On towns and NPCs (Spoilers Within)

One of my biggest gripes about people complaining this game is the lack of NPCs and "towns". While I understand that some people get their kicks out the NPCs and look for different things when enjoying games, it seems that people are too busy complaining about the lack of NPCs and "towns" to actually think about why it is so (besides being S-E is lazy/doesn't care about us/etc...).

In most FFs your band of heros are rather unnoticeable to the public or well received. Yuna et al are trying to defeat Sin, so why wouldn't the people of Spira love her? (FFX). AVALANCHE is not really that noticeable as in you can tell who is a member of AVALANCHE just by looking at them. Plus once outside of Midgar it doesn't really matter to the general public anymore that Barret, Cloud and Tifa were part of AVALANCHE (FFVII). The Light Warriors are trying to save the world. Really, are they gonna get hate from the people? (FFI). A princess in hiding is pretty inconspicuous especially travelling in neutral territory, even then it is not like she goes screaming who she is in enemy's territories either (FFXII).

I could think of more too, but my point is that for the most part the cast of protagonists are usually well received by the public (like Yuna), blend in with the rest of the crowd, or so far away from their hometown that it is irrelevant. Thus NPCs make sense. A large percent of NPCs are 2-3 line flat characters that are of no huge consequence in so far as plot goes. They usually hint to the next place to go, give random information on the back-story or just nonsensical. They, to some, also help with immersion.

Now, FFXIII's band of heros is far different from your usual protagonists in the series. They are loathes by the general populace. Unlike the PSOne era where world maps were there and you can travel far, far away from your hometown to places where no one knows who you are, the cast of FFXIII can't. For 12/13 chapters you are stuck on Cocoon. The people of Cocoon for centuries were told that Pulse l'Cie are evil, vile creatures that will destroy Cocoon. To say that Pulse l'Cie are loathed is the public is not an over-statement. For the most part, your whole party is ostracized from every single person in Cocoon. Cocoon is not small by any means. I'd wager it is about the size of a country with a similar population; it'd make Midgar look small. Also, due to the mark left by the fal'Cie it becomes pretty obvious that someone is a l'Cie. I mean you can hide it (like Lightening, Serah and Vanille can) but for the most part it keeps growing bigger to the point where it becomes noticeable (Like Sahz's and Hope's that were mostly hidden at first). So it becomes obvious fast who is a l'Cie.

So, with the exception of the few cases where there were some, how would more NPCs even make sense in Cocoon? Everyone hates you. Those that don't are either family or fal'Cie/fal'Cie pawns. Within the world of Cocoon it makes sense that there are not really many NPCs. Unless you've been blind the whole game, they make it clear that the general public shares very little love for you even if you are trying to save their asses.

As for Gran Pulse, it seems that they decided to kill off all the humans. I mean, it would have been interesting where there human life on Gran Pulse and see how they would take to the gang, but there wasn't.

So the lack of NPCs seems more symptomatic of something else: a focus on characterization. It really changes a group dynamic when they are truly the only people they have. That because they are all pariahs they only have themselves left. The lack of NPCs in Gran Pulse serves to underscore this with Vanille and Fang and plays a role in their relationship. Whether or not you like the characters is a different issue.

As for towns, there are towns. Just, once again, everyone hates you (or they are dead).

So yeah, while I get that people miss what they felt are staples of the series, I feel that they are too focused on complaining about their absence to actually think about it and what it means. Yes, there are little to few NPCs but the game tells you why (without 4th walling that is). It also seems to do with characterization too. That these people they are bound to by being l'Cie, with few exceptions, are all that they have.

[/rant]

No, this thread is not about the linearity of the game or whether or not you like the characters. It is about the lack of NPCs and what it means.

Don't defend the lack of an essential part of an RPG just because the game has "Final Fantasy" on the cover. It just sounds desperate.

The developers have already stated why. It was too hard to do towns and minigames in HD. That is a factual statement they made.

Final Fantasy XIII producers: Traditional RPG towns are tough to do in HD

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In a recent interview with Ultimania, they say that the limit isn't the HD technology, it's the amount of artisanship. "Considering the amount of work to make graphics that deserve HD, it is hard to make towns in the conventional style," said Toriyama. FFVII's graphics were beautiful at the time, but when you consider that we all played them on a 4:3 TV SD screen rather than the 1080p HD behemoths we're all playing games on today, you realize that it's a lot more work for artists to put in to make the game look as epic as Final Fantasy should. That's one reason why FFXIII doesn't have conventional RPG towns.

