>>> I was listening this game`s soundtrack and I didnt find the classic Final Fantasy victory fanfare.
Im fearing for the worst, if they really took away the classic victory fanfare this game is dead for me..:luca:
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>>> I was listening this game`s soundtrack and I didnt find the classic Final Fantasy victory fanfare.
Im fearing for the worst, if they really took away the classic victory fanfare this game is dead for me..:luca:
Just think of it as a non-FF game and you should appreciate the whole thing a lot more. ;)
But really, I do miss the FF fanfare. At the same time, I can understand that it probably wouldn't have fit into the music style for the game in general... not that I was overly impressed with the music style in general, admittedly. I think in the voice acting era, music has taken a massive back seat.
It certainly doesn't ruin the game on any level, but it is a bit of nostalgic music that you always enjoy hearing. Not having it was a bit of a shame.
>>> Damn, Squarenix went too far this time..
The victory fanfare fitted perfectly in FFX, there are no excuses for this..:luca:
You know what music I missed the most, though? The boss music from FFVII. I loved that. I was hoping a version of it would feature somewhere, but alas, no.
Yeah I was wondering if it was near the end or something since I haven't beat it yet but it's gone altogether? Now that's sad, the Fanfare is likthe best FF thing ever behind chocobos and moogles :(
>>> Now that i think of it, I dont remember listening the main FF theme or the Prelude theme in this OST either.. WTF?.:luca:
Which ones are they? As in, when are they played in other FF's? =x I should probably brush up on this stuff...
>>> FF Main theme
FF Prelude theme..:luca:
My guess is that the composer chose not to cause all those tracks are from Nobuo. XII had all of them but I think part of the reason is because Nobuo did help a little with OST and also its obvious the team was filled with long time fans.
Some of the music does sound familiar... I wonder if a few tracks are remixes of themes from X and X-2. :confused:
There are two Chocobo themes on the soundtrack: Disc 3 Track 10 and Disc 4 Track 4. Otherwise, there are no references to Uematsu's work.
The only piece of music I really miss in the Victory Fanfare. It would have fit fine.
Fortunately, being as I am, I hear it in my head anyway. I usually am humming it to myself and getting weird looks from anyone passing through the living room.
I just heard the track; it was nothing compared to all the previous fanfares.
As long as you resort to violence to solve your problems no one is victorious.
The new one is still very similar, though. The melody goes in the same directions. It's what I would have imagined as Hamauzu's take on it.
>>> My guess is that the composer chose to break with a 20+ years tradition and no one at Squarenix give a flying smurf..:luca:Quote:
Originally Posted by Wolf Kanno
The composer may retain copyrights instead of the producing company. Which would mean paying rights and royalties for using them. If Nobuo was not involved, then SE may not have the right to use his music.
What really there has to be a victory fanfare in the game guys, y'all can't trick me, even XII had it.
Actually, SE does own the rights to all of Nobuo's music but they allow him to use the music he made freely for his own stuff (Black Mages). Its one of those odd copyright agreements that actually worked out really well for everyone involved.Quote:
Originally Posted by Ontibile
Having the Chocobo theme pretty much kills my theory. It is odd that Fanfare is missing. I have not heard a variation of Prelude or Final Fantasy Main theme either but then again, I haven't finished the game either so it my be forth coming. Its really odd Fanfare is missing cause they have a perfect place for it since the game does have a victory screen and everything.
The lack of this short fanfare doesn't bother me at all, and I think refusing to play this game just because of this is just as superficial as for example not liking a game because it's not as pretty as "X other game".
FF12 had the victory fanfare and to be honest, I thought it sounded like crap, and didn't fit in the game at all. It would have been better off without it.
The are no traditional Final Fantasy themes in the game except for two versions of the Chocobo theme. There is a prelude theme, but it's completely different. There is a victory fanfare, but of course, it's completely different (Actually, it's more like a "chime" than a "fanfare"). The "main" Final Fantasy theme is absent, too. Sakimoto did his own thing with the score in Twelve and still managed to at least keep the staples.
Having said that, I really only miss it for nostalgia's sake. It kind of is like Star Wars without the Star Wars theme, but the music overall is still quite good. It was clearly intended to serve the story more than something you sit and hum, but that goes with the more movie-like, cinematic nature of this particular game.
If you are just going to get rid of franchise staples and traditions then the name 'Final Fantasy' becomes nothing more than a title to move copies of the game.
