Critical Characterization Failure - Sephiroth

I'm just going to ignore the Compilation here for a second. It doesn't really refute what I say but everything was actually good in FF7 so I think it's worth quoting more than Crisis Bore.

So we only truly get to know the "character" of Sephiroth in the Kalm flashback.

The Beginning

Sephiroth
It's your first time back to your hometown in a long time, right? So how does it feel? I wouldn't know because I don't have a hometown...

Cloud
Umm.... how 'bout your parents?

Sephiroth
My mother is Jenova. She died right after she gave birth to me. My father... What does it matter...? All right, let's go.

Sephiroth
N... no....

(Sephiroth stops trembling.)

Sephiroth
=...Was I?

(He draws his sword and begins furiously attacking the pods. Cloud jumps away.)

Sephiroth
..Was I created this way too?

(He slashes at the first pod.)

Sephiroth
Am I the same as all these monsters.....

Sephiroth
...I've always felt since I was small...
That I was different from the others. Special, in some way.
But... not like this....

Sephiroth
...an organism that was apparently dead, was found in a 2000 year old geological stratum. Professor Gast named that organism, Jenova...

(The camera pans up.)

Sephiroth
X Year, X Month, X Day. Jenova confirmed to be an Ancient...
X Year, X Month, X Day. Jenova Project approved. The use of Mako Reactor 1 approved for use...


Sephiroth
My mother's name is Jenova... Jenova Project... Is this just a coincedence?
(He looks down sadly)
Professor Gast... Why didn't you tell me anything? ...Why did you die?

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This is what we see of Sephiroth while he's still a hero. In short, he's very confused and angry. He wants to know where he came from and why he is here (common theme of Japanese fiction it seems) and he's trying to piece it all together. He doesn't seem to like what he's finding.


The Middle

Sephiroth
This Planet originally belonged to the Cetra. Cetra was a itinerant race. They would migrate in, settle the Planet, then move on... At the end of their harsh, hard journey, they would find the Promised Land and supreme happiness.


Sephiroth
But, those that disliked the journey appeared. Those who stopped their migrations built shelters and elected to lead an easier life. They took that which the Cetra and the planet had made without giving one whit in return!


Sephiroth
Those are your ancestors.

Sephiroth
Long ago, disaster struck this planet.
Your ancestors escaped... They survived because they hid. The Planet was saved by sacrificing the Cetra. After that, your ancestors continued to increase.
Now all that's left of the Cetra is in these reports.

Sephiroth
Don't you get it? "An Ancient named Jenova was found in the geological stratum of 2000 years ago. The Jenova Project.
The Jenova Project wanted to produce people with the powers of the Ancients..... no, the Cetra.
...I am the one that was produced."
[...]
Professor Gast, leader of the Jenova Project and genius scientist, produced me.


Sephiroth
Mother, let's take this planet back together. I've thought of a great idea. Let's go to the Promised Land.

Sephiroth
Ha, ha, ha... my sadness? What do I have to be sad about? I am the chosen one. I have been chosen to be the leader of this Planet. I have orders to take this planet back from you stupid people for the Cetra. What am I supposed to be sad about?

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Now we can gleam from all this Sephiroth has, to be technical, flipped his lid. But it's not the typical kind of crazy. It was brought on by his inaccurate assumptions about his own origins. He has concluded that he was a lab experiment - created as a tool by human beings and he is not human himself. He is a thing and that feeling of being "different" that has plagued him his whole life is 100% true.

I think Sephiroth snapped because he was indeed sad just like Cloud said he was. He was lost in his own misery and embraced his "destiny" as a means to escape. It makes sense given how confused and unsure he was before he found out about all this.

So he was a stoic but nice enough guy who lost his mind when he mistakenly came to the conclusion he was a freak of science. It's rather tragic and you can almost sympathize with him.

The End
(how fitting since everything I just said comes to an end here)

Aerith
Sephiroth is different. He's not an Ancient.

Sephiroth
I'm far superior to the Ancients. I became a traveler of the Lifestream and gained the knowledge and wisdom of the Ancients. I also gained the knowledge and wisdom of those after the extinction of the Ancients. And soon, I will create the future.

Sephiroth
By merging with all the energy of the Planet, I will become a new life forn, a new existence. Melding with the Planet... I will cease to exist as I am now. Only to be reborn as a 'God' to rule over every soul.

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So, remember that misguided goal of his, brought on by a tragic revelation? How he thought he was "avenging" his people and searching for a place to be happy?

Well he's apparently forgotten all about that by the time of the game. He knows now full well that:
A. He's not an Ancient.
B. His "mother" was the thing that actually caused most of the Ancients to die.

He also abandoned his old plan. His new objective is...to be all powerful and rule the world.

I think the real Sephiroth got lost somewhere and replaced with Generic RPG Villain by the actual time of FF7.

The writers completely chucked out everything we learned in Nibelheim about his character or desire. He doesn't care about Jenova, he doesn't want to "take back" the Planet. He just wants to be a god.

So, hence the characterization failure.