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Kitase agrees, saying that "it is very hard to make games on PlayStation 3 in the same style the games in that era had. Making graphics will take enormous time." So score one for standard definition and the limits of the old pre-HD consoles. Note that neither producer says it's impossible, just a lot of work. So maybe some enterprising young developer will come along and make a solid, HD JRPG in the old-school fashion.

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Please will we get away from defending this game by refusing to accept what the developers are telling us are the reasons. Graphics are now coming first to gameplay.

On NPC, saying that the plot is the reason is a MONUMENTAL cop out.

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Originally Posted by kotora

Don't defend the lack of an essential part of an RPG just because the game has "Final Fantasy" on the cover. It just sounds desperate.

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Wow, a resounding example of what I am talking about. Thank you.

FFXIII is not in my top 3 FF games and I have FF games that I haven't enjoyed. So yeah...wrong on that account.

Also, think you might of missed the part when the creators said they wanted to break the mold of the genre.

I am not saying you have to like, I am saying that within the game it makes sense. I'm trying to be reasonable and see it from a different perspective. I'm sorry if I am not blinded to one side or another. :p

EDIT: Conventional towns, not no towns at all. Difference.

It is not a cop-out. Give me a nice argument why it is a cop-out. Because you don't like it? Not a reason. Tell me how it doesn't make sense given the world of FFXIII?

It seems you missed the part where they tell you plainly why the game is missing minigames and towns of the traditional fashion. They find it too hard to do in HD graphics and are not willing to downgrade graphics in order to do it. Any argument you make which doesn't accept that isn't accepting the truth.

I prefer HD graphics over a crappy card game and maybe some skipping rope.

It seems you missed the part where you posted while I was posting my reply. Read my edit.

Also, the fact that it was too much work to make full scale conventional towns does not detract from my argument that lack of NPCs make sense (in game). Actually, it fits perfectly well together.

They're not making fully flushed out towns because it will take too much work (for a game they have been working on for years already), but if they are not gonna have fully flushed out towns, at least let's make it make sense in the game too, which they do.

It's just the devs being lazy because they could pull it off in about every other rpg on the current consoles.

the claims they are too hard/difficult for an organization like Square smacks of either laziness or incompetence..as was pointed out they've been working on it for years and should have a found a way to make it all work.
So they release what seems to me to be an incomplete game.:mad:

and yes I feel it deserves such criticism although I haven't played it yet.

:p

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Originally Posted by The Summoner of Leviathan

It is not a cop-out. Give me a nice argument why it is a cop-out. Because you don't like it? Not a reason. Tell me how it doesn't make sense given the world of FFXIII?

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It is quite simple:

a. The devlopers are telling you they found it "too difficult" to place decent towns in the game. As in fully explorable with shops and the like so they dropped the idea. This is the reason we don't have towns. They have just told you. They are the designers. Please stop arguing with them.

b. The reason NPC suffered is a direct result of not having traditional towns. The fact NPC are in it should tell you something. Although they are fewer in number and non interactive. Again as a result of not having traditional towns again as a result of what the devlopers have stated as their reasons.

You are trying to suggest that there aren't NPC because the plot wouldn't allow for it. In VII you talked to palmer in Cid's house, you talked to Shin-Ra Soldiers even though you were part of Avalanche to name 2 examples.

NPC are not in the game because the developers did not use traditional RPG elements because they were more concerned with graphics. This is not an opinion.

The point is not why, I know why. I've read the articles before. My point is that it works if you think about the setting, the plot. That it does serve a purpose and doesn't mean if it is a bad thing, even if you might not like it.

EDIT: There was no way for them to know you were in Avalanche, unless they have psychic powers or caught you in the act (which usually results in a battle). l'Cie have marks/brands that are quite obvious, especially in the case of Snow. Also, the brands grow becoming even more apparent. Something you'd know if you played the games.

Again, not why. Talking function. :/

Yeah, I could write the same story about any other FF game and it would still sound like it made sense.

I am pretty sure in real life you wouldnt go talking to Shinra or Palmer.... the point is it i a game and the game allowed the NPC to often state their opinions or sometimes interact with you without needing to be ultra conservative on the plot.

In same way to suggest NPC in XIII couldn't be made to do the same is just bogus.

You must've missed the scene where Hope tries to give a little girl her teddy bear and she sees that he's a l'Cie and everyone freaks on him and Snow and starts to attack them. Yes, because for them to stand still or just pace around muttering to themselves or to talk to you would make sense in such an environment. :p

The game makes it quite clear that no one outside fal'Cie, The Calvary and Hope's Dad is going to talk to you if they know you are l'Cie. The ones that do appear before you become l'Cie, don't know you are l'Cie or too worried about almost dying to care or notice.

