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I've been reading a few articles on Western fans/developers take on the "Decline of the JRPG" genre and have been hearing some of the strangest solutions to the genre and mostly some ideas that sound pretty awful. So my question to thhe people of EoFF is what makes a game fun and good for you? This doesn't have to be about JRPGs per se but any genre that gives you enjoyment.
Well clearly you don't have a clue. :P
A game is good if I have fun when I play it.
Just because people don't agree with you doesn't make them wrong, I figured you'd be smart enough at this stage in life to realize this, act your age. :roll2Quote:
Originally Posted by Roto13
I was hoping for a more thoughtful answer, I'm asking about specifics, what creates the "fun" in it, is it story, mechanics, being able to do things you've never done, if it's the whole package what elements bring out the most fun for you? What initially attracts you to a game.Quote:
Originally Posted by Jessweeee♪
By giving you everything you expect and then something you didn't expect. Thats at least what makes a game memorable for me.
Surprisingly to me gameplay isn't a major focus in what I love about games. I love exploration and problem solving. The game has to have a certain atmosphere and presentation to hook me. I also like a bit of story and interesting characters.
This is why I love adventure games such as Riven and Grim Fandango; they have such a great atmosphere and really interesting presentation of visuals, sound and game play. It's also why I love Squaresoft's Playstation-era RPG's such as Final Fantasy IX and Chrono Cross.
Tell me if you want me to elaborate, and I'll try my best. I could even break down what I love about those games listed above. But in essence it's the overall experience I love.
immersive world
interesting storyline
not needing 10 hours of non-interactive cutscene boredom (that's right smurf you Kojima)
innovative gameplay mechanics
not having cliched characters
not having cliched annoying female characters that also happen to be the protagonists love interest
keeping the game fresh and interesting to play, no repetitive elements
fun
also making something take place in space is always better
Well, the fundamental stuff is to have the fundamentals down. :p A lot of games do this okay, but it's surprising how many still seem to have issues with their controls, their UI, that sort of thing. That's tolerable for a game like Dwarf Fortress, it's just one guy after all, but a bigger production should never have these sorts of problems at this stage in the medium's lifetime.
Beyond that, the major thing on my mind right now is having a solid and fair sense of progression, one which rewards the player. When you make a choice, it should be between viable options most of the time - the difference between Civ 4 and Civ 5 is very telling here. In the former, you're making choices between what to build and where to spend resources, but pretty much everything you can get is useful in some way or another; the costs are generally opportunity costs rather than 'actual' ones (i.e. in the time it took to build that library, I could have had four swordsmen)
Conversely, in Civ 5, it's a game about choosing the least of evils. Building units costs you. Building buildings costs you. Building cities costs you. Building tile improvements costs you. etc. etc. You don't choose what is best for you, you choose what is least bad - and a 4x, or any game about building a great and mighty empire, should never punish you for that sort of thing.
I like to think of it like this, and I'm sure you can understand the analogy:
Graphics - looks
Sounds - voice and accent
Controls - personal chemistry
Replay Value - how well you in long-term get along together
:p
On a more serious note, I think the real heart of a game can't clearly be defined - it is just that little extra that makes you wanna play it over and over.
A good game cannot be defined just by its "great graphics", "awesome controls" etc, it needs that extra charm that makes you personally like it on a deeper level.
People have argued how lots of shooters are better than Goldeneye 007, and their arguments are usually "better controls", "better AI" and so on, but that's not what makes Goldeneye 007 so good.
The AI sucks and the graphics are outdated, but it's still one of the best shooters in history - because it has that particular unique charm.
And it has nothing to do with nostalgia either, because people are still discovering the game and growing to love it.
There are many things that can make a game good, but it usually depends on the type of game being made. One thing that is always a deal-breaker for me is poor controls/camera. A game needs to do what I want when I tell it to. I shouldn't have to fight the game as well as the challenges being posed within the game.
Good writing is also a huge point for me. A scant number of games actually have this these days - particularly the ones that are especially story-heavy (FFXIII, Heavy Rain, Metal Gear).
More than anything, though, is that a game's elements all need to work well together to make a compelling whole. This saves games that don't have particularly A-grade production throughout (Alpha Protocol) and it is what a solid game should be.
There are quite a few types of gaming around these days. The Wii, Kinect, Move, classic controller, PC is still around here or there, downloadable games where you should probably adjust expectations a little, rah rah ah ah ah. So long as you can create a game that isn't broken and satisfies whatever target audience is in your aim, good game is made. Good and fun and the like are pretty subjective, especially with something like games. Also, it has to produce fanart that I find funny and everyone else finds gross.
You pretty much listed it right there.Quote:
Originally Posted by Wolf Kanno
I don't have much to add except the inclusion of a music soundtrack. I find myself enjoying games more if they're complete with a vast musical soundtrack, or at least one that relates really well with what's going on in the game. Immerse worlds are a must. Media is a form of escapism for most so to have an immerse world(s) within the game where you can escape, is a plus. The biggest thing is the story. If it doesn't have a good story then it MUST have fantastic game play and amazing music (hi Sonic games). I'll be alright with the game play being repetitive as long as this is the case. But for most games, the story and characters is what hooks me. I would have never even thought of purchasing Red Dead Redemption if it weren't for this, because I didn't particularly care for riding around on a horse and hog tying.
Porn and Violence? :(
Critical reception and nothing else.
What makes a game good? Well, a game that makes you feel something a long time after you've finished it.
A good story full of unexpected twists
Interesting characters that grow as the game progresses
A world that is extremely original and mind blowing (like Spira)
Beautiful soundtrack
Fun and enjoyable gameplay
And good graphics (they don't have to be great, they just have to not offend my eyes)
I'm going to distill it down to just one major element. Although the experience as a whole that is created by every element of a game coming together is essentially what's going to make the game good or great, I'm going to throw the inclusion of meaningful choices out there as the most important single aspect for me.
Now meaningful choice can take any number of forms. It could be as simple as choosing between different routes in a single player FPS (and yes, despite their modern linearity they still have multiple paths through sections much of the time, at least in the good ones), deciding which class to play to most help your team in TF2, which spells to teach a character or party composition in an RPG, or whether you're going to rush or expand, or when to scout and what to do with the info you get from it in Starcraft. The choices don't even necessarily have to be something that you sit and ponder over like you'd find in dialog options in games like Fallout 3 or Mass Effect. They can be fast and require split second decision making, just as long as they have the potential to dramatically affect what happens in the game and your experience playing through it.
There are other factors that can come into play as well, often working in concert with choices though, like the challenge level of the game. Choices become less meaningful if there's less challenge because the consequences of choosing one thing over another are lessened.
Now this isn't to say that graphics, art style, sound, music, story, and characters aren't important but without the ability to make meaningful choices I not only feel less engaged and immersed because I feel interaction is key to immersion, but I start to feel like I might as well be watching a movie instead of playing a game.
BOOM nailed it in one! If gaming isn't fun then why bother!Quote:
Originally Posted by Jessweeee♪
Dunno.
I really only get into JRPGs and some hack and slash stuff, and an mmo on the side. Hack and slash is pretty easy to keep fun, and the day they screw the ones I play up, then I'll laugh at their stupidity. As for rpgs, just get a great musician and awesome storyline matched with believable fun characters and an entertaining world and your set. Keep the battle system not too complex and don't waste so much time on graphics that any of the more important elements get forgotten. With an online game I usually chose them with my real life friends, so the social side is always set up before hand, but to make them enjoyable I like them challenging and worth striving for something. A great guild system is needed. PVP optional but never forced and classes that actually stand out far and wide from the others and each having a very high needed desire for raids.
I think what makes a game good is it's production crew. People who have a vision and want to convey it through a video game. They need a good director and writers just like if they were making a top selling movie. The best games are always created this way.
For example, the Final Fantasy series and it's interesting events leading to some convoluted story. Uncharted 2 as well and its crazy camera work making a movie-like game. Shadow of the Colossus with it's smurfing beautiful world. Kingdom Hearts for bringing classic disney movies to life. Final Fantasy 7, 8 or 9 and their interesting direction with their environment's art style. Also, Chrono Trigger with its interesting time travel storyline. These games all captivate the audience with their unique concepts and artistic perspective.
Games are like the next level of storytelling and the technology for it is only getting better.
Gameplay above all.
If the gameplay is bad, it doesn't matter how well everything else has been made. Gameplay can make or break a game just like that, since it's what makes a game "fun to play". And yes, "exploration" goes into the gameplay category too.
Characters are probably the second most important thing for me. Characters > story. This is what made titles such as Star Ocean 4 fail horribly. In Tales of Vesperia ( which is awesome simply because of its excellent characters and gameplay ) I had trouble picking a party, because I liked too many of the characters. In SO4, the characters were so awful I had a hard time picking because I didn't want to use anyone.
Super Robot Taisen og Saga is a title that honestly has very few things going for it beyond gameplay and characters. Yet I absolutely love it, simply because of the gameplay and characters. These two things are what makes a game fun to play in my eyes.
Story and music comes in after that, building up tension and creating atmospheres. But even if one of these two are lacking, I can still enjoy a game if the gameplay and characters are good enough.
I can't even come close to answering this question because of the different genres I play; what makes Gran Turismo 5 a great game has nothing to do with what makes White Knight Chronicles a great game.
The least generic and most interesting thing in here so far was Vivi22's explanation of meaningful choices.
What makes a game good (to me) is when I enjoy it.
As for what makes me enjoy a game, there's just so many different answers to that question, and there's no way I can come up with a universal rule to what makes a game enjoyable.
For example, an RPG like Bahamut Lagoon with a really deep story, lots of customization with teams and dragons, and a really strong emotion inducing soundtrack is really enjoyable to me.
Yet, a platforming game like New Super Mario Bros. Wii has none of those things (the soundtrack is still enjoyable, but it doesn't evoke emotion remotely close to the level of Bahamut Lagoon), yet I still enjoy it for totally different reasons, like really awesome multiplayer, all the different co-op tricks that can be pulled off (synchronized ground pounds, using players as jump springs, etc.), classic nostalgic Mario gameplay, and memories of playing that game with friends and family (especially all the ridiculous deaths and mess-ups in co-op).
And in rare cases, there are games that are just either insanely glitchy and unfair or plain awful (like Van TT or Quad Desery Fury). Yet I enjoy those games because I don't immediately dismiss them for their questionable quality. Though the game's quality is bad, there are usually some things I find amusing about those games that make me keep playing them (like Van TT's death scenes, the track's "shortcuts", Quad Desery Fury's wipeout animation, etc).
A decent challenge and a decent story that gives me a purpose to endure said challenge are really the most important fun factors in a game for me.