Maybe this is why so many people, myself included, used to tbuy the Jenova was in control idea. See, it would make sense. if the alien abomination was manipulating Sephiroth, we could excuse his radical change. But since Squeenix says he's the one doing it all, it's just terrible writing.

And that is all I have to say on that for now. Your opinions are welcome.

He is the product of two seriously unhinged scientist and a destructive alien entity. He's going to be messed up, he has Hojo's psychotic tendencies, lucrecia's hair style and is super powered by Jenova, Boy never stood a chance

in short, Sephiroth got played by Jenova (who had nothing better to do than to go around the universe destroying worlds and whatnot). Compare to Cloud, who managed to overcome his shattered little ego and Jenova programming.

I never really psycho-analyzed Sephiroth's motives in the beginning and how they changed over the course of the game. Without any exposition explaining it. But you brought up some really interesting points, and now that you mention it, I think I would have really liked if the original Sephiroth had stayed the course as the villain and not switched to the generic rpg villain archetype. Misguided fallen heros make compelling antagonists. It worked really well for Lunar. Gives the character depth and the player can possibly empathize, which is a good narative and dramatic device for story-telling. Guess they really dropped the ball

Perhaps. You mention that he finds out he is not a descendant of the Cetra, but rather, the descendant of an evil creature. When he found this out, he was already unhinged. He had also been chilling for several years in the Lifestream, doing very little besides absorbing knowledge. So, after the realisation of his true ancestry as a planetary destroyer and armed with the knowledge that he had received, becoming a God is quite a plausible way for him to act.

Or he could have just been really irritated that Cloud beat him and thought this would be a great way to get revenge.

Here's my two cents on the matter; Bare in mind, I haven't read any ultimania guides, but from what I've heard they explain nothing that isn't explained in the game (they just dumb it down), but when I played VII, I got that Sephiroth's background actually quite well written, and intriguing. For a start was born normally - excluding the Jenova experiment, he wasn't "made" from an experiment like what was originally documented - his mother (not Jenova) was injected with Jenova Cells, as where the Sephiroth Clones later - that's how they were clones.

In Cloud's corrupted memory (this close to the truth) Sephiroth finds the reports on the Ancients and makes the assumption that he is (at least in someway) a descendent of the Ancients, and everything goes on from there.

Five years pass, to present time; The Sephiroth that is scene throughout the game is represented by Jenova, but it is still Sephiroth in mind, even though he's in Life Stream (that was the only thing that I needed to check on, it is apparently in the Ultimania) when he first emerges, he is apparently still set on the Promised Land and kills President Shinra off screen, but in the scene on the ship his mind is set, and he doesn't seem to know where he is, or who's talking to him - I think the two minds aren't complete yet, I could be wrong, but that's the impression I got.

The next time Cloud sees him, he is more focused on what he is saying and seems more aware of who Cloud is, I think he recognizes that Cloud has Jenova cells, and it can be used, but it's to early to do so, because they're just in the mansion - there's no way Cloud can be put to good use, even though we've seen that something is affecting him from past scenes. By this time he has learned Jenova was not an Ancient but something else, we later learn from Gast's report that Jenova deceived the Ancients, eventually making some of them evil. We don't really get told if Sephiroth knew any of this, or if Jenova continued to corrupt his mind - maybe Sephiroth views the history of Jenova differently? Maybe to him Jenova had every right to do what she did? He obviously has some of Jenova's memories as well. He is even more set in his goals in The Temple of The Ancients, and actually does use Cloud here, as he tries to later in the City of the Ancients, and in the North Cave (although why Cloud chooses that moment to say that Sephiroth found him boring is beyond me - possible translation error?)

The thing I find the most intriguing is that, in reality it didn't matter who Sephiroth was, he was not a descendent of the Ancients, and he wasn't really a descendent of whatever Jenova is - he was just another person, who's mother happened to be injected with Jenova cells, and was then infused into the Life Stream - it could have all been avoided, if the Jenova Experiment had never took place.

Pretty good writing in my book.

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Originally Posted by MJN SEIFER

The thing I find the most intriguing is that, in reality it didn't matter who Sephiroth was, he was not a descendent of the Ancients, and he wasn't really a descendent of whatever Jenova is - he was just another person, who's mother happened to be injected with Jenova cells, and was then infused into the Life Stream - it could have all been avoided, if the Jenova Experiment had never took place.

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true that. Most of what we got about Sephiroth right up till disc 3 was just a concept inside Clouds mind, some kind of superhero he looked up to. Pretty much in the same way most fanboys view Sephiroth as some omgawesome villain.

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Originally Posted by kotora

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Originally Posted by MJN SEIFER

The thing I find the most intriguing is that, in reality it didn't matter who Sephiroth was, he was not a descendent of the Ancients, and he wasn't really a descendent of whatever Jenova is - he was just another person, who's mother happened to be injected with Jenova cells, and was then infused into the Life Stream - it could have all been avoided, if the Jenova Experiment had never took place.

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true that. Most of what we got about Sephiroth right up till disc 3 was just a concept inside Clouds mind, some kind of superhero he looked up to. Pretty much in the same way most fanboys view Sephiroth as some omgawesome villain.

