The great video game 'crumple' of 201x?

Interesting article went up on Gamesradar a couple days ago: Could motion control cause a game market "crash"? | GamesRadar

Basically his argument is that the nature of trying to appeal to casuals encourages shovelware (because, as non-serious gamers, they won't go out looking for information, they will just see something appealing and buy it) and that we could become so inundated with shovelware once Natal and Move show up that we experience a fairly serious reduction in the market. Not as severe as '83, but big enough to force businesses to rethink what they're doing quite strongly.

Read the article and discuss! Inevitably rage against Wii/elitist self-procliamed "hardcore" gamers!

I read this when it was posted and found it quite interesting.

Seems quite plausible, though with something like this it is just as likely it could be a shot in the dark.

What I missed out of the whole thing was why I should care. It sounds to me like a purge of all this crap from the gaming industry would benefit someone like me. Sure motion control has brought a whole bunch more money and interest into the industry, but that money and interest is just going to develop more (as much as I hate the term) 'casual friendly' content.

Imo if 'gaming' and 'interactive entertainment' could split the sheets and go their separate ways I would be really appreciative.

As far as I'm concerned there's already an overflow on the market besides shovelware, in the form of an endless pit of FPS, Racing and Sports games. Adventure Gaming has taken a serious hit and it's a damned shame. :p

As for a possible shovelware overflow, I think natural selection will take care of that since there's a whole bunch of successful established franchises out there that will continue to crank out sequels without motion control, people would rather buy that than shovelware.

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Originally Posted by I'm my own MILF

Not as severe as '83

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dear god not '83 again. please god, anything but '83. that was a bloodbath :crying2:

i have nothing of relevance to add to this thread.

I smurfing hope it does, then maybe we can go back to real innovations and real gameplay for a couple of years and not waggle.

If anything crashes, it'll be the shovelware motion control market rather than games as a whole. I've thought for a long time that pandering to people who could care less about games and are as happy to leave when the novelty wears off as they were to join in when the Wii came out is a bad business practice. Software attach rates are absurdly low for those people as it is so there really isn't much market there.

But the idea of shovelware becoming all that there is on any of the consoles is a little over the top if you ask me. When it comes right down to it, it's not casual sales that have kept the PS3 and 360 going so far. Each has a strong install base among people who actually give a crap about games and not Wii Fit and that base will continue to grow for each, so I don't see shovelware becoming the dominant products for those systems, or causing their particular market to collapse completely. Now shovelware may become more prevalent and a little more annoying for each system, but heralding the game industry apocalypse is little more than just trying to be alarmist if you ask me.

I hope so. Maybe then we can get more than one worthwhile non-FPS game a year again? :)

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Originally Posted by Levian

As far as I'm concerned there's already an overflow on the market besides shovelware, in the form of an endless pit of FPS, Racing and Sports games. Adventure Gaming has taken a serious hit and it's a damned shame. :p

As for a possible shovelware overflow, I think natural selection will take care of that since there's a whole bunch of successful established franchises out there that will continue to crank out sequels without motion control, people would rather buy that than shovelware.

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There aren't that much good racing games (other than GT and Forza), but you make a good point. The market is being flooded with the same FPS/TPS games and sequel after sequel. Games are getting more bland and dumbed down and too focused on the action, Mass Effect 2 being one of the best examples of this year of a game that sacrificed plot and depth for 'moar gunz'.

While they're selling like crazy atm, I think the xbox kids who buy all these games (and who are probably the biggest cause behind this development) are gonna have enough of them and then the market will come crashing down. And maybe then the PC will shine again as a gaming platform because it's really been going downhill since this last generation of consoles.

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Originally Posted by kotora

There aren't that much good racing games (other than GT and Forza)

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Depends on whether you prefer simulation or arcade. If you're talking pure omg-this-is-impossible simulation, GT and Forza are pretty much your only options, but if you start to move down the scale toward half-sim, half-arcade racing, you've got Colin McRae DiRT, Race Driver: Grid, Need For Speed: Shift and games like the Formula One sims that give you a million driver aids if you suck. Purely arcade-style racers like Burnout and the illegal street racing-style games (NFSs Underground to Undercover, Midnight Club, Ridge Racer) are losing their grip on the market but games of this niche within a genre like Most Wanted, Carbon and DUB Edition were pretty good games.

But I digress.

I don't believe that the attempts to make more games that appeal to casual gamers threatens the market. I don't think this shovelware is going to appeal to the majority of people with PS3s and 360s anyway. It's like in motorsport when one team develops some sort of groundbreaking new aerodynamic/engineering innovation. All the other teams will copy the first one to compensate. No team gains an advantage. Everyone is exactly where they started to begin with and millions of dollars will be wasted.

As Vivi said, every serious/hardcore gamer who owns a console, even the ones who own a Wii exclusively, are in it for the serious games, not the casual ones.

I can hope for a crash. The entire motion control idea was terrible for the beginning, and the sooner it goes up in flames, the better. Let's hope the Move and Natal crash and burn, and take the Wiimote with them.

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Originally Posted by Skyblade

I can hope for a crash. The entire motion control idea was terrible for the beginning, and the sooner it goes up in flames, the better. Let's hope the Move and Natal crash and burn, and take the Wiimote with them.

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The game market doesn't really need to crash for that to happen though. All it would take is for people to stop buying said shovelware which may be coming. But then again, my mom, who is exactly the sort of casual gamer Nintendo has been attracting since the release of the Wii plays hidden object games, so we may all be underestimating the tolerance level these gamers have for complete :bou::bou::bou::bou:.

I swear it amazes me that her taste in games usually includes games that I previously would have thought you'd need to be five to enjoy.

I could see it happening actually; constant graphical upgrading is eventually gonna make games take too much time and resources to develop.

Except nothing new happened in graphicsland since 2007 with Crysis, and that's only going to be surpassed by its own sequel. These past years graphics have pretty much stayed the same because of the consoles being the bigger platform now.

I actually read this yesterday, it's something I've thought about and i think the article was pretty good about it.

I think VeloZer0 summed up how I feel. I hope a crash happens so we can get all the mutual funds big corporate investors out of here and get this thing back to an art/science instead of a business. We don't need video games to be accepted by the mainstream to start seeing quality titles. It's actually quite the opposite, I believe.

Also, others have pointed out how there is a concrete, knowledgeable fanbase of "hardcore" (ugh, buzzword) gamers who know what we like and buy it, so we don't have to worry. I actually feel like a waggle-collapse could be disastrous to the industry because of how much money is put into it and relied on it, that it could cripple everything.

That being said, waggle is a fad, and when the exodus begins, it will be a turning point for video games.

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Originally Posted by Levian

As far as I'm concerned there's already an overflow on the market besides shovelware, in the form of an endless pit of FPS, Racing and Sports games.

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This is true and I sympathize with how you feel, but unfortunately there's been so many great racing and FPS games I'm almost ashamed to admit how many of them I've really liked. I'm actually having a blast right now with Bad Company 2 as I type this. I said to myself "this is the last kind of these games I have to buy," but already I know Resistance 3, Killzone 3, Crysis 2 and Far Cry 3 are all games I'm going to inevitably get and play the crap out of, even the new Medal of Honor is looking pretty good. Mo-Nercy summed it up about the racing games, but left out one of my favorites of today, Motorstorm, man I'm addicted with this stuff I would never imagine playing last "generation" (ugh buzzword).

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Originally Posted by kotora

Except nothing new happened in graphicsland since 2007 with Crysis, and that's only going to be surpassed by its own sequel. These past years graphics have pretty much stayed the same because of the consoles being the bigger platform now.

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Well it depends. As far as progression, yeah, but there's barely anything aside Metro 2033 that even comes close to that (other than Crysis 2 on PC as you mentioned) so it's kind of like its own little thing. I think a big story is that the large publishers have kicked their reliance on the Unreal Engine 3. Personally that's huge to me considering how literally every other game used it only a year and a half or two ago. Also, I think motion blur's going to be a really big thing now. It made God of War III stand out as a beautiful artistic work in motion, it wasn't the first necessarily, but it's the first to use it in a good way and well. Look at the Reach Beta - it's Halo 3 with motion blur and the results speak for themselves.

Lastly, I think how far developers have pushed the PS3 has been a big thing. A lot of people feel the recent footage of Crysis 2 on consoles hasn't matched Killzone yet. And of course there's God of War as well

There is also the possibility that gaming will follow the movie industry. Hollywood has been putting out junk for decades without it killing their business. We'll just have to hope for the little producers who know actual quality.

A large part of movie box office sale are from people who just want to go to the movies to see anything. It is the social aspect of going to the movies that gets a lot of people there, not what is actually playing. The amount of people who go to the game store to go pick up a new game without a specific one in mind is a considerably smaller market than that of movies.
So while the are somewhat similar on the production end, the consumption end is quite different.


On a side note, I could never wrap my head around:
A: "want to go see a movie?"
B: "what's on?"
A: "I don't know."

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The amount of people who go to the game store to go pick up a new game without a specific one in mind is a considerably smaller market than that of movies.

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I go to two different Gamestops at least once a week to talk to my two favorite girls :p

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Originally Posted by VeloZer0

A large part of movie box office sale are from people who just want to go to the movies to see anything. It is the social aspect of going to the movies that gets a lot of people there, not what is actually playing. The amount of people who go to the game store to go pick up a new game without a specific one in mind is a considerably smaller market than that of movies.
So while the are somewhat similar on the production end, the consumption end is quite different.


On a side note, I could never wrap my head around:
A: "want to go see a movie?"
B: "what's on?"
A: "I don't know."

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Oh, fo' sho. I would never pay to go see some movie I didn't know about and planned on seeing.

I can see the argument about the PS3 and 360 being somewhat protected by the fact they've already got a big base of people who know what they like and will continue to support it. But depending on the level of investment into Move and Natal, will it be enough?

I mean, by this point in a console cycle we'd be expecting the next ones to be on the horizon - but instead we have motion control. Are new consoles further away? (I would wager so, seeing as these two still feel so young and there's clearly still a lot of potential in them) But if they are, these things are pretty likely to be sidelines; they require the consoles themselves to work, and they have nowhere NEAR the clout the Wii does as a brand name. They've obviously seen pretty huge investment, but I can't help thinking of the 32x.

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Originally Posted by I'm my own MILF

I can see the argument about the PS3 and 360 being somewhat protected by the fact they've already got a big base of people who know what they like and will continue to support it. But depending on the level of investment into Move and Natal, will it be enough?

I mean, by this point in a console cycle we'd be expecting the next ones to be on the horizon - but instead we have motion control. Are new consoles further away? (I would wager so, seeing as these two still feel so young and there's clearly still a lot of potential in them) But if they are, these things are pretty likely to be sidelines; they require the consoles themselves to work, and they have nowhere NEAR the clout the Wii does as a brand name. They've obviously seen pretty huge investment, but I can't help thinking of the 32x.

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That's what I'm thinking, I mean it's so much money to launch a new product, the amount of marketing they're going to have to do to push these things out there, especially if they want to actually compete with the Wii, on top of having retailers stock these things in their already crowded space.

