Voting with your wallet - Localization

I'll preface this by saying I'm generally against game piracy. I go the great lengths to own a legit copy of any game I can. I believe that we vote with our dollars and I especially like the idea of financially supporting developers that are making the kinds of games I like...even more so when they are small or indie dev studios.

However, I've just finished Hotel Dusk and want to play Last Window. Last Window was localized for Europe, but not released in the US (I guess there weren't enough guns and military junk... or perhaps just too much text to appeal to the broader US audience). Of course considering Cing went under I don't necessarily fault them for this as I don't know the particulars. I am not likely to pay the substantial cost to import a copy of Last Window, but I'm going to play it.

Where the quandary really shows up is with games like Mother 3. Do you import the game in Japanese just to feel good that you have a legit copy so that you're perhaps not technically breaking the law when playing a translation? Doesn't this mean you're voting with your wallet in support of a company that refuses to provide the game for you. When the money gets to them from your import purchase they don't know that it was from a US fan. They are having their cake and eating it too.

I understand that there are practical business reasons for not localizing some games, but I have to say that I cease to feel guilty about pirating a game when the studio doesn't release it in my region. The second Last Window hits the US (on the 3rd of never) I'll buy my legal copy. The second Seiken Densetsu 3 gets a legit localization I'll fork over my money for that even though I finished it around a decade ago.

I'm with you, I won't pay the extra prices for importing.

And i'm especially with you on Seiken Densetsu 3, cause that game is the :bou::bou::bou::bou:.

Pretty much agree with you. Frankly, I see no reason to even purchase an imported copy unless it were in english and reasonably priced. Especially when it comes to older titles because unless it's still being published you're really just buying a used copy that supports no one but the guy selling it.

The way I see it, piracy when, there's no option to legitimately support something in the first place, can't really be considered piracy.

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Originally Posted by Vivi22

Pretty much agree with you. Frankly, I see no reason to even purchase an imported copy unless it were in english and reasonably priced. Especially when it comes to older titles because unless it's still being published you're really just buying a used copy that supports no one but the guy selling it.

The way I see it, piracy when, there's no option to legitimately support something in the first place, can't really be considered piracy.

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With Last Window it could be argued that the price is reasonable (around $50 at some places) for an import EU copy. I kinda don't feel that it's reasonable, but it could be argued that I should be honor bound to pay significantly more than the average DS game cost since it is at least available in English.

I guess that combined with the developer apparently going under makes the morality of it less clear cut. Frankly, I probably would pirate it myself if only because I doubt many of the people who worked on it will get much support from another sale now, assuming it's even still in production, and I can't see myself paying $50 for any hand held game (just way too much if you ask me). But if you wanted to have a physical copy I'd say you probably won't get a better price for something that will probably only get rarer from here.

I rarely pirate games these days. Most of the games I play are on consoles and I don't like the idea of chipping personally. As for PC games, I only pirate games that I am interested in but not going to pay for. If I do enjoy a game enough, I buy it anyway - as was the case with Crysis.

I think they should release more demos like they used to. This is something which can allow people to try a game before they buy it. If they did this with more PC games out there, I'd definitely pirate even less.

I think I've pirated about 3-4 PC games in the last three years, and have probably downloaded a couple of ROMs. I only recall one of them, though (FFV, which I will inevitably buy at some point as I really enjoy it, but hopefully not on the existing console options).

If there is a game that is simply not available in my area, I will first check to see if it's going to be available in my area (ie is in development or is an inevitable release on PSN etc) and if not, then I'll pirate it. A good example of a game not available where I am is Xenogears. It's available in North America but not Europe. I have no idea why this is.

With digital distribution and a globalizing economy, as far as I am concerned there is no excuse not to release things worldwide. Why do you think even Final Fantasy has simultaneous global releases now, when Squaresoft used to be among the worst offenders? I have no sympathy for those who don't adapt to the situation and I have no compunction about pirating something that they aren't giving me a legitimate avenue of purchasing.

I agree with everyone here about pirating video games that simply aren't made available to through reasonable means. Whether it's a release limited by region, or if it's simply such an old game you can't find it. Usually at that point the system it's on is also a relic.

What about pirating games that are simply not worth the 40 quid investment? I'm looking at you, FIFA $NUM/Black Cops

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Originally Posted by Old Manus

What about pirating games that are simply not worth the 40 quid investment? I'm looking at you, FIFA $NUM/Black Cops

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This gets into a grey area (that I think I have already flirted with). What a game is worth is extremely subjective. You could justify every instance of piracy by following this line to its ultimate conclusion.