The victory fanfare to me sounds like a remix of the X-2 Fanfare.. which was a remix of the original fanfare... so it's still really the original just remixed twice same origin nonetheless.Quote:
Originally Posted by Wolf Kanno
If you change the music of a game and change the names of the spells and change the appearance of an animal you ride, then pretty much all of the FF's are just titles to move copies of the game. I thought that was common knowledge. A massive amount of JRPG's could be renamed Final Fantasy [Number] with minor tweaking. Having said that, there will always be some games that differ from the rest. Moogles and Chocobos did not exist in the original game. Does that mean that Moogles and Chocobos are not FF things? No, of course not. Likewise, if a common tune is removed for a single game (in this case, FFXIII) I can't imagine it would be the end of the world. Times change.Quote:
Originally Posted by VeloZer0
I thought random battles were a staple of FF games but so many people said "no, I'm so glad they're gone" that I was pretty surprised. I would consider things like random battles and an ATB battle system to be much more of the FF core. The experience system was done away with in favour of spheres in FFX. White Mage, Black Mage, Fighter - things that no longer existed in FFVII. What makes Final Fantasy 'Final Fantasy'? The makers. Nothing else.
EDIT: Even Cid ain't in FFI.
The fanfare wouldn't have fit in at all, I think it's better without it. It's quite petty of you to boycott a game for that reason alone. Are you sure you're not searching for reasons to dislike this game? Keep digging, I'm sure you'll find 'em.
I just miss the fanfare/theme, I don't think it makes the game significantly worse.
The design team probably looks absolutely nothing like the one that worked on the original FF. If you consider FF to be a legacy series (something that will go on for generations, with new teams picking up after old ones) then the only thing that ties it together is the continuity of stuff like chocobos, common musical elements, ect...Quote:
What makes Final Fantasy 'Final Fantasy'? The makers. Nothing else.
And yes, some stuff has been added after the series progresses. As a matter of fact, I don't have any objection to new traditions being established as of now. What I do have a problem is that the old traditions (the only things that really mark a game as a 'final fantasy') are seen as things to be put in out of convenience. If that is the logic then they should make the game the best they can, and decide after if they should call it an FF title.
When I play a numbered FF title I like to feel like I am playing the thirteenth installment in the franchise, not some JRPG they decided to slap the FF label on to sell more copies.
That wasn't very coherent except the last sentence, so I'll try to do better after you rip it apart.
>>> Is totally the opposite, Im a die hard FF fan and Im really trying to find reasons to like this game, but SE is really making things hard this time..:luca:Quote:
Originally Posted by Lightening
>>> My thoughts exactly..:luca:Quote:
Originally Posted by VeloZer0
When I say "The makers" I mean the company, not the individuals.Quote:
Originally Posted by VeloZer0
In all honesty, I can't for the life of me imagine how you would consider FFXII to be a Final Fantasy game. I imagine that fans of FFI through FFVI would have been pretty stunned when they found out that anyone can use white magic from the start of the game through to the end of it in FFVII. Old traditions may not be kept in every game. In every major Final Fantasy since the very beginning, things have been thrown out and things have been thrown in.
There are a buttload of previous FF's, FFXI and FFXII being "the big one" of note to me, that were far less "feeling like Final Fantasy" than FFXIII was to me. I still feel like it's a Final Fantasy game for all of the above despite that, though. There is more to a game than a victory tune. A massive amount. I like to know that I can cast Fira and Firaga. I like to know that I can ride a chocobo. I like to know that at some point, there will be a large round enemy ready to self destruct in my face. I like to know that I will enter battles at random when walking over certain areas. I like to know that when I do enter a battle, that it will be in ATB style. I like traversable world maps. I like the victory fanfare used in most of the FF's, too.
A large number of these things are not in every FF. But a lot of them are. So I consider each FF to be a variation, and I accept that composers will change as will the music. As Lightening also pointed out, the tune wouldn't have felt "in character" with the rest of the game. It doesn't mean it's not a Final Fantasy title, but it does mean that it's of a different style, a style that I personally welcomed as a movement away from that of X and XII, which I felt weren't up to scratch like this one is.
There is not, and probably never will be, any major common theme between all of the Final Fantasy games. FFI and FFVII were so far apart in style that it's insane. FFVII and FFXII likewise. Hell, even FFXII and FFXIII are so incredibly different from each other that I'd consider most RPG's in this world to be closer to one or the other than either of them are to each other. But they're both undoubtedly FF games.
Is it named to push copies? Yes. Absolutely. But you know that you're going to be dealing with a game that will have more than a few things in common with the rest of the game. They could call every FF game something different, but they don't. Likewise, a lot of other games out there that have "4" or "IV" after the title will have little to do with the original title in their series. Final Fantasy has never, ever been a series of games linked intrinsically to each other. Just a series of games made with a title that they know is going to allow it to sell well. Duh, of course that's the case.