I remember when they announced the Wii/PS3/360 for E3... I felt it was too soon then and I would totally feel it's too soon now. This generation had so many hiccups, they owe us at least a couple more years in it.

GTA: V will rise above motion control and single handedly save the gaming industry. EA will still be a pain in the ass.

(This feels like one of those “In the year 2000” things, except I’m not funny).

I don't think we will have a gaming slouch. Cause even despite the motion controls which is awesome for games like Mario Kart. Smash Bros Brawl didn't require motion control. Mario Galaxy and New Super Mario Bros used it minimally. Metroid Prime incorporated it well. No More Heroes used it well. The Conduit controlled well, though the rest was meh. Muramasa didn't require motion controls. Monster Hunter Tri is one of Wii's biggest games and came with a Classic Controller.

I could keep going on with some more games I enjoy on my Wii, but essentially my point is that while there is plenty of crap and shovel ware that captures the casual friendly market... there are still those good games that use it minimally, correctly, or not at all.

Don't get me wrong, I love my PS3(A WHOLE LOT), but since Monster Hunter Tri, Mario Galaxy 2 coming, Sin and Punishment 2, Arc Rise Fantasia, Metroid Other M... I don't really have a PS3 title on my (personal) radar, it's dominated by Wii games, that I know will use Motion Control correctly(Or not at all).

THE JACKEL

All this looks like to me is some guy seeing a way to make a prediction, throw some history in, make some conjectures, and then wait to see if he can say "I told you all!" in the future.

Oh, and there's the added bonus of giving people an opportunity to piss. A lot.

What did you think industry analysis was? :D

It'll most likely be something like the second option. It fails, nobody cares, big deal.

Although I do agree that it's retarded to go back to less buttons, like some sort of devolution of gaming.

Sorry, but I just don't buy the doomsaying about a new crash of any significance. A few points

I. There's not an overflow of consoles right now. Around the '83 crash there were tons of consoles. There not only was no quality control (like what Nintendo did with the NES quality seal thing), but different manufacturers constantly made knock offs that could interchangeable play games of other consoles and the like. Consumers didn't know what to buy and didn't care. Now the worst you can do is be confused by Wii vs 360 vs PS3 or the 53 versions of the DS Nintendo has out.

II. Gaming is less of a niche market now. I think it could be sustained entirely by the mid-to-core players without the casuals feeding money at all. The hardcore crowd of '83 was a small group of nerds compared to the fairly mainstream gamer averaging 35 years-old today. If shovelware saturation drives away the casuals it will make little difference except put a tad less money into the pockets of the developers.

Conclusion
Casuals are good. They add dollars to the development of "serious" games for the core players. Developers can sell tons of copies of games that cost next to nothing to make to the casuals. If the casuals bail on gaming the budgets might be tighter, but the focus will also be tighter. Knowing that the core gamers are the ones keeping the industry afloat, developers will start zeroing in on those gamers even more than they do now and be more reticent to throw a few bucks at the next "Carnival Adventures" game that gets pitched to them.

^ I agree with nearly everything you're saying (as usual), in fact this is exactly what I'm hoping will happen, but you have to admit the casuals is the only source of income right now for Nintendo. I don't think they could go back to building up that Nintendo class of products while coaxing EA, Activision and Ubisoft to make all the same games they are on Playstation and XBox on their system. Hell, it would take them to make another console. You could argue they may be getting ready for it now with new Golden Sun, Metroid, Pokemon, etc. but... I don't know.

What makes you think casual money is going to develop 'hardcore' products? If I was raking in money from a new market why on earth would I re-invest it into my old market with a much lower ROI. More likely money coming in for casual is being re-invested into casual. If what you said was true the Wii would have a 'hardcore' line up that put the others to shame.

I don't see this casual money helping hardcore gamers at all. The only benefit I can see is increasing sales of consoles to lower the per unit cost.

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Originally Posted by Bolivar

^ I agree with nearly everything you're saying (as usual), in fact this is exactly what I'm hoping will happen, but you have to admit the casuals is the only source of income right now for Nintendo. I don't think they could go back to building up that Nintendo class of products while coaxing EA, Activision and Ubisoft to make all the same games they are on Playstation and XBox on their system. Hell, it would take them to make another console. You could argue they may be getting ready for it now with new Golden Sun, Metroid, Pokemon, etc. but... I don't know.

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I highly disagree with their only income being casuals. I would hardly consider myself casual, and I certainly give a lot of money to Nintendo. Secondly, the people buying every iteration of the DS (I own original DS, Lite, and DSi) are certainly not casual gamers either. There are also some rare but very awesome other games, like Monster Hunter Tri, or Muramasa: The Demon Blade, which are exceptional games, for any console.

When it boils down to it, casual really only make them money on the system. Very few, to literally no one, is buying most of this trash. I know many casual gaming people that own Wii's, that buy 1, maybe 2 games a year.

THE JACKEL

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Originally Posted by ljkkjlcm9

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Originally Posted by Bolivar

^ I agree with nearly everything you're saying (as usual), in fact this is exactly what I'm hoping will happen, but you have to admit the casuals is the only source of income right now for Nintendo. I don't think they could go back to building up that Nintendo class of products while coaxing EA, Activision and Ubisoft to make all the same games they are on Playstation and XBox on their system. Hell, it would take them to make another console. You could argue they may be getting ready for it now with new Golden Sun, Metroid, Pokemon, etc. but... I don't know.

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I highly disagree with their only income being casuals. I would hardly consider myself casual, and I certainly give a lot of money to Nintendo. Secondly, the people buying every iteration of the DS (I own original DS, Lite, and DSi) are certainly not casual gamers either. There are also some rare but very awesome other games, like Monster Hunter Tri, or Muramasa: The Demon Blade, which are exceptional games, for any console.

When it boils down to it, casual really only make them money on the system. Very few, to literally no one, is buying most of this trash. I know many casual gaming people that own Wii's, that buy 1, maybe 2 games a year.

THE JACKAL

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I don't think Bolivar meant that casuals are literally Nintendo's only source of income, but on the Wii they might as well be. If the casual market were to disappear then they'd be left without a lot of license fees for the shovelware crap a lot of casuals are prone to buying (and which don't need to sell much to make a high return), almost no one buying the next iteration of Wii Fit or Sports, and without the install base of hardcore gamers required to support the system alone. Throw in a lack of interest in providing more hardcore titles among third parties (especially given the relative inability of any of the ones that are there to sell) and I really think that the best Nintendo could hope for if the casual market imploded is that the Wii would end up stuck in the same boat the Gamecube was at the end of the last gen; Nintendo being the only one supporting it with any titles even marginally worth playing.

I don't know about Monster Hunter, but I usual hear Murmasa referred to as one of the examples on how when a good game is released on Wii it doesn't get any attention or sales.

I don't know about sales, but it's been one of the most talked about games among many sites I go to for some time now.

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Originally Posted by VeloZer0

What makes you think casual money is going to develop 'hardcore' products? If I was raking in money from a new market why on earth would I re-invest it into my old market with a much lower ROI. More likely money coming in for casual is being re-invested into casual. If what you said was true the Wii would have a 'hardcore' line up that put the others to shame.

I don't see this casual money helping hardcore gamers at all. The only benefit I can see is increasing sales of consoles to lower the per unit cost.

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I'm saying that development costs are so low for those games in relation to the income that there is literally too much to even feed back into the casual development. It's simply more than they need. For studios that do a little of both, the excessive overflow feeds the hardcore side. I think this is most true with first party studios, but not completely untrue of the rest.

You've still got your Zygna's, but even they aren't evil. They are the gateway drugs of the gaming world. People who would scoff at mainstream gaming will play Farmville type games and some of them might even start to try other stuff. I'm actually interested to see what happens with the Civilization game on Facebook. That's something that could cast a wide net and bring a few non-gamers to try out a real civilization game. The target for that net are the people playing Farmville incessantly. The same Skinner-box effect will draw them in.

According to VG Chartz the sales are only 280,000. On an install base of almost 71 million.

The fact that it is a well respected game amongst the 'hardcore' game community and fails miserably on the Wii is exactly what I am talking about. (Anyone who reads and posts on sites about video games easily qualifies as hardcore for the purpose of this exercise)

The emphasis on motion controls will, in my opinion, have a negative effect in the short term. It might cause a slump, but that will only inspire the people who aren't satisfied with shovelware to get off their asses and make something great. I don't think the industry has anything to worry about in the long term.

(didn't read anything in this thread, sorry :()

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Originally Posted by VeloZer0

According to VG Chartz the sales are only 280,000. On an install base of almost 71 million.

The fact that it is a well respected game amongst the 'hardcore' game community and fails miserably on the Wii is exactly what I am talking about. (Anyone who reads and posts on sites about video games easily qualifies as hardcore for the purpose of this exercise)

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Oh damn, I didn't think the situation was THAT bad. =o

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Originally Posted by ljkkjlcm9

I highly disagree with their only income being casuals. I would hardly consider myself casual, and I certainly give a lot of money to Nintendo. Secondly, the people buying every iteration of the DS (I own original DS, Lite, and DSi) are certainly not casual gamers either. There are also some rare but very awesome other games, like Monster Hunter Tri, or Muramasa: The Demon Blade, which are exceptional games, for any console.

When it boils down to it, casual really only make them money on the system. Very few, to literally no one, is buying most of this trash. I know many casual gaming people that own Wii's, that buy 1, maybe 2 games a year.

THE JACKAL

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you're right, but Vivi elaborated on what I meant, that the overwhelming vast majority of income they get is not on "real" (can i stop using "hardcore") or traditional games as we know them.

I still have to admit the situation isn't as clear as I may have led on. Smash Brothers, Zelda, and Mario (some of them are games) still perform very well, certainly comparable to the biggest titles on the others.

But everything else, from Mad World, to the Conduit, even Muramasa and Monster Hunter do not perform well at all.

IDK. It's going to be interesting to see how this plays out.

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Originally Posted by Bolivar

I still have to admit the situation isn't as clear as I may have led on. Smash Brothers, Zelda, and Mario (some of them are games) still perform very well, certainly comparable to the biggest titles on the others.

But everything else, from Mad World, to the Conduit, even Muramasa and Monster Hunter do not perform well at all.

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Which is pretty much what I meant when I said that losing the casual market would make the Wii the new Gamecube (or should I say Gamecube with a new controller? :D). Nintendo's titles always sold just fine, but 3rd Party games just could not sell. Even legitimately good multi-platform games never did as well on it as the PS2 and Xbox, and now that the Wii is at such a severe hardware disadvantage I'd bet it would be even worse for them in the traditional gaming market. How do you compete when your competition can do everything you can but a lot better? Hell, how do you even get developers interested in making more hardcore games (for lack of a better term) in such a situation. I don't think they can.

WARNING!!! WALL OF TEXT!!!

I couldn't finish reading the article cause it was just filled with too much odd conjecture. Besides, I agree with Yeargdribble that this guys "history" lesson leaves out too many important factors that really helped cause the Crash.

Will Motion Control cause a game industry crash? No. Why? cause the Crash of 83 didn't have a foundation of gamers who grew up on video games, it was simply just a fad for people in the 70's and early 80's but Nintendo saved it from "Macarena obscurity" by having good business sense and a decent piece of hardware.

