Why do we Western gamers always seem to like such "big, bad, and edgy" characters?

I noticed that even though Japan likes their cutesy-cutesy characters, the majority of us Westerners like big, bad, and edgy characters, or "badass" characters, but I don't get why. Personally, unlike the majority of you on this forum, while I do like my share of "badass" characters, I also like my cutesy-cutesy characters too. Case in point: the Japanese liked the inclusion of Vaan in Dissidia 012, but the majority of Westerners wanted the more "macho" Basch. Of course, there is still a sizable minority here who do like their cutesy-cutesy characters too, but the majority here likes "badass" characters.

Also, another thing that I noticed is that while Japanese game players like cheeky, cutesy, and preppy J-Pop music, the majority of Westerners like big, bad, and edgy heavy metal. Of course, as with the case above, there is also a sizable minority here who likes cheeky American pop music by singers such as Hannah Montana/Miley Cyrus and other American pop stars, but the majority of Western game players like edgy heavy metal acts such as Linkin Park, Limp Bizkit, Killswitch Engage, and Breaking Benjamin. Personally, I'm into a mixture of both cheeky pop and edgy metal, but please don't ridicule me for liking Disney Channel pop stars. I would have to guess that this would have to be due to the fact that while it is mainstream in Japanese pop culture, it is largely UNDERGROUND in Western pop culture. It's popular here, too, but it's underground in comparison to its force in Japanese pop culture, as video game references in American pop culture are VERY SELDOM in comparison to Japanese pop culture.

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edgy heavy metal acts such as Linkin Park, Limp Bizkit, Killswitch Engage, and Breaking Benjamin

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lol.

It's just our society. We like men with beards and alpha males. Japanese people like guys who look like chicks. *shurg*

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Originally Posted by SuperMillionaire

the majority of Westerners like big, bad, and edgy heavy metal.

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lol

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Originally Posted by SuperMillionaire

there is also a sizable minority here who likes cheeky American pop music by singers such as Hannah Montana/Miley Cyrus and other American pop stars

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Originally Posted by SuperMillionaire

while it is mainstream in Japanese pop culture, it is largely UNDERGROUND in Western pop culture.

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The thought that Hannah Montana could be underground intrigues and amuses me.


But yeah, I guess it's just another variant of East vs. West differences. The museum at my uni actually had a special display on beards and how they've represented manliness in Western culture throughout antiquity :D

A lot of the complaints about Vaan aren't because he is a less masculine character, but rather that he is a nonentity that serves no purpose in the story. He wasn't even in the original story of XII, and it shows. He has no relation to the game's plot, while other characters, who relate to both the story and have actual connections to other characters, get left out.

People want Basch because he has a personality and could have an interesting character dynamic with Gabranth (and there are plenty of people who want Ashe for the same reasons). Vaan has no meaningful interaction with the character, and has no role in the plot that could be brought out as a focus for his role in Dissidia.

He was just a bad choice of character, and the fact that he is a whiny, scrawny, wimpy little kid is not the biggest problem people have with him.

I’m big in Japan

lol your premise doesn't make much sense with linkin park and hannah montana being underground and edgy


Anyway, the Japanese like them girly dudes so they won't have to feel as bad about their wieners being so small. Which of course was caused by the radiation of them bombs the white man dropped on their asses.

I agree with Skyblade. If Vaan wasn't in XII there would be little to no difference in the plot. I would have liked any character in Dissidia over Vaan (except Penelo, she was even worse imo)

But I don't completely agree with you. I mean, you're right but you're generalising way too much. I personally don't like the "big, bad and edgy" characters. One of my favourite characters in Dissida and FF in general is Kuja and he's far from edgy. And all of my friends who play games none of them, including myself, don't listen to heavy metal (even though the bands you named aren't heavy metal at all) or that cheesy pop crap. We listen to all kinds of music. One of my friends is really into hip hop, the other dubstep and stuff like that and I'm into punk, indie, prog rock and pop punk mostly (I listen to most things really, but I listen to mostly rock genres)

Sure is some black and white over-generalization here. Are you basing your opinion that 'the majority of us here', on a Final Fantasy forum, like 'badass' characters just because people prefer Basch? Because of the Halo thread that keeps popping up? When it comes to Westerners and popular video games with manly, 'badass' characters, people rarely spend much time talking about the quality of the characters themselves.

One thing to consider about Japan's 'preference' is that there are a lot more girls who play Final Fantasy and are very vocal about it. If you look at your average male pop star in Japan, they are young and pretty men. So the female influence is strong in pushing the 'cutesy' look, as you call it.

