Are the newer releases really getting worse???

I can't claim to have played all the older games. In fact I've only played psp remake of FF1 and the DS remake of FFIII when it comes to pre-playstation games. I enjoyed them both a lot but the stories were a little flat.

The later games obviously have the advantage of some pretty spectacular graphics (that's pretty much why I like XIII actually) but are they all really so terrible? Why am I constantly hearing about how FF fans consider the games to be getting worse?

Personally, I love IX the best and after that it's a toss up between X and VII. We have voice acting now and although there were points in X that made me cringe it's gotten better. There is a complexity to the characters now that you just didn't have before.

I just want to see what everyone else thinks because I don't trust the reviews I'm reading. I know the combat in XII sucked and i know that XIII was linear but they (well XIII anyway) were still fun to play. So talk to me people. :greenie:

I don't think they're worse, just different. Some people like potatoes better than tomatoes is all.

(X, XII, and XIII are some of my favorites in the series!)

yeah it's all gone downhill after Square merged with Enix. FF13 sucks so much, it makes 12 look like a good game.

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Originally Posted by catfish

I know the combat in XII sucked and i know that XIII was linear but they (well XIII anyway) were still fun to play. So talk to me people. :greenie:

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Wait what? The combat in XII was easily the best part of the game and one of the better systems in the entire series. The gameplay in XIII was pretty much the opposite; monotonous, shallow and lacking much player involvement on any level.

But I digress. To address the topic, the newer releases aren't getting strictly worse. FFX is weaker than IX and some of the pre-PSX games, and XIII is quite arguably the worst game I've played in the entire series, but XII was a fun game despite some pacing issues. But to be fair, FFVII isn't without a myriad of issues and FFVIII was pretty craptastic. Meanwhile, FFVI had a pretty unbalanced battle system, and I could probably keep going about other games in the series.

So while I may have enjoyed one particular recent entry far less than the older stuff, the entire series is a bit of a mixed bag. Even at it's best it has issues and flaws which are pretty hard to deny. I will say I think the SNES titles are generally superior in terms of game design, story, and any other measure available than most of the recent titles, but my love for FFXII keeps me from lumping everything together. How about we just say that Kitase needs to retire and leave it at that?

It's cool to be rebellious :eep:, they just saw the loss of momentum and took the chance to bash it.

IMO, there is legitimate issues With the series but that the case with most of RPGs unless people just love to overlook the flaws of some games and bash other ones which is the case most of time :eep:.

FFXIII had me constantly shifting things around during battle, even if I was using Auto fairly often! One of the reasons I like the newer ones so much is that before FFX, I was only using Attack, Cure, and the occasional item during battle until whatever I was fighting was dead, with maybe a couple of super bosses per game as an exception. It wasn't really until FFX that I found it practical to use other abilities in battle, and FFXII and FFXIII were the only ones where I had to really think about what I was doing.

(Also, it struck me as funny that I am currently doing the FFXII Negalmuur trick while reading a post about how unlike FFXII, FFXIII has little player involvement. The controller and TV aren't even on.)

Pick and choose your reasons. All I can say is that its hard for me to care about the plot or the characters anymore. And a battle system can't be my sole reason to enjoy an RPG. Ever. I grew up and needed more. And the series shifted in a direction that no longer provides for me on a narative level. If you enjoy it, its all gravy. But the people like me feel left behind and neglected by Square. They try to keep plots and characters cliche, juvenile, and without much gravitational drama. At least in my opinion. But like has been mentioned in a few other threads. Square admits that they're aiming their games at tweens and young adults, and catering the lowest common denominator. They don't take a lot of artistic risks and the company is run by bureaucrats rather than visionaries (I'm just summarizing a lot of arguments I agree with, each person has their own reasons though)

Saying they are getting worse would be very subjective. They're definitely getting different, though.

imo, they hit rock bottom with 12, so technically they are actually getting marginally better as 13 wasn't too bad, but still not nearly as spectacular as IV to X

Hard to say and it really depends on the person your asking. I hate FFXIII but thought XII easily wiped the floor with it's previous X. I think different is probably the best term, and some will roll with it and some will hop off the train. But also..what's it getting worse than anyway? In my list the games always seem to slide back and forth on which one is better or worse than the title prior.