Honestly, I do feel the game industry might be ready for a good old fashioned slump and recession (we might even be in it now) cause shovelware is not a Wii problem, its an industry problem cause all the consoles have shovelware. Yes, the Wii has more but what the new consoles do have is just a majority of sequels which are basically the first game with a bit of new dressing but ultimately the same game as its predecessors. You can't really say there are really many new types of games on the next gen consoles. The PS3, 360, and Wii from a gaming library standpoint, are little more than the Cube, PS2 , and X-Box with the same library of core games with new graphics. Could you really say MGS4 is radically different from MGS1? Especially when you compare them to their impacts on the console and the gaming industry? Not really. MGS4 is simply MGS1 with better graphics and controls and a few "gimmicky" abilites that MGS1 lacked but did MGS4 really radically change the series? No. Can we say the same of Halo, GTA, Gran Turismo, Smash Bros., God of War, and Zelda. Are they all completely original redesigns of their predecessors that are continuously pushing the industry forward or simply the original titles with a few extra features and some better graphics?

The problem with the industry isn't just "shovelware", its also "sequel-itis", and the fault of jaded "Hardcore" gamers. Nintendo and its motion controls may have brought in the "casual" crowd of gamers and flooded its own market with shovelware (though that's a completely different problem and has little to do with the casual market as much as Nintendo's own quality control problem), but they have also brought forth new ways into thinking about game design as opposed to Sony and Microsoft who only perpetuate the idea of better graphics and audio. Has the PS3 and 360 really brought in a new generation of gaming, or has it just done what's been going on since the 3D revolution of Sega Saturn, PS1 and the N64, re-releasing those generations of gaming. Sure Sandbox gaming became more mainstream as well as other genres like RPGs and FPS but they are hardly innovative as much as its just simply becoming mainstream, as many of those genres existed before the 3D revolution. (The major exception of course being LittleBigPlanet)

Nintendo at least seemed to realize that building bigger better hardware to make prettier games was an evolutionary dead end, seriously, how can you really say the PS3 and 360 are next generation gaming when they are simply just bigger better looking versions of the last generation. Halo, MGS, Bioware RPGs, and many other mainstream titles didn't radically change this generation, they picked up a slightly new trick here and there but the major elements are still front and center for most of them. They are not so radically different from previous installments of their franchises. Many of them lack serious innovation but its not the developers complete fault as much as its the fault of the hardcore fans who unwillingly hold onto the creed of "you changed everything and now it sucks" without really giving much objective thought to how the innovation could create a better gaming.

I feel that we as gamers are doing a disservice to the industry because we latched onto what we feel the industry is and never bother to stray too far from this perspective. If "Hardcore" gamers were truly "Hardcore" and major proponents of gaming as a medium, they should be a little more open to new ways of experiencing the medium instead of quickly dismissing things as "gimmicky" or "cash cows trying to take more money from us" and instead take a look at new technologies (and move out of your comfort zone once in awhile) to see new ways we can interact and play games. Ico, Katamari, Guitar Hero, DDR, Braid, and now the Wii are all titles and systems that are showing us different ways to experience our medium and I feel we should at least be trying to encourage these types of developments rather than try to keep the status quo. I love Snake and the MGS franchise but I'll be one of the first to say I would be happy if the franchise was retired for awhile. Yes, I'll be first in line for Peace Walker but I would actually be more excited for Kojima to be working on a new IP or an Snatcher and ZoE sequel than be trapped making MGS games forever.

Now this is not to say I feel the Wii has been a success, if I was going to compare the Wii technology to an era of gaming, its when the CD peripherals first showed up in the early 90's. Sega CD had some good games but a lot of it was crap and we never even saw some the satellite gaming peripheral for Nintendo which also featured mostly shovelware crap as well. This is how I view it all. Its not that Motion Controls is bad for gaming (its actually been good since its brought in a whole new group of gamers who actually graduate into the more socially accepted consoles from the gamer society and with that bring in new fresh perspectives of how games should be done) but rather it may have come a bit too early for the hardcore to appreciate. If the casual bubble crashes, Motion control might fade into a hobby market but in another ten years, someone else may pick up the technology and finally show us old people how it ought to be done.

I feel this is the problem with the Wii, its not that the technology is terrible. Its breaking new ground and its definetly a bit buggy but weren't early CD's the same way with their terribly long load times and some of the quality of those early titles? The other problem is that the industry doesn't know what to do with it. Nintendo had some great early ideas to get people to hop on-board with the idea but its obvious Nintendo isn't sure where to go from here. The rest of the 3rd party industry as usual, is looking towards Nintendo to copy... I mean "guidance" to see how to use the technology. What the Wii needs is a few more people to really experiment and show new ways to use the technology and not be afraid to fail. It also wouldn't hurt if Nintendo backed off a bit and made the Wii-mote another element of the gaming console as opposed to the main focus and this is what I think we'll see next generation. Motion Controllers and games, but they will not be the main attraction, just another element like online gaming and peripheral based titles like Guitar Hero/Rock Band.

I feel that the amount of sales and the fact that Sony and Microsoft are working on this technology (Sony longer than Nintendo, the EyeToy says hi) just shows that motion controls are not really a fad but possibly a future gaming opportunity. It is stuck in its infancy but I feel the technology has a lot of potential. Wii Fit and Wii Music may not be groundbreaking games that everyone enjoys but the technology it employs I feel could lead to better and more innovative games in the future Will we see it this generation? Possibly but I wouldn't expect it until the very end of this console generations lifespan if at all. It might be another decade before the technology hits its full potential but I don't see why that should be reason to hope for its demise. Nintendo dropped the ball on quality control but I feel the system has just as many good games on it as the other two consoles even though a good chunk of them are simply word of mouth rather than recognized by the industry and community.

Another problem here is that I feel we "old-timers" are completely underestimating the "casual crowd" we focus on grandma and our parents but really, the system is being built for more of a family appeal and that means the more tech savvy kids can call the shots. I don't think the shovelware titles on the Wii are being any more successful than some of the major successes like the Mario titles cause some of these casual gamers are smart enough to do a bit more research. I know my parents ask me my opinion before they make a choice on games and my own father is a huge PC gamer so he definetly does his research and hell, some of the more interesting and endearing games I've played were off the wall choices made by distant relatives finding a game they think I would like (I still love Seicross, thank you Uncle! :love: ). G-parents might be in the dark but I feel some of our parents are probably just as tech savvy as we are and many of the parents for the Wii are people the same age as some of us. I know a few people who bought the Wii for kids and then bring out the 360 and PS3 when the kids are tucked away. Guys and gals for that matter. So I feel we are definetly underestimating things here and I wouldn't be surprised if the ""ultra causal" market has already moved on from the Wii and its silly motion controls but it hasn't stopped the system from doing well.

So for the ADD crowd... I'll summarize by saying: stop having a damn short attention span and read the whole thing you silly goose. :p

http://images.starcraftmazter.net/4c...ls/tl%3Bdr.jpg

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Originally Posted by Aerith's Knight

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Exactly.

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Originally Posted by Wolf Kanno

Could you really say MGS4 is radically different from MGS1? Especially when you compare them to their impacts on the console and the gaming industry? Not really. MGS4 is simply MGS1 with better graphics and controls and a few "gimmicky" abilites that MGS1 lacked but did MGS4 really radically change the series? No.

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You know, I agree with you a lot of the time about a lot of things WK, but seriously, I have to wonder if you really played MGS4 when you say something like this. Did it change a lot in terms of features? Not really, but those few changes lead to a massive upheaval of the MGS game design. Not only was it now possible to sneak through an area (and sneaking was quite a bit different compared to MGS), but you could run and gun quite viably, you could side with one faction early on or neither. The games are massively different in terms of gameplay and MGS4 offered a variety of viable play styles that not only worked, but all worked pretty much perfectly. I have to say that it's by and large one of the most brilliantly designed titles I've ever played and a far cry from it's PSOne predecessor.

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Originally Posted by Wolf Kanno

Nintendo and its motion controls may have brought in the "casual" crowd of gamers and flooded its own market with shovelware (though that's a completely different problem and has little to do with the casual market as much as Nintendo's own quality control problem), but they have also brought forth new ways into thinking about game design as opposed to Sony and Microsoft who only perpetuate the idea of better graphics and audio.

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Adding in poor motion control that at it's best mimics a computer mouse reasonably well and at it's worst is a laggy inaccurate pile of waggle doesn't lead to more innovative games. The fact that 95% of games don't use it well and the other 5% would be better off with a traditional controller or mouse kind of proves it. I honestly can't think of a single Wii game that really impressed me in terms of motion control implementation. Are they more accessible for those who are afraid of a lot of buttons? Sure. Do they offer any experiences that can't be done just as well with other control methods? Not yet, and I'd say never if they continue in their current form.

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Originally Posted by Wolf Kanno

Has the PS3 and 360 really brought in a new generation of gaming, or has it just done what's been going on since the 3D revolution of Sega Saturn, PS1 and the N64, re-releasing those generations of gaming. Sure Sandbox gaming became more mainstream as well as other genres like RPGs and FPS but they are hardly innovative as much as its just simply becoming mainstream, as many of those genres existed before the 3D revolution. (The major exception of course being LittleBigPlanet)

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You don't have to create a new genre to innovate. The existence of Portal alone proves that. But while we're on the topic of how much innovation in terms of gameplay these companies have brought to the table, LBP is more than Nintendo has done in 14 years. The fact that we can also credit Sony with Ico, Shadow of the Colossus, producing Heavy Rain, Echochrome, and probably more that I'm forgetting makes Sony the most innovative console manufacturer out there as far as I'm concerned. If you want to talk about a company who rides the minimal changes sequel wave for all it's worth, Nintendo would be the poster company for it if Activision and EA didn't exist. They haven't made a new game since the N64 died.

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Originally Posted by Wolf Kanno

Wii Fit and Wii Music may not be groundbreaking games that everyone enjoys

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Wii Fit isn't a game. There I said it.

Calling Wii Music a game is a bit of a stretch too though you could make a better case for it than Wii Fit.

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I couldn't finish reading the article cause it was just filled with too much odd conjecture. Besides, I agree with Yeargdribble that this guys "history" lesson leaves out too many important factors that really helped cause the Crash.

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I read GamesRadar articles quite often, and one thing you have to realize is even the serious articles are meant to be slightly humorous in nature. It was much more of a 'what if' for fun than something you would base an investment portfolio on.

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Will Motion Control cause a game industry crash? No. Why? cause the Crash of 83 didn't have a foundation of gamers who grew up on video games, it was simply just a fad for people in the 70's and early 80's but Nintendo saved it from "Macarena obscurity" by having good business sense and a decent piece of hardware.

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"Crumple", not crash. The main idea was that the rapid industry growth into the 'casual' market, advanced primarily by motion control, is not sustainable. Or in other words 'casual' gaming is a bubble market that will soon see a market correction, resulting in an overall decrease in total value of the video game industry.

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Honestly, I do feel the game industry might be ready for a good old fashioned slump and recession (we might even be in it now) cause shovelware is not a Wii problem, its an industry problem cause all the consoles have shovelware.