Again, most of the time when you talked to Shinra soldies, they didn't know who are. If they knew you were a terrorist they'd fight you.

again, you are missing the point. In all other FF games, you can talk to NPC and it isn't taken ultra serious, most of the time it is taken as just stating what the NPC is thinking and that adds to the world. To suggest it couldn't be done on the grounds of plot is bogus...what more can I say? It is just a bogus statement.

seiferalmasy didn't actually play the game, he admitted it.

doesn't mean you can't or shouldn't be able to complain about what may appear to be obvious flaws in the game.
I haven't played it either.
The difference is I don't believe I can call it a "bad or "terrible" game imo without playing it.

If I ever get to play it then I will issue my own opinion about the game in its entirety.

I feel the game should have had towns and npc interaction and like I said laziness or incomptence were the reasons.
I would bet that Square will have "fixed" the problem by the time FFXV roles around and will of course claim credit for a job well done.
:p

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Originally Posted by The Summoner of Leviathan

Also, think you might of missed the part when

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Originally Posted by seiferalmasy2

It seems you missed the part where

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Originally Posted by The Summoner of Leviathan

It seems you missed the part where

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Originally Posted by The Summoner of Leviathan

You must've missed the scene where

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Originally Posted by seiferalmasy2

again, you are missing the point.

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I think you missed the part where he pointed out the thing he pointed out that you missed while you were all busy pointing out that you thought he missed that one part.

Summoner, I'm sorry, but you really are just making excuses. I know for sure if I was a fugitive from Baron in FFIV, say, I wouldn't be waltzing around the city of Baron and walking up to the front door of the castle, but that's an acceptable and necessary suspension of disbelief to relieve a bit of the stress that the narrative's built up.

In short: BAD design flaw, "justified" by the story or not

http://www.threadbombing.com/data/media/2/pug_face.gif

the dog is sad

I think that the lack of conventional towns and NPCs in FFXIII hurt the overall experience,

HOWEVER

I don't think that it was a completely bad idea for SE to give it a try. It was an attempt at a new way to tell a story, something different from the bread and butter RPG method. The lynch pin of the whole 'FFXIII concept' was to create a world where you felt isolated. Having your characters actually be isolated was a bold step to this end.

Though I don't feel the concept worked in practice at all, I do respect SE for trying it.

EDIT: The dog looks more happy than sad.

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Originally Posted by kotora

It's just the devs being lazy because they could pull it off in about every other rpg on the current consoles.

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It's called "priorities".

Nothing about FFXIII's development was lazy. Flawed, and costly, yes, but lazy? Not even close.

Well the point he was making was that the developers stated they couldn't do certain things (in the 5 years they had), because HD would be too hard with those elements...and he stated that it HAS been done on other games this generation.

If that is true then something is wrong...

I can see TSoL's point and agree with it. It made me feel like a fugitive rather than just being one in "the story" alone. I genuinely felt like a fugitive throughout much of the game. Having said that, it would have been nice that, upon reaching Pulse, we met an NPC or two, although one can argue that would be misleading also given that Pulse is supposed to be devoid of humanity. Maybe it would have been neat to at least be able to play a few games in the City of Dreams. That seemed like the ideal point in the story to do such a thing. However, they would probably have been pretty crappy games a la Wonder Square.

The problem is that your party actually does get to visit a town and go unnoticed, Nautilus. I think what makes the whole "fugitive" element not work is that its not until Chapter 7-9 that the identities of the l'Cie are given to the public in a transmission. Your party could easily hide their tattoos (especially Lightning since hers seems to be in a sensitive area) and there are even scenes later in the game where Snow goes a bit unnoticed til he starts showing off and makes his tattoo noticeable.

Even the scene with Hope giving the girl her Carbuncle doll back, the towns folk only knew they were l'Cie cause Snow purposely told them and started a ruckus to get the people to riot earlier in that chapter. I really feel the game should have tried to be more forward with the player about explaining that everyone in Cocoon knew their identities. The idea they couldn't hide that fact gets crushed in Chapter 8 when Sazh and Vanille waltz into Nautilus like they didn't have a care in the world.