There are psychosocial things to consider as well. Japanese people are stereotypically timid, so having a 'cutesy', accommodating, non-threatening character might naturally appeal to them. People in other cultures, particularly males, are more likely to prefer a 'badass' character that they can look up to and admire (or at least believe can take on an alien army) without feeling threatened by them. If they only had a choice between one or the other. There's a lot of middle ground that's being ignored here.

Speaking of 'ignored middle ground'; I won't ridicule your taste, but I am worried that your range of musical choices is so limited and extreme. And, dare I say, culturally ignorant. I understand the point you're trying to make, but when you try to support your point with extreme claims, you really expose yourself when you don't need to. You really didn't need to mention music.

I also don't fully understand what you meant by this:

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Originally Posted by SuperMillionaire

...as video game references in American pop culture are VERY SELDOM in comparison to Japanese pop culture.

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What video game 'references' are you talking about in Japanese pop culture? This is a (western) pop culture video game reference. I don't often hear popular Japanese songs talking about playing games. In Japan, video games come with theme songs from real artists. It's not so much a cultural reference as it is cross-promotion.

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Originally Posted by SuperMillionaire

edgy heavy metal acts such as Linkin Park, Limp Bizkit, Killswitch Engage, and Breaking Benjamin.

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http://i789.photobucket.com/albums/y...5242466404.png

why do japenes eat dogs when we westerns eat hampburgers??

is culture thing.......

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Originally Posted by Meat Puppet

I’m big in Japan

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Thats true of all american guys.
lol.

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Originally Posted by Psychotic

why do japenes eat dogs when we westerns eat hampburgers??

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bcuz dog are imune to radation and cows are not i think.

I don't see all this cute of femimine men in Japanese games outside of JRPGs really. That are plenty that don't fit that like.

Mario
Luigi
Wario
Ryu
Snake
Donkey Kong
Jack from Madworld
Travis from No More Heroes
Nathan Spencer
The guys from Contra
The guys from Metal Slug
The guys from Double Dragon
Guy
Cody
Haggar
Arthur

those are all nintendo, which is run by a gaymo

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Originally Posted by SuperMillionaire

...please don't ridicule me for liking Disney Channel pop stars...

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But you make it so easy.

Disney Channel musicians aren't "underground." You're just not a prepubescent female, so you're outside their target demographic. But don't worry! You're not alone. I bet you'll get along really well with this guy.

(SPOILER)What I'm trying to say that at this point, infatuation with preteen pop stars is starting to get a little creepy and you should probably try to expand your musical horizons.

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Originally Posted by Hypoallergenic Cactuar

those are all nintendo, which is run by a gaymo

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Snake
Ryu
Cody
Guy
Haggar
The Guys from Double Dragon
The Guys from Contra
The Guys from Metal Slug
Travis Touchdown
Arthur and
Jack are not property of Nintendo


Also the guy from Yakuza
The guy from Castlevania
Chris Redfield
The guy from the Conduit

I tend to believe there's a huge maturity aspect as well. I don't think its a choice between cutesy or badass. Western games are trying to be more "mature". While in the process you end up catering to a huge "juvenile" demographic (original Mortal Kombat, anyone?) but to me, Japan likes to cater a lot to immaturity. And cutesy fluff-balls just don't entertain me anymore on an intellectual or emotional level. And I rarely play "pick-up-and-play" games. So Mario and Katamari just aren't for me. I grew out of that kinda stuff. Japan didn't. Though it should be noted, a lot of Western gamers have not, either

^ Yes. It's whatever sells to a market of 15-year-old boys (or those with the maturity level of a 15-year-old boy).

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Originally Posted by Ouch!

this guy.

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Oh god what

I cannot stop laughing

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Originally Posted by Ouch!

this guy.

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WHAT THE WHAT!

Back to the thread at hand - most people are just insecure about themselves so they won't look at games that don't have boring grey and brown "realistic" art styles.

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Originally Posted by Vyk

And I rarely play "pick-up-and-play" games. So Mario and Katamari just aren't for me. I grew out of that kinda stuff. Japan didn't. Though it should be noted, a lot of Western gamers have not, either

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This is a good example. You may not like pick-up-and-play games, but they are a massive part of the industry. The way you've worded that makes it sound like it's something people have to grow out of, and if they don't they are immature. That is just wrong, imo. You look at the latest Donkey Kong Country Returns and you see typical platforming, so just because it has a bright and colourful art style and is presented in a cute and comical way, it's not grown up enough for someone mature to like? Why do some people have to take life so seriously all the time?

I deem you a Stick In The Mud.