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The main issue is how well shovelware sells on the Wii in comparison to 'good' games. (I'm using so many quotation marks in this post I feel I should be translating FFT or something) Shovelwar is an inevitability for everything. TV, Books, Movies, it all happens. The main issue is making sure the standout products get the money they deserve.

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Can we say the same of Halo, GTA, Gran Turismo, Smash Bros., God of War, and Zelda. Are they all completely original redesigns of their predecessors that are continuously pushing the industry forward or simply the original titles with a few extra features and some better graphics?

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I personally don't think that original titles should be offering massive innovations. I like the Mega Man model quite a bit myself. The Mega Man X series, though very similar in nature, offered several different gameplay cornerstones. Adding stuff like the slide and charge in previous MM installments improved the games (imo) but dashing and wall jumping completely changed many aspects of the gameplay. Creating a new series that was still Mega Man was, in my mind, the perfect way to go about something like this. I don't see anything wrong with laying down an old series and starting on something fresh is the gameplay paridigms around which it is based are no longer relevant in the current market. Another example is FFT. The game still felt very 'Final Fantasy-ey', but it would not have been appropriate to continue the main series on as such. A spin of was an excellent way to go. As MMX has shown you can have entire spin off series that continue off in place of the main branch.

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Now this is not to say I feel the Wii has been a success, if I was going to compare the Wii technology to an era of gaming, its when the CD peripherals first showed up in the early 90's. Sega CD had some good games but a lot of it was crap and we never even saw some the satellite gaming peripheral for Nintendo which also featured mostly shovelware crap as well. This is how I view it all. Its not that Motion Controls is bad for gaming (its actually been good since its brought in a whole new group of gamers who actually graduate into the more socially accepted consoles from the gamer society and with that bring in new fresh perspectives of how games should be done) but rather it may have come a bit too early for the hardcore to appreciate. If the casual bubble crashes, Motion control might fade into a hobby market but in another ten years, someone else may pick up the technology and finally show us old people how it ought to be done.

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That is the thing, I am not seeing this transition from Casual Wii to bigger an better things gaming wise. Everyone I know who owns one keeps it in the closet and breaks it out for :bou::bou::bou::bou:s and giggles once and a while. This idea that casuals will come in the door and become interested in the more conventional gaming seems to be wishful thinking. At best. If this were true then titles like Muramasa that are receiving a great amount of industry attention wouldn't be doing so poorly.

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So for the ADD crowd... I'll summarize by saying: stop having a damn short attention span and read the whole thing you silly goose.

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All you tl:dr people suck.

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Has the PS3 and 360 really brought in a new generation of gaming, or has it just done what's been going on since the 3D revolution of Sega Saturn, PS1 and the N64, re-releasing those generations of gaming. Sure Sandbox gaming became more mainstream as well as other genres like RPGs and FPS but they are hardly innovative as much as its just simply becoming mainstream, as many of those genres existed before the 3D revolution. (The major exception of course being LittleBigPlanet)

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You don't have to create a new genre to innovate. The existence of Portal alone proves that. But while we're on the topic of how much innovation in terms of gameplay these companies have brought to the table, LBP is more than Nintendo has done in 14 years. The fact that we can also credit Sony with Ico, Shadow of the Colossus, producing Heavy Rain, Echochrome, and probably more that I'm forgetting makes Sony the most innovative console manufacturer out there as far as I'm concerned. If you want to talk about a company who rides the minimal changes sequel wave for all it's worth, Nintendo would be the poster company for it if Activision and EA didn't exist. They haven't made a new game since the N64 died.

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I have never been an FPS fan, the genre is not something that appeals to me at all. Yet with tweaks that were all told relatively minor in the grand scheme of things Borderlands and MAG were able to deliver an experience that I, a decided non FPS gamer, enjoyed thoroughly. The idea that video games have to create a new genre every decade seems a little... ambitious.

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Originally Posted by Vivi22

You know, I agree with you a lot of the time about a lot of things WK, but seriously, I have to wonder if you really played MGS4 when you say something like this. Did it change a lot in terms of features? Not really, but those few changes lead to a massive upheaval of the MGS game design. Not only was it now possible to sneak through an area (and sneaking was quite a bit different compared to MGS), but you could run and gun quite viably, you could side with one faction early on or neither. The games are massively different in terms of gameplay and MGS4 offered a variety of viable play styles that not only worked, but all worked pretty much perfectly. I have to say that it's by and large one of the most brilliantly designed titles I've ever played and a far cry from it's PSOne predecessor.

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Its okay, if we agreed all the time we would never have interesting conversation now would we? ;)

Yes I did play through the game but to be fair to MGS4, I only played it once (I now actually own a PS3 and the game so I'll play it again, maybe I'll find what I was missing and fall in love with the game) but I found it kinda underwhelming and personally I do sometimes wonder if its simply just me. I'm a hopeless fanboy for MGS and I will not deny that even if I didn't like the game I would have a hard time actually saying it. Despite my bitter post, I actually do like MGS4 but I really felt that many of the new elements simply didn't work as well as they sounded on paper or simply just destroyed the games balance for me. So I feel that MGS4 took a few steps back in some ways and simply misfired on others but at the same time this could also be a simple old gamer talk of "they changed it now it sucks" talking and that just goes to show you that despite my idealism I can still be counted as to adding to the problem of the industry.

I chose MGS4, not because I feel its a great example as much as its one of the few examples I have extensive knowledge of. Seriously I could easily hit Nintendo's major franchises as well and I probably should since my post came off a bit "Nintendo fanboy" despite not liking the company personally.

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Adding in poor motion control that at it's best mimics a computer mouse reasonably well and at it's worst is a laggy inaccurate pile of waggle doesn't lead to more innovative games. The fact that 95% of games don't use it well and the other 5% would be better off with a traditional controller or mouse kind of proves it. I honestly can't think of a single Wii game that really impressed me in terms of motion control implementation. Are they more accessible for those who are afraid of a lot of buttons? Sure. Do they offer any experiences that can't be done just as well with other control methods? Not yet, and I'd say never if they continue in their current form.

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This is my point though, its not that motion controls have proven themselves wonderfully, they frankly haven't and I even said in my original post that Nintendo pretty much sprung this technology about a decade too soon but I feel that just because its bad now doesn't mean it should be left on the waste side and I feel that its kinda silly to say its not going to work ever. We're talking about bringing in a new way to interact and play with games, damn straight its going to be buggy and frankly crappy but that doesn't mean it may never amount to something. I just feel that too many gamers are shutting themselves off from different experiences by giving up on stuff way too early. I think motion controls might have a future in gaming. Will it replace the standard controller? Not very likely but I can see it being a feature built into future console generations, especially something like Natal.

I also feel that they create a level of immersion that is lacking in standard controllers. There is just something a bit more satisfying about swinging the Wii mote to instigate the final kill in No More Heroes that I don't feel a standard controller could ever have given me. I also found my time playing Z:TP on the Wii was immensely more fun and satisfying for me than on the Gamcube where I often felt the controller got in the way of making the game flow better. Motion controls to me, work alot like peripherals like steering wheels and band sets. They work great for the games they are built for properly but I don't see myself trying to play Super Street Fighter IV with the Rock Band drum kit just as I don't necessarily feel I may ever use a motion controller to play a turn based RPG.

I feel motion controls can have a place in gaming but I don't necessarily feel it will become the standard. I seriously doubt standard controllers will disappear until gaming becomes us jacking our brains into a terminal and even then I'm sure someone's going to keep making games that create a virtual standard controller.

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You don't have to create a new genre to innovate. The existence of Portal alone proves that. But while we're on the topic of how much innovation in terms of gameplay these companies have brought to the table, LBP is more than Nintendo has done in 14 years. The fact that we can also credit Sony with Ico, Shadow of the Colossus, producing Heavy Rain, Echochrome, and probably more that I'm forgetting makes Sony the most innovative console manufacturer out there as far as I'm concerned. If you want to talk about a company who rides the minimal changes sequel wave for all it's worth, Nintendo would be the poster company for it if Activision and EA didn't exist. They haven't made a new game since the N64 died.

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Wow, I seriously need to re-read some of my longer posts...

I won't argue that Nintendo has done very little in terms of innovating their major franchises and yes, Sony is definetly one of the better companies out there when you start to stack together their indiviadual games but I ask you where does their console design lead the industry? Heavy Rain for example is basically the PC adventure games of old (its been called the spiritual successor to Indigo Prophecy) it is hardly dependent on the technology of Sony or the PS3 to be the game it is. Hardware is getting more powerful but I don't feel like its been making games better overall. Why do I have to wait an entire console generation to get two games like Ico and Shadow of the Colossus when the shelves are lined up with dozens of samey type games. This was what I was trying to point out with my second response about gamers sending the wrong message to developers, when you start to stack the best games from each console and the rare awesome gems like Ico, Okami, Katamari Damacy, and other great titles, you quickly realize they only make up a small percentage of the whole gaming library.

Every console is filled with lost gems and games that got credit for how good they were long after they were released. We as gamers want stuff like Heavy Rain, LBP, NMH, and Ico but at the same time, we are faster to spend our money on the new Madden, Zelda, and Final Fantasy and even quicker to turn around and say how much those games we bought suck because it was either too different or felt like a rehash of the older versions. I feel we are sending very mixed signals here and I feel we tie developers hands especially considering costs of big AAA titles is getting more expensive. Most of the innovative and interesting titles are either coming out of the indie scene or are fun pet projects made for cheap by companies to be sold on DLC.

I think I lost my point somewhere around paragraph 2... :( Overall, I agree that Nintendo is just as guilty as the rest.

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Wii Fit isn't a game. There I said it.

Calling Wii Music a game is a bit of a stretch too though you could make a better case for it than Wii Fit.

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Exercise is good for you :colbert:

My point is that motion controllers and motions detection technology has some interesting applications that I feel we can explore to make better games. Nintendo talked about creating a heart monitoring sensor for the Wii to go with Wii Fit but I was thinking how neat it would be to use the technology to use your heart rate to calculate game flow. Imagine a horror game that actually based how much action and tension happened by basing it on your pulse? Food for thought...

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I read GamesRadar articles quite often, and one thing you have to realize is even the serious articles are meant to be slightly humorous in nature. It was much more of a 'what if' for fun than something you would base an investment portfolio on.

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Meh, I just got bored reading it.

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"Crumple", not crash. The main idea was that the rapid industry growth into the 'casual' market, advanced primarily by motion control, is not sustainable. Or in other words 'casual' gaming is a bubble market that will soon see a market correction, resulting in an overall decrease in total value of the video game industry.

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I understand the main article, I think I mostly talked about crash cause he kept bringing up the Crash of 83. I actually agree his doomsday scenario is very plausible.

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The main issue is how well shovelware sells on the Wii in comparison to 'good' games. (I'm using so many quotation marks in this post I feel I should be translating FFT or something) Shovelwar is an inevitability for everything. TV, Books, Movies, it all happens. The main issue is making sure the standout products get the money they deserve.

