XIII: The Strength Thread

So, we've had the Flaw Thread for a while, pointing out all the things that are wrong with this game. So I just figured I'd start one up to highlight the general high points of the latest installment. This is not to debate whether the strengths outweigh the negatives, or anything else like that. It is just to talk about what you liked.

First: The graphics. They are one of the game's biggest foci, and it shows. The game is so pretty it hurts. Characters, enemies, landscapes, cutscenes... The game did not fail to deliver a good graphical front.

Second: The characters. I really like the characters in this game. The main party is great. I even like Hope. Sure, he's whiny, but given the trauma he's been through, it's only to be expected, and it never wound up being overwhelming for me. The supporting cast, what few there are, are also very well done.

Third: The Crystarium. Definitely a step up from the sphere grid. While not perfected yet, it has a lot of potential and had some good mechanics. Combining stat bonuses from the various jobs while keeping abilities seperate was an inspired choice, allowing characters to work through multiple paths without crippling their overall characters. Though defeated somewhat by the limited progression, it has a solid foundation, and I would love to see it worked on more.

So, what did you guys find that this game did particularly well?

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Originally Posted by Skyblade

So, we've had the Flaw Thread for a while, pointing out all the things that are wrong with this game. So I just figured I'd start one up to highlight the general high points of the latest installment. This is not to debate whether the strengths outweigh the negatives, or anything else like that. It is just to talk about what you liked.

First: The graphics. They are one of the game's biggest foci, and it shows. The game is so pretty it hurts. Characters, enemies, landscapes, cutscenes... The game did not fail to deliver a good graphical front.

Second: The characters. I really like the characters in this game. The main party is great. I even like Hope. Sure, he's whiny, but given the trauma he's been through, it's only to be expected, and it never wound up being overwhelming for me. The supporting cast, what few there are, are also very well done.

Third: The Crystarium. Definitely a step up from the sphere grid. While not perfected yet, it has a lot of potential and had some good mechanics. Combining stat bonuses from the various jobs while keeping abilities seperate was an inspired choice, allowing characters to work through multiple paths without crippling their overall characters. Though defeated somewhat by the limited progression, it has a solid foundation, and I would love to see it worked on more.

So, what did you guys find that this game did particularly well?

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I Disagree with 2 and 3 but i won't start the thread with negetive comments so i'll just point out the few things i think they did right.

The graphics... obviously. Fantastic graphics.

The TP system. It wasn't that it was that great, just an improvement on FFXII. To use a quickening or summon an esper in FFXII left you severely crippled, so anything is a step up from that.

- The glorious Hamauzu music of course. I like how the tracks have a lot of variety in style and that the characters/villians all have memorable themes.
- Great story/mythology
- Pretty likeable/good characters. Even Hope becomes normal after a while.
- Lighting smacks Snow. Twice.
- Crystal Tools is amazing.

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Originally Posted by Rozaheku

- Crystal Tools is amazing.

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You mean the game engine? Can you be more specific? eg. what about it is amazing? There is so much to a game engine that it's hard to tell what made you decide this (not that I disagree, mind you!).

I liked a buttload of things to do with the game. I love the backstory and I for one enjoy trying to figure out loose ends instead of having everything written out as if it was FF for Dummies or something. I like the characters immensely. The setting of the game is fantastic. I like the various themes which exist throughout the game, particularly the l'Cie/Cie'th "slave" theme which is going on. A very interesting idea. I like the graphics, obviously enough. I like the idea that every battle should be to the death, and that (through most of the storyline) few battles are simply tapping X repeatedly - there is more often than not something more to the battle that you will have to do if you want to stay alive. I like having my health back after each battle. I like the 'ratings' system, although I felt that it could have used a bit more tweaking (eg. Gigantuar). I liked the Titan's Trials thing. I'll think of more later on, I suppose. :D

The visuals are pretty great.

The cyrstarium is by far the best of that type of level system but I do prefer actual levels with experience.

The characters were pretty cool at first but I didn't feel like they developed much, besides Hope. Light in particular got pretty stale and she was my favorite in the beginning.

- Absolutely awesome characters, except for Snow. A real pleasure to play the game with these people starring.

- Not the best battle system the series has ever had, but a very strong entry.

- The game is actually fairly challenging, especially some of the bosses, but not in the random way that Demon Wall was, well, a wall out of nowhere.

Good call.

The graphics are the most obvious! Not just visually but in terms of performance (can't speak for the 360, I have the PS3 version) - very smooth indeed, very little in the way of dropped frames etc.

The music, I also enjoyed quite a bit. Impressive work about on par with our old friend Uematsu.

The characters. All an interesting memorable and likeable bunch with some good character development in places (especially Hope, who I would say is actually my character of the game for that reason. I do enjoy the growling Fang though.)

