especially in Japan). It has a fan base that has been growing since at least FFVI for some people. It no longer needs to make great games in order that it sells, and as a company its first duty is to sell. Let us not kid ourselves about that. But sadly, today it is ALL about cashing in and they know that if they slap "Final Fantasy" on the cover, most fans will buy it. There have already been numerous people on this very forum who have said:

"I have read the reviews, but I will still be buying it first day"

And I have seen comments all over forums like:

"From what I have read I will probably hate this one, but this is Final Fantasy"

As long as this approach to the franchise continues, the producers will not be kicked off their backsides into making great games. There seems to be a sizeable number here and elsewhere who see Final Fantasy XII and XIII as "great games". When we compare them to their predecessors, this simply is not the case.

What we had with XII was a rather crap pseudo-political story, masquerading as "deep" (and you will see that word everywhere when it is in fact just a fan trying to make the useless story hold weight). The character development was next to 0, and this isn't an opinion, it is a fact. That was my biggest gripe with it, but XII also was the first FF game to do away with the usual battle dynamics.

As much as some people try to protest otherwise, Gameplay is at least HALF a great Final Fantasy or RPG or ANY game. That is why it is called a GAME and not an INTERACTIVE MOVIE. Final Fantasy XII took away the player and added in AI. For the life of me, I cannot understand why some people still call the Gambit system "Great" - it isn't. It is a system that allowed you frequently, to add "cure if less than 80" and attack, then watch the computer slash away mindlessly. It was actually you doing the programmers job, and then watching the system play itself. Noughts and Crosses (tic-tac-toe) is more "deep".

In other words, the Gambit system was a dumbed down horror designed purely to fit in with the near MMORPG type game. Let us be clear here about 1 thing. The Gambit system was utterly flawed, dumbed down and took gameplay AWAY from a player.

Then we had the summons in XII, which were a liability. They took away your MP and you ended up running away hoping the summon would do a move before it was finished off. The summon again simply fought without any interaction (FFX's were a step in the correct direction, as they GAVE control to the player).

Treasure was relegated to being random with simple Gil amounts and other useless items; the side quests were...yes you guessed it- More tedious fighting! The whole game was a rather shoddy attempt, and most of the dynamics of what makes a great RPG were taken away in favour of "change".

You might be wondering what any of this has to do with XIII? Well, it has a lot to do with it. What X-2, XII and all these cash in sequels of VII have demonstrated is that Square Enix are concerned now ONLY about money and using graphical power as a substitute for a great story and gameplay. As stated, they now take the fan base for granted; maybe they are correct in that assumption because the fan base seems to be reasonably content with these poor excuses that they are churning out.

What really frustrates me is that like a bunch of sheep, the fan base as a whole has lapped it all up and accepted it as "moving on" or "change for the better" or a number of excuses. Let us be clear here again:

- Changing something for the worse is not a good thing

- Taking gameplay away from a game and placing it in the hands of AI or cheap dynamics is not a good thing

- Taking away from anything is not adding to it. This is a basic and fundamental law of mathematics.

So we now come to XIII. After XII, I thought, "XIII is the franchise's last chance for me. I don't want to see graphics over substance. I want to see a decent RPG, and it can't possibly be worse than XII"

Well guess what…it is. When I found out that the Summons turn into vehicles and serve little purpose in battle, I feared the worst. Then I saw some of the animations, I knew it was going to be a "Graphics over substance" fiasco. The problem is, we have now given 50GB blu-ray discs to companies who have no responsibility and know that they can use this space to pump up useless and overly long cut scenes to please the average Joe. The new power of the PS3 has allowed them to go further than ever before at turning an RPG into a movie, and guess what Kitase studied to be?

The criticisms of XIII have been endless and it is like a ball of wool that when you hold one end and let it go down a hill, it just keeps unravelling until there is nothing left (except the Emperor’s new clothes). XII was a piss poor effort by the Sakaguchi standard, but XIII takes the biscuit and is imho one of the worst games ever made.

Why is that? BECAUSE IT ISN'T A GAME. It now has:

- 2 characters you cannot control AT ALL.

- Cut scenes, and too many of them with little to do in between

- Shops at a save point and these shops don’t serve the same necessity as usual

- Dumbed down inventory

- Very few towns and those that there are, are not at all the same as the old kind where you explored them (their shops etc), whilst talking to people who made the adventure feel more real.

- A paradigm system, where you basically shift job options as fast as you can and watch your character mindlessly attack.

- An auto battle function that works for the most part and so leaves you doing nothing except again watching the computer do it all for you.

- A corridor for 20+ hours, that has this format: Poor battle - Walk - cut scene - walk poor battle - cut scene - boss There is very little deviation or time to stop and explore like in old FF's. You are forced forwards.

- Literally linear. Let us not get bogged down with misdirection’s such as "Final Fantasy has always been linear", when I say linear I mean, this game is literally 1 line for a lot of the game with no purpose but to bring you to the next cut scene. Final Fantasy X allowed you to go back to all game areas (and this sometimes served a purpose such as minigames or hunting or locating extra stuff), and it allowed you to explore. This game has precious little of this. To claim this game is as linear as X is simply inaccurate. Fact.

- No minigames because it was "too difficult in HD" [1]

- Side quests again very often relegated to more battles

- NPC are few, and not interactive like old. Now they just spout generic phrases as you walk on by. The excuse to this is "It is part of the story, that's why" - No it isn't. The reason there are no real NPC is because it was a design choice in the same fashion as taking away traditional towns was. Traditional towns were abandoned because "It was too difficult to do in HD" [1] i.e. laziness and spending obscene amounts of time/money on cut scenes. (One worker told a gamesite that she was working on 1 rock for 3 days and another said this is normal for their team [2]). No amount of pathetic excuses are going to change that.

What is it about the above that is "progress"? If you take away things and don't add anything to replace it, how can that be progress? It isn't. Some come back to this list of faults saying, "I like the game without those things". Whilst this is their choice, they are denying me the right to enjoy these things and at the same time are accepting a watered down product for the same price. I am sure some people enjoy their whole holidays tied to a beach, it doesn't mean *I* wanna be on a beach the whole smurfin' time. The idea is that we have A CHOICE and that we have as much diversity and SUBSTANCE in a product as possible.

Final fantasy XIII isn't it and it isn't close.