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I agree but as I began to point out in my response to Vivi22 not many of the high profile titles on other consoles ever got their fare due. Ico, Vagrant Story, Rez, Okami, Beyond Good and Evil are considered by most of the gaming community and some of the industry as excellent titles but all of them were underwhelming in the market. Hell just looking at Clover Studios career or Prince of Persia franchise you see that very few great games actually become smash hits in terms of sales. Some of the best RPGs I've ever played are made by companies that are not known for making games from the genre.

Yes, Muramasa, Mad World, and NMH had underwhelming sales on the Wii but Nintendo's mainline products are still going strong and Metroid: the Other M is one of the more anticipated titles for the console. Its not that the Wii's shovelware is drowning out the good games as much as this is the problem of all the Nintendo consoles since the N64, third party games sell terribly cause Nintendo fans seem to only want to play the main franchises. About the only shovelware title that has sold remarkably well on the system is Wii Play and that's because it was bundled with an extra Wii mote and about ten bucks cheaper to buy than the standalone.

A quick look at the top ten best selling games for the platform shows the age old problem with Nintendo that Vivi22 pointed out which is that all of them are 1st party games. I wouldn't be surprised if the top 20 were all exclusively Nintendo made. I don't really believe that the casual gamers are actually opening their wallets for every Wii sport clone on the shelves. Nintendo is just doing its old song and dance.

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I personally don't think that original titles should be offering massive innovations. I like the Mega Man model quite a bit myself. The Mega Man X series, though very similar in nature, offered several different gameplay cornerstones. Adding stuff like the slide and charge in previous MM installments improved the games (imo) but dashing and wall jumping completely changed many aspects of the gameplay. Creating a new series that was still Mega Man was, in my mind, the perfect way to go about something like this. I don't see anything wrong with laying down an old series and starting on something fresh is the gameplay paridigms around which it is based are no longer relevant in the current market. Another example is FFT. The game still felt very 'Final Fantasy-ey', but it would not have been appropriate to continue the main series on as such. A spin of was an excellent way to go. As MMX has shown you can have entire spin off series that continue off in place of the main branch.

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I think there are many ways to innovate but lately it feels sometimes that companies are going too slow out of fear of losing their audiences.

My point here really wasn't to slam all the other consoles and make Nintendo out as a hero rather as I was trying to point out that instead of just relegating motion controls as a gimmick, I feel we should look at it as an opportunity to experience something new. I'm not saying motion controls should be integrated into the major franchises either.

I just feel that this technology would allow game designers to think outside of the box and help them become a bit more daring in more established mediums. I think its interesting to see if motion controls, Virtual reality, and other non-mainstream notions of technology can be sued to create new gaming experiences. We'll always have the standard consoles and stuff but I feel it would be silly of us as gamers to ignore other possibilities for the medium. That was really my point, but I got off topic ion some weird Sony, Microsoft, Squenix, MGS4 rant. I guess my brain is still fried from finals... :cry:

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That is the thing, I am not seeing this transition from Casual Wii to bigger an better things gaming wise. Everyone I know who owns one keeps it in the closet and breaks it out for :bou::bou::bou::bou:s and giggles once and a while. This idea that casuals will come in the door and become interested in the more conventional gaming seems to be wishful thinking. At best. If this were true then titles like Muramasa that are receiving a great amount of industry attention wouldn't be doing so poorly.

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I doubt will see it until another five or ten years later from now. This is a social change, it doesn't happen overnight you know. What I will say is that I've talked to lots of parents and many of them think games are violent and stupid but are utterly fascinated with the technology. Many of the professors I talk to in computer science and communication technologies are becoming more fascinated with gaming and a lot of it was because of the technology in the Wii and DS. I'm talking old guys who haven't touched a game since Pac-Man are intrigued by what Wii Fit and Wii Sports are doing in terms of technology and a lot of it is because of its social acceptance by people who are not technology hobbyist.

Gaming is becoming socially acceptable because all us young tykes were raised on them and now we've grown up but, I feel the Casual market is starting to bridge some gaps between the gamer generation and the oldbies who've been asking us to shut off the damn games and play outside. Even if the market bursts and implodes on itself, I feel its social impact will affect the industry for years to come.

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All you tl:dr people suck.

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Quoted for the truth :cool:

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I have never been an FPS fan, the genre is not something that appeals to me at all. Yet with tweaks that were all told relatively minor in the grand scheme of things Borderlands and MAG were able to deliver an experience that I, a decided non FPS gamer, enjoyed thoroughly. The idea that video games have to create a new genre every decade seems a little... ambitious.

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We don't need to make new genres, it would be a little interesting and its going to happen whether or not stuff like Rock Band and the Wii are successful. I just feel like its been awhile since I played something that really defined a genre or changed my perspective on gaming. I just feel that the established franchises are not really getting any better and though some interesting titles have been coming and going, none have really caught my eye.

I think my rant is partly due to how underwhelmed I am with the PS3. I've played the system off on and on since it came out, finally picked one up for myself a few months back, picked up a few titles I've been interested in and have not felt the desire to touch it since I finished FFXIII. Even going into game stores, I spend less time in the PS3 section cause there is very little in terms of games I want to own. I've played through MGS4 and despite my ranting, I really did like the game but I have no real motivation to go through it again and I have not felt a need to play the game since I finished it. I'm not sure what's up with me lately... :(

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Originally Posted by Wolf Kanno

Yes I did play through the game but to be fair to MGS4, I only played it once

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I wasn't really questioning whether you played it since I knew you had, only that it not changing much from MGS isn't the reaction I expect from someone who played the entire game at least once, let alone more times. My point was really only that I've never seen a game merge so many disparate play styles so well. I played through it several times like it was a third person shooter, a stealth game, siding with the various factions, etc. and each was a substantially different experience. You don't really get that in any game, so that it was done so well utterly floored me.

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Originally Posted by Wolf Kanno

I think motion controls might have a future in gaming. Will it replace the standard controller? Not very likely but I can see it being a feature built into future console generations, especially something like Natal.

I also feel that they create a level of immersion that is lacking in standard controllers. There is just something a bit more satisfying about swinging the Wii mote to instigate the final kill in No More Heroes that I don't feel a standard controller could ever have given me.

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I agree with this statement up until you mention Natal. Because honestly, the biggest reason I see motion controls never working in any current form that they exist in is because of a lack of sufficient physical feedback. Our bodies and brains expect physical feedback when making the motions required of us for the purposes games ask of us but we never get it. Physical feedback is an integral part in reacting to swords clanging together, steering a car, or dribbling a ball but we get none of that feedback from Natal and almost none from the Wii-mote.

I'll agree that the actual motions feel more natural and immersive, but that immersion has always been immediately broken for me because of the lack of physical feedback. Because without it, everything in Wii Sports was based as much on luck and randomly swinging the controller as anything else and Mario Kart Wii was utterly unplayable with the motion controls. I agree there's potential in some genres and game markets for motion control, but until they workout the problem of physical feedback I have no problem saying that I don't think it will ever reach it's potential.

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Originally Posted by Wolf Kanno

I won't argue that Nintendo has done very little in terms of innovating their major franchises and yes, Sony is definetly one of the better companies out there when you start to stack together their indiviadual games but I ask you where does their console design lead the industry? Heavy Rain for example is basically the PC adventure games of old (its been called the spiritual successor to Indigo Prophecy) it is hardly dependent on the technology of Sony or the PS3 to be the game it is.

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I disagree actually. Were the developers not able to utilize the technology to make Heavy Rain look as good as it did and build the atmosphere as well as they did I don't think it would have worked as well. Not that lesser hardware can't make immersive games, but I honestly think that the sheer realism of it's settings helped to elevate the immersive qualities inherent in the gameplay.

But for a much better example, I can really just name Portal. By no means is Portal a technical powerhouse, but it couldn't have been made ten years ago in the form it's in. Not only is there some complex physics going on with the portalless games anyway, but I don't think anything could have handled some of the workarounds they had to make to get the physics working through portals if they tried to do it ten years ago, and certainly not 15 or 20 years ago. And even if you don't think GTAIV is innovative (I don't think it is nor do I like it), but it's hard to say it didn't benefit from more power by creating a much more believable and immersive world. And a more recent example of Battlefield Bad Company 2; it literally wouldn't be the game it was without the massive environments, seamless environmental destruction and vehicles, all of which would be difficult or impossible to integrate so seamlessly on 5 year old hardware let alone ten year old hardware. I could probably come up with more examples of games that legitimately benefit from more power, but I just woke up and thinking is hard. :D

But really, I'm not trying to say that hardware is required to innovate, but it certainly removes barriers to innovation so developers can more easily realize their game whether it's an innovative masterpiece or an iterative step forward.

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Originally Posted by Wolf Kanno

This was what I was trying to point out with my second response about gamers sending the wrong message to developers, when you start to stack the best games from each console and the rare awesome gems like Ico, Okami, Katamari Damacy, and other great titles, you quickly realize they only make up a small percentage of the whole gaming library.

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I won't disagree with you on that, but given the rise of the indie scene I think we're actually able to see the second coming of more innovative game design since game development is so much more accessible. That said, when it comes to innovation on consoles, I really don't think we're any worse off now than we were even on the SNES as far as innovation. I mean a lot of great games came out in that era, but how many can you think of that were truly innovative and didn't just make incremental steps in already established genres? I'm having trouble thinking of many right now.

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Originally Posted by Wolf Kanno

I think my rant is partly due to how underwhelmed I am with the PS3. I've played the system off on and on since it came out, finally picked one up for myself a few months back, picked up a few titles I've been interested in and have not felt the desire to touch it since I finished FFXIII. Even going into game stores, I spend less time in the PS3 section cause there is very little in terms of games I want to own. I've played through MGS4 and despite my ranting, I really did like the game but I have no real motivation to go through it again and I have not felt a need to play the game since I finished it. I'm not sure what's up with me lately... :(

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I can't blame you for getting through FFXIII and not wanting to touch a console (any console). It's pretty easy to lose any desire to play games after too much time with that. :D

But the PS3 has some legitimately awesome and creative titles even if not all of them are over flowing with innovation. I'd be happy to make some recommendations if you'd like (though that's probably best left outside of the thread).

Also, Portal is free on the PC and Mac until the 24th. If you haven't already then get it.

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Originally Posted by VeloZer0

According to VG Chartz the sales are only 280,000. On an install base of almost 71 million.

The fact that it is a well respected game amongst the 'hardcore' game community and fails miserably on the Wii is exactly what I am talking about. (Anyone who reads and posts on sites about video games easily qualifies as hardcore for the purpose of this exercise)

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And the fault of this is all these "hardcore" gamers that bought multiple systems (like I did) but then they don't support the games that deserve it on the Wii, like Muramasa. Don't bring Madworld into it, because that game wasn't worth the full asking price from any review. However the budget price helped it sell decently, because otherwise it wasn't worth it.

Essentially, people complain about no hardcore games on the Wii, but then they don't but the games on the Wii.

Oh, and Monster Hunter Tri had sales of 1.37 million, last update Jan 21st... before it was even released in the US.
(As a reference, Tales of Symphonia sold 1.1 million on the GC, and was considered a huge success)

THE JACKAL

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Originally Posted by ljkkjlcm9

Essentially, people complain about no hardcore games on the Wii, but then they don't but the games on the Wii.