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Yeah, pretty much. Incidently, I still rate Sephiroth fairly high since he was the first villain I really took interest in, but I don't go into fanboy mode anymore.

More proof of how badly handled Sephiroth's change was.

This is his theme song once he turned evil in Nibelheim.
"Those Chosen By The Planet" fits how Sephiroth believed he was a Cetra destined to take the world back from the vile humans.

Only...he keeps this theme during the time of FFVII when he knows full well he's actually an alien abomination and directly opposed to the Planet.

I think the theme fits because it sounds kinda like a theme for an evil dude who wants to kill a lot of people. Only time it felt like it didn't fit was during the final battle, because that fight was against the idea of Sephiroth in Clouds mind instead of the real dude.

Great topic. I've contemplated Sephiroth's strange sense of motivation as well, though I think it can be pieced together and wasn't just tacked on. This might rephrase some of what you were saying, but...

My interpretation attempts to answer three related questions about Sephiroth's development:
1) Aside from reading that he was a descendant of the Cetra, why did Sephiroth's ego transition so quickly from being devastated to being confident and vengeful?
2) When exactly did Sephiroth learn that he was not an ancient?
3) Why did his plan of action - to seek the Promised Land, gain enormous power and wisdom, destroy the contemporary world population, and (likely) rule over every soul - essentially stay the same, even though his motives changed?

To begin, it doesn't take much deducing to answer the second question - Sephiroth learns the truth about Jenova when he is in the lifestream, absorbing the Planet's knowledge. And despite this revelation, Sephiroth keeps essentially the same plan, deciding that he is superior to the ancients anyway. Something about this doesn't make sense though: To stay the course would require quite a mental leap for Sephiroth - from taking revenge against the world for the Ancients' sake, to destroying the world for his own benefit. Sephiroth's intentions literally shift from a misguided justice to intentional malice. Yet this leap of moral thought doesn't phase him a bit - if anything, it makes his resolve even stronger. It would seem that from his breakdown onward, Sephiroth, subconsciously, is never truly concerned with 'setting things right'; rather, he is really only concerned with whatever would ultimately lead to the destruction of the world and his rise to ultimate power. This answers the third question but raises another: Why is Sephiroth so fixated on this single underlying goal?

One possible interpretation is that as Sephiroth learns more and more, he becomes increasingly deranged, self-glorifying, and thus more hateful towards humanity altogether. He is obsessed with the thought of their inferiority and his own entitlement as a superior being. And while I believe this to be true, I don't think it's the whole story. After all, Sephiroth is a very sensible man before the Nibelheim incident - yet in a short time frame, he completely loses it.

Let's take a look at the incident. The discovery Sephiroth makes in the Nibel Reactor shatters his ego and causes him to question his humanity. He is no longer confident in himself and no longer shows his past strength. Sephiroth then confines himself in the Shinra basement, and his research there leads him to the conclusion that he is not a monster after all, but rather a synthetic descendant of the Cetra. At this point, we would expect a sigh of relief from someone like Sephiroth - "The Cetra were human, and I'm a Cetra. Great. I'm basically human, I'm not a monster, this explains the special feeling I had as a kid, let's get on with our lives." But instead, he decides he needs to unite with Jenova and destroy the world as it is known.

From here, I cannot ignore the parallels between Sephiroth's motives and Jenova's characteristics:
>Jenova's constant goal is to feed on a planet's energy, ultimately destroying it // this is consistent with Sephiroth's intentions, which would only help accomplish this goal.
>Jenova has the power to influence those who are weak or weakened (e.g. Cloud) // Sephiroth develops his destructive intentions, as well as his obsession with Jenova, at a time when he is at his lowest - with a broken ego, questioning his humanity.

Given this, it appears that deep down, Sephiroth was indeed doing Jenova's bidding all along. This does not necessarily mean that he was being manipulated directly by Jenova in the same way as, say, Cloud was when he handed over the Black Materia at the Temple of the Ancients (and though I have not read much of the Ultimanias, perhaps this is the kind of manipulation they were referring to). Still, the Jenova inside him did take advantage of his mind at a time of weakness, causing him to 'inherit' the will of Jenova, a condition from which he never recovered. This remained a constant subconscious goal of Sephiroth, even though his surface-level motivations later changed. Sephiroth was not directly controlled by Jenova like some unconscious puppet; rather, as I believe Squall of Seed once put it, he in a sense "became Jenova."
(I'd like to note that Cloud falls into the same condition during the Northern Crater scene after having questioned his own humanity - though unlike Sephiroth, he does later recover)

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Originally Posted by Forsaken Lover

Maybe this is why so many people, myself included, used to buy the Jenova was in control idea. See, it would make sense.

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In fact, a Jenova-Puppetmaster-esque interpretation is really the only one that does make sense, covering all the strange Jenova-Sephiroth parallels and appropriately conforming to the story's intricacies. The game tells us what happens to anyone with Jenova cells when they become weak or lose self-confidence. Why should Sephiroth be an exception? So with this interpretation, we have a solid explanation for Sephioroth's change in motivation without compromising the integrity of his characterization.


tldr: Sephiroth's subconscious=JENOVA's will; ignore ultimania, critical thinking is superior.