Ultimately, I think the lack of towns and NPCs definetly hurt the title. It does create a sense of isolation but at the same time it hurts the players ability to have empathy for Cocoon and the events going on. When your party starts to talk about "Let's save Cocoon" I keep asking why? I only got to see the ugly side of Cocoon and personally I feel the place does deserve to be destroyed. I had no emotional attachment to the world, and I blame this on the fact that I never really got a chance to see the softer side of Cocoon. Your party has but the player never gets to experience it and I feel it hurts the story overall.

I can understand what you are getting at that the lack of proper towns and NPC's was planned for story purposes, but I definetly have to say after playing the game, it was a very flawed and not well implemented idea.

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Originally Posted by Wolf Kanno

(especially Lightning since hers seems to be in a sensitive area)

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Haha, one of the first females in the franchise to have that area actually covered up, and Anima was kind enough to put it there for her. :jess:

i wasn't bothered with the doing away of conventional towns in this game. i almost never even thought of it once. the fact is, there are people to talk to, saying there isn't is just ignorant. i mean, going into someone's house you don't know, harassing them for information and then taking their belongings never made sense. and it most certainly wouldn't make sense given the characters situation in FFXIII. it wasn't something i took for granted in other FFs, and it's not something i criticize this one for lacking. as for minigames, there are a few, and to say there are none also would be ignorant. but fortunately, minigames were never something i was concerned with in other FFs or rpgs either. Blitzball? only played what the story forced me to. Gold Saucer? only to get cloud's ultimate weapon. i don't think ive ever even rode the shooting coaster, and i couldn't care less. i don't look for these things in a game to justify me playing it or thinking that it's a quality experience. obviously there are people who do look solely for that sort of thing, and that's fine. to each his own. what the developer's did wasn't lazy - they trimmed away the fat and presented a streamlined and enjoyable experience, slightly flawed as it may be. but almost every game has flaws - i have yet to play one that doesn't have one. whether you choose to enjoy the experience is up to you, but i for one am a fan.

this is the first HD final fantasy, and there were some things that had to be sacrificed in order to a)retain the overall quality of the project, b)make sense within the game's world and sutuation and c)release it sometime within this decade because we all would've whined more if they didn't. they're working on trying different things in VERSUS because the designers will have had more experience in working in this medium and with crystal tools. i mean, look at the significance in the change of graphics and features from FFVII to FFVIII! Astounding. it's about trial and error and learning to utilize the engine to the best of its abilities with each new game. so...i dont really know where im going with this, but ya either like this game or ya dont!

Well said, finaloblivion. I agree with you, the lack of towns and NPCs didn't bother me at all. A lot of the time, it was justified by the fact they were l'cie and everyone hated them, but even when it couldn't be justified (like at Nautilus), it's still a barely noticeable omission. I didn't really get that same sense of isolation that Kanno got, but maybe that's because I was super-immersed with the graphics (my PS3 is quite new to me) and that's how I got that element of emotional attachment with Cocoon.

In terms of it deviating from the FF-formula of the old days, it's barely feels like an FF title any more, but I was still able to enjoy the game on it's own terms.

Some people, myself included would prefer lower graphics with more substance and that is exactly all this arguement is about. If you liked the game without ton sof the things that made the series great, fine, but I would have preferred being given the choice and I will take that over graphics any day.

Graphics do not make a game. HD does not make a game. Dolby surround does not make a game.

In 10-20 years time, this game will stand and fall based on story and on gameplay because by then it will look primitive. And sorry, but this game is going to sink faster than a lead balloon.

but I do..for the most part.

I think Square made a conscious effort to correct what they felt were the deficiencies in FFXII..but went too far in the opposite direction.

While the technical limitations prevented them, or so they claim from adding towns and more areas...and they ignored npcs as being unimportant.

Of course FFXII didn't have enough cut scenes/fmv movies while it appears this game, from the discussion has too many.
Too linear for the most part and you can't even return to areas you previously visited.

Of course there are going to be folks who think this game is the best FF ever, just like there are folks, fewer it seems than there once were but still some it appears who believe FFXII is the best FF ever.

Shrugs..we have to accept they have a right to their opinions even when it doesn't make sense to some of us.It doesn't mean they are wrong, just their opinions are at variance with those others of us hold.

I hope we get some more info about Verses soon and I hope that Square makes it more of a complete game than FFXIII evidently is.
I hope they consult and work with someone to add /flesh out the game and make it more complete than FFXIII seems to be.;)

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Originally Posted by seiferalmasy2

If you liked the game without ton sof the things that made the series great, fine, but I would have preferred being given the choice and I will take that over graphics any day.