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I'm not going to argue this point really because neither of us would have any real data on the breakdown of Wii owner demographics. But I do want to say something perhaps as a bit of food for thought; have you ever considered that the inability for so-called hardcore games to sell may say more about the kind of people who bought the Wii than it does hardcore gamers.

I complain about the lack of hardcore games on the Wii myself, but I also don't own one, largely because there's nothing there that appeals to me enough to buy the console for it especially given my hatred for the controller. It's sort of a chicken and the egg thing since you can't bring in hardcore gamers without good hardcore games, but how do you justify making them if there's no perceived market there.

If I were going to blame anything for the lack of hardcore games and support from hardcore gamers though, I'd blame it on Nintendo seemingly turning their backs on hardcore gamers in a lot of ways. From the focus on easier to use motion controls and simpler games, to wave after wave of marketing targeting casual gamers, and endless amounts of shovelware getting a license to be released, I can't fault any hardcore gamer who passes on the Wii because they feel like Nintendo could care less about them.

EDIT!!: April sales for games were abysmal and analysts are baffled at this, maybe we're just playing the damn games you all urged us to buy instead of buying new ones to replace the ones we haven't even beaten yet!!!! Smurfers!!! I love it!

Wow, Wolf is back, I love it!!! And he got a PS3!!!

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Originally Posted by Wolf Kanno

The PS3, 360, and Wii from a gaming library standpoint, are little more than the Cube, PS2 , and X-Box with the same library of core games with new graphics. Could you really say MGS4 is radically different from MGS1? Especially when you compare them to their impacts on the console and the gaming industry? Not really. MGS4 is simply MGS1 with better graphics and controls and a few "gimmicky" abilites that MGS1 lacked but did MGS4 really radically change the series? No. Can we say the same of Halo, GTA, Gran Turismo, Smash Bros., God of War, and Zelda. Are they all completely original redesigns of their predecessors that are continuously pushing the industry forward or simply the original titles with a few extra features and some better graphics?

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I'm going to try to keep this short and on point since you and Vivi got through a lot of it.

I can just ask - how many of those games have you actually played? I would absolutely say God of War is different - not just with the stuff going on in the scene, but an item system, weapon diversity, ways to manipulate enemies, and overall deeper combat which the series simply didn't have. A Gran Turismo demo/contest was released on PSN which showcased the new driving physics, and for a game which prided itself on realistic driving for over a decade, it did feel very different. Not to mention cockpit view which you will be able too look around with using the EyeToy :eek:

I can't comment on the 360, but there's been a lot of innovation on the PS3 among, but definitely within genres. MAG didn't just increase the player count, we've "finally achieved real time battlefield control..." (<- SNAKE!) with a tiered leadership infrastructure. Demon's Souls undoubtedly innovated the Action-RPG genre with the use of Havok physics but moreoso online play I haven't really seen anywhere else. Valkyira Chronicles did something for SRPG's which is a wonder it hasn't before. LBP's combination of an in-game editor and community incorporation of it in-game and out-of-it created something genuinely new.

We could even go into FPS like Bad Company 2 deconstructing the entire concept of the action set piece, or how Killzone 2 really changed how I think about FPS. I've been on BC2, MW2, and MAG lately, but going back to Killzone 2 was a painful experience because it plays so differently, it's something that hasn't been done before and it could not have been done without greater processing power of the PS3.

And while you said Heavy Rain is just like the old point-and-click adventures (it is) it's also similar to many different things, it's hard to say exactly what it is.

Have you played Valkyria Chronicles, Demon's Souls and Heavy Rain? If you have I'd really like to know your thoughts on them, just in general, but also for the sake of this thread.

Warning: I'm working on three hours of sleep and dealing with my bitch of a boss all day, so my mind is gone right now but I'll do my best. Forgive my spelling and grammar mistakes I simply just don't care to fix any of them right now ( how's that any different whenever you do post WK?) Quiet you!!!

Rambling aside...

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Originally Posted by Vivi22

I wasn't really questioning whether you played it since I knew you had, only that it not changing much from MGS isn't the reaction I expect from someone who played the entire game at least once, let alone more times. My point was really only that I've never seen a game merge so many disparate play styles so well. I played through it several times like it was a third person shooter, a stealth game, siding with the various factions, etc. and each was a substantially different experience. You don't really get that in any game, so that it was done so well utterly floored me.

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I felt the introduction of other game elements just didn't work for me, the gaining the rebels trust element always felt incredibly underwhelming and easy to garner and exploit, not to mention is sometimes made the game a bit too easy, as I was able to walk out in the open in some battlefields with little to worry about outside of stray fire.

I also felt the better emphasis on "run and gun" play destroyed the importance of stealth cause not making a mistake no longer held the same weight it did in previous installments. Granted its been going that way since MGS2 and lord knows my fave entry MGS3 made dealing with enemies much easier. I just kept getting annoyed that I would get caught and quickly kill the swarms of enemies coming after me and was even eventually able to just walk through areas guns of blazing. Stealth now sorta lost its importance cause its not like guns and ammo are not easy to come by in the game.

It was just one of those things where I felt the blending of genres didn't work for me. The boss battles were still MGS epic but the different stages never once impressed me or stood out with the exception of Prague which forced the player to do some kick ass film noir style stealth.

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I agree with this statement up until you mention Natal. Because honestly, the biggest reason I see motion controls never working in any current form that they exist in is because of a lack of sufficient physical feedback. Our bodies and brains expect physical feedback when making the motions required of us for the purposes games ask of us but we never get it. Physical feedback is an integral part in reacting to swords clanging together, steering a car, or dribbling a ball but we get none of that feedback from Natal and almost none from the Wii-mote.

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Let me clarify with Natal, its gaming application is debatable at this point but will find out once it actually launches but looking at just tech demos, I feel the technology has at least everyday applications as well, and part of me would be just stoked to see gaming create a technology that has everyday use. I like the idea of switching on consoles by motion and voice recognition, it utterly appeals to the little kid in me who grew up watching Star Trek: The Next Generation :D

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I'll agree that the actual motions feel more natural and immersive, but that immersion has always been immediately broken for me because of the lack of physical feedback. Because without it, everything in Wii Sports was based as much on luck and randomly swinging the controller as anything else and Mario Kart Wii was utterly unplayable with the motion controls. I agree there's potential in some genres and game markets for motion control, but until they workout the problem of physical feedback I have no problem saying that I don't think it will ever reach it's potential.

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Most Wii titles (maybe not Wii sports but certainly Zelda and NMH) actually do give a bit of force feedback to the player by using the Rumble technology we've all loved since the PS1 days. Most death blows and certain movements do have a bit of force feedback and it was actually Miyamoto who said Natal would fail cause it didn't have force feedback. I was completely blown away when my Wii mote started to ring in NMH cause an NPC had called my character and the game asked me to use it as a cell phone while I walked over to the stages boss. All the dialogue came exclusively through the Wii mote itself and I just thought to myself "Well aren't you a clever d$%@". Its been crap like that that has made me a little less skeptical about the Wii, and see it more as missed development opportunity.

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I disagree actually. Were the developers not able to utilize the technology to make Heavy Rain look as good as it did and build the atmosphere as well as they did I don't think it would have worked as well. Not that lesser hardware can't make immersive games, but I honestly think that the sheer realism of it's settings helped to elevate the immersive qualities inherent in the gameplay.

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While I agree that the level of detail adds depth to this particular style of game it doesn't change the fact it could have been exclusively a PC title. would also argue that the detail adds depth for its style but I wouldn't say its impossible to recreate a game like this from slightly older technology. The adventure game scene on the PC is filled with emotional roller coaster titles and only a few of them actually utilize realism on a scale similar to Heavy Rain while others utilize more surreal and extravagant art styles.

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But for a much better example, I can really just name Portal. By no means is Portal a technical powerhouse, but it couldn't have been made ten years ago in the form it's in. Not only is there some complex physics going on with the portalless games anyway, but I don't think anything could have handled some of the workarounds they had to make to get the physics working through portals if they tried to do it ten years ago, and certainly not 15 or 20 years ago. And even if you don't think GTAIV is innovative (I don't think it is nor do I like it), but it's hard to say it didn't benefit from more power by creating a much more believable and immersive world. And a more recent example of Battlefield Bad Company 2; it literally wouldn't be the game it was without the massive environments, seamless environmental destruction and vehicles, all of which would be difficult or impossible to integrate so seamlessly on 5 year old hardware let alone ten year old hardware. I could probably come up with more examples of games that legitimately benefit from more power, but I just woke up and thinking is hard. :D

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I m not saying that some incremental technology improvement are poor means of building games, rather I was saying that it shouldn't be a bad thing to explore new ways to play video games with new technology and really that's what Portal is, its not as elaborate as a new console with a specific controller but it utilized a new technology from a Physics engine that was built. So this goes in a lot of different directions really. Better hardware is not a bad thing, Im just annoyed with what feels like a slow growth rate of interesting games. Portal itself is a PC title and that in itself is an industry that's been making improvements on physics engines and stage layout for nearly fifteen years. The technology that made it came from a terribly slow process which is not a bad thing at all, I'm just saying that we'll never see the next gaming revolution like the 3D one at this pace.

I can't comment on all the FPS (or 3PS) titles cause frankly my issue with them is the same as yours with Motion Controllers, I get no real force feedback and the controller gets in the way of the simplicity of using guns (this is coming from someone who use to regularly shoot real firearms). Obviously, I don't play them and very few have ever caught my attention let alone hold it. This sorta alienates me from a good 3/4ths of the market it seems.

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But really, I'm not trying to say that hardware is required to innovate, but it certainly removes barriers to innovation so developers can more easily realize their game whether it's an innovative masterpiece or an iterative step forward.

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I completely agree with this but I sometimes feel that hardware both hinders and helps innovation. For every Portal, there is and army of samey WWII/space marine shooters, for every No More Heroes, there is an army of "Party Games" for the Wii, for every Halo, there is a mountain of better games (Hey, I'm allowed to slam Microsoft and Halo is just too easy...) I guess I'm ranting at the mountain of developers who lack imagination and are quick to make something pretty with little substance or cutesy and simple with no depth or skill required.

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I won't disagree with you on that, but given the rise of the indie scene I think we're actually able to see the second coming of more innovative game design since game development is so much more accessible. That said, when it comes to innovation on consoles, I really don't think we're any worse off now than we were even on the SNES as far as innovation. I mean a lot of great games came out in that era, but how many can you think of that were truly innovative and didn't just make incremental steps in already established genres? I'm having trouble thinking of many right now.

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I'm kinda hoping but I sometimes fear its going to be something that mostly stays in the realm of downloads and never make the major leaps into the consoles themselves. I feel this way about the handheld market as well cause I've been more impressed with stuff on the DS and PSP tin terms of creativity and just being really fun than on the consoles as of late yet I get frustrated that people like Square-Enix can release tripe like XIII for the consoles when they are releasing stuff like The World Ends With You, Song of Summoner, and surprisingly for me, Dissidia.