If this "game" didn't have the "Final Fantasy" tag, those reviews you saw by the likes of Gamespot would be a 5 or 6, and this "game" would not be cherished at all but widely seen as a complete failure. Let us get over this idea that Final Fantasy is a franchise that can't do wrong. It has done. It has veered off the tracks and it did so after X. It is now PURELY a money spinner; it has now been designed to appeal to a mass market and not to the core of RPG fans as you know them. All that matters now is sales, and they will churn out remakes, rehashes, sequels, prequels, and multiple games of the same title to sell as much as is possible.

Unfortunately there is another fundamental law here- when you have too much quantity you have too little quality; this is also what is happening here with the franchise and company.

So until this change reverses, I will be getting an Xbox and jumping onto Sakaguchi's ship, starting with Lost Odyssey. I don't suppose this little rant has actually swung anyone's opinion one way or another sadly, but that is ok, as long as I am not forced to pay for this rubbish.

I learned my lesson after X-2 and XII, and I made damn sure to watch 100's of vids and read reviews before buying this game, and that is why I know it isn't any good without having to play it. The only thing I can't review for you is the story, but from what I can gather it is nothing special and I am afraid story can't save this Titanic.


Daniel



Sources:

[1] Gamasutra - News - GDC: FF XIII Director - Production Drove Content Decisions, Elements Will Return
[2] http://ps3.nowgamer.com/reviews/ps3/...l-fantasy-xiii


For further reading about this game, I suggest you read the following reviews, especially the first:

For further reading about this game, I suggest you read the following reviews, especially the first:

GZay2Stay's reader review of Final Fantasy XIII for PlayStation 3

http://apps.metacritic.com//games/usercomments.jsp?id_string=6917:wNB9DoNf$XWgKpHz4rvTWQ**


NorwegianPrince's reader review of Final Fantasy XIII for PlayStation 3

jaymrobinson's reader review of Final Fantasy XIII for PlayStation 3


5107h's reader review of Final Fantasy XIII for PlayStation 3

havenwood87's reader review of Final Fantasy XIII for PlayStation 3

TheMammoth731's reader review of Final Fantasy XIII for PlayStation 3

Obviously SE is a company out to make money, but other than the choice to make it non-exclusive, I don't see how you can direct that criticism at FFXIII; if anything. its lengthy, difficult battles would seem to make it LESS likely to appeal to the broadest possible audience.

Also, I think FFXII and XIII are both better than FFVIII and X, though for their gameplay more than their story (and I'm someone who usually chooses characters and story over gameplay -- see: Lunar SSSC, one of my favorite RPGs).

Destructoid - Review: Final Fantasy XIII

Sorry missed one, it has gone lower than edge which is how I like it :D

Velozer0 I obviously share a lot of these thoughts what with having started this thread. Two things i'm going to have to disagree with (Though not in too much detail as it's off topic)

Firstly, FFVIII a masterpiece? FFVIII is easily the most vile thing i have ever played, it doesn't have a single redeeming quality, everything, absolutley everything in that game is flawed to the bone.

Secondly, FFXII has flaws (summons, quickenings etc are horrible) The gambit system is there if you want it, it's not mandatory! Unlike in FFXIII you can switch to any character and input their commands, just slow down the battle speed and you can play it like any other Final Fantasy. If you think you can beat Yiazmat or Zodiark while being completley reliant on the gambit system, sadly you are wrong. I don't see how you can sit there and call it such a horrible game when it has all the customization and exploration you accuse FFXIII of lacking. For that matter, you complain FFXIII has too much character depth and story and FFXII doesn't have enough. It seems your personal taste in what makes a good game is a very very fine line somewhere between FFXII and FXIII as repeatedly you mention, one does not have enough and the other has too much.

Back on Topic, there's nothing i have to add velozer0 pretty much said it all.

You obviously haven't read what I wrote, I did not say FF13 story had depth, I said it had too many cutscenes. XII had not as many simply because there was no story.

You mention 2 super bosses in XII an dtry to pretend that this makes up for the actual game being able to play itself almost until the end. What kind of argument do you think that is? All that tells me is you simply haven't got an answer :)

And on those 2 bosses, all they had was a ridiculous pumped up HP, and apparently yes, you could leave the console on over night with no interaction if you set the gambits right. I didn't get that far because I sold the game after the first week ;)

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Originally Posted by seiferalmasy2

You obviously haven't read what I wrote, I did not say FF13 story had depth, I said it had too many cutscenes. XII had not as many simply because there was no story.

You mention 2 super bosses in XII an dtry to pretend that this makes up for the actual game being able to play itself almost until the end. What kind of argument do you think that is? All that tells me is you simply haven't got an answer :)

And on those 2 bosses, all they had was a ridiculous pumped up HP, and apparently yes, you could leave the console on over night with no interaction if you set the gambits right. I didn't get that far because I sold the game after the first week ;)

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My post was directed at at velozer0 mate.

And as i said, (putting aside the super boss example i used simpley because they were the first battles to come to mind) The gambit system is there if you WANT it. Unlike FFXIII you can turn it off and play the game the same as any other Final Fantasy. Slow down the battle speed and you have pleanty of time to switch to other characters and input commands. The argument "Gambits play it for you" is redundent because nobody is forcing you to use them.

I'd also like to add that at least you have control of your party. FFXIII seriously limits what you can control with your party. Apart from changing their class they are completley dependent on AI. I would then argue that FFXIII plays more of the game for you than FFXII does

I couldn't get into the story or feel anything for the characters (despite hate for Fang and Hope). Everybody seemed really bland and the plot moved along way too slowly for me especially since not a lot really happens and after forcing myself to beat the game and recalling all the events I just kinda thought "wow, was that really 50 hours worth of storytelling?". The thing is a lot of people feel the complete opposite and say this is a great cast, possibly the best in an FF game ever, and an amazing plot so maybe it's just me getting older, I don't know.

The world is gorgeous but it feels kinda cold and empty, I didn't think the omission of towns would be a big deal to me but it really isn't the same not having that sort of interaction even if it's with npc's. Not only that but there are very few named characters outside the main party and the vast majority of those have roles so minor it really wouldn't have made a difference if they were another monster or not.

I already spoke about this in another thread but I didn't really like the music either, nothing ever stands out and sticks with you like in other Final Fantasy games or most good rpg's for that matter. It was just kinda there and there was nothing special about it, it was pretty forgettable.

The common consensus amongst people who like this game is that people who don't like it either went into the game with a mindset of "I'm going to hate this no matter what" or that they expected specific elements that weren't there. I can honestly say I really wanted to like this game and cut it a lot of breaks that I wouldn't have if it weren't a Final Fantasy, I even finished it because I was hoping that somewhere down the line it would grow on me. All I expected out of this game was a good rpg and sadly it didn't deliver

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Originally Posted by Shin Gouken

Velozer0 I obviously share a lot of these thoughts what with having started this thread. Two things i'm going to have to disagree with (Though not in too much detail as it's off topic)

Firstly, FFVIII a masterpiece? FFVIII is easily the most vile thing i have ever played, it doesn't have a single redeeming quality, everything, absolutley everything in that game is flawed to the bone.