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For the record, I wasn't saying I wouldn't prefer that. I just think the game was fine.

Also, HD is here to stay. So it's inevitable that developers are going to have to spend more and more time working on the graphics. Graphics may not make the game, as you've said, but you need to them to look up-to-date enough so that it doesn't come across as ancient. I don't know how hard they're cracking the whip with the guys in charge of Versus, but I personally can't imagine it being a return to the FFs we all know and love since it's still on the latest gen consoles. It'll probably be much the same as XIII.

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Originally Posted by Mo-Nercy

it's still a barely noticeable omission. I didn't really get that same sense of isolation that Kanno got, but maybe that's because I was super-immersed with the graphics (my PS3 is quite new to me) and that's how I got that element of emotional attachment with Cocoon.

In terms of it deviating from the FF-formula of the old days, it's barely feels like an FF title any more, but I was still able to enjoy the game on it's own terms.

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also, agreed. while i agree that graphics do not make a game, i will say this much: never have i ever stopped everything i was doing in a game, put my finger on the camera stick and simply looked at my surroundings. to me, that is something special that drew me into my playing experience, and will stay with me for a very long time and will not be soon forgotten. because something that ive always expected from final fantasy is a gorgeous and revolutionary visual experience - oh no! i said that the main thing i expect is great graphics! while this is def not the only reason i enjoy this game, it's most certainly a great part of it. and as far as it feeling like FF, there are only a few things i had qualms with, and none of them were ever even mentioned in these forums...so hey, whatev. these are things like a lack of upgrades in potions, and that's it.

Graphics are important. Classic or not, Final Fantasy 7 does, and always will look pretty retarded.

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Originally Posted by zombiedude55

Graphics are important. Classic or not, Final Fantasy 7 does, and always will look pretty retarded.

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That is also incorrect as fan mods are improving the game and the "square arms" and poor models are mostly a thing of the past. Graphics can be updated and games stand or fall based on their substance, this is a fact.

Mario 3 is still brilliant to play, so is sonic 2, so is FF6-10. FF7 is still considered by many to be the greatest game, and FF6 to others. 12 and 13 can only dream of that kind of accolade no matter how good their graphics.

Graphics are the least important thing. I would rather play Breath of Fire 3 (a great game) 100 times than touch XIII. Pong is still fun to play and so is Galaga. I am not saying Graphics should deliberately be thrown away for the sake of it, I am saying getting a balance is most important and XIII utterly fails with it.

I really don't understand why Graphics are held in such high status for a game.

You can change substance as well, so what a stupid thing to say. :confused:

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Originally Posted by seiferalmasy2

I am not saying Graphics should deliberately be thrown away for the sake of it, I am saying getting a balance is most important and XIII utterly fails with it.

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I disagree with this part of your post. Of course, I may have experienced better gameplay than yourself as I have the game and enjoy playing it.

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I really don't understand why Graphics are held in such high status for a game.

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I do agree with this part, though. Having said that, I'm as guilty as anyone for not playing many old RPGs and instead playing new ones. Having said that, I've played a lot of FF games and I do put XIII up there with the better games. FFX arguably had better gameplay (despite the graphics still being alright) but I found the characters and story to be horrendous, particularly in the case of Tidus and Yuna. With that in mind, the game was already ruined for me because it felt like a chore to put up with the characters just to find out what was going to happen next in a story that, once I found the end of it, didn't really appeal to me too much (then again, many of the endings to FF games don't appeal to me much xD). You need to have decent gameplay (and I find that XIII's is decent) but also a decent set of characters and a decent story - and, of course, graphics should always be at least par for the age in which the game is released. I feel that XIII achieves a good count for all four areas, particularly the characters and graphics. X may have had good graphics and gameplay but the story and characters sucked. VII, meanwhile, achieved a great result in having all four be excellent for the time it was released. Can't beat it. ;) Basically, this gameplay may not be suited to you, but it is suited to some others, like myself. Would I have liked a bit more in the gameplay area? Maybe, but it was good enough to enjoy throughout.

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Originally Posted by zombiedude55

You can change substance as well, so what a stupid thing to say. :confused:

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Substance as in gameplay and things that appear in the game like Towns, interactive NPC, Minigames, all of which are mostly absent or severely lacking in XIII and for the stated reason that "it was too hard to do in HD"

So no, they didn't balance graphics vs gameplay at all, they went with graphics as the selling point and sadly it worked with a large proportion of audience (especially the non fanbase that they were catering to with the dumbed down mechanics). But in the future this game will be tossed on the same pile as 12, 13 and all these spin offs.