FF1-Better (Than something)
FF2-Worse
FF3-Better
FF4-Better
FF5-Worse
FF6-Better
FF7-Worse
FF8-Worse
FF9-Better
FF10-Worse
FF11-Uhh hmm wha..?
FF12-Better
FF13-Worse
FF14-Ummm why is an MMO is this series again?

I'm probably one of the few who have played and liked all of them (except XIV which hasn't come out for PS3 yet). Like Levian said, better or worse is entirely subjective, but one thing you can say for sure is that they are becoming different. XIII is much more different than X than IX is to VII (different systems, but you see my point). Since many of the older fans fell in love with and became used to the style they used for so many years, there was a good chance many would not like this new direction. There are still many fans of the newer games, and I'm sure there are even some who hated the old games but love XII and XIII.

I'll agree its more a matter of being subjective. In terms of the main series, some are definetly better than other but it really wasn't until X that I felt Square made a dud, as the game felt rather mediocre to me. I don't care for the MMO entries, not so much because of any quality issues as much as its just my dislike for that particular medium. If FF went into a sporting game or FPS route I would feel the same. Though I'm still a noob with XI, I can say that it is fun just not my cup of tea.

XII was a step in the right direction for me cause I felt the game took risks that were worth taking. It still has the best world design imho, and probably one of the most flexible battle systems in the series. It was also the only entry I felt really tried to stray from the cliches that were choking the genre at the time. Though, even I will admit that XII doesn't live up to its full potential but even with that issue I still feel it was better than several entries in the series.

XIII is just... awful and mostly a fine example of what's been wrong with SE for the last decade. The writing is boring, gutless, predictable, and irrelevant. The battle system takes the worst aspects of the series history and mostly feels like you're just pressing a button to watch a cutscene battle as opposed to feeling like you're actually making a real difference beyond keeping health up. While the game is visually stunning the world design is restrictive and confining. Destroying any illusion you may have felt about being in a real place, just simply a tourist on a guided tour, with no hope of getting lost on a deserted island with the Skipper. ;)

I think what made me really sad was the revelation that the last FF that really challenged a player to think beyond stupid crap like battle strategies, "shipping", and "who has the most awesome hair"; was Tactics Advance. A game reviled by many for its "childish" nature but really the games deeper themes have actually gotten the most mature discussion on this forum for years. The game actually challenges the player to think about something that actually has some value in the real world. That is what is missing in the series. Its unwillingness to grow up, and talk about something that might actually make a real world impact by changing the players perspective by making them think of deeper feelings. Most of the series mature elements are hidden behind childish interpretations, black and white idealism, and mostly exists for plot convenince as opposed to actually being meaningful. FF has the ability to transcend itself and become art, but it settles for being cheap entertainment instead.

I haven't played XIII yet so I can't really say if that one is better or worse than the previous games, but I can say they were all great up to that point.

The battle system in XII is awesome, btw.

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Originally Posted by Jessweeee♪

I don't think they're worse, just different. Some people like potatoes better than tomatoes is all.

(X, XII, and XIII are some of my favorites in the series!)

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I think this is exactly it. I can definitely see how the newer games would appeal to a different type of player than the older ones. I didn't think FFXII and XIII were bad games, I just happened to lose interest in them fairly quickly.

I am not sure if I would say that the releases of the Final Fantasy series are getting progressively worse. I want to throw the possibility out there, though, that this could be related to increased turnaround time between each title.