In all honesty FF7 made way more sense to me before they released the Ultimania to clarify things.

^Yes. It's exploitative fan wank and not much else.

Slightly off-topic:

Question for those who know more details about the game than I do:

Is there ever a back story for the Shinra Co. presented in the game? Anywhere? Even a blurb or scrap of info? How far back does the company go? Who started it and why? Was it a Shinra family member who invented the Mako industry or did they just exploit some new technology (as a good capitalist tends to do)?

Oh, and if it appears in anything other than the original game or PC port, I don't want to hear it. None. Shh.

there's that :bou::bou::bou::bou:ty link with FFX-2's Shinra they made up

^Wait, which? (I've never played X2)

There's this Al Bhed kid named Shinra who finds an energy source inside Spira while on board of the airship in FFX-2

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Originally Posted by VeloZer0

In all honesty FF7 made way more sense to me before they released the Ultimania to clarify things.

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Like I said before, Ultimania doesn't explain anything that isn't clearly explained in the game for me, e.g. I was right about the "clones" for example, and yet Ultimania thought it needed dumbing down.

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Originally Posted by Forsaken Lover

More proof of how badly handled Sephiroth's change was.

This is his theme song once he turned evil in Nibelheim.
"Those Chosen By The Planet" fits how Sephiroth believed he was a Cetra destined to take the world back from the vile humans.

Only...he keeps this theme during the time of FFVII when he knows full well he's actually an alien abomination and directly opposed to the Planet.

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Not really, opposed or for, he is still "chosen" by the planet seeing as he is using meteor for the "new world" so it makes sense to keep his theme.

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Originally Posted by silentenigma

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Originally Posted by Forsaken Lover

Maybe this is why so many people, myself included, used to buy the Jenova was in control idea. See, it would make sense.

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In fact, a Jenova-Puppetmaster-esque interpretation is really the only one that does make sense, covering all the strange Jenova-Sephiroth parallels and appropriately conforming to the story's intricacies. The game tells us what happens to anyone with Jenova cells when they become weak or lose self-confidence. Why should Sephiroth be an exception? So with this interpretation, we have a solid explanation for Sephioroth's change in motivation without compromising the integrity of his characterization.
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Jenova controlling Sephiroth does make some level of sense, but Square have apperently stated that it is another way around - Sephiroth takes control of Jenova, who appears as Sephiroth, it sounds more confusing than it is, but when you think about it makes a whole lot of sense, as the answer is there in front of you the whole time.

Pretty much everything else silentenigma said makes sense.


Another thing to concider, is that when Sephiroth was sent to the Lifestream, he was pretty much "dead" (by that I mean, if he was just a normal person, he would have died from all that happened that day) even with all the stuff he learns from the Lifstream, he would still be set on the same goal all the way through.

So, really his goals never changed at all when you think of it...

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Originally Posted by MJN SEIFER

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Originally Posted by VeloZer0

More proof of how badly handled Sephiroth's change was.

This is his theme song once he turned evil in Nibelheim.
"Those Chosen By The Planet" fits how Sephiroth believed he was a Cetra destined to take the world back from the vile humans.

Only...he keeps this theme during the time of FFVII when he knows full well he's actually an alien abomination and directly opposed to the Planet.

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Not really, opposed or for, he is still "chosen" by the planet seeing as he is using meteor for the "new world" so it makes sense to keep his theme.

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My god. There's being an apologist (which you did first) and then there's just being plain ridiculous.

You just said his theme makes sense. That the Planet chose him to kill the Planet and steal all its energy for himself.

So what, the Planet wants to die? It wants Sephiroth to crash a giant rock into it and monopolize all the souls of the dead so he can become a god?

The planet didn't choose crap. Sephiroth is trying to KILL THE PLANET and replace it with his own existence. He is the Planet's arch nemesis just like Jenova was. he knows it and the Plnet knows it.

The theme doesn't make sense anymore.

I don't think it's worth getting worked up over the naming of the music piece. It's a sinister theme that fits the mood at certain points of the game, and it just so happened to be named after one of the most significant scenes in which it is played. It's the same way for other pieces too - "Interrupted by Fireworks", "Underneath the Rotting Pizza" to name a couple. It's pretty irrelevant to the writing, really.

And Flying Arrow: There really isn't much in-depth history given for Shinra, just that it was a weapons manufacture that (presumably) developed mako technology for that use. Then when the war ended and there was no longer a demand for weapons, it moved to Mako Energy instead. It would be reasonable that the company had been a family company, since the President share's the company's name, and the Vice President is his son. We aren't told how many generations, though.

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Originally Posted by Forsaken Lover

..........................................My god. There's being an apologist (which you did first) and then there's just being plain ridiculous.

You just said his theme makes sense. That the Planet chose him to kill the Planet and steal all its energy for himself.