The whole concept of L'Cie and the inevitable birth of RL tattoos. (Go on, surely someone here has one?)

Battles in general, yes there are things about it in the flaw thread (which I won't get into here) but generally speaking I enjoyed myself beating ridiculous numbers out of things and juggling juggernauts :)

Puts up a good challenge with some of the bosses and eidolons, which makes it feel more of an accomplishment

All of the story up to Oerba

The journal, when it acted as something to tell me what had just happened if I'd not been concentrating properly. (No comment on when it's used for exposition).

It's almost impossible to get lost.

Jihl.

Creature design is awesome.

The cities were futuristic, but believable and they felt original.

All characters are useful for certain situations. Keeps up the variety!

I liked the flashbacks.

The ending was good, even if it didn't make the most sense.

The graphics and music are great.

I like the fast-paced battles. And the fact that they're harder too. Actually having a chance of dying against random monsters?! That's neat. It kept me on my toes, so battling never became boring. Stagger -> Launch was fun too. Reminds me of Tekken. =]

This has been the first Final Fantasy with a likeable main character in a while.

Awwww I have nothing original to add! Everything I love has already been mentioned!

I have especially enjoyed theorising about the history of Gran Pulse and Cocoon, it's like real world history, all these little tip bits what intrigue and invite all sorts of interpretations. The orphan and barthandalus thread has been really interesting.

Prequel game please!

1-Graphics
2-Storyline.Not the best though.
3-I think this game has the best soundtrack.It is the first time I go to Youtube just to watch music(FFXIII´s).
4-Battle system is "random" but works.
5-Like all the charactes
6-It´s my style of game(Futuristic world with diplomacy and ancient back story).

I will think about more.

I'll agree with Welsh Wonder, everything that I love about this game has already been mentioned! I very much enjoyed and am still enjoying this game, especially:

-The battle system
-the music
-the characters (especially their interactions, sazh's backstory and
the tensions between Snow and Hope definitely will stick with me)
-the backstory and mythology (it's awesome analyzing the Analects and
other datalog entries)

I could go on, and while the game has a few flaws, none of them make me have any displeasure towards this game. I love it and I can't wait for the other FNC games! Think I got about 90 hours on the play clock right now...and I'm not even close to reaching all my goals.

EDIT: and oh yeah...this is the most gorgeous game I've ever played. I know people wil argue that graphics shouldn't make a game, but when I literally stop running through the map and just sit to enjoy the surroundings, that's something that's going to stick with me for a long time.

7-The anaclets.
8-Did anyone notice how FFXIII go "Point and Click" on Hope´s house and Oerba?
I loved this and this should be anywhere on the game.It was a pity this wasn´t implemented on FF8.

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Originally Posted by Future Esthar

7-The anaclets.
8-Did anyone notice how FFXIII go "Point and Click" on Hope´s house and Oerba?
I loved this and this should be anywhere on the game.It was a pity this wasn´t implemented on FF8.

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I liked the point and click. Reminds me of the good old days when you had to go talk to people to get info. I didn't once feel like i should stop and stand next to people to hear what they were saying.

The return of the tonberry was welcome.

Army of one and highwind are awesome.

I still massively dislike this game though =)

Oh yeah.Army of one and launch were cool moves.

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Originally Posted by Loony BoB

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Originally Posted by Rozaheku

- Crystal Tools is amazing.

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You mean the game engine? Can you be more specific? eg. what about it is amazing? There is so much to a game engine that it's hard to tell what made you decide this (not that I disagree, mind you!).

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Well, to be perfectly honest I was only refering to the battle system so refering to it as Crystal Tools was kind off a dumb move of me. :cry:

Snow has a kickass theme :cool:

Sazh. He's still done some stupid stuff that annoyed me in this game, but at his best he was the only character I could actually believe in any way shape or form. Not perfect, but far and away the best character in the game. Next to the Frocobo anyway. :D

Yeah, that's pretty much it.

- It's actually challenging for a change
- You can't get ridiculously overpowered and kill everything in one hit on your first playthrough
- For the most part, a good cast of characters
- It's visually gorgeous
- It has a much better soundtrack than the last few FF games
- The battle system is wonderful and probably the best of the franchise
- The voice acting is better than all the other FF games that have voice acting
- Frocobo :love:
- The story, while nothing we've not experienced before, is far better told than any of the other FF games

It's not perfect but I liked it better than the last three or four Final Fantasy installments.

The battle system is my favorite, in this game and even the whole FF series. The focus is on the paradigms and actual battle strategy. Maximum strength alone doesn't get the player through tough battles. The system is very simple yet encourages strategy and thinking.