Final Fantasy had three entries for its first few consoles: Nintendo, Super Nintendo, and Playstation, and followed it up by creating a massively multiplayer online role-playing game during its Playstation 2 era. That left the only regular titles in the series to be Final Fantasy X and Final Fantasy XII. Perhaps the latest titles fall under more scrutiny because the online entries are seen as a different type of game and there is less material to spread around? Out of Final Fantasy VII, Final Fantasy VIII, and Final Fantasy IX, someone will surely enjoy at least one of those titles.

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Originally Posted by Roogle

I am not sure if I would say that the releases of the Final Fantasy series are getting progressively worse. I want to throw the possibility out there, though, that this could be related to increased turnaround time between each title.

Final Fantasy had three entries for its first few consoles: Nintendo, Super Nintendo, and Playstation, and followed it up by creating a massively multiplayer online role-playing game during its Playstation 2 era. That left the only regular titles in the series to be Final Fantasy X and Final Fantasy XII. Perhaps the latest titles fall under more scrutiny because the online entries are seen as a different type of game and there is less material to spread around? Out of Final Fantasy VII, Final Fantasy VIII, and Final Fantasy IX, someone will surely enjoy at least one of those titles.

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it's not the online games that made 12 and 13 worse in the things that made the FF series great, such as narrative, characters and world building. There's no denying that these things were handled very differently in these entries compared to the previous games in the series.

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Originally Posted by kotora

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Originally Posted by Roogle

I am not sure if I would say that the releases of the Final Fantasy series are getting progressively worse. I want to throw the possibility out there, though, that this could be related to increased turnaround time between each title.

Final Fantasy had three entries for its first few consoles: Nintendo, Super Nintendo, and Playstation, and followed it up by creating a massively multiplayer online role-playing game during its Playstation 2 era. That left the only regular titles in the series to be Final Fantasy X and Final Fantasy XII. Perhaps the latest titles fall under more scrutiny because the online entries are seen as a different type of game and there is less material to spread around? Out of Final Fantasy VII, Final Fantasy VIII, and Final Fantasy IX, someone will surely enjoy at least one of those titles.

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it's not the online games that made 12 and 13 worse in the things that made the FF series great, such as narrative, characters and world building. There's no denying that these things were handled very differently in these entries compared to the previous games in the series.

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Characters and narrative, maybe even thought i don't agree but what is the point from world building ? In this day and age, i have seen a lot of FF fans who prefer static pre-rendered backgrounds for the future of the Final Fastasy series :eep:.

No, just FFXIV.
XIII was fantastic.

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Originally Posted by ShinGundam

i have seen a lot of FF fans who prefer static pre-rendered backgrounds for the future of the Final Fastasy series :eep:.

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Its never something I usually consider, but I have to agree. And having thought about it, I'd choose to be one of those people. There's just something charming or deeply atmospheric when they do that properly

The way backgrounds have been rendered has absolutely nothing to do with world building. It's about the substance not the style

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Originally Posted by Vyk

Square admits that they're aiming their games at tweens and young adults, and catering the lowest common denominator. They don't take a lot of artistic risks and the company is run by bureaucrats rather than visionaries.

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Yes.. ever since Sakaguchi left, in my opinion. (And now look at that new game he's making... I think that looks much more like art than demographic-targetting)

The series had a near flawless track record up until FFXIII where they cocked it all up.

It's been so up and down for me that I could hardly say it's getting better or worse. I can say I haven't cared about a game in a while, but I never did try XII.

I've liked them all so far, though I haven't beaten IX, X, or XII. IX, I never got very far because the battle was SO SLOW, but good otherwise. X just didn't drag me in, in anyway, but it wasn't bad. XII there was just so much to do that I never got around to beating it... lol

Beaten the rest, enjoyed all of them as well. Though I haven't played much of XI, and hopefully after they fix XIV, it will be better too.