So what, the Planet wants to die? It wants Sephiroth to crash a giant rock into it and monopolize all the souls of the dead so he can become a god?

The planet didn't choose crap. Sephiroth is trying to KILL THE PLANET and replace it with his own existence. He is the Planet's arch nemesis just like Jenova was. he knows it and the Plnet knows it.

The theme doesn't make sense anymore.

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I meant in his (Sephiroth's) mind he has been "chosen" by the planet, you need to look at the back history of, FFVII to get this, but the characters of FFVII seem to treat the planet as sentient, and that they can recieve their messages from it, like how the Ancients find the Promised Land - they are "told" by the planet. Sephiroth may have interperted it the same way, that;s what I meant. Also, don't call me an "apologist", I really hate that, it's as if I'm not allowed to try to find reasonsings, to what I saw growing up, could you please point out where in my first post I seemed like an apologist, because I am really not one, I belive what I said, and some of it is quoted.

However, having said that, I think that silentenigma...

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Originally Posted by silentenigma

I don't think it's worth getting worked up over the naming of the music piece. It's a sinister theme that fits the mood at certain points of the game, and it just so happened to be named after one of the most significant scenes in which it is played. It's the same way for other pieces too - "Interrupted by Fireworks", "Underneath the Rotting Pizza" to name a couple. It's pretty irrelevant to the writing, really.

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...is probably more likely to be right than me here, I would really like to know how you concidered me to be an apologist in my first post, and please hear out my response.

First, Sephiroth doesn't care about the Planet by the time of FFVII. That was the entire purpose of my opening post. He initially believed, incorrectly of course, that he was indeed chosen by the Planet.

However, by the time of FFVII, Sephiroth doesn't care what the Planet thinks or feels. he just wants to destroy it for his own purposes.

Second, I called you an apologist because I was feeling annoyed and argumentative. So sorry, it wasn't your fault. I was just in a pissy mood.

Yeah, Shinra were a weapons manufacturer who stumbled upon Mako energy in their weapon research and realised it was more profitable. I may be wrong, but I think they were trying to manufacture materia and that's how they found out that Mako could be used as energy.

I don't think it's too hard to believe that Sephiroth was just plain angry. He had basically been used as a tool by Shinra his entire life, and finding out that he had been manufactured like a tool would irritate most people.

There are also character traits within him that make him susceptible to megalomania and general insanity. Before his origins are discovered, he tells Cloud that he has always felt different, which is a modest way of saying special. He already believed he was superior before he found out that this was a genetic fact.

He then reads and believes that he comes from a superior form of humanity, which sacrificed itself for humanity. So, he believes he is superior, that his people are dead because of humans, he is already unhappy with the Shinra situation, so he decides to destroy everything that is inferior to him.

Once he had reached that stage, it doesn't take much to want to destroy people because of some ill-founded belief of ancestry with just wanting to destroy the world to gain power.

You could also argue that, because he was basically the child of Jenova, there was a genetic instinct for him to destroy.

Anyway, to sum up my long post, Sephiroth was a) vengeful and b) felt superior. These two traits of his character do not change throughout the game, they only change in intensity and the way his actions manifest from them.

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Originally Posted by silentenigma

In fact, a Jenova-Puppetmaster-esque interpretation is really the only one that does make sense, covering all the strange Jenova-Sephiroth parallels and appropriately conforming to the story's intricacies. The game tells us what happens to anyone with Jenova cells when they become weak or lose self-confidence. Why should Sephiroth be an exception? So with this interpretation, we have a solid explanation for Sephioroth's change in motivation without compromising the integrity of his characterization.

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AND the game tell us that Sephiroth's will is practically unmatched, that he was the one responsible for the current Reunion(Hojo literally says that, at the Whirlwind-Maze), and that the clones are attending Sephiroth's call(they never mention Jenova's name or "Mother").
Not to mention the other clues like, Jenova allways being "The Dragon"(TV-Tropes reference here) for Sephiroth, it's headless body appearing as Sephiroth(and not herself) for some unnexplained(but obvious) reason, and etc.
So no, the Jenova-Puppetmaster-esque interpretation doesn't make any sense. It ignores important plot-points of the story, only to make Sephiroth look like a "Draco in Leather Pants" and make the fangirls happy, or to make him look like a pathetic mindless puppet and make his haters happy.

But I agree that Jenova has some influence on his actions, due to the strong connection between them.

TVtropes is not a source you can use to back up your arguments dawg.

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Originally Posted by The Crystal

AND the game tell us that Sephiroth's will is practically unmatched, that he was the one responsible for the current Reunion(Hojo literally says that, at the Whirlwind-Maze),

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His will is indeed strong at this point, but this is long after his breakdown - long after when his intentions would have become subconsciously aligned with JENOVA's impulses. ("influence")

But all of that aside:

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But I agree that Jenova has some influence on his actions, due to the strong connection between them.

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...hence the -esque (as well as first three quarters of my post).

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Originally Posted by MJN SEIFER

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Originally Posted by silentenigma

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Originally Posted by Forsaken Lover

Maybe this is why so many people, myself included, used to buy the Jenova was in control idea. See, it would make sense.

---

In fact, a Jenova-Puppetmaster-esque interpretation is really the only one that does make sense, covering all the strange Jenova-Sephiroth parallels and appropriately conforming to the story's intricacies. The game tells us what happens to anyone with Jenova cells when they become weak or lose self-confidence. Why should Sephiroth be an exception? So with this interpretation, we have a solid explanation for Sephioroth's change in motivation without compromising the integrity of his characterization.
.

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Jenova controlling Sephiroth does make some level of sense, but Square have apperently stated that it is another way around - Sephiroth takes control of Jenova, who appears as Sephiroth, it sounds more confusing than it is, but when you think about it makes a whole lot of sense, as the answer is there in front of you the whole time.

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I might be able to clarify this a little more with (what else!) a Lord of the Rings reference. The Ring is a part of Sauron, forged from his blood, his strength, his emotions. Yet, when the final battle on the fields of Pellenor takes place, Sauron fears that Aragorn has the Ring and will use it against him. Why? Because, despite what the movies imply, the Ring could destroy Sauron. The Ring was the only thing that could undo him, either through its destruction or its power. Used by someone with a stronger will, it could purge Sauron from this world.

Why, then, did our heroes not take advantage of this? Because that would not change the nature of the Ring. It was still an object of evil and corruption. Merely desiring it can corrupt someone, and using it corrupts them further. Aragorn could have overcome Sauron, but using the Ring in that way would have had such an impact on his soul that he would have become a Dark Lord himself, one who (since he had defeated Sauron) would have been even more powerful. For that matter, Galadriel (had she been stronger willed than Sauron, a question never directly answered, since they never have a mental battle) would have been much the same thing. "In place of a Dark Lord you would have a queen! Not dark but beautiful and terrible as the dawn! Treacherous as the sea! Stronger than the foundations of the earth! All shall love me and despair!" New name, new personality, same evil.


Jenova works out much this way. It's a small, unassuming thing. It works its way in, shifting and corrupting. Putting on a friendly face, the Ancients do not recognize it until it is too late. As the calamity reaches its peak, the Cetra sacrifice everything to be rid of it, and it is lost for millenia. When found it is used, by those ignorant of its true nature and purpose. It begins, slowly, to eat away at their hearts and minds. During his time in the Lifestream, Sephiorth finally realizes what Jenova is, that it is more than just some nameless cells inside him, that it has a mind, a purpose, and that it is trying to use even him. He gathers his own will against it, and overcomes it. But no one makes it out of a fight like that without scars. Jenova as it was is gone, yes. One Dark Lord defeated. But using that power so warped and twisted Sephiroth that he no longer has the moral strength to proceed down a correct path. His old path, avenging the Ancients and restoring his mother is lost, for he destroyed Jenova himself and learns that he is closer to a descendent of that which destroyed the Ancients than Cloud is. So he dwells, with no path to follow, with no route to take, and with his very soul torn asunder by the conflict he won.

So he chose a new path.

That is the first thing I have ever read that made the Sephiroth controlling Jenova concept make any sense.

That's a really good and valid interpretation, Skyblade. Keeps the narrative's integrity intact and everything. I'd say I still have the same position as before, but I'm impressed nonetheless!

The LotR reference is perfect!
And remember: One ring to bring them all and in the darkness bind them.

Everyone with Jenova cells, Cloud included, were lead to The Reunion. Thus, Sephiroth was still somewhat Jenova, and planning to combine all the cells back together, because as Ilfana (or someone idk) said that Jenova will keep trying to repiecce itself back together, as it did back with the Ancients, and as Ilfana predicted.
IMO Sephs became a successor to Jenova, but she was still alive inside him. He did take a turn and change his mind about things, but I feel that was Jenova's influence.

I don't understand why it is so surprising for people that Sephiroth changed his first plan to free the world from the traitors, the human race as he thought first, to the second plan to become the ultimate being. It is like Forsaken Lover says a typical villain aspect to plan something which makes him/her even stronger than before. All of the other Final Fantasy villains before Sephiroth did that. And so did Sephiroth.

Sephiroth is JENOVA's descendant as Aerith is one of the Ancients. While JENOVA follows her instincts, Sephiroth does, too but as an actual character because he thinks "I am the chosen one. I am no special human, I am no ancient, but I am still special. I am better than all of them and I am chosen to be the ultimate being." And like JENOVA absorbs life to become stronger because it is her meaning of life Sephiroth does the same then. He wants to become better and better. He is the typical villain with the goal of superlatives, just with his own and special story. And of course even with his first plan he wanted to rule everything so the ultimate goal is still the same just with another method.

I just re-discovered this thread. There's some really great stuff in here. Skyblade and silentenigma, you guys have made some really great posts. It's uncommon to see such thoughtful stuff being said about this game.

I myself like to think of Jenova as similar to Lavos from the Chrono games. FFVII, Chrono Trigger, and Chrono Cross all share a script writer (Kato) and the themes of all three games often overlap in interesting ways, such as the parasitic Lovecraftian alien intelligence that lands among an unsuspecting human population (which I have always thought is a very interesting take on the ultimate demon evil genre trope) or the idea that humans are not quite the worthy race that most games lazily spout during the Final Battle. In FFVII and CC - CC in particular - there is a huge emphasis on positive and negative. For every good thing that is accomplished by an individual (or a whole race) there is often a bad thing that off-sets it (and vice versa). Morality in one's personal life does not always lead to morality in one's social life - most of the AVALANCHE members are guilty of this is some way (Barret and Tifa, notably).

But neither game is ever really negative. For every bad thing that is shown, something positive follows at some point (again, Barret or Tifa). Neither game falls into the trap of showing one type of behaviour and then showing an opposing type, confirming that the former is a deception of some sort and ending up as a story about The Evil of Humanity or The Redemption Found In Love and Friendship. Often in games, someone will do something morally reprehensible but, later on, will be shown performing some kind of noble task that off-sets it. More than those of other games, I think the writers of FFVII and CC in particular are consciously trying to pose these conflicting scenarios. They flip-flop (not in a bad way) usually up until the end. Both games have ambiguous endings that, while a bit of a let down after a long journey, leave a lot to be talked about. Of course this cleverness doesn't always hold up since each game has some serious execution issues in spots (likely due to the fact that the games are, unavoidably, designed by a collective of writers, designers, and executives - some inconsistency is bound to occur in the final product because of so many different perspectives). But it's great that Squaresoft tried. They had some serious budding talent back then. There's probably a lot to be said if one takes into consideration the Chrono games when looking at VII.

Ah thanks Flying Arrow. And that kind of makes me want to go play Chrono Cross again XD

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Originally Posted by MJN SEIFER

Jenova controlling Sephiroth does make some level of sense, but Square have apperently stated that it is another way around - Sephiroth takes control of Jenova, who appears as Sephiroth, it sounds more confusing than it is, but when you think about it makes a whole lot of sense, as the answer is there in front of you the whole time.

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Did Square say that or did Square-Enix say that?

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Originally Posted by Haha_YouAint

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Originally Posted by MJN SEIFER

Jenova controlling Sephiroth does make some level of sense, but Square have apperently stated that it is another way around - Sephiroth takes control of Jenova, who appears as Sephiroth, it sounds more confusing than it is, but when you think about it makes a whole lot of sense, as the answer is there in front of you the whole time.

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Did Square say that or did Square-Enix say that?

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Whoever wrote Ultimania said it. I have never read Ultimania so I don't know how it's worded - I never will read Ultimania because from what I hear everything it "explains" I already got from the game (such as the identity of the clones).

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Originally Posted by MJN SEIFER

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Originally Posted by Haha_YouAint

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Originally Posted by MJN SEIFER

Jenova controlling Sephiroth does make some level of sense, but Square have apperently stated that it is another way around - Sephiroth takes control of Jenova, who appears as Sephiroth, it sounds more confusing than it is, but when you think about it makes a whole lot of sense, as the answer is there in front of you the whole time.

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Did Square say that or did Square-Enix say that?

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Whoever wrote Ultimania said it. I have never read Ultimania so I don't know how it's worded - I never will read Ultimania because from what I hear everything it "explains" I already got from the game (such as the identity of the clones).

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Oh. Unless it came directly from Sakaguchi, I wouldn't take it seriously. But then again, I've never read the Ultimania, so it's easy for me to say that.

This is all interesting speculation, I've never thought about the charactization of Sephiroth like this. I've just went with the idea that Sephiroth went insane and perhaps even he didn't know his own motives before they were given to him by "his mother" who told him what to do. I also think it didn't help that Hojo started this whole thing in the first place with his experiment, putting cells of Jenova into Sephiroth was a dangerous thing to do, but at the same time, I think Hojo has been insane to begin with and therefore, he wanted his experiment in Sephiroth to suceed what no matter what, a more sane person would work to help Cloud stop Sephiroth, rather than aid Sephiroth as he's trying to destroy the Planet with an ancient forbidden magic.

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Originally Posted by Darth Cid

they were given to him by "his mother" who told him what to do.

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I will answer this with your own quote:

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Originally Posted by Darth Cid

This is all interesting speculation

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But, if we go by all the information presented to us in the original game and other Compilation titles, wrong speculation.

While the interpretations here range into the awesome and onwards, I feel a little compelled to rain on the parade... Sorry.

Wazzat about the rain? Well, see, all of these interpretations involve a lot of effort/thinking on our side, with hardly any hints in the game itself (debatable, okay, especially considering the translation). Either Square's authors are veeeery very subtle and trying as hard as you like, or such theories is pure guess-work. Considering the medium of delivery, I question the likelihood that Square aimed such an in-depth philosophical reasoning at the people who were likely to own a Playstation. Maybe the market looks different in Japan (What? People old enough to go to a bar, owning PSXes??), I don't know, but for such intricate interpretations to be true, the storytelling has to be unbelievably ambitious... At any rate, I don't believe it. :p

Perhaps trying to get intricate about the plot can sometimes lead to grasping at straws, but I don't think that's a bad thing. No one ever said that these theories were supposed to be what the writers intended. It's more like they are trying to make sense of the events that are presented, within the restrictions of the work itself. Often writers don't consider everything, and if no explanation is made by the author then I think it is valid to try to reason one. To use a good quote:

"A narrator should not supply interpretations of his work; otherwise he would not have written a novel, which is a machine for generating interpretations."
—Umberto Eco, postscript to The Name Of The Rose

They didn't have Playstations back then so just replace "novel" with "narrative." Anyway to add my two cents I do think that Sephiroth was the one in control, while at the same time he was executing Jenova's will. basically Jenova was the one with the goal (absorb all life) and Sephiroth was the one with the power (after he took control of Jenova) but it turns out he wanted to do the same thing Jenova wanted to do anyway. Considering that her will was passed on genetically it still holds up to say that Jenova's will was carried out even if Sephiroth was the one doing so. I think that's the extent of Jenova's control on him and I don't think the Ultimania's words are compromised by it. Sephiroth was basically an "evolved" form of Jenova. Not Like he literally evolved from her because his creation was artificial, but in the same vein. The reason Sephiroth is better than Jenova is because he can come up with plots like a human. Plots such as crashing a giant rock into the planet to make it gather all the life up and then hopping in and absorbing it. Jenova was more animalistic in her methods. So Sephiroth is the one calling the shots but he's still just doing what his biology tells him to, even if he wants the same thing consciously. Most likely it's a combination of both the influence of Jenova and his own desire for power. Either way Jenova wins. Until they both get a buster sword to the face.

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Originally Posted by MJN SEIFER

it could have all been avoided, if the Jenova Experiment had never took place.

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Actually, it could have been avoided simply by keeping Sephiroth away from those Mako reactors and any of Hojo's research notes. If they hadn't opted to use Sephiroth as the weapon to win the war against Wutai... if instead he'd been allowed to live a semblance of a normal life, there's absolutely no way he'd have become an ego-maniacal sociopath even on his worst day (at least not without some massive mind-freak manipulation).

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Originally Posted by silentenigma

One possible interpretation is that as Sephiroth learns more and more, he becomes increasingly deranged, self-glorifying, and thus more hateful towards humanity altogether. He is obsessed with the thought of their inferiority and his own entitlement as a superior being. And while I believe this to be true, I don't think it's the whole story. After all, Sephiroth is a very sensible man before the Nibelheim incident - yet in a short time frame, he completely loses it.

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The same is true for Light Yagami of Death Note. Though it may be the knowledge that having used the Death Note, he'll neither go to heaven nor hell that dips his sanity in the wrong direction.

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It appears that deep down, Sephiroth was indeed doing Jenova's bidding all along. This does not necessarily mean that he was being manipulated directly by Jenova. Still, the Jenova inside him did take advantage of his mind at a time of weakness, causing him to 'inherit' the will of Jenova, a condition from which he never recovered. This remained a constant subconscious goal of Sephiroth, even though his surface-level motivations later changed. Sephiroth was not directly controlled by Jenova like some unconscious puppet; rather, as I believe Squall of Seed once put it, he in a sense "became Jenova."

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Kind of like a soldier who is the lone survivor of his tortured unit and develops cancer to top off the crap that's been slung onto his life. Jenova is a disease that warps the mind, seeding it with a voice that convinces the victim that the horrible thing they're about to do is actually what they desire most. The best manipulators convince people that it was their decision to do horrible things regardless of what leverage the manipulator may have earlier had. So, basically, Sephiroth gave in to the Jenova will, it's desire, it's instinct. He had his own ideas on how to accomplish the end goal and that's what truly distinguishes Sephiroth from Jenova, but as it stands, he fell before the will of Jenova because he was weak... he was weak because he was alone. Unlike Cloud who had Tifa to guide him through his problems. Most people see Tifa as one of those "friend-types" who tag along but don't really serve a purpose, but even if Aerith had lived, she wouldn't have been able to reassure Cloud of his identity in the Lifestream. Without Tifa in the game, Cloud may have very well became a "second Sephiroth" as the in-game characters would call him regardless of whether they realize it's an insult because Cloud would have become a harsher villain than Sephiroth ever could be. lol

Actually, I believe it was the fact that Genesis remembered his family that his humanity remained mostly intact and maybe this is what drove him to become more of an annoyance than an actual villain.

New VII Vision concept:
main storyline villains: Genesis, Weiss, Cloud, Sephiroth
main storyline hero: Zack... go!

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Originally Posted by I think it was Mercen-X , but I'm not sure

Actually, it could have been avoided simply by keeping Sephiroth away from those Mako reactors and any of Hojo's research notes. If they hadn't opted to use Sephiroth as the weapon to win the war against Wutai... if instead he'd been allowed to live a semblance of a normal life, there's absolutely no way he'd have become an ego-maniacal sociopath even on his worst day (at least not without some massive Zack).

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Very well put, I think you may have it right here.