A game cannot survive by relying on graphics, future generations look back on a game and by then the graphics suck.

See, the only real problem I had with the lack of towns and all was the fact that NO RPG, not Final Fantasy XIII, VII, VI, or even my favorite, IX, can possibly hope to maintain the momentum of a storyline for 40+ hours. It's just not doable. So the only real solution to this is to lighten the tension so it doesn't drag after a while. Whether this is done by towns, NPCs, side-quests, exploration, mini-games, whatever, it's definitely a necessary part of an RPG experience.

I wont lie and say I didn't enjoy this game. I did, I had a LOT of fun with it... for a while. Then it just got so bogged down in all the tension and drama and everything that I really just wanted it to end. This is the first FF that I felt went on for too long since FFVIII, in which the sidequests never really appealed to me.

At least for me, the "Crash Bandicoot: The RPG" approach really hurt the game in the last quarter or so, when I really just stopped caring. The game refused to give you any reason to sympathize with anyone in Cocoon, the complete black-and-white morality is tedious and tiresome, and the narrative is not strong enough to carry the game. I repeat, NO narrative is strong enough to hold my attention for 40+ hours. You need MORE than that, and FFXIII fails to deliver.

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Originally Posted by arcanedude34

See, the only real problem I had with the lack of towns and all was the fact that NO RPG, not Final Fantasy XIII, VII, VI, or even my favorite, IX, can possibly hope to maintain the momentum of a storyline for 40+ hours. It's just not doable. So the only real solution to this is to lighten the tension so it doesn't drag after a while. Whether this is done by towns, NPCs, side-quests, exploration, mini-games, whatever, it's definitely a necessary part of an RPG experience.

I wont lie and say I didn't enjoy this game. I did, I had a LOT of fun with it... for a while. Then it just got so bogged down in all the tension and drama and everything that I really just wanted it to end. This is the first FF that I felt went on for too long since FFVIII, in which the sidequests never really appealed to me.

At least for me, the "Crash Bandicoot: The RPG" approach really hurt the game in the last quarter or so, when I really just stopped caring. The game refused to give you any reason to sympathize with anyone in Cocoon, the complete black-and-white morality is tedious and tiresome, and the narrative is not strong enough to carry the game. I repeat, NO narrative is strong enough to hold my attention for 40+ hours. You need MORE than that, and FFXIII fails to deliver.

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First that needs framing. Secondly, the whole reason we have minigames and towns and NPC in RPG"s is precisely for that reason. It is to a. give players a choice on how they proceed, b. maintain the illusion of the world you are in c. expand the story and d. break up the battles and tedious dungeon crawling.

When you try to "fix" a genre by removing things that made that genre popular you are going down the wrong street. And as you just said, when you do take away these things, the world becomes less real and thus the emotional impact of the story is severely weakened.

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Originally Posted by seiferalmasy2

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Originally Posted by arcanedude34

See, the only real problem I had with the lack of towns and all was the fact that NO RPG, not Final Fantasy XIII, VII, VI, or even my favorite, IX, can possibly hope to maintain the momentum of a storyline for 40+ hours. It's just not doable. So the only real solution to this is to lighten the tension so it doesn't drag after a while. Whether this is done by towns, NPCs, side-quests, exploration, mini-games, whatever, it's definitely a necessary part of an RPG experience.

I wont lie and say I didn't enjoy this game. I did, I had a LOT of fun with it... for a while. Then it just got so bogged down in all the tension and drama and everything that I really just wanted it to end. This is the first FF that I felt went on for too long since FFVIII, in which the sidequests never really appealed to me.

At least for me, the "Crash Bandicoot: The RPG" approach really hurt the game in the last quarter or so, when I really just stopped caring. The game refused to give you any reason to sympathize with anyone in Cocoon, the complete black-and-white morality is tedious and tiresome, and the narrative is not strong enough to carry the game. I repeat, NO narrative is strong enough to hold my attention for 40+ hours. You need MORE than that, and FFXIII fails to deliver.

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First that needs framing. Secondly, the whole reason we have minigames and towns and NPC in RPG"s is precisely for that reason. It is to a. give players a choice on how they proceed, b. maintain the illusion of the world you are in c. expand the story and d. break up the battles and tedious dungeon crawling.

When you try to "fix" a genre by removing things that made that genre popular you are going down the wrong street. And as you just said, when you do take away these things, the world becomes less real and thus the emotional impact of the story is severely weakened.