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Originally Posted by Depression Moon

Snake
Ryu
Cody
Guy
Haggar
The Guys from Double Dragon
The Guys from Contra
The Guys from Metal Slug
Travis Touchdown
Arthur and
Jack are not property of Nintendo


Also the guy from Yakuza
The guy from Castlevania
Chris Redfield
The guy from the Conduit

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Huh? All of those except for Snake and the Metal Slug guys are quite pretty boy-tier in my book.

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Originally Posted by Timekeeper

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Originally Posted by SuperMillionaire

there is also a sizable minority here who likes cheeky American pop music by singers such as Hannah Montana/Miley Cyrus and other American pop stars

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Originally Posted by SuperMillionaire

while it is mainstream in Japanese pop culture, it is largely UNDERGROUND in Western pop culture.

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The thought that Hannah Montana could be underground intrigues and amuses me.


But yeah, I guess it's just another variant of East vs. West differences. The museum at my uni actually had a special display on beards and how they've represented manliness in Western culture throughout antiquity :D

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Hannah Montana (which, by the way, aired the final episode on the Disney Channel a week ago) is mainstream.

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Originally Posted by JKTrix

Sure is some black and white over-generalization here. Are you basing your opinion that 'the majority of us here', on a Final Fantasy forum, like 'badass' characters just because people prefer Basch? Because of the Halo thread that keeps popping up? When it comes to Westerners and popular video games with manly, 'badass' characters, people rarely spend much time talking about the quality of the characters themselves.

One thing to consider about Japan's 'preference' is that there are a lot more girls who play Final Fantasy and are very vocal about it. If you look at your average male pop star in Japan, they are young and pretty men. So the female influence is strong in pushing the 'cutesy' look, as you call it.

There are psychosocial things to consider as well. Japanese people are stereotypically timid, so having a 'cutesy', accommodating, non-threatening character might naturally appeal to them. People in other cultures, particularly males, are more likely to prefer a 'badass' character that they can look up to and admire (or at least believe can take on an alien army) without feeling threatened by them. If they only had a choice between one or the other. There's a lot of middle ground that's being ignored here.

Speaking of 'ignored middle ground'; I won't ridicule your taste, but I am worried that your range of musical choices is so limited and extreme. And, dare I say, culturally ignorant. I understand the point you're trying to make, but when you try to support your point with extreme claims, you really expose yourself when you don't need to. You really didn't need to mention music.

I also don't fully understand what you meant by this:

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Originally Posted by SuperMillionaire

...as video game references in American pop culture are VERY SELDOM in comparison to Japanese pop culture.

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What video game 'references' are you talking about in Japanese pop culture? This is a (western) pop culture video game reference. I don't often hear popular Japanese songs talking about playing games. In Japan, video games come with theme songs from real artists. It's not so much a cultural reference as it is cross-promotion.

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I never said absolutely everybody else. I said the majority, but that doesn't include everybody, so there is a minority. It's a sizable minority, but it's a minority nonetheless.

And I'm not talking about having video games referenced in music, but pop culture in general; in the United States, video games don't have the same popularity level amongst ALL AMERICANS as movies, TV, and music. THAT'S what I mean by "underground."

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Originally Posted by Ouch!

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Originally Posted by SuperMillionaire

...please don't ridicule me for liking Disney Channel pop stars...

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But you make it so easy.

Disney Channel musicians aren't "underground." You're just not a prepubescent female, so you're outside their target demographic. But don't worry! You're not alone. I bet you'll get along really well with this guy.

(SPOILER)What I'm trying to say that at this point, infatuation with preteen pop stars is starting to get a little creepy and you should probably try to expand your musical horizons.

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Number one, I'm not the only one in my age range that likes Disney Channel shows, as revealed in this article I found:

Hannah Montana has following with many college students, despite age difference - Features

As you can see, there is a considerable number of college students who also like Disney Channel shows and singers.

Number two, I happen to have a wide variety of musical interests, from dance-pop stars like Miley Cyrus, to soft pop music stars such as Colbie Caillat, to soft rock bands like Lifehouse, to dance-rock bands like Good Charlotte, to punk bands like Paramore (who by the way are friends of the Cyrus family), to a few heavy-and-edgy bands such as Nickelback, to a few progressive rock bands such as Muse, and much more. Almost anything other than the majority of hip-hop and heavy metal (with the exception of Linkin Park/Dead by Sunrise/Fort Minor).

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Originally Posted by Depression Moon

I don't see all this cute of femimine men in Japanese games outside of JRPGs really. That are plenty that don't fit that like.