As foir the SNES, this sorta also brings me back to my point, the SNES was a great system and I love it but let's face it, it was the NES bigger and better. The 3D revolution came along and we were all wowed in the mid 90s. The generation that followed (Gamecube and Playstation 2) then became the new SNES/Genesis era with consoles that were basically the old consoles but better. Now we're in "the next generation" (sadly not Star Trek) and despite being quite a few years into I feel like its just a rehash of the last generation, on all consoles even. I guess I just feel ready for the next big thing and even though its not in the stars for motion controls, I feel it could have a powerful impact on the industry.

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I can't blame you for getting through FFXIII and not wanting to touch a console (any console). It's pretty easy to lose any desire to play games after too much time with that. :D

But the PS3 has some legitimately awesome and creative titles even if not all of them are over flowing with innovation. I'd be happy to make some recommendations if you'd like (though that's probably best left outside of the thread).

Also, Portal is free on the PC and Mac until the 24th. If you haven't already then get it.

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I didn't realize how much that game pissed me off until I had some time away from it and truly, I really did try to like it. I don't necessarily like coming off as the old guy who whines about the "good old days" but no, that game was just bad...

I've picked up Disgaea 3, MGS4, and Fallout 3 for the PS3 and I look forward to picking up Demon's Soul, Super Street Fighter 4, and Valkyrie Chronicles. The problem is my PS3 wish list is in direct conflict with the games I want for the DS and PSP that are coming out this summer and lord knows I still need to play through the crap load of PS2/GBA/DS/PSP games I've been collecting for the last year or two, so I've got a busy gaming schedule it seems... :eep:

You'll have to PM me where to get Portal cause I would enjoy playing it though I doubt my PC is up to spec cause it is in fact pretty old now that I think about it.

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Originally Posted by Bolivar

Wow, Wolf is back, I love it!!! And he got a PS3!!!

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Finals kicked my ass this semester so I blame them on my incoherent ramblings in this thread. I really think I should have taken another week off to unwind before coming back here. :screwy:

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I'm going to try to keep this short and on point since you and Vivi got through a lot of it.

I can just ask - how many of those games have you actually played? I would absolutely say God of War is different - not just with the stuff going on in the scene, but an item system, weapon diversity, ways to manipulate enemies, and overall deeper combat which the series simply didn't have. A Gran Turismo demo/contest was released on PSN which showcased the new driving physics, and for a game which prided itself on realistic driving for over a decade, it did feel very different. Not to mention cockpit view which you will be able too look around with using the EyeToy :eek:

I can't comment on the 360, but there's been a lot of innovation on the PS3 among, but definitely within genres. MAG didn't just increase the player count, we've "finally achieved real time battlefield control..." (<- SNAKE!) with a tiered leadership infrastructure. Demon's Souls undoubtedly innovated the Action-RPG genre with the use of Havok physics but moreoso online play I haven't really seen anywhere else. Valkyira Chronicles did something for SRPG's which is a wonder it hasn't before. LBP's combination of an in-game editor and community incorporation of it in-game and out-of-it created something genuinely new.

We could even go into FPS like Bad Company 2 deconstructing the entire concept of the action set piece, or how Killzone 2 really changed how I think about FPS. I've been on BC2, MW2, and MAG lately, but going back to Killzone 2 was a painful experience because it plays so differently, it's something that hasn't been done before and it could not have been done without greater processing power of the PS3.

And while you said Heavy Rain is just like the old point-and-click adventures (it is) it's also similar to many different things, it's hard to say exactly what it is.

Have you played Valkyria Chronicles, Demon's Souls and Heavy Rain? If you have I'd really like to know your thoughts on them, just in general, but also for the sake of this thread.

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I think there is a difference to a game playing different and feeling different sometimes and perhaps my issue here is that I'm not seeing the "playing different" but rather mostly a "feels different" but then again, I have a terrible habit of being too analytical and a deconstructionist in my titles, and I'm still bitter about XIII. As stated above, I will probably never know about the FPS titles you've listed or even the driving titles cause I frankly don't play those genres much or anymore at all.

I feel there is changes going on in the industry, obviously, it seems like its mostly happening in the genres I don't play sadly enough. I guess it feels to me like its finally time for something big to happen instead of these small little bumps in the road. I'm ready for a change cause while the details are getting better and better I do still question whether we've actually bared witness to a radical change in any genre in the last fifteen years. Maybe I should throw in the towel and final accepted I've become too jaded but its hard to think you can't enjoy something you love cause that doesn't really seem to be my case. Whatever, I'm probably still just burnt out from school and work.

I'll probably start a thread or add to them once I plays some of the games you've listed. I've got a lot on my plate and I still need to play through a few classics I've picked up like Beyond Good and Evil and Silent Hill 2. Course Shinobi is also begging me to play and I do need to finish DQVIII before this decade runs out.

Bed is kind of trumping the long reply that this thread deserves, but there was one thing that just jumped out at me.
You talk about the NES->SNES just being a case of same but better, and PS1->PS3 the same phenomenon. I think that 'growing up' so to speak in the 2D to 3D revolution has made us a little spoiled in terms of what innovation to expect from gaming. The change from 2D to 3D could be seen as somewhat of a once in a lifetime deal. I think that expecting any sort of change and innovation comparable to what the mid to late 90s were is not fair to the present and future generation of games.

We were there, we enjoyed it, but we can't always hold the impact of adding a whole new dimension to games (literally) as something we continue to expect.

It is like someone who was around when they switched from black and white to color movies complaining the genre is experiencing stagnation. Only now, if 3D TV becomes popular, are we approaching a change of such magnitude.

Lol. Does anyone else find it funny that the graphical evolution would be from 2D to 3D to 3D?

If you don't, don't mind me, I'm exhausted.

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Originally Posted by Wolf Kanno

Let me clarify with Natal, its gaming application is debatable at this point but will find out once it actually launches but looking at just tech demos, I feel the technology has at least everyday applications as well, and part of me would be just stoked to see gaming create a technology that has everyday use. I like the idea of switching on consoles by motion and voice recognition, it utterly appeals to the little kid in me who grew up watching Star Trek: The Next Generation :D

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I'm not going to comment on everything you said right now but that has more to do with not outright disagreeing with you on any of it. I can't say you're outright wrong, I think we just at worst disagree in our opinions on some things and at best agree on a lot of it in some way. For the most part I actually think we're on the same page but looking at it from different angles.

But I do want to clarify just what I mean when I'm talking about physical feedback in motion controls. Yes, the Wii gives some, and far more than Natal ever could, in the form of both holding a physical object and some rumble. My problem is that neither of those comes close to replicating the physical experience my brain expects. Playing Mario Kart Wii with the motion controls drove me crazy because there was no feedback aside from visual to let me know how far I was really turning sometimes (and the motion lag only made the disconnect worse but that's another problem entirely). There's also the fact that I could keep turning even if I couldn't. If I were to side swipe a wall in my car, aside from feeling it through the body of the car, that steering wheel is going to jerk. Actual racing wheels do stuff like this really well, and my brain expects it when mimicking a familiar motion like that but it's not there and I'm immediately pulled out of it. I can extend the analogy to just about anything; if I'm simulating a sword fight with the Wii-mote it's not going to stop moving through the air when I hit my opponents sword, shield, body or whatever else. At best I'll get a rumble telling me I've connected, but I'm still following through with no resistance and I'm pulled out of the experience again. By trying to mimic familiar or expected situations realistically, it actually becomes less immersive (and accurate) because my brain isn't getting the feedback it not only expects, but requires.

I know others may be bothered by this to varying degrees, many obviously are less bothered by it than me, but I don't think I can jump on board the motion control train in games until they are able to get around this.

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I've picked up Disgaea 3, MGS4, and Fallout 3 for the PS3 and I look forward to picking up Demon's Soul, Super Street Fighter 4, and Valkyrie Chronicles. The problem is my PS3 wish list is in direct conflict with the games I want for the DS and PSP that are coming out this summer and lord knows I still need to play through the crap load of PS2/GBA/DS/PSP games I've been collecting for the last year or two, so I've got a busy gaming schedule it seems...

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I'm not really sitting by my PS3 collection right now and I've only been up for about an hour so god help me if I forget anything awesome. You're off to a good start already and I would have recommended Demon's Souls, SSF4, and Valkyria Chronicles anyway. The Uncharted titles are an easy recommendation for me. Great 3rd person shooters/adventure games, well written and just a lot of fun to play. I'm not sure if you are generally interested in 3rd person shooters since I know you don't play FPS games much, but I would recommend at least renting the first one (unless the demo is still on the PSN, in which case save your money). Little Big Planet is a no brainer. Also check out Blaz Blu, Super Street Fighter 2 Turbo HD Remix, Mega Man 9 and 10, Fat Princess is good fun as well, Heavy Rain, Echochrome Mirror's Edge if you haven't played it on another system (it's not really an FPS and is easily one of the most immersive titles I've ever played. Hell, it's one of the best games I've ever played. If you want innovation then this is a good one), and finally, try out Dead Space if you played and enjoyed RE4. It's not very scary if you ask me, but it was a better game than RE4 (which I despised).

I realize that's a lot of stuff to check out, especially with a full plate of other titles, but there's no harm in a list of titles to keep in mind for the future.

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Originally Posted by Wolf Kanno

Finals kicked my ass this semester so I blame them on my incoherent ramblings in this thread. I really think I should have taken another week off to unwind before coming back here. :screwy:

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I think a lot of us can relate to that, so don't worry, incoherent ramblings are when these discussions are at their best!!!

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I feel there is changes going on in the industry, obviously, it seems like its mostly happening in the genres I don't play sadly enough. I guess it feels to me like its finally time for something big to happen instead of these small little bumps in the road. I'm ready for a change cause while the details are getting better and better I do still question whether we've actually bared witness to a radical change in any genre in the last fifteen years. Maybe I should throw in the towel and final accepted I've become too jaded but its hard to think you can't enjoy something you love cause that doesn't really seem to be my case. Whatever, I'm probably still just burnt out from school and work.

I'll probably start a thread or add to them once I plays some of the games you've listed. I've got a lot on my plate and I still need to play through a few classics I've picked up like Beyond Good and Evil and Silent Hill 2. Course Shinobi is also begging me to play and I do need to finish DQVIII before this decade runs out.

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Definitely do that. BUT DAMN those are some serious games in the way, I can only imagine how much time you have left in DQVIII and if you're referring to the PS2's Shinobi, that's quite an experience all by itself.

As far as real radical change, I don't know if I would even go that far. But we went through the golden age of PSOne RPG's without any radical changes and that was fine with us... there's more of that going around and it seems your list of current and soon purchases cover a lot of that. I actually need to consider Disgaea myself...

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Originally Posted by VeloZer0

Bed is kind of trumping the long reply that this thread deserves, but there was one thing that just jumped out at me.
You talk about the NES->SNES just being a case of same but better, and PS1->PS3 the same phenomenon. I think that 'growing up' so to speak in the 2D to 3D revolution has made us a little spoiled in terms of what innovation to expect from gaming. The change from 2D to 3D could be seen as somewhat of a once in a lifetime deal. I think that expecting any sort of change and innovation comparable to what the mid to late 90s were is not fair to the present and future generation of games.

We were there, we enjoyed it, but we can't always hold the impact of adding a whole new dimension to games (literally) as something we continue to expect.

It is like someone who was around when they switched from black and white to color movies complaining the genre is experiencing stagnation. Only now, if 3D TV becomes popular, are we approaching a change of such magnitude.