I love the game's music. The strongest tracks are the battle themes; the best battle music in FF, IMO. Its regular battle theme is great, my favorite in the series. Saber's Edge and Eidolons are pretty epic. The game needs strong battle music because that's the heart of its gameplay.

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Originally Posted by Rad Bromance

- It's actually challenging for a change
- You can't get ridiculously overpowered and kill everything in one hit on your first playthrough
- For the most part, a good cast of characters
- It's visually gorgeous
- It has a much better soundtrack than the last few FF games
- The battle system is wonderful and probably the best of the franchise
- The voice acting is better than all the other FF games that have voice acting
- Frocobo :love:
- The story, while nothing we've not experienced before, is far better told than any of the other FF games

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All of this. Also, the healing after every battle. I'm sure there's more but I can't think at the moment :jess:

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Originally Posted by Chloe.

All of this. Also, the healing after every battle. I'm sure there's more but I can't think at the moment :jess:

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Originally that really annoyed me but now I think I'll get annoyed when I play an old FF! LOL

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Originally Posted by Rad Bromance

- The story, while nothing we've not experienced before, is far better told than any of the other FF games

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How so? I'm honestly curious for your thoughts on why it's the best told story in the series because I hated everything about how it was told. It just seemed to meander on with absolutely no direction for most of it, while the characters made decisions that didn't mesh with their characters solely to keep the plot moving in the direction the writer wanted.

I know this is the strength thread so I'm not just trying to rip it apart here. I'm just honestly curious because I can't think of anyone I've talked to who liked the story that much who could give a reasonable explanation of why.

I thought the story was great until around the time you get to the end of Chapter 11, at which point it all fell apart very quickly.

You can really feel how they ran out of time thats for sure. I like it better than the whole "time compression" jazz but no where near the best

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Originally Posted by Rad Bromance

- It's actually challenging for a change
- You can't get ridiculously overpowered and kill everything in one hit on your first playthrough
- For the most part, a good cast of characters
- It's visually gorgeous
- It has a much better soundtrack than the last few FF games
- The battle system is wonderful and probably the best of the franchise
- The voice acting is better than all the other FF games that have voice acting
- Frocobo :love:
- The story, while nothing we've not experienced before, is far better told than any of the other FF games

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Originally Posted by WelshWonder

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Originally Posted by Chloe.

All of this. Also, the healing after every battle. I'm sure there's more but I can't think at the moment :jess:

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Originally that really annoyed me but now I think I'll get annoyed when I play an old FF! LOL

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High five!

Actually I'm playing through FF8 right now, and I honestly get frustrated because of the speed of the battles.Why aren't all my characters attacking rapidly and at the same time? rip this jerk up!
I actually wait for all of the their ATB guages to fill so I can *kinda* stack their commands and have it resemble XIII combat. And also healing after battle? I'm running out of potions like every 20 minutes.

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Originally Posted by Vivi22

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Originally Posted by Rad Bromance

- The story, while nothing we've not experienced before, is far better told than any of the other FF games

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How so? I'm honestly curious for your thoughts on why it's the best told story in the series because I hated everything about how it was told. It just seemed to meander on with absolutely no direction for most of it, while the characters made decisions that didn't mesh with their characters solely to keep the plot moving in the direction the writer wanted.

I know this is the strength thread so I'm not just trying to rip it apart here. I'm just honestly curious because I can't think of anyone I've talked to who liked the story that much who could give a reasonable explanation of why.

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The story telling in FFXIII was an insult. Most of the important information is told throught the datalog and alot of other information was told through constant flashbacks. From chapters 2 through to 8, very little actually happens regarding plot. Our characters are running away, we have no idea if they are going to save or destroy the world and from chapter 12, it's motivational speaches in most every cutscene, despite our heroes not really knowing what they plan to do.

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I like it better than the whole "time compression" jazz but no where near the best

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It´s not better.Why didn´t you like it?

FFXIII has the best soundtrack in my opinion.

It's an opinion, you cant just say no to someone else's opinion. I didn't like the time compression storyline, I like theories of reality and dimensions (I have a philosophy degree so I better lol) but the whole time compression thing never held up for me. I didn't like it, I know others did but I didn't.

I am not disrespecting opinions,I am just asking why.

For me, anything involving time travel or time compression is annoying and unwanted. I dislike such things because they are so inherently flawed particularly time compression. But this thread is about FFXIII, so let's not get off topic. If you want to discuss whether people dislike time compression and why, you should probably start a thread in the FFVIII forum.