Mario
Luigi
Wario
Ryu
Snake
Donkey Kong
Jack from Madworld
Travis from No More Heroes
Nathan Spencer
The guys from Contra
The guys from Metal Slug
The guys from Double Dragon
Guy
Cody
Haggar
Arthur

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True, but still, the majority of Japanese people tend to like "cutesy-cutesy" characters moreso than "badass" characters, whereas it's the other way around here (for the most part, but not always).

You're really not helping your case by citing an article in which all the quoted sources are female. Try harder.

Also, please stop referring to bands like Linkin Park as edgy or heavy. It's embarrassing.

I think Super's definition of edgey is a little more watered down than the average music enthusiast. As far as mainstream music goes, Linkin Park probably is more on that side of the spectrum. Especially older Linkin Park. If you want to consider their angst edgey, I think they were only outdone by maybe Eminem

As for my quoted statement. I didn't mean to imply everyone does (or should) outgrow pick-up-and-play games. I just mean its more of a natural progression, but not a guarantee. Certainly happens more often than people growing INTO those kinda games. I suppose I could have worded it better. But I cited that the west enjoys those kind of games more frequently than realized to try to counter-balance the fact that I grew out of them. I know I'm not a normal gamer. I'm extremely hard to please. A lot of western gamers really aren't as hard to please as they sound, or as SuperMillionaire thinks they might be. JRPGs are still going pretty strong for instance. And Pokemon is still a billion dollar phenomenon over here

Dear lawdy. The categories you place your musical taste in are so off. It's kinda embarrassing.

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Originally Posted by Freya

Dear lawdy. The categories you place your musical taste in are so off. It's kinda embarrassing.

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Originally Posted by SuperMillionaire

please don't ridicule me

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lol

I especially liked identifying Muse as prog-rock. While some of there stuff exhibits some prog-rock influence and could maybe be called neo-prog, it's just insulting to associate them primarily as progressive rock.

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Originally Posted by Ouch!

it's just insulting to associate them primarily as progressive rock.

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Why?? o_O

Because prog-rock is prog-rock, and Muse has far stronger influences than prog-rock.

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Originally Posted by Ouch!

You're really not helping your case by citing an article in which all the quoted sources are female. Try harder.

Also, please stop referring to bands like Linkin Park as edgy or heavy. It's embarrassing.

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How could you not think of them as edgy and heavy? The really loud guitars and Chester Bennington's screaming sure sounds edgy to me! If not, then perhaps Limp Bizkit, Killswitch Engage, and Breaking Benjamin, along with many other heavy metal bands?

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Originally Posted by Vyk

I think Super's definition of edgey is a little more watered down than the average music enthusiast. As far as mainstream music goes, Linkin Park probably is more on that side of the spectrum. Especially older Linkin Park. If you want to consider their angst edgey, I think they were only outdone by maybe Eminem

As for my quoted statement. I didn't mean to imply everyone does (or should) outgrow pick-up-and-play games. I just mean its more of a natural progression, but not a guarantee. Certainly happens more often than people growing INTO those kinda games. I suppose I could have worded it better. But I cited that the west enjoys those kind of games more frequently than realized to try to counter-balance the fact that I grew out of them. I know I'm not a normal gamer. I'm extremely hard to please. A lot of western gamers really aren't as hard to please as they sound, or as SuperMillionaire thinks they might be. JRPGs are still going pretty strong for instance. And Pokemon is still a billion dollar phenomenon over here

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Yes, Pokemon is a phenomenon here, and that is one of the VERY FEW works of Japanese-made entertainment that has made it into the mainstream of American pop culture. The thing is, something is mainstream only if Hollywood talks about it. If it's not mentioned in Hollywood, then it's not mainstream.

Heavy metal, at least the kind of heavy metal you're talking about, isn't exactly edgy by current standards. The bands you're naming are comparatively mainstream for the genre and that tends to mean that they're substantially tamer than other bands in the genre. I'm not really into the whole genre to begin with, so I won't throw a bunch of examples at you, but there are plenty out there that make those bands look like classical music.

All said, I think you're extremely underestimating the proliferation of Japanese media in America. Last I heard, there was a projected statistic that anime and manga will be more culturally pervasive in the United States than comic books within the next decade or something like that. I can't find the source right now, but if you really want it, I'll try harder to track it down.

Hollywood is not the end-all-be-all benchmark of what is culturally relevant. That's an absolutely absurd assertion. If anything, Hollywood is typically a little bit behind what is culturally relevant in emerging entertainment. Right now, it's dominated by adaptations and sequels which, by their nature, are at least a year behind on something popular.

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Originally Posted by Ouch!

Because prog-rock is prog-rock, and Muse has far stronger influences than prog-rock.

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It's just a label, don't be so elitist.