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You know, I disagree but I can understand where people get this feeling. I just look at how far technology has gone in the last 50 years and I have a hard time believing its only going to get incrementally better than this, obviously, I do agree that perhaps in terms of audio and visuals we may have reached the zenith that people dreamed of years ago but this is why I'm looking at the next gaming revolution being about how we interact with gaming as opposed to a visual medium.

This is why I do feel motion controls might be that next step but really I would say its interactive gaming as a whole. I remember back in 06, when Sony was showing game previews for stuff on the PS3, they had a game where the player actually was holding a conversation with the characters in the game cause it was sorta of a Charlie's Angel kinda deal and I remember being pretty darn impressed at the idea of a game the player can actually interact with on a level that didn't feel totally artificial. This is the kind of stuff I think might be leading us to the next step in gaming. The Eye Toy to some feels like a gimmicky toy and though I've never personally had much enjoyment or interest in its titles, I do hope Sony continues to explore it cause it really feels like a piece of hardware that might take of if the right gaming idea came along with it.

I think believing that something like a gaming revolution on par with the 3D revolution of the 90's is a once in a lifetime deal just seems a bit silly (no offense) and really we can't say that motion controls are an utter failure and not the beginning of a new gaming epoch cause frankly, the DS and Wii are still kicking ass and everyone thought they would fail. Now Sony and Microsoft are trying to get in on the deal and this to me is a very good thing cause I do feel a major part of the Wii's problem is that it doesn't have any real competition. Its a gaming platform yes, but one that offers an experience the other two systems' can't really give you until now. So with that, I kinda hope Sony and Microsoft take the technology a bit more seriously and force everyone to bring their A-game.

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Originally Posted by Vivi22

But I do want to clarify just what I mean when I'm talking about physical feedback in motion controls. Yes, the Wii gives some, and far more than Natal ever could, in the form of both holding a physical object and some rumble. My problem is that neither of those comes close to replicating the physical experience my brain expects. Playing Mario Kart Wii with the motion controls drove me crazy because there was no feedback aside from visual to let me know how far I was really turning sometimes (and the motion lag only made the disconnect worse but that's another problem entirely). There's also the fact that I could keep turning even if I couldn't. If I were to side swipe a wall in my car, aside from feeling it through the body of the car, that steering wheel is going to jerk. Actual racing wheels do stuff like this really well, and my brain expects it when mimicking a familiar motion like that but it's not there and I'm immediately pulled out of it. I can extend the analogy to just about anything; if I'm simulating a sword fight with the Wii-mote it's not going to stop moving through the air when I hit my opponents sword, shield, body or whatever else. At best I'll get a rumble telling me I've connected, but I'm still following through with no resistance and I'm pulled out of the experience again. By trying to mimic familiar or expected situations realistically, it actually becomes less immersive (and accurate) because my brain isn't getting the feedback it not only expects, but requires.

I know others may be bothered by this to varying degrees, many obviously are less bothered by it than me, but I don't think I can jump on board the motion control train in games until they are able to get around this.

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I do feel a lot of it has to do with you personally, cause I can't say I've had the same issue with the possible exception of Mario Kart but it actually feels more like an arcade racer to me which also has shoddy unrealistic controls so I'm not as disturbed by it as you seem to be. Oddly enough, I tend to tense my muscles up and cut many of my blows short in anticipation of hitting something which helps create a sensation of feedback as though I'm knocking into things. Of course this is a habit from years of Tae Kwon Do where I actually had to visualize imaginary opponents or when I sparred against some of the younger kids in my class. Maybe that's what allows me to get so caught up in the games. I'm pre-conditioned :D

Also, despite the feedback not being realistic, I still argue that there is something abit more immersive about actually re-enacting the motions of the game when you do something. Mashing the X button on something like Elder Scrolls to do sword slashes feels really flat and distant to me, like I logically can't fathom one action leading to another action whereas slashing the sword in Zelda just feels a bit more satisfying. Fake yes, but I argue that its still a bit more satisfying when done correctly.

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I'm not really sitting by my PS3 collection right now and I've only been up for about an hour so god help me if I forget anything awesome. You're off to a good start already and I would have recommended Demon's Souls, SSF4, and Valkyria Chronicles anyway. The Uncharted titles are an easy recommendation for me. Great 3rd person shooters/adventure games, well written and just a lot of fun to play. I'm not sure if you are generally interested in 3rd person shooters since I know you don't play FPS games much, but I would recommend at least renting the first one (unless the demo is still on the PSN, in which case save your money). Little Big Planet is a no brainer. Also check out Blaz Blu, Super Street Fighter 2 Turbo HD Remix, Mega Man 9 and 10, Fat Princess is good fun as well, Heavy Rain, Echochrome Mirror's Edge if you haven't played it on another system (it's not really an FPS and is easily one of the most immersive titles I've ever played. Hell, it's one of the best games I've ever played. If you want innovation then this is a good one), and finally, try out Dead Space if you played and enjoyed RE4. It's not very scary if you ask me, but it was a better game than RE4 (which I despised).

I realize that's a lot of stuff to check out, especially with a full plate of other titles, but there's no harm in a list of titles to keep in mind for the future.

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I already have the Mega Man games for the Wii. Despite loving Guilty Gear and playing through this game a ton, I can't get into Blaz Blue for some reason. I may check out Mirror's Edge and Fat Princess and despite my dislike of FPS titles, I plan to check out Bio Shock as well cause the game has fascinated me since before its release. I may rent or borrow Dead Space cause it also caught my attention. I also hope to play through Assassin's Creed series. I may check out Uncharted as well. I need to hook up the PS3 and download some demos now that I have some free time to enjoy them. I am even willing to give GoW another try. I should also track down Folklore cause the premise of the game sounds interesting. hanks for the suggestions.

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Originally Posted by Bolivar

Definitely do that. BUT DAMN those are some serious games in the way, I can only imagine how much time you have left in DQVIII and if you're referring to the PS2's Shinobi, that's quite an experience all by itself.

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Sega knows how to make them and I love having tanks that bleed :D

I actually didn't get terribly far in DQVIII before Persona (PS1) and Dissidia came out and dropped the game into my bottom list. I have issues with the DQ series so this is sort of normal for me. Believe me, I have a ton more including Suikoden Tactics, God Hand, Front Mission IV, Sky Gunner, and not to mention I picked up my own copies of Sly Cooper and the Onimusha games. I took advantage of some great sales and literally doubled my PS2 collection in a few months and got some even weirder titles to boot.

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As far as real radical change, I don't know if I would even go that far. But we went through the golden age of PSOne RPG's without any radical changes and that was fine with us... there's more of that going around and it seems your list of current and soon purchases cover a lot of that. I actually need to consider Disgaea myself...

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I feel RPGs are also starting to evolve a bit. WRPG's are starting to use some forms of turn based combat hidden in their action oriented gameplay and story and character are starting to become more and more prevalent so it seems to me that what's been making the genre thrive recently has been them taking elements from JRPGs.

The few really good JRPGs I've played in the last ten years are either unique to themselves (Suikoden) or are starting to blend elements from other genres into themselves (Persona 3 and 4). If Nier and Persona 3/4 are any indication of things to come, I would imagine that this is what may happen to the JRPG in the future. They are going to start blending into other genres and they may also go the FFXII route and start utilizing more WRPG traits such as empowering the player more to affect the story. They just need to strike a fine balance so they don't feel too much like WRPGs and stick to a strong story. It will be a balancing act for awhile.

I also do recommend the Disgaea series, its a great SRPG series but what really sets it apart is just its wacky humor and wonderful cast of misfits. Its really hard to hate the casts of these games unless you are just one of those super serious types that can't stand a little wackiness and humor in your games. Even the combat takes part of the sheer absurdness factor of these games and its beautiful. Pick up a copy when you get the chance. I mean come on! Exploding Demon Penguins dood! (which reminds me, I need to pick up the Prinny game for the PSP)

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Originally Posted by Wulf

I actually didn't get terribly far in DQVIII before Persona (PS1) and Dissidia came out and dropped the game into my bottom list. I have issues with the DQ series so this is sort of normal for me. Believe me, I have a ton more including Suikoden Tactics, God Hand, Front Mission IV, Sky Gunner, and not to mention I picked up my own copies of Sly Cooper and the Onimusha games. I took advantage of some great sales and literally doubled my PS2 collection in a few months and got some even weirder titles to boot.

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That's a loooot of games, but I know what you mean, it's a good thing to expand your library, especially with weird games, I'm sure it's only going to get easier here on out for the PS2.

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As far as real radical change, I don't know if I would even go that far. But we went through the golden age of PSOne RPG's without any radical changes and that was fine with us... there's more of that going around and it seems your list of current and soon purchases cover a lot of that. I actually need to consider Disgaea myself...

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I feel RPGs are also starting to evolve a bit. WRPG's are starting to use some forms of turn based combat hidden in their action oriented gameplay and story and character are starting to become more and more prevalent so it seems to me that what's been making the genre thrive recently has been them taking elements from JRPGs.

The few really good JRPGs I've played in the last ten years are either unique to themselves (Suikoden) or are starting to blend elements from other genres into themselves (Persona 3 and 4). If Nier and Persona 3/4 are any indication of things to come, I would imagine that this is what may happen to the JRPG in the future. They are going to start blending into other genres and they may also go the FFXII route and start utilizing more WRPG traits such as empowering the player more to affect the story. They just need to strike a fine balance so they don't feel too much like WRPGs and stick to a strong story. It will be a balancing act for awhile.

I also do recommend the Disgaea series, its a great SRPG series but what really sets it apart is just its wacky humor and wonderful cast of misfits. Its really hard to hate the casts of these games unless you are just one of those super serious types that can't stand a little wackiness and humor in your games. Even the combat takes part of the sheer absurdness factor of these games and its beautiful. Pick up a copy when you get the chance. I mean come on! Exploding Demon Penguins dood! (which reminds me, I need to pick up the Prinny game for the PSP)[/QUOTE]

I actually don't know about the WRPG thing. Many fans of the original Fallout games complained about how Bethesda was taking a franchise they didn't originally work on and basically turn it into a shooter to sell to the console crowd. You can still melee the whole game (I think), and the auto-targeting system is more useful than actually trying to play it like a shooter, but still. Also, Mass Effect 2 nearly purged its RPG elements like it was a disease to the extent that it's mostly a shooter with dialogue trees. The Escapist actually has a funny ENN episode about it, I know you watch ZPunctuation, maybe you could check that out for FFVIII reference. It's just a phenomenon I see lately with First Person Shooters, Third Person Shooters, that companies have been making Western RPG's that look and play like First and Third Person Shooters.

I see what you're saying thought about JRPG's, Valkyria Chronicles kinda does that but I don't want to say anything because a) it's hard to explain and b) i don't want to augment your expectations.

I'm gonna give the Disgaea games a try hopefully sooner rather than later, the first two games are cheap digital on the Playstation Store for the PSP and I could always use new games on that. I wish the third one would go digital as well as they've done that with other PS3 games like Warhawk, SOCOM, and GT5Prologue, seems likt it would be a good candidate for that.