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That's pretty much my gripe with the game in a nutshell, yeah. But again, it was an enjoyable ride for the first 60~75% at least.

It worked in Cocoon when the characters were on the run and, with the exception of Nautilus, didn't have the time or inclination (or non survival instincts) to hang around towns.

However on Pulse it did feel like a wasted opportunity to me. The explanation they went with was seemingly that all the Pulse people were wiped out (for reasons that, unless I'm missing something, are never really explained) but to me that seems like writing to cover for the lack of ability to do towns - which they openly admitted.

I already liked this game, but it could've easily been one of the best if they hadn't basically given up after Oerba. There was plenty of opportunity for Pulse towns, NPCs, alternative ways of taking the story that would involve them all and make it more epic, maybe have the Cavalry out there lending you an airship so you can go around finding answers and training etc. Instead they created Pulse and created this absolutely stunning, beautiful landscape - but put so much effort into the visuals that they ran out of steam and had to finish the game half way across a bridge. I wonder where it would've led.

Apparently Versus will have things like towns and airship travel (steerable, no less!) as they've been able to use the same engine and save a lot of time. So there's some hope there. I'm not sure I like the look and sound of the "real world" or "darkest ever FF" aspects though - if I wanted to be depressed by the darkness of the real world and probably lots of nice people dying etc I'd go and watch the news.

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Originally Posted by zombiedude55

Graphics are important. Classic or not, Final Fantasy 7 does, and always will look pretty retarded.

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Um, I think you just contradicted yourself there. If graphics are so important, why is FF7 a "Classic", by your own admission, despite the pathetic graphics?

Answer: Because graphics aren't that important, and have nothing to do with whether a game is remembered as a classic years later. When it comes down to it, what gamers enjoy most about a game isn't the graphics. And if the graphics are what a gamer remembers the most when they look back on a game, they are unlikely to consider it as great game as one which is more solid in the areas that are more important, such as gameplay, story, and characters.

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Originally Posted by Cloudane

However on Pulse it did feel like a wasted opportunity to me. The explanation they went with was seemingly that all the Pulse people were wiped out (for reasons that, unless I'm missing something, are never really explained)

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They are explained. Basically, there were wars amongst the towns and the fal'Cie kept making humans into l'Cie to the point that there weren't enough humans left to survive - or at least, there weren't enough in the areas that we are shown, which basically only had one town around in the past anyway (Oerba), which in itself was small. So the population can't have been that big to begin with, at least not there, anyway.

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but to me that seems like writing to cover for the lack of ability to do towns - which they openly admitted.

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They admitted that "towns in the traditional sense" were not included because of their lack of time/ability, meaning that the likes of Palumpolum, Nautilus, etc. were not made into fully fledged towns. However from what I can see there were never going to be any towns on Pulse. I'm trying to imagine how the game would have played out if they completely rewrote the history and had people still alive on Pulse, but no matter how much I look at it there is always a flaw in that concept, so it wouldn't make sense for me. It would definitely be interesting, though... but yeah, back to what I was getting at: the only part they acknowledged was that "traditional towns" (ie shops/inns/etc) were not included for that reason. They never said that they removed any towns entirely for that reason. It's basically just them explaining why there are online shops instead of physically visitable shops/inns.

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I already liked this game, but it could've easily been one of the best if they hadn't basically given up after Oerba. There was plenty of opportunity for Pulse towns, NPCs, alternative ways of taking the story that would involve them all and make it more epic, maybe have the Cavalry out there lending you an airship so you can go around finding answers and training etc. Instead they created Pulse and created this absolutely stunning, beautiful landscape - but put so much effort into the visuals that they ran out of steam and had to finish the game half way across a bridge.

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I agree that there could have been more, but again, I'm not sure how it would have played out. It would be interesting, but at the same time I still feel that they did a great job in creating the atmosphere and carrying on the l'Cie/slave theme, showing that obviously living on Pulse isn't exactly the bees knees either. It makes you consider whether Cocoon was a better place or not - although obviously, the whole "we're going to kill you all" thing probably doesn't leave much attraction to staying. But yeah... the whole concept of why Cocoon was created and why so many people left Pulse is based upon the idea that Pulse was not hospitable. With the number of people that left Pulse for Cocoon, combined with the number of fal'Cie making l'Cie of people, combined with the number of monsters that would (by this point) have less humans around to keep them in check, combined with the fact that Cocoon fal'Cie were ripping parts of Gran Pulse's civilisation apart to rebuild Cocoon post-Ragnarok... well, it makes sense that over 500 years that a place initially low in population (judging by there only being one small town) would no longer have people in it.