Secondly, FFXII has flaws (summons, quickenings etc are horrible) The gambit system is there if you want it, it's not mandatory! Unlike in FFXIII you can switch to any character and input their commands, just slow down the battle speed and you can play it like any other Final Fantasy. If you think you can beat Yiazmat or Zodiark while being completley reliant on the gambit system, sadly you are wrong. I don't see how you can sit there and call it such a horrible game when it has all the customization and exploration you accuse FFXIII of lacking. For that matter, you complain FFXIII has too much character depth and story and FFXII doesn't have enough. It seems your personal taste in what makes a good game is a very very fine line somewhere between FFXII and FXIII as repeatedly you mention, one does not have enough and the other has too much.

Back on Topic, there's nothing i have to add velozer0 pretty much said it all.

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I think your getting that from somewhere else, I never mentioned FFVIII/FFXII. They are my two most disliked FF titles, so I would never have cited them as examples of good design :D

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The argument "Gambits play it for you" is redundent because nobody is forcing you to use them.

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My beef with gambits is that I used them to automate all the tasks I found redundant, and then there was nothing left. It isn't so much that they ruined the gameplay, its that (to me) they exposed the lack of depth in it. I personally love programing stuff.

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I would then argue that FFXIII plays more of the game for you than FFXII does

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In FFXII I completed entire strings of dungeons without doing anything more than moving my analog stick. FFXIII forces you to use the AI more, but it also sets the minimum threshold for player interaction a lot higher.

The way I see it, in traditional JRPGs the focus in battle is being efficient in resource management (MP/items) so that you can survive the dungeon. FFXIII is the culmination of a trend that places the emphasis on using time/turns as efficiently as possible in battle to end it as quickly as possible. The idea was to make encounters more challenging, dungeons less challenging. I personally don't like it nearly as much, but I don't think it is all that bad either. And face it, JRPGs are dieing in the NA market, they need something to spice it up.


Suikojowy, I agree with everything you said in your post, except the conclusion. "All I expected out of this game was a good rpg and sadly it didn't deliver" For me a decent RPG is something that keeps me entertained, and it is doing that. Certainly not a great game, but definitely good.

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Originally Posted by VeloZer0

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Originally Posted by Shin Gouken

Velozer0 I obviously share a lot of these thoughts what with having started this thread. Two things i'm going to have to disagree with (Though not in too much detail as it's off topic)

Firstly, FFVIII a masterpiece? FFVIII is easily the most vile thing i have ever played, it doesn't have a single redeeming quality, everything, absolutley everything in that game is flawed to the bone.

Secondly, FFXII has flaws (summons, quickenings etc are horrible) The gambit system is there if you want it, it's not mandatory! Unlike in FFXIII you can switch to any character and input their commands, just slow down the battle speed and you can play it like any other Final Fantasy. If you think you can beat Yiazmat or Zodiark while being completley reliant on the gambit system, sadly you are wrong. I don't see how you can sit there and call it such a horrible game when it has all the customization and exploration you accuse FFXIII of lacking. For that matter, you complain FFXIII has too much character depth and story and FFXII doesn't have enough. It seems your personal taste in what makes a good game is a very very fine line somewhere between FFXII and FXIII as repeatedly you mention, one does not have enough and the other has too much.

Back on Topic, there's nothing i have to add velozer0 pretty much said it all.

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I think your getting that from somewhere else, I never mentioned FFVIII/FFXII. They are my two most disliked FF titles, so I would never have cited them as examples of good design :D

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The argument "Gambits play it for you" is redundent because nobody is forcing you to use them.

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My beef with gambits is that I used them to automate all the tasks I found redundant, and then there was nothing left. It isn't so much that they ruined the gameplay, its that (to me) they exposed the lack of depth in it. I personally love programing stuff.

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I would then argue that FFXIII plays more of the game for you than FFXII does

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In FFXII I completed entire strings of dungeons without doing anything more than moving my analog stick. FFXIII forces you to use the AI more, but it also sets the minimum threshold for player interaction a lot higher.

The way I see it, in traditional JRPGs the focus in battle is being efficient in resource management (MP/items) so that you can survive the dungeon. FFXIII is the culmination of a trend that places the emphasis on using time/turns as efficiently as possible in battle to end it as quickly as possible. The idea was to make encounters more challenging, dungeons less challenging. I personally don't like it nearly as much, but I don't think it is all that bad either. And face it, JRPGs are dieing in the NA market, they need something to spice it up.


Suikojowy, I agree with everything you said in your post, except the conclusion. "All I expected out of this game was a good rpg and sadly it didn't deliver" For me a decent RPG is something that keeps me entertained, and it is doing that. Certainly not a great game, but definitely good.

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Mate i apologize, my post was directed at Seiferalmasy, that's what i get for posting on forums in a rush when i'm at work.

I'm going to have to disagree with the lack of depth in FFXII gameplay. There's no more or less depth in it than most other Final Fantasies, this is merely your perception from your use of gambits. Play through the game without gambits and you'll take back that statement i garantee.

Sorry to not comment on your other points, i'm still at work.

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Originally Posted by Shin Gouken

I would then argue that FFXIII plays more of the game for you than FFXII does

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I would agree....but I found them both terrible. In fact I am not so sure, I think the fact XII gives you at least a bit of customisation makes it beat XII and it gives you a choice. But Both are the most useless systems by a long stretch imho.

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Originally Posted by seiferalmasy2

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Originally Posted by Shin Gouken

I would then argue that FFXIII plays more of the game for you than FFXII does

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I would agree....but I found them both terrible. In fact I am not so sure, I think the fact XII gives you at least a bit of customisation makes it beat XII and it gives you a choice. But Both are the most useless systems by a long stretch imho.

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I really enjoyed it, racked up 300+ hours on my last playthrough and am considering starting a new file. But that's obviously a matter of taste as it clearly gets pleanty of both love and hate. Surprisingly i think FFX's turn system was probabley the best of any battle system ive experienced. Unfortunatley i stand by my initial view of FFXIII having the worst :(

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Originally Posted by Shin Gouken

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Originally Posted by seiferalmasy2

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Originally Posted by Shin Gouken

I would then argue that FFXIII plays more of the game for you than FFXII does

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I would agree....but I found them both terrible. In fact I am not so sure, I think the fact XII gives you at least a bit of customisation makes it beat XII and it gives you a choice. But Both are the most useless systems by a long stretch imho.

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I really enjoyed it, racked up 300+ hours on my last playthrough and am considering starting a new file. But that's obviously a matter of taste as it clearly gets pleanty of both love and hate. Surprisingly i think FFX's turn system was probabley the best of any battle system ive experienced. Unfortunatley i stand by my initial view of FFXIII having the worst :(

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Definately agreed again. X was a step in the correct direction with regards to its battle system, having the aeons end up as more battle characters was just brilliant....

Hmmm...

- Serious hate and dislike by a vocal minority after release? Check.
- Radically different from previous entries in the series? Check.
- Chocobos, Cid and story? Check.
- Sidequests? Check.

Sounds like your average Final Fantasy to me. And sounds like XII all over again. Carry on SE, you clearly delivered another good one.

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Originally Posted by VeloZer0

Lot of Hope hate going around and I agree with it.

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And I think anyone who agrees with it is a damn fool.:mad2:

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Originally Posted by Rodney

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Originally Posted by VeloZer0

Lot of Hope hate going around and I agree with it.

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And I think anyone who agrees with it is a damn fool.:mad2:

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And I agree with that!

Hope's not given a fair chance at all. Just admit it, people have hated it from the moment he was revealed just because he was a kid. They see him as whiny because that's how the ywant him to be just so they can hate him and call XIII a bad game. While Hope's actually the only kid in the entire series so far who actually had the right to complain. But of course, reasons don't matter. He's a kid and he complains. HATE!!!

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Originally Posted by Elpizo

Hmmm...

- Serious hate and dislike by a vocal minority after release? Check.
- Radically different from previous entries in the series? Check.
- Chocobos, Cid and story? Check.
- Sidequests? Check.

Sounds like your average Final Fantasy to me. And sounds like XII all over again. Carry on SE, you clearly delivered another good one.

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- Serious hate by more game magazines and online sites than ever before, edge gave it 50 check

- Radically different in a bad way check

- Sidequests mostly dumb battles - check

- took away tons of RPG elements because it was "too hard to in in HD" check

- deluded fanbase and/or people trying to protect said game and laughably claim it is status quo....CHECK

:D:jess:

Ah, so now those who like it are deluded? You are not worth debating with, Seifer.

I have to say, one thing that really bugged me was that they seemed to have ideas for scenes they wanted in the trailers, then built the rest of the story around that. Really, the Snow/Hope confrontation, the Sazh/Vanille confrontation, the scene with Snow outside of Hope's house, these were easily the best parts of the plot. The rest feels rather uninspired.

The battle system is certainly a mess, as I hate that it punishes you for experimenting and playing strategically to minimize the damage you take while maximizing your output. If you try to do anything other than brute force your way through the game, you're pretty sure to get low ratings, and therefore less items.

The party suddenly deciding to fight(SPOILER)Orphan after spending half the game trying to avoid it without any consideration stands out as the biggest plothole in the entire franchise. Even worse than Square trying to cover up its own continuity dick up in VII, Crisis Core, and Last Order by saying they were all from different points of view.

I mean, really, you spend half the game dealing with all this stock "We make our own destiny" and "We'll never do what you want!" only for (SPOILER)Orphan to show up and suddenly it's "OMG BIG MONSTER, RPG INSTINCTS KICKING IN!! PREPARE TO DIIIIIEEEE!!!"

The linearity and lack of towns were crippling. This is the first Final Fantasy that I felt was FAR too long for its own good. By chapter 11, I felt it was very tiresome going through the "Mooks, cutcsene, boss, rinse, repeat" routine with no exploration to be had to break up the monotony. Oh, and everyone who says chapter 11 helps break up the linearity by offering those lame quests? No, I refuse to run around killing monsters in a specific order with no reason other than a quick text blurb of some dead guy going "Kill that flan kthxbai." That's not sidequesting, that's running errands with no plot reward. Same reson I never bought into that monster arena bull from X.

The eidolon battles were a mess, the eidolons themselves were pathetic in both design and usage, the gestalt mode made me facepalm, the game cheating me out of pre-emptive strikes for the last 3/4 of the game pissed me off, the fact that random encounters could kill you even though the game healed you after every encounter is a major design flaw, the fact that the game DID heal you after every battle was a major design flaw, the nixing of the defense and agilitiy stats streamlined the game way too much, while the synthesis was unnecessarily involved. The wild jumps in difficulty made my head spin, the monotonous enemy design was uninspired, especially the fal'Cie, characters of the perky, bubbly girl archetype need to be eliminated, Square's insistant use on "quirky" weapon types (Snow, Vanille, Hope, Lightning to a lesser degree [at least her gunblade actually functions as a, y'know, GUN]) needs to stop, I need to be able to pronounce the characters' last names for when I talk about them (Nilbaat? Kneel bat? What?!). Oh, and Square? DON'T TAKE CONTROL OF MY PARTY MEMBERS EVER AGAIN!! >:(

Would you believe that I really enjoyed this game? :p

(Hey, post #34! :beer:)

The reason why they fight (SPOILER)Orphan is better explained in the official guide (which I own). Basically (SPOILER) they didn't fight him because their focus said so, but to free the people of Cocoon from the fal'Cie. All of them. Including Orphan. Now Cocoon is free to start again, without the fal'Cie. It's basically freeing Ivalice from the Occuria all over again.

If it's not thought of ahead of time in order to include it in the game, it's a plothole to me ^-^

And yes, the Hope hate is based solely on the trailers, I bet. Which, I must admit, I was very eager to jump in on. But he's probably my favorite non-Sazh character in teh game (Cid and Yaag were pretty cool too, though)

I don't know guys, I kinda liked the battle system and a couple of the characters (although I like Lightning less than I do Cloud. Cloud's a punk who I felt for by the end of the game, Lightning's a b*tch who I can't bring myself to sympathize with. And then there's Hope...)

What I like to do in rpgs is spend most of my time before battle prepping my characters in the menus (ie, in FF6, I would decide what relics to give my characters, if I learned the right spells, what summons I should have equipped, etc.), so I feel the Paradigm system was fun in that regard. I also like thinking on the fly during battles (in FF4DS, I would decipher the boss's attack pattern and "ad lib" a strategy on the spot), so I felt that FF13's battle system was exactly what I was looking for. While I do like the freedom granted in an rpg, I'm also flexible enough to look past such a fault, although it does get a little monotonus at times.