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Originally Posted by Shin Gouken

The story telling in FFXIII was an insult. Most of the important information is told throught the datalog and alot of other information was told through constant flashbacks. From chapters 2 through to 8, very little actually happens regarding plot. Our characters are running away, we have no idea if they are going to save or destroy the world and from chapter 12, it's motivational speaches in most every cutscene, despite our heroes not really knowing what they plan to do.

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this is a strength thread, and some people are here saying they like the story....so why not post in the flaw thread if you dislike it so much?

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Originally Posted by finaloblivion

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Originally Posted by Shin Gouken

The story telling in FFXIII was an insult. Most of the important information is told throught the datalog and alot of other information was told through constant flashbacks. From chapters 2 through to 8, very little actually happens regarding plot. Our characters are running away, we have no idea if they are going to save or destroy the world and from chapter 12, it's motivational speaches in most every cutscene, despite our heroes not really knowing what they plan to do.

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this is a strength thread, and some people are here saying they like the story....so why not post in the flaw thread if you dislike it so much?

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Funny, i was just thinking this too.

Yip, sorry Shin, as much as this game is a disease, you should stay to the flaw threads :)

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Originally Posted by seiferalmasy2

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Originally Posted by finaloblivion

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Originally Posted by Shin Gouken

The story telling in FFXIII was an insult. Most of the important information is told throught the datalog and alot of other information was told through constant flashbacks. From chapters 2 through to 8, very little actually happens regarding plot. Our characters are running away, we have no idea if they are going to save or destroy the world and from chapter 12, it's motivational speaches in most every cutscene, despite our heroes not really knowing what they plan to do.

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this is a strength thread, and some people are here saying they like the story....so why not post in the flaw thread if you dislike it so much?

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Funny, i was just thinking this too.

Yip, sorry Shin, as much as this game is a disease, you should stay to the flaw threads :)

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Or i could just paste my thoughts on the subject into my sig =)

Well, i apologize, yes you are right, there is a thread for negative opinions.

However, i merely answered a question somebody asked regarding why the story was so good, if people would like to expand on the subject i'd love to hear it.

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Originally Posted by Loony BoB

For me, anything involving time travel or time compression is annoying and unwanted. I dislike such things because they are so inherently flawed particularly time compression. But this thread is about FFXIII, so let's not get off topic. If you want to discuss whether people dislike time compression and why, you should probably start a thread in the FFVIII forum.

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I direct you to Chrono Trigger.

The Chain Meter (not the Stagger System, just the Chain Meter itself). A refinement of the attack chains from X-2, but it actually lets you continue them across multiple turns and see precisely what effect they have. The choice between Ravagers and Commandos was one of the most interesting in the new battle system, constantly allowing you to balance raising the damage each later hit does versus dealing huge burst damage right now.

Oh, I liked not having to worry about MP at all. The idea that bigger spells just require more skill slots and thus take up more of your turn is really neat, for me. It's still balanced, too - for the most part, the small hits and the big hits are both useful in their own rights.

Not having MP worked fine in this combat system. Even though it wasn't my favorite system it was innovative, and a lot better than FFXII.

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The choice between Ravagers and Commandos was one of the most interesting in the new battle system, constantly allowing you to balance raising the damage each later hit does versus dealing huge burst damage right now.

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Oh, I liked not having to worry about MP at all. The idea that bigger spells just require more skill slots and thus take up more of your turn is really neat, for me. It's still balanced, too - for the most part, the small hits and the big hits are both useful in their own rights.

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Can´t agree the most.

Yeah, having to heal up after battle is something I didn't miss at all. It was just a faff for no good reason, much like tents (prior to FFX).

Well, to answer your question shin, I think that the use of the datalogs made absolute sense. I also enjoy this storytelling device in games like Mass Effect as well. I think that leaving a lot of the back story and mythology to items such as the Codex or Datalog left more room in the actual dialogue and gameplay for character development and interaction.

In other FFs, you walked around and gathered information and backstory from NPCs and whatnot, or the characters talked about it amongst themselves. Usually, I wouldn't really enjoy having to walk around towns and talk to people and watch their animations just to find out specific things. While the story in XIII is nothing that's radically different or anything, I do feel that the way the character's interacted with each other and the different tentions were something unique and also thoroughly enjoyed by me. Other people, as well. But, if the characters were talking all the time about the history of fal'Cie and Pulse and the War of Trangression in the dialogue, it wouldn't leave a lot of room for the other things the staff wanted to pay attention to. And that's also not to say they didn't talk about it at all - they did, as real people would. When the information was relevant to the situation, say...when Fang or Vanille would offer little tour guide-y quips throughout your travels on Gran Pulse. That sort of stuff makes sense and I like it a lot. It wasn't the actual story itself that was SO great, it was the way the people inside the story reacted to their situations and each other that made it awesome for me. It had a touch more humanity than previous FF titles.