That's not elitist. The following post is elitist. Muse is better classified as indie rock. Their last album certainly had some stronger progressive rock influences (it was a concept album based on a novel), but progressive rock is a very specific type of music with a specific sound and presentation not typically characteristic of Muse's music. Progressive rock, especially the later works of the genre which largely contributed to its downfall, were ridiculously bombastic. They were also occasionally accompanied by ice skating.

As mentioned, Muse has elements of progressive rock, especially in their latest album which is based on George Orwell's 1984. Doing concept albums based on literature (The Lord of the Rings and Arthurian legend are some of the bigger examples) is a huge staple of progressive rock (a tradition which spawned from the famous Beatles album Sergeant Pepper's Lonely Hearts Club Band), so I'll grant that. Muse also uses synthesizers occasionally, which is definitely a staple of any proper prog-rock band, but more often than not they'll use a piano instead. On the whole those, these influences are brief and hardly definitive of their style.

Calling Muse progressive rock (a rock movement which died at the end of the eighties, mind you) is like calling Wilco country. There are elements of it in the work, but it's hardly their defining characteristic.

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Originally Posted by SuperMillionaire

I noticed that even though Japan likes their cutesy-cutesy characters, the majority of us Westerners like big, bad, and edgy characters, or "badass" characters, but I don't get why. Personally, unlike the majority of you on this forum, while I do like my share of "badass" characters, I also like my cutesy-cutesy characters too. Case in point: the Japanese liked the inclusion of Vaan in Dissidia 012, but the majority of Westerners wanted the more "macho" Basch. Of course, there is still a sizable minority here who do like their cutesy-cutesy characters too, but the majority here likes "badass" characters.

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Also, thinking it over, I think more of us just like adults over children. They don't necessarily have to be badass. I mean, Sazh wasn't, but he was mature, collected, and witty, and we liked that. How many of our heroes are children? We empathize better with adults, and they are easier to look up to. More mature, more heroic. Not necessarily more edgy or badass.

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Also, another thing that I noticed is that while Japanese game players like cheeky, cutesy, and preppy J-Pop music, the majority of Westerners like big, bad, and edgy heavy metal. Of course, as with the case above, there is also a sizable minority here who likes cheeky American pop music by singers such as Hannah Montana/Miley Cyrus and other American pop stars, but the majority of Western game players like edgy heavy metal acts such as Linkin Park, Limp Bizkit, Killswitch Engage, and Breaking Benjamin. Personally, I'm into a mixture of both cheeky pop and edgy metal, but please don't ridicule me for liking Disney Channel pop stars. I would have to guess that this would have to be due to the fact that while it is mainstream in Japanese pop culture, it is largely UNDERGROUND in Western pop culture. It's popular here, too, but it's underground in comparison to its force in Japanese pop culture, as video game references in American pop culture are VERY SELDOM in comparison to Japanese pop culture.

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I like good music, be it of every variety. That is entirely subjective, and, yes, can be influenced by culture. There were some western gamers who really enjoyed the battle theme of FFX-2, even though I personally think it is one of the worst pieces of music in the series. I like Real Emotion and 1000 Words though (and the ending battle theme is brilliant). I certainly don't like most of the bands you've listed (or the pop singers, for that matter), and among artists I do listen to, I tend to like one song, maybe two, and despise the rest.

If you group things widely enough, you can divide it up however you want. Things aren't that simple.

True, you're partially right in that it's not ALWAYS the case, and I never said it was ALWAYS the case in the first place; I said it was in THE MAJORITY of cases.

Yes, adults are obviously more mature, but just because you're a fighter doesn't mean you have to be so "macho."

And if I really was "closed-minded," would I even be thinking about these kinds of things?

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Originally Posted by kotora

lol your premise doesn't make much sense with linkin park and hannah montana being underground and edgy


Anyway, the Japanese like them girly dudes so they won't have to feel as bad about their wieners being so small. Which of course was caused by the radiation of them bombs the white man dropped on their asses.

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coming from the guy with justin bieber for the avatar...

yeah I think it's all depending on personal taste. Sometime the "girly" male characters really are badass. Look at Kadaj in Advent Children. I personally liked him over Loz and Yazoo. Vaan isn't too bad. I use him more than Basch. Sometimes the girly man characters are more badass than the manly man ones. I really do think it all boils down to taste... Just my two cents.

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Originally Posted by SuperMillionaire

And if I really was "closed-minded," would I even be thinking about these kinds of things?

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Nobody actually called you closed-minded, you're the first one to bring that up. I'd say that this is more about a lack of knowledge, experience, or exposure.