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Red Dead Redemption isn't worth $60. I'll pirate it.

Super Meat Boy has old school graphics and isn't worth $15. I'll pirate it.

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The reason I find this most suspect is that a non-developer is far from the best person to judge how much the work of countless people is worth.


Where my particular situation specifically departs from this is that I don't think the cost of importing on top of the game's retail price is worth it for me to grab Last Window legitimately. Simultaneously, I feel that I'm punishing a publisher for not putting the game out in my region. I don't want to reward them with my cash if they don't want to release in my region. As someone noted, this is a little more borderline considering the company went under and that's probably largely to blame for the lack of NA localization.

However, to me that essentially moves it into the dead console category. I pirate very old games and games that are very rare without much guilt. I'm not exactly helping the publishers or developers when I spent $80+ on a GBA or DS game simply because it's rare as crap due to a limited production run. Hell, buying second hand doesn't do them any favors either.


I'd love to move more toward digital distribution (as much as I love boxes) simply because I'll be happier giving more to the makers and less to the retailers. It sickens me that a retailer gets roughly 12 bucks from a 60 dollar game.

Then there's the old "rare" games that some collectors jack the price up on.

I'm looking at you Super Mario RPG. A used copy averages $50 bucks. What?!?

Go price a new copy in the box. :roll2

EDIT: yeargdribble beat me to this point, but it's a valid one

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Originally Posted by Yeargdribble

It sickens me that a retailer gets roughly 12 bucks from a 60 dollar game.

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Not only that but they'll happily buy it back from you for half what it's worth if you're lucky and resell it at $5 off the price of a new copy.

I agree that they can overdo it, but at the same time I keep in mind that these same retailers are the ones that allow people in my locality to have jobs. Not only that, they allow me to get physical copies of games easier and faster (early pre-ordered deliveries excepted). And despite their pricing, they still close down fairly often, showing that despite what money they are supposedly making, they certainly aren't paying their employees a bucketload of cash so I'm not sure where the supposed money they are laundering is going to.

Just playing devil's advocate, really. Sometimes these 'evil' retailers can be pretty handy.

Imagine if Super Mario Bros 2 were never translated and imported from Japan to be playable in the SNES - what would you do? The only way is to buy a famicom and the game cartridge nowadays, or download a rom which takes a few minutes.

I'm not saying the reason to do it is cost (then you would basically say piracy is okay bc you are poor/lazy), but that I like to use nonsense to justify your position

I justify piracy the same way I justify driving a car or not voting. It may be harmful en mass, but no individual act of piracy has any apparent consequences. Therefore, I pirate without a guilty conscience.

I remember importing being a problem for Capcom when it came to localizing some entries in the Ace Attorney series. The fans wanted the games so bad that they paid extra to import the game, resulting in fewer sales in their own region when it was localized. Of course it's not really a problem when it's pretty clear that your region isn't ever getting the game.

I will probably end up importing Last Window, because I adored Hotel Dusk and neither of the two games will run on an emulator. And probably the Trace Memory sequel if I ever get around to getting my Wii back.

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Originally Posted by nik0tine

I justify piracy the same way I justify driving a car or not voting. It may be harmful en mass, but no individual act of piracy has any apparent consequences. Therefore, I pirate without a guilty conscience.

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That... doesn't seem like good justification.

But I'm with the "if they don't offer it in your region, pirate it" crew.

Nintendo has been pretty stupid about localization this generation. Especially with Cing. Localize Trace Memory and Hotel Dusk but leave their sequels to Europe, meaning their stories are incomplete in North America? Gee, thanks.

As for importing The Last Window, Elite Beat Agents pretty much only exists because people imported Ouendan so much. (But, then, Elite Beat Agents is a new game in the same style and Nintendo might rightly assume that the people importing The Last Window won't buy it a second time.) I'm considering importing it, but I'm not sure if I really want to play it without the great Treehouse script. Those guys do a stellar job.

If I was interested in Mother 3, I wouldn't buy a Japanese copy, though. I draw the line at buying games I can't even play.

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Originally Posted by Vivi22

The way I see it, piracy when, there's no option to legitimately support something in the first place, can't really be considered piracy.