>>> You dont get it, we know about all these little changes, but there is something that has not changed since the very first FF game, and thats the two main FF themes and the victory fanfare, this is Nobuo`s Legacy for the series (a big deal).. I didnt even care when Sakaguchi left SE, but messing with the classic FF music thats just going too far..:luca:
Given that it's Nobuo's legacy and Nobuo is the one not involved with this game whatsoever, I imagine a large amount of that is either out of respect for Nobuo, respect for the new composer or to do with the decision (by either Nobuo or SE, I don't know which) to have Nobuo focus on FFXIV instead of working on FFXIII.
Remember, you can't have one composer forever so it's only fair that whoever comes in has the chance to put their own mark on a massive piece of gaming history. Also, whilst we might not all like the move away from Nobuo in this game, I know at least one person who updated their journal recently (not knowing that the composer had changed) saying that he loves the music and that SE finally got it right. So I guess opinion will always vary. :p
EDIT: Random battles, job systems, traversable world maps and the ATB battle system are all also things that, until various FF games came out, were "not changed since the very first FF game". So why not pick those up as the ones which made the jump away from FF? Why target this game? Is it because, well, you just don't like the game so therefore it must be this game which has made the difference enough for it to matter to you? In that case, I think FFX was the least FF like because I liked it least of the FF's I've played. :p I'm sure they did something in that one for the first time, and whatever it is, I blame that as moving too far away from the FF mainstream series. Hmph! ;)
A few things I'm going to throw out before I start (as much fun as it is to debate when we are both on opposite pages :))
- This has now gone way beyond my feelings on the fanfare. Black marking a game because one simple piece of music is missing is stupid. It is still disappointing that they didn't have it, but I'm talking generalities about game design at this point.
- "I can't for the life of me imagine how you would consider FFXII to be a Final Fantasy game." I thought FFXII (and to a lesser extent FFX) blew. This isn't the place to go into details, but I hope this explains a lot of things you brought up.
Fire,Fire2,Fire3!!!! It displeased me when they made that change, but it became a new tradition. I don't mean to say they can't change traditions as the series progresses; however I don't feel they should just be picking and choosing which ones to follow. If (more topically) they want to slightly tweak the victory fanfare every game and after a few entries it is completely different that seems perfectly appropriate.Quote:
I like to know that I can cast Fira and Firaga.
As a consumer I bought the game because it had FFXIII on the front. Had it not I probably would have waited a little while after release, or possibly not gotten it at all. The people at SE know this, so I appreciate it when they make the game remind me of other titles in the series. Labeling it an FF made me more likely to buy it regardless of the quality, I like reciprocation in the form of being reminded of other games will make me more likely to enjoy it regardless of the quality.
Haha, I was waiting for someone to mention Fire2-3. ;) Again, you are happy for that to change, but not other bits. There are far more dramatic changes one can make than a victory fanfare and that's why I don't get the big deal. I can understand people being upset about poor gameplay, poor characters, poor story, etc. But when people say "it's a different victory fanfare and this makes it no longer an FF" then my mind gets thrown a bit.
I still think it's predominantly do to with Nobuo not doing this one. I don't know for certain who has the tune copyright but it could well be that either the old or the new composer made a request for it to be different so that they can say "this is my work, nobody else does it as it's something I feel is tied to myself rather than the FF series". I'm sure they did think it over but there is more than one party to consider and I imagine that when the new composer was finally told he can have the entire game to himself, he would have been pretty annoyed if he was told that all the music that isn't going to be talked over is not allowed to be his own work. The lead composer should always be the one who created the "lead music" - I'm talking more theme music and intro music here than fanfare, but I imagine fanfare could be seen in a similar way.
>>> Since FFX different composers have put their own mark in the FF games and I have never complained before.. Im just asking (and I guess most of the loyal ff fans too) for victory fanfare and the 2 main FF themes, thats all..:luca:
They might have put their own mark on it, but Nobuo was still involved. This is the first where he is not.
>>> Thats right, now SE doesnt give a :bou::bou::bou::bou: about their FF fans..:luca:
Because Nobuo isn't involved? It was his choice, I understand. Blame him. Obviously he doesn't give a :bou::bou::bou::bou: about his fans. :p
>>> You mean FF fans, I will always be a fan of Nobuo`s music despite he works for the FF titles or not..:luca:Quote:
Originally Posted by Loony BoB
And I really wonder if it was really his decision..
"Although the game's main theme was originally announced to be composed by Nobuo Uematsu, Hamauzu was assigned to it after Uematsu was selected as the composer for Final Fantasy XIV, making XIII the first entry in the numbered Final Fantasy series without Uematsu involved."
Basically he gave up doing a main theme in favour of being numero uno when it comes to an entire online game. I'd say it was a pretty easy call for him/SE.
>>> And a big mistake too..:luca:Quote:
Originally Posted by Loony BoB
are you serious? the "ff victory fanfare" is annoying and irrelevant to the quality of any of the games. why would anyone want to listen to it on a soundtrack? it is bad enough to have to hear it after every random battle.
>>> Yeah, its so irrelevant that we kept hearing it until FFXII and for 20 years :roll2..:luca:
I have never in my life thought while playing any game, "gee, this fanfare at the end of each battle contributes to my enjoyment." overworld music is important. dungeon music is important. battle music is important. boss music is important. main theme music is important. victory fanfare, not so much.
I was not happy with the change from Fire2 to Fira, but my point was that it became a new tradition so I can deal with it an move on. If they wanted to insert a new fanfare theme and go with it for future installments I probably wouldn't like it, but I think it is line with the treatment the series deserves.
Because we have lots of other threads to complain about all of those :DQuote:
Originally Posted by Loony BoB
I've been trying to say that it is the victory fanfare in concert with a bunch of other factors that make it not feel like a FF title.
Interesting, I have never thought of that angle before.Quote:
Originally Posted by Loony BoB
If you were asked to compose the music for FF## you would probably be way more excited than for RPGx. That is because FF has a name and history behind it. If on the same token you feel above paying homage to that name and history you are a selfish douche bag. Of course I feel most creative types are predisposed to that anyways.
The traditional fanfare is far too slow for the fast-paced feel of the game and battles, at least that's what I imagine their reasoning to be. Hence this new cut-down but similar arrangement.
I was hoping for/expecting it to be used somewhere though. "Boss battle! Maybe now?".... nope. "How about when I complete a mission?"... nope. "Maybe a minigame then?"... what minigame? Etc. Oh well /mourn
It's understandable... I'm starting to get the distinct impression (or 'get the hint' perhaps) that S-E are trying to shake off the expectations of certain 'traditional' elements in FF to give them more freedom, and have been doing for the past couple of games at least. They probably got tired of having to do things in particular ways because it "has to have" airship navigation, summons, etc. I bet we'll even see one without chocobos soon (FF8 came close to that already).
Me, I want more of the same. But as they've explicitly stated, they're trying to attract more new blood rather than catering to the existing audience all the time.
The thing that irks me the most about this (which I imagine is the closest thing we can deduce to reality without working at SE) is that 'they' have the attitude that you can change the series traditions to stuff that makes it more relivant to the game as an individual entity. But if you are doing that, why is the title of limits? Final Fantasy Thirteen? What could have less to do with the game? If they truly did value this creative integrity that makes them not have to pay homage in game, shouldn't they ditch the archaic title that has no relevancy to the game and have one that is inspired and fits into the game?Quote:
It's understandable... I'm starting to get the distinct impression (or 'get the hint' perhaps) that S-E are trying to shake off the expectations of certain 'traditional' elements in FF to give them more freedom, and have been doing for the past couple of games at least. They probably got tired of having to do things in particular ways because it "has to have" airship navigation, summons, etc. I bet we'll even see one without chocobos soon (FF8 came close to that already).
I know the reason the title will change is because FFXIII will move more copies than anything else you could name it. Having companies put profits first isn't anything new to me, it is what they are supposed to do. I just dislike having my nose rubbed in it.
There were chocobos, the enemies were traditional FF enemies, the spells were traditional FF spells, the battle system was a traditional FF battle system, the job roles, although named differently, were traditional FF job roles, the chocobo music was there, there were references to every FF thing under the sun, there were crystals (which can be considered traditional FF things). In all honesty, some of the things I missed the most in a traditional sense were more simple than most might consider: Where was Ifrit? :p
I feel that they could have used the fanfare just as easily, not really sure why they took it out. A remix of the fanfare to suit the theme or whatever would have sufficed, or used it in a different way like XI did it when you level up.
The design team for Final Fantasy VI was largely different from the previous five. Does that make it less of a "Final Fantasy"? I'm sure most people will tell you "no." However, the other guy's right, "Final Fantasy" is nothing more than a title to move product. Why do you think there are 8,000 different spin-offs?Quote:
Originally Posted by VeloZer0
Keep in mind, even if it doesn't work out at all times, change is good. If you want to play Final Fantasy VI or Final Fantasy VII, those games exist already. Final Fantasy XII and/or XIII are their own games.
The post you quoted is so far back it doesn't show up under the text input field anymore, so I'm mostly guessing as to the exact wording of the rest of the post.
My point wasn't that it has to be the same people. In a long running franchise it is essential to cycle through talent to ensure the passion stays in the series, and to prevent burn out. However, with the knowledge that the staff will be in constant flux from one installment to the next it is important to ensure that the name 'Final Fantasy' doesn't become a title with no significance beyond the desire to move boxes.