Headmaster Cid says they need a gunblade specialist on Seed.
So where did Squall learn to use a gunblade?
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Headmaster Cid says they need a gunblade specialist on Seed.
So where did Squall learn to use a gunblade?
From Balamb Garden. :bigsmile:
The training area
Games have plot holes? Alert the presses
Instructors at Garden have to be SeeD right? That is a bit of a plot hole.
He read tutorials on the internet!
A ghost possessed him. Every time he farts it is that ghost trying to escape :p
I taught him.
And now I will teach all of you!
It's not a plothole.Quote:
Originally Posted by Jibril
To Future Esthar: Squall could have easilly just learnt it - to use a Gunblade you need to first know how to use a sword, which he could have easily learned from BG or anywhere else. After that, all he needs to do is practice his timing with the trigger, and then he's also set. I want a Gunblade.
When the party was sent back to Laguna in the 'fight a dragon that's not Kiros, but actually a dragon' dream, he was using a gunblade. Furthermore, I believe he says "Gunblade, huh? I haven't used one of these since training."
So Galbadian soldiers apparently used to get trained on them, or at least had some experience with them. I say used to because from what we can tell during the party's D-District Prison break, the current generation of Galbadian soldiers have no clue about gunblades. To quote one of the guys that is guarding the weapons when Zell breaks out of the cell to find them - "So this is what a gunblade looks like?"
My best guess from all this is that gunblades once were a common weapon, so if Squall and Seifer wanted to learn how to use it, the material to guide them through it existed. It's just that in their generation, the popularity of the weapon had declined, probably to do with their difficulty to use (something I think that was mentioned early in the game, or perhaps in the manual).
Books, instruction manuals and a little self practice
Also maybe the last gunblade specialist who taught him died.
I think that sentence could mean quite a few things. It could just mean that there hasn't been a gunblade specialist for a while. Which would obviously fit in with the whole decline in popularity of the weapon.
EDIT: Cid says, "Finally, a gunblade specialist."
That weapons magazine durrrr.
My point is that he couldn´t have learned it at the Garden.
Cid´s actions seems to imply being a specialist on gunblade it´s not a criteria to become a Seed and therefore he can´t force one to become it.
Balamb Garden specializes on Para-magic,the general battle system and general military considerations.
It don´t teach you how to use a nunchaku or a rifle or a whip,etc...
At least there isn´t evidence on it.
BG studies each students inner ability and equip them acordingly.But they don´t get training on each of those.
Good point.Quote:
Instructors at Garden have to be SeeD right? That is a bit of a plot hole.
Who were the first instructors?
Esthar scientists?
Cid himself?
Maybe the first instructors were just to read books from Esthar to learn things.
Or maybe the Shumi´s have already this knowledge.
Care to elaborate this general battle system that they taught? :bigsmile:
Forget.Quote:
Care to elaborate this general battle system that they taught?
This thread was a mistake.
I realize the error on my reasoning now.
But don´t close it please.
Maybe someone would see some logic on it I missed.
Also Squall and Seifer can practice using gunblades in the training center and with each other. Practice makes perfect, and SeeD looks to use lots of on the job training. :p
Zell practices by getting through the mod for the hot dogs :bigsmile:
It's so simple this hurts my brain.
Just because he's a specialist of a weapon doesn't mean he is the only one who can use the weapon in Garden. Essentially troops often learn how to use different weapons. In medieval Europe the average foot soldier or archer was trained in the use of Bows, Crossbows, Sword and Hammer or Axe. He specialised in utilizing his bow so that the enemy didn't get close enough and sure he couldn't stand up against a swordsman in close combat unless he was lucky because his training wouldn't lead that way. However he could use the weapon he was given for melee combat if he needed to as a last resort.Quote:
Finally, a gunblade specialist!
Just because Squall is a specialist in the Gunblade it doesn't mean he is the only one to have used or learnt the use of the gunblade in the entirity of SeeD he would have learnt the basics from the instructors same as Seifer Almasy would have. However Squall and Seifer would probably have been left to find their own style and techniques wether from visiting masters or perhaps in the same wa as say Jeet Kun Do martial Artists learn the basics but develop their own martial art style from there on. As seen in the intro and everything about the two Gunblade masters we prominently see in the game (and Laguna in the "movie dream" against the Ruby Dragon. Though his style seems very reminiscent of Seifer's) fighting styles are very, very different from weapon design through to moveset. I'm led to assume that they developed their own fighting style after a core moveset was learnt.
I think general battle system should include weapon specialization shouldn't it? Or they battle using the mind? :bigsmile:
I dont think it was the word "specialist" we were argueing over but the word "finally" implying there werent any before himQuote:
Originally Posted by Iceglow
I'm sure I read or someone hypothesised that Seifer saw the movie Laguna was in and that's where he got the stance from. That's why he's got this whole Knight delusion going for him.Quote:
Originally Posted by Iceglow
Gunblades even by Laguna's time were no longer a common weapon to use, he is quotable as noting he hadn't used a gunblade since initial training for the Gabaldian Army years prior in the Ruby Dragon duel scene.
I would assume the weapon is too specialised to be of common use. A gunblade is extremely powerful in close combat as we know. However it is also apparently a very complex weapon, I have studied fencing irl and can say looking at the two main characters gunblades (Squall and Seifer) the grip would make wielding the blades difficult at best and something where technique would count along with raw strength rather than one or the other. A gunblade appears a tactical weapon and perhaps something of an eloquent one too. What other purposes the gunblade would serve in terms of tradition ect is not explained in game and I won't theorize about it either but there could be some traditions ect to their use.
Having a member of SeeD focus their attention on learning a weapon of such type is probably a first because most SeeD candidates would either cover the minimum knowledge test of the weapon and then move on to a simpler or more effective weapon. So therefore I would assume he was merely one of the first two students they had what actually dedicated themselves to learning the most powerful close combat weapon available but one of the most difficult to use. Of the two he was the only one to actually pass the exam and therefore became the first.
Or, if we take a look at the Garden timeline.
Garden idea given to Edea by time-compressed Squall when normal Squall was roughly 5/6ish I'd say.
Therefore, Garden itself would only have been in operation roughly 10ish years before the game commenced. So there haven't been too many originally trained SeeDs.
But when Garden was first started, there needed to be some instructors, who were probably hired after they left certain armies. One of them probably was himself a gunblade specialist.
So the relatively short time that Garden has existed, the difficulty in learning the weapon, and the fact that only Squall & Seifer had been at the Garden since they were very young provide clear reasons why Squall became the first specialist with the weapon.
Agree with Iceglow that they probably all got basic training with a wide variety of weapons. But don't think they self-taught themselves.
http://img12.imageshack.us/img12/7726/nautilus.gif
Dollet is where Squall's got his gunblade from. He learnt how to use it by himself, not Balamb Garden. BG was just his puppet; granting him the access to the training room to boost his skills. That's what schools are for.
It's logical. If Balamb Garden teaches students the Gunblade specialisation in general, then Squall/Seifer wouldn't be the only students that can use gunblades.
Proof?What Nautilus has to do with Gunblades?
I think he means that there are what seam to be Gunblades in the window?Quote:
Originally Posted by Future Esthar
I'm guessing he's self taught.
I mean, it seems like a complicated weapon, perhaps a weapon not many students can be bothered to learn how to use. Squall may have taken an interest in this old weapon and read and practiced with it. Because it's uncommon for this to happen, that's why Cid makes his remark.
Makes sense.
Look at the window in the picture. Inside the window, it displays gunblades...Quote:
Originally Posted by Future Esthar
And plus Nautilus is a type of fish, and if you recall, one of the Ultimecia's paintings is SWORDFISH. Since Nautilus displays Gunblades, it's likely that SWORDFISH is another name for Gunblade.
Nautilus/Gunblades/SWORDFISH would be a mere coincidence if only Squall and Ultimecia weren't connected to each other in any way what so ever.
Obviously. Otherwise, a LOT more students would have been taught how to use one provided by the Gardens and therefore, there would be a lot more students that use Gunblades as thier main weapons.Quote:
Originally Posted by Crop
Squall read the "Battle Series" of Timber Maniacs.
I know this forum is designed for some wild theories, but why could Squall not have learnt how to use the gunblade from an ex-military gunblade instructor that Cid would have had to have hired when he started Garden as at that point, there were no SeeDs in existence.
Why does he have to be self-taught? I know Garden is pretty messed up, with people allowed to slice their fellow students faces open in training, the headmaster giving graduates the devil in a lamp and allowing a strange creature to live in the basement, but seriously, I'm sure they sometimes do things simply.
Norg was a strange creature?
The way you talk seems to suggest he was a domesticated monster taken from the savanah.
My point is that it is unusual for a non-human character to be living in the basement of a school (and that was more of a joke than anything). I'm just saying that not everything in VIII has to be so overly complicated!Quote:
Originally Posted by Future Esthar
NORG feeeeeeeed on SeeeeeD. :D
The fact remains that Cid said "finally... a gunblade speciallist" which still implies that he is the first gunblade speciallist which implies there were none before him which implies he is self taught for atleast after the basics training.
Were the first SeeDs self-taught as well? I'm quite interested in how one teaches oneself to use a deadly weapon, but I've never tried.Quote:
Originally Posted by blackmage_nuke
Seriously, Cid must have hired instructors. One of them could've been a gunblade teacher. He taught Squall and Seifer. Much simpler solution.
Shumi´s are important on FFVIII because they evolve into different things including humans.
Cid ,Deling,Dobe,Caraway,Master Fisherman,Chocoboy,Man at Garden´s entrance,Orlan,Flower Lady on Winhill,Paint Kid on Dollet,His Grandpa,Zone,Watts,Martine and many others are Shumi´s.
...Where the hell did that come from!?!?!!?
Is that explained in the game, NO!
Is that a joke?Quote:
Originally Posted by Future Esthar
Anyway, I don't see what's so farfetched about Squall teaching himself to use the gunblade. It is only him and seifer that use them really anyway, and they obviously take a lot of time to train so over the years they could certainly have been able to use what is essentially mainly a sword in combat.
You got anything to support this claim? :bigsmile:Quote:
Originally Posted by Future Esthar
HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA x infinityQuote:
Originally Posted by ChristmasYou got anything to support this claim? :bigsmile:Quote:
Originally Posted by Future Esthar
It's hinted to. At least Garden related people like Cid - I have yet to find direct hints to the others, but it is an interesting concept.Quote:
Originally Posted by ChickenHeart
Doesn't Artisan say, if you finish the whole Shumi sidequest, that he's going to attempt to evolve into a human, which has never been attempted before?
I'll have to check that. If so it maybe a coincidence what I have seen.Quote:
Originally Posted by Rantzien
I actually would agree with the idea of Cid having hired instructors from the armies around the world, after the Gabaldian - Estharian sorceress war which is when Garden was formed there would be lots of soldiers out of work and trying to find a way of making a living. If I were setting up a mercenary organisation of highly trained specialists who have the hidden agenda of preventing another sorceress war before it can begin by means of a surgical strike. I certainly would hire instructors also note the faculty are not part of SeeD it is possible that older members of the faculty who certainly would have known about the development of Garden and it's foundations would have come from the original ex-military instructors.
As for Squall buying his gun-blade in Dollet? Serapy, there is no explanation or mention of Squall having brought his blade there in game, I'm prone to some assumptions in my own posts but lets face it considering weapon upgrades for Squall's gunblade can be brought in every weapon shop I would say it is equally possible his blade was brought from Balamb, Esthar, Gabaldia, or any other location in the game world. More likely considering his specialisation and the unique design of his and Seifer's base weapons I would wager their weapons were custom built by an artificer hired by Garden. Gun-blades might be specialist weapons for use but Just because they are losing popularity against swords and guns (which if I recall correctly was actually written in game) and other simpler to use weapons does not mean they are not for sale or used exclusively by Seifer and Squall in fact I would wager theres lots of former soldiers and such who still use the weapon for personal protection against monsters hence they're still on sale in shops.
Yes please provide me evidence that Cid, Deling, Dobe, Caraway, Master Fisherman, Chocoboy, Man at Garden entrance, Orlan, Flower, Lady on Winhill, Paint kid on Dollet, His Grandpa, Zone, Watts, Martine and many other human characters in the game are actually Shumi's this will be most amazingly astounding screenshots are neccessary for this to be proven I think.Quote:
Originally Posted by ChristmasYou got anything to support this claim? :bigsmile:Quote:
Originally Posted by Future Esthar
Yeah he does, however the only 2 known forms of Shumi evolution at present are: Moomba or Elder, those who fail to make it to Elder status end up as Moombas who unfortunately get abused by both the Estharian and Gabaldian governments.Quote:
Originally Posted by Rantzien
Look at the double President Deling.
He is a Shumi.
Gerogero is not a monster as he made you think.
He is a Shumi who left the village and in consequence his arms grow unproportional.
Evidence:The similarity between Gerogero and Shumi´s graphics.
Gerogero is a Shumi aberration.
He does look "Shumi-ish" so this works as a theory, if that's what it is.Quote:
Originally Posted by Future Esthar
And Norg is apparently going to evolve into something else. But apart from that, it's good to know that there are some people on the VIII board who like the simplest solution.Quote:
Originally Posted by Iceglow
Also, on your point on other people in the world using gunblades - Laguna (during the movie scene) says, on picking up a gunblade, something along the lines of: "It's been a while since I've used one of these."
You also mentioned that Garden was founded at the end of the Sorceress War, which I didn't think of. But there would be a lot of unemployed veterans at that point, so it is likely that more than a few ended up at Garden.
Oh, there's also the White SeeDs, which I'm trying to fit into this picture. They were the orphans before Squall and co, correct?
Ok, there's a very slim chance this may be true. But what about all those other random characters that you pulled from the air?Quote:
Originally Posted by Future Esthar
He looks waxy, not like a Shumi. However I will indulge your crackpot theory if you can provide screenshot evidence that ALL the people in your list are shumi's if you can provide me irrefutable evidence in screenshot form where the game explicitly states that they are Shumi's then I will accept it. If however as I know you will not be able to provide such evidence I will uphold my view that your theory is a crackpot one which is not only baseless but also unfounded.Quote:
Originally Posted by Future Esthar
From what I remember in the game there is a question posed to Squall during the Shumi village quest of "has NORG evolved yet?" I would assume that at the time he set the Garden up with Cid he actually hadn't evolved and was still a small Shumi. I assume for some reason he actually evolved in to an Elder and then unlike the elder of the village he had a life of corpulence and indulgence fed by the money he made from Cid and SeeD as a mercenary force making him much fatter.Quote:
Originally Posted by Champagne Supernova
The reference Laguna makes to having not used a gunblade in years is actually "I haven't used one of these since basic training" this implies he hasn't used one since he initially joined the army, However we cannot really narrow down this any further since the game never tells us when Laguna initially joined the military or how many years he was in it for though I would assume around 5 - 10 years since he is 27 during the flashbacks according to the manual. All we learn is that he is an officer in command of a squad but not high enough ranked to get a red uniform (I would suggest this indicated he was not a Commissioned Officer but an NCO instead, maybe a sargent) and that during the war he is pensioned off due to injury sustained along with his squad mates for their impromptu assault on the still being excavated Lunatic Pandora. We know that after this he went on a journey what lasted many months (possibly years even) eventually ending in the end of the Sorceress War at his hands by the imprisoning of Adel 17 years prior to the game events.
With the white SeeD or Edea's SeeD as they call themselves are never truly explained in the game. However Irvine helps the party remember Edea from the orphanage. Notice the fact that they remember Edea not Cid. Now at the end of the sorceress war is when we assume Garden got built. Now we know Laguna is Squall's father and Squall during the memories of the orphanage is placed aged 7 by the game. I believe there was a line about Squall joining the Garden after Quistis. This implies that the reason they remember Edea at the orphanage and not Cid is because Cid during this time had established Garden. Now with some deduction based on the fact that Laguna ends the Sorceress war and Squall is 7 during the Orphanage flashback we have 7 years during which Garden was established. Now, Edea gets given Ultimecia's powers at this point making her a sorceress. At around this time, Squall and any other remaining orphans at the orphanage are moved to Garden. The Orphanage is then abandoned for some reason. This implies Edea disappeared, as to who Edea's SeeDs (the white SeeDs) are or how their numbers are replenished as they get older is a mystery. The fact that they are welcome in Balamb Garden and that Cid knows of their existence and how to contact them, means I would say they're selected from candidates by Cid personally from across the 3 Gardens as to why they're considered Edea's SeeD I'm not sure of but until Edea appeared in Timber, she had never once cropped up in the news ect as a sorceress. I would say she was protected/imprisoned by the White SeeD on Cid's orders to ensure she couldn't cause trouble. The reason for his imprisoning/protecting Edea is simple she hadn't caused trouble at that point in time and being he was in love with her still I think it would've been hard for him to order her execution.
I bet a lot of monsters bear some similarities to Gerogero, so monsters evolve from Shumi? :bigsmile:
Dang how did this thread bypass me? I assumed it was old because it was FFVIII and it had 4 pages. On the discussion at hand I think it could be possibly three things.
1. Seifer and Squall were self taught (I think this is probably the most unlikely, because if you're in charge of a military, probably the one of the worst things you can do is allow the students to teach themselves)
2. Seifer and Squall were taught by an instructor who used a gunblade before. He might have not been a specialist, but he knew enough to teach them how to use it and they decided to stick with it.
3. The same as number 2 but the instructor was a specialist, but he was just never a member of SeeD.
Monsters come from the moon, Christmas :bigsmile:
Self taught imo. Seifer and Squall trained together to perfect techniques that drew from basic sword techniques (which they may have learnt from sword instructors at Garden). It wouldn't be that hard for someone who has those skills to adapt them to a similar weapon.
Iceglow, if you recall, Squall & Ultimecia travelled back to the Orphanage when there was a young (age indeterminate) Squall. Old Squall then gave Edea the idea behind Garden, SeeD etc, and how Ultimecia would try get her hands on Ellone. She then persuaded Cid to get the Garden thing going, while she sent the older orphans onto a ship with Ellone (these orphans then became the White SeeDs).
How they learnt to fight is a mystery, but it is possible that Edea herself taught them. Their sole purpose is to protect Ellone.
Quistis, Zell, Selphie & Irvine were all adopted. Squall and Seifer remained, but when Garden was opened, they were taken in there. Quistis had foster parents issues (perhaps that's why she likes a whip) and joined them shortly. Zell lived in Balamb and went to Garden as a school.
So, looking at this timeline, it would suggest that Garden itself can not be much more than 10 years old. It also suggests that Squall & Seifer were there from the beginning and therefore their basic training could not have been done under SeeDs, as there couldn't have been any SeeDs at all. Unless Cid himself trained them (which isn't all together impossible as he did have the Devil in his lamp), there must have been instructors sourced from military veterans. That's the most likely place for Squall & Seifer to learn how to use a sharp blade with explosives.
EDIT: Maybe Cid is more hectic than we think. He does say that he can't face Edea/Ultimecia because he doesn't want to kill his wife, not that he can't. Hmmmm.
p.s intresting concept, urm no? It feels like a idea plucked from thin air with no explanation, it's bullshizer. Plus i never found and hints in the game. Yeah that shumi dude wanted to evolve into a human. but i could do the same and i could want to evolve into a bird!Quote:
Originally Posted by MJN SEIFERIt's hinted to. At least Garden related people like Cid - I have yet to find direct hints to the others, but it is an interesting concept.Quote:
Originally Posted by ChickenHeart
I'm still vaguely hanging on to this until I check the Artisan thing (as that could disprove the theory), but after reading the evolution theory on this forum, I had another look at some scenes, and I always figured it was strange how a human could no so much about shumis when they have always been kinda icolated - even those like NORG who is an outsider, he still keeps to himself, and rarely came out of the MD level (Squall saying that he "knew nothing about him".)Quote:
Originally Posted by ChickenHeartp.s intresting concept, urm no? It feels like a idea plucked from thin air with no explanation, it's bullshizer. Plus i never found and hints in the game. Yeah that shumi dude wanted to evolve into a human. but i could do the same and i could want to evolve into a bird!Quote:
Originally Posted by MJN SEIFERIt's hinted to. At least Garden related people like Cid - I have yet to find direct hints to the others, but it is an interesting concept.Quote:
Originally Posted by ChickenHeart
Christmas,he is the only one who looks like a Shumi.Try to see for yourself.
Also,it makes a lot of sense on the context.
As a shumi it evolves to what is on it´s heart(the one who possess it).
For example,if Rinoa possesses a Shumi it will be shaped like Rinoa.
If no one possesses it. it will become a form representative of it´s personality(Moomba or Elder).
Concerning the persons I cited as Shumi one can see what they are by understanding who are "possessing" them.
It requires many other theories of mine.It can´t be helped.Play the game many times and it will become self evident.
It happened with me.
Quote:
Originally Posted by MJN SEIFERI'm still vaguely hanging on to this until I check the Artisan thing (as that could disprove the theory), but after reading the evolution theory on this forum, I had another look at some scenes, and I always figured it was strange how a human could no so much about shumis when they have always been kinda icolated - even those like NORG who is an outsider, he still keeps to himself, and rarely came out of the MD level (Squall saying that he "knew nothing about him".)Quote:
Originally Posted by ChickenHeartp.s intresting concept, urm no? It feels like a idea plucked from thin air with no explanation, it's bullshizer. Plus i never found and hints in the game. Yeah that shumi dude wanted to evolve into a human. but i could do the same and i could want to evolve into a bird!Quote:
Originally Posted by MJN SEIFERIt's hinted to. At least Garden related people like Cid - I have yet to find direct hints to the others, but it is an interesting concept.Quote:
Originally Posted by ChickenHeart
The guys at FH knew about the shumis because they built the elevator leading to their village. I mean those are the only people who knew about them, i think. And Norgy, he was huge so he'd break that elevator :D
I still say the Gunblade is one of the stupidest weapons in Final Fantasy history. It's a pistol grip attached to a sword. Think of how awkward it would be to wield something like that.
Quote:
Originally Posted by marvelous_lie
Each to an own. I personally found the Gunblade to be very inovative. And how would it be awkward, it's pretty easy to use. All that matters is the timing.
The gunblade was a real weapon in history, except it wasn't a pistol. A gunblade or Gunsword was simply a rifle what had a full length sword blade slung underneath it. The blade would be almost purely for slicing and it's reasoning was simple: Reloading a weapon of the musket style was something very difficult to do under pressure, you needed time to be precise and you were defenceless when doing so. Therefore soldiers often carried swords with them or long knives for melee combat. The gun blade was an innovative idea of combining the sword and the gun so that the soldiers required less kit. However it was a deeply flawed system. The weapons would be heavy, very heavy in fact almost unweildly heavy this affected aim and also it's use as a melee weapon. It was replaced shortly afterwards with a new invention in the form of the bayonet. The bayonet combining the lightweight blade of a dagger with the length of the rifle allowing it to act as a spear like weapon when attached or as a dagger when not attached.
To Iceglow: I am aware of the Gunsword as a real life weapon, but I doubt the Gunblade is based on that. No offense.
The way the Gunblade works is that some energy is released within the blade whenever someone pulls the trigger (hence the use of the R1 button in the game), it has nothing to do with firing ammo or long-range battle - it is a fictional weapon in a fictional game, that relies on in game physiques. Nice idea though.
The Gunsword actually exists as a "Backup Weapon" for a character in the "Soul Series" begining in Soul Calibur 3, and you can actually use it as a long-range weapon (altough, the character's main weapon is basically a copy of the Soul Edge sword - so why he'd even need a back up weapon is beyond me...)
Cervantes had his pistol sword from SC1 not only from 3. I only know of one move where he uses it in a long range manner though. You can duck under the shot too, so it's quite a pointless move. It's uselessness in SC is very much reflective of the uselessness of actual pistol swords. xD
*will talk about SC forever if possible*
If the blade of the gunblade is light weight then it probably wouldn't have been too difficult to wield, relatively.