You're still kind of ignoring the obvious point that almost everyone has said: Japan has a different culture. I tried to give a little more specific insight into why their culture is different, and I could give more, yet you don't really seem that interested in it.

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Originally Posted by JKTrix

You're still kind of ignoring the obvious point that almost everyone has said: Japan has a different culture. I tried to give a little more specific insight into why their culture is different, and I could give more, yet you don't really seem that interested in it.

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Keep in mind this is the same guy who argued bullheadedly that despite the fact the he acknowledged that Sora, Riku, and Kairi are not English names that they should still have American English surnames. Cultural distinction doesn't really seem to be in his vocabulary.

I think he kinda marries his arguments as well. So throwing out information is just going to cause discussions to run in circles

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Originally Posted by Ouch!

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Originally Posted by JKTrix

You're still kind of ignoring the obvious point that almost everyone has said: Japan has a different culture. I tried to give a little more specific insight into why their culture is different, and I could give more, yet you don't really seem that interested in it.

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Keep in mind this is the same guy who argued bullheadedly that despite the fact the he acknowledged that Sora, Riku, and Kairi are not English names that they should still have American English surnames. Cultural distinction doesn't really seem to be in his vocabulary.

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Forget about the surnames. I just want to know why we like more "big, bad, and edgy" characters moreso than the Japanese. I know that that there are differences, but I want to know WHY.

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Originally Posted by JKTrix

There are psychosocial things to consider as well. Japanese people are stereotypically timid, so having a 'cutesy', accommodating, non-threatening character might naturally appeal to them. People in other cultures, particularly males, are more likely to prefer a 'badass' character that they can look up to and admire (or at least believe can take on an alien army) without feeling threatened by them. If they only had a choice between one or the other.

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You acknowledge that our cultures are different. Why are they different? They developed independently of one another for hundreds of years. Significant cultural exchange between the east and west is still a relatively new thing. Naturally our cultures would exhibit differing preferences in a number of areas.

Personally, I think the western market's preference for "tough" or "bad ass" lead characters is less about an absolute aversion to young, effeminate teenage characters and more about, as JKTrix mentioned, believability. More of then than not, the lead character is thrust into a role in which he must defend the world. This often requires great acts of physical strength and endurance. It's just much easier to believe that Master Chief, a genetically and physically enhanced super soldier is going to lead humanity's campaign to defeat a conglomerate of vicious aliens than it is to believe that Vaan the seventeen-year-old street rat is going to picking up a great axe and slaying dragons and demi-gods.

Also I'm just sick of playing as kids. It wasn't even that relate-able when I was a kid. Having a mature adult in lead roles is just more palatable to me. It doesn't even have to be a bad-ass. In fact, I tend to have an aversion to bad-asses as well. They're rarely done right. And when they are, they tend to get milked too much and tiresome (Kratos [fun for one game, got old after two, now there's like six])

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Originally Posted by Ouch!

You acknowledge that our cultures are different. Why are they different? They developed independently of one another for hundreds of years. Significant cultural exchange between the east and west is still a relatively new thing. Naturally our cultures would exhibit differing preferences in a number of areas.

Personally, I think the western market's preference for "tough" or "bad ass" lead characters is less about an absolute aversion to young, effeminate teenage characters and more about, as JKTrix mentioned, believability. More of then than not, the lead character is thrust into a role in which he must defend the world. This often requires great acts of physical strength and endurance. It's just much easier to believe that Master Chief, a genetically and physically enhanced super soldier is going to lead humanity's campaign to defeat a conglomerate of vicious aliens than it is to believe that Vaan the seventeen-year-old street rat is going to picking up a great axe and slaying dragons and demi-gods.

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True, but alas, the unlikely street-rat can end up becoming the hero who slays vicious monsters and opponents. I can see Vaan as being similar to Disney's Aladdin in this aspect.

I also don't get why the majority of you would like to ridicule characters who are not "big, bad, and edgy" as "wusses" or "pansies." Just because they may not look or act "big, bad, and edgy" doesn't mean that they are "wusses" or "pansies."

You're not doing much for your cause by comparing one fictional character to another when we're discussing believability and realism. That said, Aladdin has a magic carpet and an all-powerful genie as best friends; he's not exactly the pinnacle example of a self-made man.

Not all young or effeminate characters are wusses are pansies. Sweeping and general statements like this only make you look further out of touch with the discussion. I do appreciate the effort to bring up another point instead of admitting defeat on the previous one, though.

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Originally Posted by Proxy

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Originally Posted by kotora

lol your premise doesn't make much sense with linkin park and hannah montana being underground and edgy


Anyway, the Japanese like them girly dudes so they won't have to feel as bad about their wieners being so small. Which of course was caused by the radiation of them bombs the white man dropped on their asses.