But, that's just my 2 cents, I have read everyone's opinion and respect all of them. It's better than just saying "omg, they killed the series, dude". Some people don't even give legitimate reasons for why they don't like the game. Anyway, I, at least, feel like I got my 60 buck's worth.

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Originally Posted by Rodney

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Originally Posted by VeloZer0

Lot of Hope hate going around and I agree with it.

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And I think anyone who agrees with it is a damn fool.:mad2:

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Fight! Fight! Fight!

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EDIT: Oh hey, hello page3

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Oh, and everyone who says chapter 11 helps break up the linearity by offering those lame quests? No, I refuse to run around killing monsters in a specific order with no reason other than a quick text blurb of some dead guy going "Kill that flan kthxbai." That's not sidequesting, that's running errands with no plot reward. Same reson I never bought into that monster arena bull from X.

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Ch11 has completely robbed me of interest in this game. I will probably still slog through and finish just to see what happens, but completing it just to say I did is all that is driving me on.

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The reason why they fight (SPOILER) is better explained in the official guide (which I own)

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That is complete bull*#$%. I shouldn't have to buy anything other than the actual game to understand it. Pure laziness and profit mongering.

Also complete bull#$%^ is the idea that the only people who hate Hope are the ones that hated him from the trailers. Though I won't deny they exist it is entirely possible to dislike any character on their own merits. I love Lightning as a character, other people don't. I can deal with that, we just have different tastes. Writing off someone's tastes in characters are premeditated hate just because you happen to like the character is an extremely immature thing to do. Ch9 and onwards he is tolerable, I don't especially dislike or like him. Prior to that I felt he needed a swift kick in the teeth.

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Originally Posted by seiferalmasy2

- Serious hate by more game magazines and online sites than ever before, edge gave it 50 check

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*sighs*

Final Fantasy XIII (ps3) reviews at Metacritic.com

53 - Favourable
8- Mixed
1 - Unfavourable.

Yes, it was so hated upon! :roll2

Heck, this is just Western reviews!

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I'm not saying people can't hate it. Heck, I can't get into FFVIII and most of my friends LOVE the game. But I don't appreciate when people spout half-truths as fact, used unreliable sources as if they were credible and conveniently take things out of quotes out of context. All of which you have done in the past.

So there are no towns and no NPCs? Actually, there are it just Hello Plotyou are a wanted by the gov't (Sanctum) and loathed by masses, sure you're a real crowd pleaser. :roll2

Linear? Okay, I get this, it is very linear but most JPRGs, e.g. Final Fantasies, are as well. Sure, it is a spectrum where you have games like FFX and FFXIII on one end (very linear) and FFXII on the other (more open, but still linear). If you want sandbox, you are totally looking at the wrong genre, try Western and Console RPGs and MMORPGs.

Sidequests? Oh yeah they are basically like the hunts in FFXII. Though as far as asinine quests go hunting down a specific enemies/Marks is up there with being the world's bitch boy and running around exchanging items à la Legend of Zelda.

Combat System? Sure there is no micro-managing and that sucks for those who like to micro-manage. For the most part the AI is solid. And it is not the first RPG to only allow you to control a single character. Persona 3 is considered by many on of the best JRPG experience on the PS2 and you only control one character of a team of 4, and can change the AI setting of each team member accordingly in battle. I get that it is not everyone's cup of tea, but the battles can be difficult and rewarding at the same time.

Not a RPG? Yes, that gets misquoted a lot. If you read what was actually said it is reference to how they were trying to break the mold of the genre and not be confined within it. That's why the game, in certain respects, is so different from your typical RPG cuz that's what they were going for.

Bottom line: Final Fantasy means different things to most people though general there is a Cid and Chocobo among other recurring themes. However, at the end of the day, Final Fantasy, sadly, is whatever Sqaure-Enix says it is. :/

My point? While all the things I mention (as well as other things) can be turn off to people, at the end of the day it does not mean it is a bad game. Different, yes. Not everyone's cup of tea? Most definitely. Bad game? No.

Not liking/hating the game != bad game. Sure, it might be a bad game to you, but it is a far cry from being a bad game, objectively speaking.*

*By bad game, I mean a broken game that is not worth the DVD it was made on, and few--if any--people would actually enjoy the experience.

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Originally Posted by VeloZer0

Story/Characters
I've so far (Ch11) found it to be all characters no story. Quite frankly I am getting tired of drawn out character exposition. Not to mention we know nothing about any characters other than the main party. I'm usually a plot development > character development type of guy, but I am willing to chalk up my growing disinterest in cutsceens to personal preference.
I don't like the idea of a scene at the start/end of a chapter. Dividing games into 'chapters' really seems to make the story seem un-natural and contrived to me. I feel the story should always be ongoing. Think back to previous FFs. The idea that they could only stop to talk at set intervals would be ludicrous.


Linearity
I don't mind this all that much, I actually really got turned off when it opened up in Ch11 :D My main beef is that nowadays it seems to be a choice between straight line dungeon and wide open dungeon. Both are not intricate and I find them equally uninspired. I personally like random battles better than ones that appear on the field map, but I don't think this system is appreciably worse.

Stagger
Buff/Heal/Damage? Isn't that what happens in EVERY Final Fantasy title? 'Random' battles are a chore if you just try to plow through them, the fun is to experiment and try to make a strategy that downs them in as little time as possible. If you aren't interested in that, well, yeah the battle system would blow for you.

Crystarium
Yeah, the whole thing should have been opened up right from the start. I don't see the wisdom of capping it every Chapter, since the costs increase exponentially it isn't like you can easily power through to the end of one at the beginning of the game. The real reason I suspect is so they know what every character would have and can tune the encounters accordingly. If you cap out Char A in RAV you might as well put the extra points into MED, but if it was open you might not bother. And then be screwed when you have a party switch and have to depend on that character as your healer.

Characters
Lot of Hope hate going around and I agree with it. Other than Hope I don't strongly dislike anyone in the game, which for me is doing well. I love Lightning as a character, probably because I also liked Cloud as a character. Also her animations are awesome.

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I agree with practically everything you have said.

But on the note about Hope.. I actually liked Hope sure at the start he honestly annoyed me to no end but in a way i supposed i enjoyed watching him grow and his perspectives change for me Hope went from being the most intollerable little brat to like... well i don't know a rather intriguing character.

I know I said Hope got better, but I'm actually starting to dislike him more now. He went from an obnoxious whiner to a boring, learned-from-his-mistakes-now-he'll-inspire-others cliche. I thought he was going to be ok after he got over randomly blaming Snow, but I've just grown more bored of him. He had approximately 3 seconds of further development right before Alexander showed up to save the day, and that's it.