Of course, they all had their highs and lows
I - Nothing excels about this game, but nothing falls short either, it was a great starter game to the series and a great RPG to get me hooked on them the rest of my life.
II - Hated the leveling system, pretty good story and characters though
III - Great battle/customization of characters, story was meh
IV - Definitely a story driven game, I hated the fact that your characters were determined for you. It's the first game that had 0 customization of characters/Battle team.
V - Back to tons of customization, and one of the best to date. There's so many possibilities for you characters it was just amazing.
VI - Story driven again. Slight character customization. More focused on party customization. Loved this game
VII - Good Story, pretty good customization, only real difference between characters was Limit Breaks.
VIII - Lots more customizing of characters. Very hard system for some to grasp, but Junctioning is one of my favorite to date. Story was a bit all over the place, but I loved playing it.
IX - Back to set classes for characters and focus on party customization. Better than 4 in that you get to pick your party, not as good as VI in terms of how many. Didn't get far enough to say anything about story, but I definitely want to find time to play through this.
X - Sphere grid and party choice for full customization. Characters were probably the big low in this game.
XI - Online
XII - Full customization again, cool new battle system, amazing grand story. Definitely one of my other favorites in the series.
XIII - Very fast paced battle system. Extra stuff at the end requires you actually pay attention as opposed to auto like everyone complains about. Linear, but lots of stuff to do after you beat it if you enjoyed the battle system, which I did. Customization was moderate of both characters and party.

4 games stand out for me:
V cause of the class system
VI cause of the story/characters
VIII cause of the battle system/junctioning
and XII cause of, well most everything.

THE JACKEL

I'm not going to get into a tit for tat of unsupported statements about which games were good and bad, but I will say that FF9 was the last game that I found to be excellent. I enjoyed FF10, but not on the same extent I had for other titles, and from then onwards installments have been fairly mediocre to me.

So for my tastes the series has certainly gone downhill.

Wow, loads of replies. =O
I appreciate the response and yeah I guess it is pretty much a matter of opinion. I've been kind of scared that maybe Squeenix should quit with the main FF series games since the impression I've been getting is that fewer people are enjoying these newer releases. Plus they have 14 main series games now. I like that it's so huge that they can acheive that kind of figure but at the same time if it continues isn't it going to get a little silly? FFXX??? Will it ever get there? Will it be rubbish? Who knows!?

Personally I've really enjoyed every FF I've played with the exception of XII and that was only because i never got all that far into it because the battle system annoyed me too much. I'm just worried that although in my opinion the games are not getting worse that maybe they will start to and maybe that is because they are gonna start throwing them out left, right and centre. I hope not but I really am concerned.

Final Fantasy wants to be like the Superbowl or Wrestlemania Final Fantasy XIX

It irks me when people say the first FF was unremarkable because when I was 9 years old and playing both FF1 and Zelda on the NES I got for Xmas they both seemed EPIC compared to other NES titles such as Mario Bros. Because in fact it was. It was a phenomenal game at the time.

I actually hated Final Fantasy X the first time I played it. I remember being as hurt and confused as many seem to be when it comes to XIII. However, I kept faith and kept playing it, wondering when the game was going to open up and if Tidus was ever going to stop being so damn annoying... But along the way I started to appreciate the battle system, weapon upgrade system, and sphere grid. This game had taken it to the next level... Break HP damage! Finally, Final Fantasy was getting serious about its customization and battle mechanics. Also, there is a ton of end game content.

I was apphrensive about XII because of the battle system but I eventually was impressed by it too. Besides, XII has 150 hours of extra content outside of the story and some of the most amazing fantasy dungeons and areas ever created. I am proud of the FF fans that see how great this is. It seems many FF fans cant appreciate a brilliant, open world RPG game with tons of content but hey...to each their own!

Final Fantasy XIII is a beautiful game but its level design is a flaw.... Much of the levels are corridors, ramps, and trails... However, XIII is otherwise a technical marvel! The graphics make other games this generation look dated and the battle AI is nearly flawless. It takes a grand amount of precision to make a flashy, fast paced battle system such as the paradigm system run so smoothly. However, the decision to leave out towns, and mini games made the games pacing unfavorable for many people.

The last three Final Fantasy games have the best battle systems. The ATB and CT battle system were more "bare bones" versions in the past and have been expanded on in the past 3 offline main series installments.