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coming from the guy with justin bieber for the avatar...

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hey kotora, you must've missed the memo. Bieber has the smallest dick in the world!

On topic: I don't know about "cutesy", but I like Cloud as a character and most other sites (after the release of Advent Children) consider him a shemale femine character! I don't mind, but that's not how I would describe him. At the same time I also like Kratos from God of War series. He's not as deep as a character, but he was something like an inspiration back in highschool to me and my friends to get all beefy and muscular lol. Both characters look cool to me and are extremely appealing in different ways I suppose. So i guess I don't fit the stereotype that's enforced on western gamers.

I don't really think Cloud is the type of character that SuperMillionaire is referring to, though. Recent incarnations of Cloud might be effeminate, but he's still a muscle-bound genetically enhanced super-soldier who wields a sword almost as big as he is. He may not have a permanent five o'clock shadow, but he's still what I'd call a badass.

I think he's talking more about the preteen and teenage leads like Vaan, Hope, and such.

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Originally Posted by Ouch!

I don't really think Cloud is the type of character that SuperMillionaire is referring to, though. Recent incarnations of Cloud might be effeminate, but he's still a muscle-bound genetically enhanced super-soldier who wields a sword almost as big as he is. He may not have a permanent five o'clock shadow, but he's still what I'd call a badass.

I think he's talking more about the preteen and teenage leads like Vaan, Hope, and such.

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Oookay I get it. Yeah I hate both Vaan and Hope. God awful addition to both games. Here's hoping Versus and XV won't have any of those types.

It still seems like you're simply comparing Vaan to Kratos. Yet your argument alludes to comparisons between the likes of Sora, Link, or Locke as wusses, compared to the likes of Prince of Persia, the hero in Fable, or Zevrand from Dragon Age as big bad and edgey. Bare in mind, Japan has Akuma and Chris Redfield (now in one game, too!). And people love them. And Vaan is still a pansy compared to them as well. The generalization doesn't even hold that much water if you speak just about Japan. Granted, people can't usually relate to Akuma the way they can Vaan. But myself, and many others probably don't even want to relate to Vaan. I'd much prefer Locke, or Cid Highwind, or Balthier. Its not a hatred of Japanese characters as a whole. Its just a hatred of that one Japanese archetype

The thing is, I've seen YouTube videos comparing cutesy characters with "big, bad, and edgy" characters on YouTube. They compare them for the sake of bashing the cutesy character.

And it doesn't just go for boys, either; I've noticed that a large majority of gamers on many forums (including this one) also tend to hate "perky young girl" archetype characters such as Vanille.

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Originally Posted by SuperMillionaire

I've noticed that a large majority of gamers on many forums (including this one) also tend to hate "perky young girl" archetype characters such as Vanille.

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I'm sorry, did you like Vanille? I completely agree with the hatred towards her, but for other "cutesy perky girl" archetypes are okay as long as they fit the context of the story. If the female lead in the game was like that, it would have to fit the game's arc (lets say it was a story based in highschool or something). just my 2cents

1. YouTube is never a good source; it's full of trolling rants in both the videos and the comments.

2. The "perky young girl" archetype is usually synonymous with the "obnoxiously energetic and borderline retarded" archetype. It can be done well, but usually it's just annoying.

Its also extremely over done. And it again involves an immature and really young character, typically. I moved on from that. I don't need an edgy girl to take its place. But someone who isn't struggling with ADD and a crayon addiction would be nice. I'm not a 12-year-old. The character itself usually isn't a 12-year-old. I don't want to play someone who acts like a 12-year-old. Especially when they aren't. Vanille's like 20 years old. Aeris and Tifa are the same age. They've got way more maturity than her, and I like them a lot, and they're hardly anything close to edgy or bad-ass. They're also from another Japanese game. So again, the comparison can stand, even in the country of origin. Some games just have annoying characters. And unless they star Jar Jar Binks, its very likely those games are from Japan. Because for some reason, Japan is in love with immaturity in certain regards

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Originally Posted by SuperMillionaire

And it doesn't just go for boys, either; I've noticed that a large majority of gamers on many forums (including this one) also tend to hate "perky young girl" archetype characters such as Vanille.