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You... see it wrong, then. Whether it's morally ok in your opinion is one thing, but it is unquestionably piracy.

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Originally Posted by screaming onomatapeia

Where my particular situation specifically departs from this is that I don't think the cost of importing on top of the game's retail price is worth it for me to grab Last Window legitimately. Simultaneously, I feel that I'm punishing a publisher for not putting the game out in my region. I don't want to reward them with my cash if they don't want to release in my region. As someone noted, this is a little more borderline considering the company went under and that's probably largely to blame for the lack of NA localization.

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I don't think so. The game is done except for the North American script, which would be handled by Nintendo and not Cing. Plus, I'm fairly certain Nintendo owns the IP, considering Hotel Dusk was in Smash Bros. Brawl.

By the way, the last time I checked, it wasn't really clear what happened to Cing. They definitely went bankrupt but whether they simply closed up shop or stopped production on whatever the were working on or were secretly bought by someone isn't really known. The obvious idea would be for Nintendo to buy them but I don't know if they're really good enough to be a Nintendo-owned studio. Again was pretty frigging awful.

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Originally Posted by Peegee

Imagine if Super Mario Bros 2 were never translated and imported from Japan to be playable in the SNES - what would you do? The only way is to buy a famicom and the game cartridge nowadays, or download a rom which takes a few minutes.

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Well, these days, you can buy it for $6 on the Virtual Console. One of the great things about digital distribution of old games. I totally own legit copies of two Cho Aniki games. Woo!

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Originally Posted by Roto13

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Originally Posted by Vivi22

The way I see it, piracy when, there's no option to legitimately support something in the first place, can't really be considered piracy.

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You... see it wrong, then. Whether it's morally ok in your opinion is one thing, but it is unquestionably piracy.

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Didn't really intend that the way it sounded. I did mean that I see nothing morally wrong with it. It's what I get for posting within ten minutes of crawling out of bed I guess. I'm not really a morning person. :D

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Originally Posted by Jessweeee♪

I will probably end up importing Last Window, because I adored Hotel Dusk and neither of the two games will run on an emulator. And probably the Trace Memory sequel if I ever get around to getting my Wii back.

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I'm not sure I'm technically allowed to say this, but I'm playing Last Window now and it certainly works on an Acekard 2i (and I assume it would on an R4). I personally would save the money on the import and get something that will give you more options (NES/SNES/GB/Genesis/NDS).


Also, I'm gonna throw in with Roto in that I won't sanitize this. It's piracy period. Even the Mother 3 thing... even old NES games that are largely unavailable. Still, I justify some of these on a personal level.

You know what? Nintendo will get buckets and buckets of money from me when they set up a more Steam-like system. When I can use a centralized account to purchase VC titles and have them available on my Wii, DS, DSiXL and coming 3DS I will retroactively purchase every NES/SNES game that I've ever played through a ROM. Knowing that I can likely never transfer purchases is what has stopped me buying things on DSiWare, WiiWare and VC. PSN has got it a lot more right. I feel very comfortable buying from the PS Store.

I can't count the number of games that I've bought a second time on Steam (already owning a boxed copy) or bought knowing that I'd likely never play just because I enjoy owning it and enjoy having free access to it on any of my computers.

DSiWare is confirmed to be transferrable to the 3DS.

If they don't release it in my country, its their own fault.

THE JACKEL

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Originally Posted by Roto13

DSiWare is confirmed to be transferrable to the 3DS.

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This is good to hear. I hope they do the same for future consoles as well. I've put a stop to buying anything on my Wii due to the fact that I don't necessarily want those games being tied to the console for all time. That's a huge step backward from a disc/cart system where you can buy a new system and you still own all of your games. Same with Steam. I can buy a new computer or twelve new computers and my games will work on all of them.

Perhaps I'll be more lenient about DSiWare purchases, BUT they are (allegedly) be region locking 3DSs. F**k everything about that. If you ever did want to import you can GFY anyway.

Of course I feel like that type of decision is likely to goad more people toward piracy. Obviously there are people who are willing to import. What is Nintendo's logic on region locking? If people are willing to import make them buy a second, region specific 3DS? Unless that's a financial strategy (which is flawed) I can see no other good reason to do it.

They can pretend their 3DS will be iron-clad and piracy proof but they are silly and shortsighted if they believe that. Has there been a single device that hasn't been circumvented? PS3s have been hacked. Consoles can be modded. Every handheld of note has been used to play pirated games despite endless iterations of new software and firmware updates.