I can't say it's getting worse. XIII was not the generation-defining masterpiece it could have been, far from it, but it's still a good game.

I can't comment on the online entries, but X and XII are two of my favorite games, ever.

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Originally Posted by kotora

The way backgrounds have been rendered has absolutely nothing to do with world building. It's about the substance not the style

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I disagree. The change in perspective and artistic direction has a huge impact on how the player experiences the narrative and gameplay. One may prefer one style over the other, but to say style itself has absolutely nothing to do with world building is probably not right.

Small example: I feel the environments of X, XII and XIII are all gorgeously rendered, but I still think the explorable artwork of VII, VIII and IX was much more compelling. VII's in particular sometimes tells the story better than the dialogue (which, at times, isn't hard).

When it comes down to it, the former is standard adventure-style perspective that almost every game does these days, while the latter is something that Square did very uniquely and very well. They also did 2D graphics very well - so much so that lots of fans frothed irrationally when pre-rendered backgrounds were introduced in VII.

They way the backgrounds are rendered matters very little (to me at lease) but it is the way that you are viewing them that is important. For the majority of FF10-13 you are looking at the backside of your characters and are, from pre PS2 standards, fairly close. I think that this is why despite the games looking terrific when I take time to look at the scenery I wasn't really wowed with the environments over all. In FF13 when the camera position moved out and stopped showing my my ass I usually ended up thinking 'wow, this place looks cool'. With pre-rendered backgrounds the environment was much more prominent than the characters, but there isn't a reason they can't do that with rendered backgrounds.

Playing through PS1 titles again I am reminded how 'tunnel like' most of the dungeons actually are. However because the camera is static you are moving through the dungeon in all directions instead of just pressing forwards the entire way. It makes me wonder if FF13 would have been more palatable to fans if they switched to a static camera and control system like in the PS1 days.

FF1-Revolutionary
FF2-Good
FF3-About as good
FF4-Better
FF5-Better
FF6-Better
FF7-Better
FF8-Worse
FF9-Better
FF10-Better
FF11-???
FF12-Worse
FF13-Worse yet
FF14-???

>>> FFX is the latest good FF out there..:luca:

I hate all life on Mars.

Seriously, who besides the Japanese has time to play MMOFF11&14?
I still haven't completed I, II, IV, V, VI. Never played III. I've been neglecting XII for thousands of unrelated reasons. I'll never play 11&14 unless they release a single-player game that I only have to pay for once to play.
I finished VII and VIII and they were good. I could barely start Tactics; the damned opening sequence is too long and slow and can't be skipped. I haven't tried T Advance. I finished IX and it was great. I finished X and it was... well, yeah okay. I finished X-2 and it was good. I haven't played any of the remakes. I finished DoC and it was good. I almost finished CC (I was so damned close when my PSP broke) and it was good. I'll never play BC unless they release a PSP/DS/Console version (I also doubt anyone else will since BC ain't compatible with American phones AFAIK). I kind of wish they'd release a playable version of AC. And a VII that details the missing year. The novella bugged me. I'm so off topic now.

Let's see here. I think where the player first started playing doesn't matter much. I'm the example of someone who has jumped around quite a bit in this series. I went in this order

IX (My Favorite)
X (Liked this one)
VIII (Enjoyed This)
X-2 (Was OK)
IV (Really liked it)
VII (Meh)
XII (Really liked it, but only for the gameplay and not the story)
VI (Disappointed)
Next two are most likely going to be
V
XIII

I'm not sure if I can really speak on it. I have only played eight games out of the series and always had another to play while I was waiting for a new one. I also can't speak on XI, XIII, or XIV either, but going by general opinions I am a bit worried.

Hm. I've played some while watching videos of others. Here's my rating:

I -- Played and passed. Dungeons were quite long, and had to step outside and use a Tent to save the game. After that, start all over. Otherwise, good.
II -- Played and passed. Loved the storyline and battle system. I read how many people hate the battle system, but to me it's a great challenge if you want to pass the game underleveled (took me about 20-30 minutes to beat the last boss in this manner in my first playthrough).
III -- Never played, although it looks promising.
IV -- Never played, but the battle system was good. Especially Kain's Jump attack.
V -- Never played, but I loved the story and the different possibilities you could have with each character in terms of customization. Plus, GILGAMESH!
VI -- Haven't played it, but some things were unique about it (only FF game I've seen that had a chainsaw). Good in terms of gameplay and story.
VII -- Never played it and never will, so I have no opinion about it.
VIII -- Played but never passed. Missing Disc 1. I don't know about you guys, but the Draw game mechanic was actually fun for me. Music was good, too.
IX -- Played and passed. Favorite game in the series, although I agree with most people Trance could have been better. Still, it played a part in the story at one point, so sometimes I think it's fine the way it is.
X -- Played and passed. Good game, too. Although this is where I learned that maxing out all character stats tends to be long and boring. (So, the only way to beat Penance and other superbosses like Nemesis is to inflict 99,999 damage on each turn and being on Auto-Haste. I liked it better when you actually have a strategy, because this seems pretty linear to me).
XI -- Was never into online gaming, so no comment.
XII -- Haven't played it, but the battle system okay. It wasn't as bad as people say it is. Plus, I'd love to see what it's all about, so it could be my next FF.
XIII -- I've read mainly negative reviews about this one, like no Holy, Flare or Meteor, and every save point in every location, and a Chocobo mini-game that actually sucked. Perhaps the battle system and graphics are what save this game from oblivion, and also the fact that Lightning is just Cloud in a different world and gender, but I think that's it.

My overall opinion on the entire series is that some games have more pros than cons, and vice versa. Some focus more on the story than everything else (like I heard about XII). Some people say that certain mechanics are unnecessary (like Draw or Trance). The series has changed as better graphics were discovered, and XIII is proof of that. Since SE is aiming for younger audiences (like WWE has), it'll lose some fans while they make better profits.

Personally, I think better graphics should be a minor priority. I mean, look at the older installments. There's a reason some veteran fans of the series are P.O.'d because of te newer games, and that's because games like IV and VII were just GOOD!

The series was practically perfect up until XI. Never really got the whole online thing. X was fantastic. By XII, there was signs that the series was changing, but I still love the game. Final Fantasy XIII is currently the worst game I have ever bought for any console that I have owned. I just found it so mind-blowingly boring. You had no choice in anything In the game. I'll agree it is subjective and everyone will hold their own opinion, but I just didn't get the game at all.

I really hope XV go's back to its roots and produce's another gem like VI or IX for example.

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Originally Posted by Zeon

XIII -- I've read mainly negative reviews about this one, like no Holy, Flare or Meteor, and every save point in every location, and a Chocobo mini-game that actually sucked. Perhaps the battle system and graphics are what save this game from oblivion, and also the fact that Lightning is just Cloud in a different world and gender, but I think that's it.

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Lightning only looks like Cloud with pink hair. She wishes she was an interesting character like Cloud was.

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Originally Posted by Rocket Edge

The series was practically perfect up until XI. Never really got the whole online thing. X was fantastic. By XII, there was signs that the series was changing, but I still love the game. Final Fantasy XIII is currently the worst game I have ever bought for any console that I have owned. I just found it so mind-blowingly boring. You had no choice in anything In the game. I'll agree it is subjective and everyone will hold their own opinion, but I just didn't get the game at all.

I really hope XV go's back to its roots and produce's another gem like VI or IX for example.

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I agree with just about everything in this entire post, except I have found worst games than XIII. It's by far the weakest link of FF, and a lot of other games I've played, but I have played some down right crappier crap crapsters.

Oh, there are definately worse games than FF XIII in existence (the AVGN could show you a few), but if there are worse FF games than XIII, now that's open for debate.

Mystic Quest used to be considered the worst..