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Originally Posted by The Summoner of Leviathan

Quote:

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Originally Posted by seiferalmasy2

- Serious hate by more game magazines and online sites than ever before, edge gave it 50 check

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*sighs*

Final Fantasy XIII (ps3) reviews at Metacritic.com

53 - Favourable
8- Mixed
1 - Unfavourable.

Yes, it was so hated upon! :roll2

Heck, this is just Western reviews!

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I'm not saying people can't hate it. Heck, I can't get into FFVIII and most of my friends LOVE the game. But I don't appreciate when people spout half-truths as fact, used unreliable sources as if they were credible and conveniently take things out of quotes out of context. All of which you have done in the past.

So there are no towns and no NPCs? Actually, there are it just Hello Plotyou are a wanted by the gov't (Sanctum) and loathed by masses, sure you're a real crowd pleaser. :roll2

Linear? Okay, I get this, it is very linear but most JPRGs, e.g. Final Fantasies, are as well. Sure, it is a spectrum where you have games like FFX and FFXIII on one end (very linear) and FFXII on the other (more open, but still linear). If you want sandbox, you are totally looking at the wrong genre, try Western and Console RPGs and MMORPGs.

Sidequests? Oh yeah they are basically like the hunts in FFXII. Though as far as asinine quests go hunting down a specific enemies/Marks is up there with being the world's bitch boy and running around exchanging items à la Legend of Zelda.

Combat System? Sure there is no micro-managing and that sucks for those who like to micro-manage. For the most part the AI is solid. And it is not the first RPG to only allow you to control a single character. Persona 3 is considered by many on of the best JRPG experience on the PS2 and you only control one character of a team of 4, and can change the AI setting of each team member accordingly in battle. I get that it is not everyone's cup of tea, but the battles can be difficult and rewarding at the same time.

Not a RPG? Yes, that gets misquoted a lot. If you read what was actually said it is reference to how they were trying to break the mold of the genre and not be confined within it. That's why the game, in certain respects, is so different from your typical RPG cuz that's what they were going for.

Bottom line: Final Fantasy means different things to most people though general there is a Cid and Chocobo among other recurring themes. However, at the end of the day, Final Fantasy, sadly, is whatever Sqaure-Enix says it is. :/

My point? While all the things I mention (as well as other things) can be turn off to people, at the end of the day it does not mean it is a bad game. Different, yes. Not everyone's cup of tea? Most definitely. Bad game? No.

Not liking/hating the game != bad game. Sure, it might be a bad game to you, but it is a far cry from being a bad game, objectively speaking.*

*By bad game, I mean a broken game that is not worth the DVD it was made on, and few--if any--people would actually enjoy the experience.

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I don't recall anyone at any point saying this was a bad game. In my initial post, i listed reasons for why i personally dislike the game, and find comfort that despite a lot of different views, their are many people who share my complaints. This could be considered the greatest game ever for all i care, i will still dislike it. Anyway, this is a hate thread so if you don't like people bashing the game you could always go post in the love thread.

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While Hope's actually the only kid in the entire series so far who actually had the right to complain.

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Did he? Am i missing something? He has the right to complain for snow killing his mother? This is the problem i addressed in my initial post. Nobody can sympathize with his whinging because we know it wasn't snows fault. He needs to grow a pair and confront snow from the beginning rather than drag it out through half the game.

My post is marked more or less specifically at a few comments and obviously not yours. Though it was more lengthy than I intended, sorta became a rant, it was more address to some unfounded complaints, or at least some things that were said as fact but simply weren't. Such as it being largely received negatively by most media outlets when in fact it wasn't. It kinda went south from there.

Currently annoyed with how much Crystarium cost to upgrade and those stupid fish things that keep rushing me in (SPOILER)Orphan's Cradle.

Lessee... He and his motehr got forced on a train to certain death just for being there, his mother got killed, he's branded a l'Cie, all of the world wants to kill him, he can't go home anymore, everybody hates him just for existing, he has a focus to destroy the world he's lived in all his life, he doesn't even see himself as human anymore...

Nope, Hope has no reason to complain at all. That was sarcasm, by the way.

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Originally Posted by Elpizo

Lessee... He and his motehr got forced on a train to certain death just for being there, his mother got killed, he's branded a l'Cie, all of the world wants to kill him, he can't go home anymore, everybody hates him just for existing, he has a focus to destroy the world he's lived in all his life, he doesn't even see himself as human anymore...

Nope, Hope has no reason to complain at all. That was sarcasm, by the way.

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Yeah, but his whinging is focused on snow.

It would seem to me that his hatred for snow is a poor attempt add friction between two characters which is far too obvious and ultimatley only ends up defining hopes character.

Lightning vents out her frustration on Snow (and Sanctum) too. Where is all the Lightning hate? She's a total bitch, too, and blames Snow for things that are just as much her fault, too. So, ehm, let's start a hate Lightning faction too, okay? Then it's fair.

Lightning vents out her frustration on Snow, Hope on snow, Vanille on herself, Sahz on himself and so on. Most of them have somebody they complain about or hate against. Hope's just one of the many.

He's a teenager who just went trough something terrible (purge, death family, braded a l'cie, hated by the world, loss of humanity). He's confused and frightened, and tries to cope with his feelings. In no small part thanks to Lightning, his way of doing so is by turning his feelings to anger and hate, and directs it at Snow. This is not unrealistic, I've seen other teenagers do the same. So yeah, maybe he unrightly blames Snow. So does Lightning. And in fact, blaming someone unrightfully happens all the time in real life. It's realistic.

I doubt that seeing your mother plummet to her death would put you in the most stable mindset. All you know is that a man came to you, gave your mom a weapon, and led her away to certain death. Same reason why a wife might hate the army if her husband died in service, even if he had volunteered. It's not that it is Snow's fault, but he is directly responsible for her death.

And either way, Hope does admit that he was using his hate for Snow as a coping mechanism for his grief. This honestly makes his character arc the most realistic the series has ever had, in that that's very much how a normal teenager would react in the situation.

Oh, and by the way, I'm ALL for a Lightning-hate club. She became my least favorite between the time she beat up Sazh and punched Snow, two MUCH better characters than her. And she doesn't even have a reason for whining so much, as everything that happened the way it did was basically her fault for being a bitch.

I like Lightning. It's a change to see an actual strong female character that doesn't need a man to fall back on. She's got damn good reason to be as she is, she basically raised her muppet sister from a young age after the death of their parents, and lost her childhood to doing that. She fights to provide for Serah, and then her sister turns around and not only plans to marry someone who Lightning can't stand without telling her sister, but she basically unloads all of this information on Lighting during her birthday.