EDIT: Also, if the DSiWare is strictly transfer I already have a red flag up. That's like iTunes. Your house burned down? You had lots of backups on several HDDs and other computers but they were all lost in the fire? You had hundreds of dollars worth of purchases? Well, maybe we can help you... Oh wait... you used your one time redownload already. GFY!

This won't happen within Steam's business model. If my house burns down and I lose everything else the things I can recover are my Steam games and PSN titles (so far as I know).

Well by that logic you should only buy downloads since you'd lose all of your physical copies of games in the same fire.

I welcome that potentiality.

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Originally Posted by nik0tine

I justify piracy the same way I justify driving a car or not voting. It may be harmful en mass, but no individual act of piracy has any apparent consequences. Therefore, I pirate without a guilty conscience.

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Wait wait wait, you know as well as I do that many many people drive cars and even more people vote. So observation already disproves your justification. Unless I don't know, you argue that you alone are justified in driving and not voting and others aren't.

He isn't using logic, he is justifying being selfish. Don't bother trying to follow it.

I view every game purchase I make as voting with my wallet. Since piracy is so easy there is really no reason I would even need to pay for a game legitimately. However, I know the sting of a sequel not bing made because the first didn't sell well enough and it isn't something I want to contribute to. To that end I have also sworn off of buying used games, as I to me it isn't much different from piracy (except more expensive).

For me the importing isn't a big deal, but there are many other reasons I would pirate games. As others have mentioned I often use pirated games as demos for the real thing. I've actually played the ROM, done 100% of the optional content, then bought the original and just put it on my shelf unopened.

And in all honesty, gaming is a really cheap hobby.

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Originally Posted by VeloZer0

And in all honesty, gaming is a really cheap hobby.

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Perhaps compared with some others, or perhaps where you are, but not everywhere.

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Originally Posted by VeloZer0

I've actually played the ROM, done 100% of the optional content, then bought the original and just put it on my shelf unopened.

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I've done this many times.

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And in all honesty, gaming is a really cheap hobby.

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It seriously is. I hear Cheapy D say all the time that gaming is an expensive hobby. Why? Does he believe that? Is it an angle for his site? Is he just trying to make those who can't afford games feel better?

Compared to almost any other hobby you can't get any cheaper. Games have the best cost::enjoyment ratio out there almost without exception.

If you're a smart consumer the hobby gets even cheaper. That's what I like Cheapy's site (cheapassgamer.com). I shop for amazing deals on games I plan to buy or on games I'd like to own. I rarely buy on release day. The only times I do is when Amazon is giving a big credit for pre-order and then I'm essentially getting a day-one release on my door for $40. Most games I buy for consoles are in the $20-30 range because I'm patient. Hell, I've got dozens of other games to play. There's no reason I need to pay the early bird tax.

Then talk about Steam... I never buy a game that's not on sale. Sales are inevitable. If I just bide my time a little I'll save a bundle. Steam is a hop, skip and a jump away from literally paying me to take their games as ridiculous as their sales are.


EDIT: To Jiro's point, I could understand that in some places prices are less reasonable (hi2u Australia), but I think for most areas it's not that bad. Also, the rules of knowing how to shop smart apply everywhere so almost anyone can shop on a budget if they shop carefully.

Gaming can be cheap or expensive considering how you go about it.

For me, I get a lot of games on release day, for purposes of avoiding spoilers and any kind of enjoyable pre order bonus.

I don't like the Idea of renting, but there are a lot of games out there I want to play.

I've also payed for all 3 of the current gen systems, a DS, a DS light, and a slim PSP.

I almost never have less then 10 games on pre-order, and I pick up games I still need to play that have been out for a while fairly often, ModNation Racers most recently.

It may not be the most expensive hobby, and there may be cheaper ways to go about it, but it can add up in price fairly fast depending on the circumstances.

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Originally Posted by Yeargdribble

This gets into a grey area (that I think I have already flirted with). What a game is worth is extremely subjective. You could justify every instance of piracy by following this line to its ultimate conclusion.

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However, if a game is so priced (or you care so little about it) that you would not buy it under any circumstances, even if pirating was not an option, then there is no loss for any developer. I'm not sure how that can be condemned as immoral (though I understand the need for a more bright-line rule to determine legality).