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I wonder where it would've led.

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Another town. ;) Obviously! But unless we let SE spend another four years making the game, I don't think we'd have ever got far. It's all good, though: FFXIII Versus will let you traverse Gran Pulse, so we get the best of both worlds via the two games.

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Apparently Versus will have things like towns and airship travel (steerable, no less!) as they've been able to use the same engine and save a lot of time. So there's some hope there. I'm not sure I like the look and sound of the "real world" or "darkest ever FF" aspects though - if I wanted to be depressed by the darkness of the real world and probably lots of nice people dying etc I'd go and watch the news.

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Haha, yeah, I can understand that. And I hate watching the news as it is. We'll have to see how it goes... knowing FF, though, I can't see it being depressing, just "ooh, we have more serious brooding characters." Whee...

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Originally Posted by Skyblade

Because graphics aren't that important, and have nothing to do with whether a game is remembered as a classic years later. When it comes down to it, what gamers enjoy most about a game isn't the graphics. And if the graphics are what a gamer remembers the most when they look back on a game, they are unlikely to consider it as great game as one which is more solid in the areas that are more important, such as gameplay, story, and characters.

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I agree.

I don't dislike HD at all, but if they give up minigames/towns/... for it, well, I don't think it's worth it at all. I'd rather have another FF VII than another FF XIII. (Though don't get me wrong - I like FF13, but I did miss the possibility of doing different sidequests)

What bothers me about Versus is that it's going to have Sasuke from Naruto as a main character. If it was your typical film noir-detective dude, then it would've been fine by me and I'd even have some hopes for it.

Any hopes I might have had for anything by Square Enix ended with X-2, XII, XIII, Dirge and all the other money spinners lacking substance. I don't see why I should get my hopes up with a series that abandoned its roots back in 2005. (I am currently retranslating VII and loving it, creating a new character for VII and loving it, making a difficulty mod for VII and loving it and finally beating Dark Aeons/penance fairly in X and loving it)

versus will be just another exercise in graphics over gameplay and I just can't see it being any good, but to be fair, it will prob beat XIII if they give it a world map and towns etc..

I thought it was sensible and effective to have you barely spend any time in settlements and to not have much peace when you are there. You are far beyond mere fugitives; there is literally nothing else in the world which scares the general population more than what you are.

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Originally Posted by kotora

What bothers me about Versus is that it's going to have Sasuke from Naruto as a main character.

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Haha. I hope he has more of a personality. And I hope he doesn't have a Naruto chasing around after him refusing to admit that the guy's an asshole whose only likeable moment was when he nearly died on their first mission at the hands of a transvestite.

Brooding characters can work (Cloud!) but it's rare. We'll see. It's difficult to know what he's like from basically one picture and a brief trailer appearance.

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Originally Posted by seiferalmasy2

Any hopes I might have had for anything by Square Enix ended with X-2, XII, XIII, Dirge and all the other money spinners lacking substance. I don't see why I should get my hopes up with a series that abandoned its roots back in 2005. (I am currently retranslating VII and loving it, creating a new character for VII and loving it, making a difficulty mod for VII and loving it and finally beating Dark Aeons/penance fairly in X and loving it)

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See, again, that's personal preference. I'm playing through FFVII again and I'm really not seeing why I liked it in the first place. The translation and stupid subplots just kill the game for me. I MUCH preferred FFXIII and FFXII over VII, and X-2 is better as well, assuming you skip every cutscene.

so you can check with him to see how far along he is.

Translation errors aren't the game's fault anyway.

I enjoyed FFVII although it has been years since I played it.

FFXII bores me and has deficiencies of its own so it's not a good comparison to make imo.

I wonder when we'll hear something about the downloadable content...all that stuff they didn't have room for in the game that presumably players will be able to download.
Maybe that might improve the game for some people.
:roll2

I read somewhere that there will be no downloadable content for XIII.

Whatchu talkin' 'bout Willis?

Also I'm having a problem figuring this reasoning out. It's not like not making a town meant they didn't make other places. The only stuff in towns which is different is writing NPCs and VAing them, but that's not graphical. Plenty of graphical elements already exist for towns and I'm really not convinced that what they didn't already have amounted to so much work that it was unfeasible.

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Originally Posted by Loony BoB

I read somewhere that there will be no downloadable content for XIII.

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Square Enix Has “No Plans” For FFXIII DLC |

I had missed this.:mad: