So I'm Gonna Bite the Bullet

After years of hating these games, I figured I'd try playing them. As I've said before, I loathe what I saw them do to FF characters I knew and loved. That being said, they at least seem to do their original characters a bit of justice and I'll just try and pretend their bastardized Seifer doesn't exist.

That brings me to why I made this topic. I cannot play handheld games because of my eyesight. Are any of them essential in understanding the overall plot? I don't want to play 1, 2 and this REChain of Memories game and then realize "oh. This only works if I actually play Birth by Sleep and Fraction Days".

Actually, from what I've been reading from other KH fans, it seems 1 is probably the least important game in the series. The Heartless invasion, the fake Ansem, all are apparently forgotten and insignificant. It's all about Mansex and Organization XIII.
Oh and an evil bald man.

KH1 is important for setting everything up, CoM is important for understanding what's happening at the start of KH2 despite what anyone says. KH2 is garbage and pretty much destroys whatever narrative the series was trying to make, and 358/2 is pretty good but is only important if you actually give a damn about a specific character of if you are a hopeless fan for Orgy XIII, otherwise, its not important at all and is also simply fan-service. I have not played BBS but from what I've been hearing, its just as much of a mind screw as KH2 is and by that, I mean it answers a few questions and just leaves you with a dozen more.

As for the portrayal of the FF characters, they are mostly fan-service and have little importance to the plot, though it is kinda fun to say that Sephy got his ass kicked by a kid with a key whose party is composed of a duck and dog. Kinda makes being beaten by Cloud not feel so bad...

Imo Seifer is one of the few ff characters true to thier original personality. Setzer on the other hand made me rage

As for whether BBS and Days matters for the overall plot, then I dont think so, 1, 2 and CoM make sense without BBS and Days, theyre there to provide background plot rather than continue the story (I havent finished either of them yet though). But as to whether KH3 (if it's ever made) will have any impact on those games, who knows.

Just play KH1 and ignore the rest. An excellent story, with no ott 'deep' plot.

Hey I like KH2 D: It's full of fishy fun! :ariel:

KH1's plot may seem to be insignificant to the main series arc, but of all the KH games out so far, KH1 has the best story.

They're decent games I guess. I had enough fun (or was it the perfectionist in me?) to finish both 1 and 2. After 2 I tried playing CoM.. couldn't do it. It bored me to pieces.

A few of the FF characters bothered me. By bothered I mean, I really resent KH for it. Squall, er Leon as he calls himself in KH, wouldn't be caught dead associating with a talking duck or dog. IMO, at least.

Also, was there ever any FFIX characters in it? Not saying I want them in there, but they put X/X-2 characters in there... Did they just completely space about IX? Or do I have a bad memory?

Vivi was in KH2 I don't remember about any others though.

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Originally Posted by Propagator

They're decent games I guess. I had enough fun (or was it the perfectionist in me?) to finish both 1 and 2. After 2 I tried playing CoM.. couldn't do it. It bored me to pieces.

A few of the FF characters bothered me. By bothered I mean, I really resent KH for it. Squall, er Leon as he calls himself in KH, wouldn't be caught dead associating with a talking duck or dog. IMO, at least.

Also, was there ever any FFIX characters in it? Not saying I want them in there, but they put X/X-2 characters in there... Did they just completely space about IX? Or do I have a bad memory?

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Why not? Is Leon too good for them or something? Donald and Goofy are two of the best parts of the game! It's unique, I hope they continue with it rather than replace them with the typical Square-type characters.

EoFF always makes me feel like I'm the only one who didn't think Kingdom Hearts II was utter trash. I never felt that any of it was especially hard to grasp. I felt that a majority of it was pretty damned predictable (the only exception being (SPOILER)the whole Ansem/Xehanort twist which I really didn't find to be a significant stretch).

As for the handheld titles, I find they're typically more important for linking between the numbered series than anything else. I imagine playing Kingdom Hearts II without having played Chain of Memories would be a pretty awful stumble through the dark. While 358/2 Days is hardly necessary, it certainly answered a few minor questions about (SPOILER)Roxas and the Organization while building towards Birth By Sleep. Playing the Prologue of KH2 after completely Days certainly feels a lot more complete, and I'm one of those who already loved the Prologue.

I've done my best not to ruin Birth By Sleep for myself (and have so far done a fairly good job), but I understand that while it certainly brings up questions of its own, it is necessary for understanding how the events surrounding Sora were put into motion. I don't understand why it's a problem that the game might create as many if not more questions than it answers; it has been clear for quite a long time that the story isn't quite over, so why should all the questions be answered before it is? And even in the end, why should every question be answered?

Honestly, I'd still like to know what glaring holes there were in KH2. It doesn't wrap everything into a nice and tidy bow, certainly, but the plot is hardly Swiss cheese like people on this forum like to make it out to be.

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Originally Posted by Forsaken Lover

Actually, from what I've been reading from other KH fans, it seems 1 is probably the least important game in the series. The Heartless invasion, the fake Ansem, all are apparently forgotten and insignificant. It's all about Mansex and Organization XIII.
Oh and an evil bald man.

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But KH1 is one of the better-written stories, in my opinion. It has that Disney charm that the other titles seem to be lacking. You're probably best off just watching the cutscenes on YouTube.

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Originally Posted by Ouch!

EoFF always makes me feel like I'm the only one who didn't think Kingdom Hearts II was utter trash. I never felt that any of it was especially hard to grasp. I felt that a majority of it was pretty damned predictable (the only exception being (SPOILER)the whole Ansem/Xehanort twist which I really didn't find to be a significant stretch).

Honestly, I'd still like to know what glaring holes there were in KH2. It doesn't wrap everything into a nice and tidy bow, certainly, but the plot is hardly Swiss cheese like people on this forum like to make it out to be.

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I feel most people are annoyed in concerns of "asking more questions" because it makes the games feel a bit incomplete and sorta comes across a bit like "we're with-holding information cause we want you to buy every entry in the franchise" I'm not terribly annoyed by this but I do feel after the events of KH2 that I no longer care about Sora and his story cause most of his conflict to me has been resolved and despite not dealing with the Heartless once and for all in a fairy tale ending where everyone becomes so goody-two-shoe that darkness is wiped out for good, I actually feel the ending to KH2 resolves all of his conflicts. He finally gets home and he's reunited with his two friends and hopefully he's finally dating one of them. The Heartless are hardly a threat in KH2.

MAJOR KH2 SPOILERS YO!

(SPOILER)Where the plot suffers in KH2 is as following:

Maleficent returns - Not only does this come out of nowhere in the plot, it doesn't actually add anything to the plot either. She's the supposed villain of KH1 before Xehanort's Heartless walks in and takes over and her coming back in KH2 doesn't accomplish anything besides leaving a plot thread open. She doesn't do anything in KH2, she saves Sora twice but neither scene is so important that they couldn't have been omitted from the plot. She serves little purpose in the story beyond simply telling the player "the story isn't over", which to me is a lousy reason to bring her back especially when she does little else in the plot. Even her return in the plot is just so anti-climatic. Its less of a "Oh No!" and more of a "WTF?"

What's Kairi doing here again? - I will repeat, what the smurf is Kairi doing here again, sure Org XIII tells Sora they kidnapped her to make him kill more Heartless but its not like he actually sees her, they just told him they did it and be the trusting guy he is, he believes them. Kairi's whole purpose in the plot is to be a damsel in distress and her lines could fill a third of a a piece of paper while still staying in the lines. She has no real reason to be there, not to mention the ending for her gets ruined when the plot pulls a Deus Ex Machina to save Sora and Riku from the World of Darkness. The ending would have been better if they had just been trapped there and KH3 would be about Kairi coming to rescue them. Instead, she writes a cute note that activates the DTL and everyone lives happily ever after and Kairi is left with no character development or even the promise of character development.

I'm not Riku, I am Ansem! - This is like the most BS plot twist ever, and its entire point is to just force some cheap pity out of the player for Riku. Not only is the whole plot element barely logical (okay... Riku uses darkness in KH1 but its because he is possessed by Asnem but in CoM he beat down Ansem and took control over the power of darkness and became more of a bad ass and somehow gained a power that is only actually utilized in 358/2 [his ability to see the true form of people] and somehow, despite conquering the power of Darkness within, using it makes him take a different form and he uses it as a Freudian Excuse to avoid Sora when obviously being a total jerk to him in KH1 was not enough.) Not to mention after the big scary reveal of his true form the plot fixes it 10 minutes later with a BS Deus ex Machina making the whole "tragedy" of his fate seem like the author just didn't want to bother with it to begin with. His only thing could have been dropped and it wouldn't have changed a damn thing in the story, it was basically there to give Riku some cheap sympathy from his fans.

We're the Villains, Now we die! - For the amount of foreshadowing and build up to KH2 that Nomura and SE did, its a damn shame the Org XIII is poorly utilized. Beyond four characters in the group one of which is wiped out in the Prologue and the other two getting very little screen time, Org. XIII are pretty much downgraded to Mega Man villain status with most of them having terrible character development and coming across as themed bosses instead of legitimate characters. BBS and 358/2 remedy some of this but if you were only going by KH2, they are very undeveloped. It just seems a bit odd to be building up the group so much when only two members actually have any real story significance (Xemnas and Roxas) and the rest are just kind of there. Hell, the members from CoM actually get more development than the ones in KH2. Demyx gets comic relief status at least but no one really likes him.

Axel is built up so much in CoM that you think he's going to have a big role in KH2 but instead he's downgraded to a whiny background character who gets suckered into the unnecessary story segmenets involving Kairi. He even has a pretty decent motive and plot going on but it never goes anywhere and as soon as Saix takes her away she basically drops his goal and shows up for a pointless scene so he can have a heroes death. Throw in the fact that some sources I've read have said that Axel wasn't even suppose to live past the prologue and actually be killed in his fight with Roxas, so it just seems like a waste to me. The fact that his popularity saved him but ended up giving him a completely pointless role in KH2 didn't really remedy the situation. The same could be said of Roxas as a character as well, but he's not as bad off as the rest of the members.

Basically, Org. XIII was really interesting in CoM and they basically get downgraded to boss of the week with shallow personalities in KH2. Most are killed just as they are truly introduced and none of them got the proper treatment they deserved. Nojima dropped the ball in KH2 from what Daisuke did for the story in CoM.

Xehanort and his Heartless - This is not as bad as the rest but you have to admit that this was not exactly presented to the player as smoothly as it should have been. I'm pretty sure BBS will make this an awesome plot element but when it was first revealed I know a lot of people who basically said "W-T-F?! You have got to be kidding me". In some ways it comes across as the writers desperately trying to retcon stuff from KH1 so they can re-use characters and plot elements for future sequels. Its not bad but it could have been done better than Mickey dropping a plot bomb on you every-time he shows up. I actually started to dread Mickey's appearances cause every time he showed up, the plot got weirder and weirder.

My beef with KH2's plot is that its just haphazardly written and a lot of the plot is irrelevant even as character growth. There is also the issue of KH2 making it more apparent that the stories cosmology is sort of created as they go along but dear god is it starting to create some plot holes concerning the World of Darkness, Corridors of Darkness, and Kingdom Hearts. Maybe future titles will fix it but I feel SE is just going to be lazy and tell us not to think too hard about it... :eep:

While we're at it, can someone please explain the reason behind the Ansem/Xehanort switch? What was the point? It doesn't serve the plot at all. So the main villain, an apprentice of a guy named Ansem, takes his master's name when he starts conducting weird, psychotic experiments. Ok... So why not just have it be Ansem, an apprentice of some guy named Bob, who just starts conducting the experiments? What was the point of the stupid retcon?

If they wanted to have a villain named Xehanort that badly, they should have either written it that way in the beginning, or introduced a new villain with that name. Changing the name of the established villain for no purpose was stupid.

Besides, it's not like it's a great name anyway.

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...but if you were only going by KH2...

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That's the problem with how you're looking at this. You cannot go only by Kingdom Hearts II. It's the third entry in a series that currently spans six titles. To expect all elements of the plot to be entirely self-contained without expansion and explication in additional games is ridiculous. Kingdom Hearts stood on its own for the same reason many first titles in series stand on their own--there's no guarantee that the title will be successful enough to financially warrant continuing the series.

I'll grant that Kairi's role in KH2 at times felt a bit contrived ((SPOILER)although remember that Hayner, Pence, and Olette witnessed Kairi's abduction; Sora didn't have to take the Organization's word for it). But, as you noted, so far both Birth by Sleep and 358/2 Days have gone on to answer a number of questions about (SPOILER)Organization XIII and explicate what was missing there as well as introducing more of the back story as to how Riku landed himself in his current predicament ((SPOILER)which I thought was not a consequence of using the power of darkness, which he did well enough on his own, but rather drawing on the power of Xehanort's heartless).

As for (SPOILER)Maleficent's return, I always felt it was less of an inconsequential plot arch so much as an incomplete one. It's a loose end left open for Kingdom Hearts III, and I'm not willing to say it's a complete waste of development unless it doesn't come to any consequence in future titles. (SPOILER)As I understand it, Maleficent has a fairly important role in Coded.

My point is best made comparing the issue to Star Wars, I think. A New Hope wraps all its lose ends together, similar to the original Kingdom Hearts. Both were experimental; neither was a surefire success, so they had to stand alone. Expecting KH2 to do everything on its own is like expecting The Empire Strikes Back to not build towards Return of the Jedi and tie off its own loose ends. Kingdom Hearts II and Final Mix+ more so leave a number of plot-threads untied, but so far additional entries in the series have done a pretty damn good job of tying them all together (each additional title I play brings me more and more faith that Nomura actually does have an idea as to how everything ties together--a faith I did not previously hold). So far, 358/2 Days and what little I know of Birth By Sleep seem to be doing a pretty damn good job of tying up what I thought were some of KH2's weaknesses and in the process convincing me that any other major complaints will receive equally satisfying justifications in future titles.

While I can concede that Maleficent's revival is still out for debate, it just seemed odd to me to have her come back into the picture fairly early in the plot and then proceed to just sit in the background, only occasionally jumping into the fray. It just bothers me from a literary standpoint to introduce someone who is suppose to be a major player in a story and then proceed to ignore them. I would have been fine with her resurrection had it happened towards the end of the game as opposed to the beginning and making me think she's eventually going to blindside my party at every new cutscene.

As for the Org members, I have to disagree. Though I love 358/2, I feel this game is mostly a title made for the Org XIII/Roxas fans and at the same time, it was created to fix KH2's mistake of under-utilizing the group. There really is no excuse for the members of the group to be so poorly used in KH2's plot even if they knew they were going to make a game about them, its still not justifiable in my book to do stuff like that. While the characters are more interesting now that they've been fleshed out a bit more, it still makes going through KH2 annoying cause they lack the depth given to them in the other titles, instead their charm is reliant on the player having to bring into the game all the elements about them expressed in other titles.

This would have worked if 358/2 and BBS came out before KH2 but it was the other way around, so players got to experience poorly used villains for an entire game and wait 3-4 years to finally get the games that flesh them out a bit just so we can go back and finally be able to enjoy the sequel again.

I feel my problem here is that KH2 is unbalances from a story standpoint compared to the rest of the games in the series. KH1 is pretty much self-contained despite its cliffhanger ending but so are 358/2, CoM, and apparently BBS. These games are all pretty self contained sequels, prequels and spin-offs, its KH2 that actually needs all these titles to be truly enjoyable. I feel like KH2 is a bare bones title that is over reliant on all the spin-offs and prequels in order to fully enjoy the game. Like a badly managed game with DLC that is more impressive than the core title you bought. To the point where I sometimes feel the team deliberately removes content for the sake of using them to make more titles. KH just feels like a giant marketing scheme sometimes (well it is by nature of its very premise) but one where I am going to be forced to shell out more and more money to get to an ending that I can't even fathom could exist.

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Originally Posted by Crop

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Originally Posted by Propagator

They're decent games I guess. I had enough fun (or was it the perfectionist in me?) to finish both 1 and 2. After 2 I tried playing CoM.. couldn't do it. It bored me to pieces.

A few of the FF characters bothered me. By bothered I mean, I really resent KH for it. Squall, er Leon as he calls himself in KH, wouldn't be caught dead associating with a talking duck or dog. IMO, at least.

Also, was there ever any FFIX characters in it? Not saying I want them in there, but they put X/X-2 characters in there... Did they just completely space about IX? Or do I have a bad memory?

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Why not? Is Leon too good for them or something? Donald and Goofy are two of the best parts of the game! It's unique, I hope they continue with it rather than replace them with the typical Square-type characters.

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Squalls awfully serious is all I'm saying. There's nothing wrong with them, but they're not really Square characters; they're disney.