Yeah, it's not Serah's fault that she became an l'cie, but she should used something called tact. It's part of why her character annoys me so much, she's painted to be this absolute angel who can do no wrong and is loved by all, but she's pretty selfish, and doesn't seem to have a voice of her own. Even her fiancée carries her around and treats her more like a doll than a person.

And Lightning does admit that she's wrong later on, and that her way of things was a coping mechanism for what she had to become. She got dealt an unlucky hand, like Hope, but dealt with it the wrong way. A big part of her turning around is her teaching him that it's not the right way to do it.

*starts the Serah hate club* :D

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Originally Posted by Dreddz

FFXIII is too exhausting for me. When you have a game that stretches past 30 hours you need to have variety. The entire game is literally battles and cutscenes. And even when you hit Chapter 11, and the game supposedly opens up, your still just fighting enemies. This game blows.

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I just saved at the intermission between Chapters 10 and 11. Here's hoping the game starts to 'get good' as everyone says. Up to now it's been kind of a roller coaster of like and dislike. The first two or three chapters are dull, disorienting, and not at all gripping. From around 4-7, I was kind of getting into it as the plot and battle system started to open up. Around 8-10, started getting bored again.

The battle system is fun, of course, but it's completely and totally not enough to keep the game interesting for 60 hours. And really, I'm not sure that any single element from any game on its own is fun enough to carry a 60 hour game. Basically, I feel like I've had my fill of fun already. If the game does get "really good" in 11, then shame on SE for designing their game like this.

More criticism: SE are banking that the 60-hour slog is worth it because of the story. It's not - ever - in any game. It's not that good. It's a silly video game story with some moments of good stuff and some moments that are just dreadfully written. One scene in (SPOILER)Chapter 9 goes like this:

Snow calls around a corner to scare away some guards.
Lightning: What are you doing?
Snow: Thought I could scare 'em away.
Lightning: Don't you get it? The fal'Cie have them so conditioned to hate us. They'll never run away!
Snow: (smashing the wall) Damn those fal'Cie!

Completely embarrassing. More pointless and redundant than Kojima. This kind of utter garbage isn't worth the grind. I feel bad for all the people out there who genuinely and honestly play for the "story" when there's so much wonderful literature and cinema in the world.

At this point, I'm finishing the game because of misguided loyalty to the numbered series. I've generally returned games to the store for less than this.

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Originally Posted by Flying Arrow

I feel bad for all the people out there who genuinely and honestly play for the "story" when there's so much wonderful literature and cinema in the world.

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Now that is the ultimate point here, and you are completely correct. This is a game. First and foremost. It can never live up to Cinema or books in the capacity of story when written in this fashion and this is not a book or cinema....IT IS A GAME. Story is just to keep you interested but the game is the gameplay, minigames, sidequests, interaction.... If people are buying FF purely for story and then rating it 9/10 because of that or graphics...they need to get their heads out of their arses.

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Originally Posted by Flying Arrow

At this point, I'm finishing the game because of misguided loyalty to the numbered series. I've generally returned games to the store for less than this.

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I was like that once, I kept FFX-2 for a while before I sold it, but since then its got worse and I am afraid to say my allegience to the franchise has dwindled to nothing. I will always play and cherish VI-X and obviously I have a massive passion for those, but I will never buy a FF game again or play though one to the end if I do, simply because it is "Final Fantasy"

This is exactly what Square Enix loves and laughs at.

Saying that the story is inherently worse than cinema or books because it's in a video game makes me want to smack you both.

I hate this game because I haven't played it yet and I really want to but I can't! Also I hate all of you because you've played it and I really want to but I can't :nonono:

I like this game and all, but it is still majorly disappointing. Final Fantasy X is definitely one of the better games I have played, and I was thinking this would be a prime game for the PS3; one I'd look back on when I think of the best games I've played for the system. It simply isn't. It's good, just like the first Uncharted, Heavenly Sword, and Killzone 2, but I won't look it at like I do Demon's Souls, LittleBigPlanet, and Uncharted 2.

Great point on story not being able to carry a game for 60 hours. (I won't even get into my thoughts about the story not being good). I don't really like the combat system all that much, but I can't bring myself to be too hard on it. Quite frankly JRPGs are going down the tube market share wise. You can argue why, but quite frankly it is common industry knowledge that they have to do something. They attempted to innovate, plain and simple. Did they have a runaway success? I say no. But they tried.

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Saying that the story is inherently worse than cinema or books because it's in a video game makes me want to smack you both.

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Trying to use movie cutsceens to tell a story in a video game is just like copying a movie. Movies use visuals and audio stimulus to tell stories in the way books never could, likewise books use the ability to tell longer more intricate stories the way movies could never keep our attention for. For video game story telling to excel they need to do stuff that you can't do in books and cinema. FFXIII seems like it tells it's story in a movie wannabe format. Half of the cutsceens seem completely missable too.
Is video game story inherently worse? Hell no! Will it exceed movies by trying to copy them? Not a chance.
It seem like play the game->watch a scene->play the game->watch a scene-> you know the drill. Storytelling is completely divorced from game play. Stuff such as how the characters make comments as you run around the field go a million times further to flesh out their character than a whole bunch of pointless cutsceens interrupting the game.

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let's start a hate Lightning faction too, okay? Then it's fair.

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Where have you been? I've heard lots of people complain about her.

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This is not unrealistic, I've seen other teenagers do the same. So yeah, maybe he unrightly blames Snow. So does Lightning. And in fact, blaming someone unrightfully happens all the time in real life. It's realistic.

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I don't think anyone is complaining that it is unrealistic, just that it isn't enjoyable to sit through. I personally play games in my leisure time to experience stories and characters I like. If I want 100% realistic I will go talk to real people.

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One scene in (SPOILER) I feel bad for all the people out there who genuinely and honestly play for the "story" when there's so much wonderful literature and cinema in the world.

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After that scene I vividly remember thinking "why did they even include that in the game?".

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Originally Posted by arcanedude34

Saying that the story is inherently worse than cinema or books because it's in a video game makes me want to smack you both.

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My fault for being unclear.

The fact that it's a video game's story doesn't make it inherently worse, it's just worse because it smurfing sucks. I called it a 'video game story' because, despite being longer than most games', XIII's story is just as trite, shallow, and clearly written for those with the mentality of an intellectually stunted 15-year-old as most others in the medium.

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Originally Posted by VeloZer0

After that scene I vividly remember thinking "why did they even include that in the game?".

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It's absolutely maddening to sit through scenes like these, although this is arguably the worst so far. General comic relief turns into the most mind-numbing exchange in the whole game. Who is running the writing staff over at SE? Did anyone even watch this before release? I refuse to chalk this up to cultural differences (as so many gamers these days tend to do), it's just plain garbage. This isn't good work on the part of SE and nothing can convince me otherwise.

Need to breathe now.

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Originally Posted by arcanedude34

Saying that the story is inherently worse than cinema or books because it's in a video game makes me want to smack you both.

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Nobody said that. What was said is that games will never be able to match movies and that is for good reasons none of them "inherently". It is all to do with the fact that:

Games are developed with major time constraints and effort is plowed into graphics and gameplay as well as story. Movies and especially books, are designed for story. If you think any FF is going to beat the best movies or Lord of the Rings or The Green Mile or any number of classics as a book....think again.

Games are called games for a good reason, and if you start taking away the gameplay and dump in 10 hours of cutscenes (which is more than most movies), you end up with an interactive movie, and that is not what most gamers buy games for.

If I want a 60% story 40% action/graphics, I will go to the cinema. There I will be holding popcorn. When I play a game, I do not expect to be sat there like a crash dummy watching hours of cinematics and pressing X on its own.

How anyone can empathize with Cloud and not Lightning is beyond me.

There is a bunch of Cloud hate out there too. I'm going to bet the same people for the most part like and dislike them both.

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Nobody said that. What was said is that games will never be able to match movies and that is for good reasons none of them "inherently". It is all to do with the fact that:

Games are developed with major time constraints and effort is plowed into graphics and gameplay as well as story. Movies and especially books, are designed for story. If you think any FF is going to beat the best movies or Lord of the Rings or The Green Mile or any number of classics as a book....think again.

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A movie is 90 minutes, a game is far longer. So although the effort has to be split between gameplay and story games can tell stories that movies quite simply can't. Something like FFVII would be impossible to make a movie out of. Also the fact that games have to focus on graphics as well is somewhat of a moot point, as movies have huge budgets for special effects and name brand actors.

In terms of the story books kick movies across the floor like nobody's business. But it isn't a story we are talking about, it is story telling. The same story told by two different people can vary amazingly in quality. Though movies can't compete story wise with books, they have stuff like visuals and sounds to enhance the storytelling art. The trick is to cater to the strengths of your medium.
Game developers need to realize games are not movies with gameplay spliced in between. Only then can they use the medium to it's potential to achieve storytelling on par with other more traditional outlets. (Man that was a pretentious sentence and a half. :)) Not saying that they haven't done well in the past, or that I know all the answers on the perfect formula (if I did I would be rolling in game developer dough right now), but what happened in FFXIII was a classic example on how to do it wrong.

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Originally Posted by Shin Gouken

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Originally Posted by Elpizo

Lessee... He and his motehr got forced on a train to certain death just for being there, his mother got killed, he's branded a l'Cie, all of the world wants to kill him, he can't go home anymore, everybody hates him just for existing, he has a focus to destroy the world he's lived in all his life, he doesn't even see himself as human anymore...

Nope, Hope has no reason to complain at all. That was sarcasm, by the way.

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Yeah, but his whinging is focused on snow.

It would seem to me that his hatred for snow is a poor attempt add friction between two characters which is far too obvious and ultimatley only ends up defining hopes character.

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More like he blames Snow because from his particular vantage point, it might've looked like Snow let Nora go on purpose.

Either that . . . or he just wouldn't accept that it was an accident.

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Originally Posted by VeloZer0

There is a bunch of Cloud hate out there too. I'm going to bet the same people for the most part like and dislike them both.

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Actually, I never really cared for Cloud, as a character, at all. Lightening, on the other hand, is a far better character.

BTW I want to collect/interact with the sheeps more. :(

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Originally Posted by VeloZer0

what happened in FFXIII was a classic example on how to do it wrong.

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I wonder if SE (Square) has really changed their style. For example, why was VII acclaimed for its story bits, but XIII gets trashed for the same thing? Does it have to do with interactivity, or maybe the fact that while VII is story-driven, it's still not quite cinematic and hands-off? Or is it? Or maybe it's just a case of SE using the same tricks its been using since 1997. Story-driven games worked then (if you agree that they worked, that is) because they showed that games could provide intrigue past the pure mechanics. But now? Cut-scenes are completely old hat and really should have been a stepping-stone towards new styles of game storytelling - that is, a means to an end rather than an end in itself.

I think one of the disappointing things is that despite the advances in technology, we're not seeing a departure from the formula. Budgets are bigger and graphics better, so certainly we're getting more, and better-looking cinematics than ever before, but it makes one seriously wonder, "Is this all there is?"

One of the things I pondered roaming about the Archelyte Steppe:

Games nowadays really have no excuse to not include more dynamic party interaction that reflects the player's actions during gameplay.

Why are we not seeing, say, party members complaining about wandering Pulse for five hours hunting Marks in Chapter 11 when we could have already been at Oerba? Why are so few gameplay tips worked into the party commentary? When we're exploring, why aren't the characters debating which way to go? Why don't they make comments over loot? Why are they not carrying on discussions about, say, how gunblades or elemental magic work as they explore?

Even the very few bits of commentary we got from party members as we walked around the game world were often more clever and immersive than the cinematics. Furthermore, they prove that we have reached the point where, technologically, spoken party interactions can be incorporated directly into the gameplay. I'd have traded half the man-hours spent on the cinematics in FXIII for more of that style of interaction.

I really like the battle system in FFXIII. I think it is a lot of fun changing Paradigms to suit what you need your party to do. At first I felt pathetic using the 'Auto-Chain' over and over again but then I realised it's significantly more efficient overall than choosing individual attacks like in previous FF's. I also love the fact that you can see an enemy in front of you before you fight it.

I dislike the linearity of the game. I miss having an airship and visiting different towns, raiding people's houses, stealing their treasure and undergarments etc ;) This game really seems like it's all about running around fighting the whole time.

As for characters, I really like some of them and I really dislike some of them. They are in no way as interesting as the ones in FFVII (my fav FF). I do see a resemblance between Cloud and Lighting. I wish there was some kind of love triangle/action going on! Of course there's Snow and Serah, but I just keep hoping that because Serah isn't around, Lightning and Snow get it on haha :D

Storywise, I think the plot so far is pretty average and typical of an FF.

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I wish there was some kind of love triangle/action going on!

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Oh good lord no.