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I liked Rikku... >.>
perky indeed O_o

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Originally Posted by Vyk

Its also extremely over done. And it again involves an immature and really young character, typically. I moved on from that. I don't need an edgy girl to take its place. But someone who isn't struggling with ADD and a crayon addiction would be nice. I'm not a 12-year-old. The character itself usually isn't a 12-year-old. I don't want to play someone who acts like a 12-year-old. Especially when they aren't. Vanille's like 20 years old. Aeris and Tifa are the same age. They've got way more maturity than her, and I like them a lot, and they're hardly anything close to edgy or bad-ass. They're also from another Japanese game. So again, the comparison can stand, even in the country of origin. Some games just have annoying characters. And unless they star Jar Jar Binks, its very likely those games are from Japan. Because for some reason, Japan is in love with immaturity in certain regards

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Number one, ADD is an adult problem too.

Number two, Vanille doesn't have a "crayon addiction."

And number three, in my opinion, acting like a child and being immature are two different things. Acting older than you are and being mature are also two different things.

You're right, acting like a child and being immature are two different things, and the former is constantly more obnoxious than the latter. I would argue that immaturity lends itself to allowing a character to function as some comic relief. Zidane, for example, consistently acts immature. His immaturity is appropriate to the context of the narrative, however.

Vanille, Yuffie, Selphie, and Rikku are all often considered obnoxious because their "moments of levity," (if you want to give them that much credit) are poorly timed and without cease. When they're happy they're too happy and it's annoying. When they're sad, they whine and moan dramatically and it's annoying.

I think you are confusing cause and effect. Women like men who know what they want and stand their ground. So America is more open about it with their non-existent role models like Rambo and Rocky and Van Damme characters. Japanese culture is vastly different and I wouldn't be surprised if the younger generation developed this sort of softer male persona as a reaction to female pressure.

But I don't know. That was just conjecture.

A little immaturity is pretty healthy in my opinion. Acting like a spoiled or mentally handicapped child is not, however. And it really doesn't matter who struggles with ADD in real life. The problem is the game characters. You can have someone who isn't child-like who has ADD and not have them be annoying. Its a lot harder to think of game characters like that though. Roman from Grand Theft Auto 4 seems to have ADD. I'm pretty sure Joker from Mass Effect has it. Neither of them are really annoying in my opinion. Nor are they edgy or badass (though if you define badass as awesome, then a case could probably be made from Joker-adoring fans). And I didn't say Vanille had a crayon addiction. I can't think of any fictional characters who do, let alone ones from specific gaming genres :P I was emphasizing my stance. As in she may as well have one. Though I don't feel all that comfortable using her as a sole example since I've never played that game. A lot of it has to do with the characterizations, hers seemed like it would be the most annoying however (and Hope). Rikku was the last hyper-active childish character in a Final Fantasy I had to endure. And I actually enjoyed her. Everyone pegs Yuffie into that category as well, though I don't see it, myself, and I didn't hate her either. But they've always danced along the line of what's annoying for those types of characters. Selphie annoyed me

My point however is that Aeris (for example) has a definite child-like appeal. And yet I don't find her annoying. Moderation in all things I suppose. Its a good mantra to live by. And especially good to create fiction with. You don't want to over-do anything. Especially character traits which grate on nerves. But I know the Japanese are fully capable of creating believable, amusing, interesting characters

People need to stop bitching about ADD and :bou::bou::bou::bou:. Pretty much most fictional badass soldier dudes have it and it's probably pretty common among real ones as well. Attention deficit disorders are not disorders when society wants you to run around and shoot at stuff instead of sitting behind a desk all day.

As I stated and gave examples for, it doesn't have to be annoying. But hyperactive Japanese characters tend to make it that way :P I've got quite a few friends with ADD and the condition itself doesn't bother me at all. But its the best way to describe some of these annoying characters. No need to get any panties in a wad, its the characters, not the condition :]

True, that's right, but these types of characters also tend to have very nice personalities as well, in that they tend to be kind and caring.

That doesn't change the fact that they're still obnoxious most of the time.

No, it's that they care for and look after the others just as much as (if not more than) the others look out for them.

I like trains. I like trains. I like trains. I like trains.

What was that all about?

You're saying they all have the "they care about people" quality when they don't. Most the time, they are just obnoxious. You're giving them qualities for the sake of the argument. Who wouldn't like trains?

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Originally Posted by SuperMillionaire

What was that all about?

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Train, train
Take us away, take us away
Far away
Into the future we will go
Where we'll go we don't know

Urgh don't remind me of more reasons why I hate FF8 haha. Sadly Rinoa's not much better "YOU'RE A BIG MEANIE!!" Meanie poopy head!

Japanese people like their men non-threatening just like most Western teenage girls like their men. Why do you think boy bands were so popular? All the men were really girly looking purposely. And Japanese people are selling games primarily geared towards teens-- games featuring teenage characters with a T rating. It has nothing to do with the country and everything to do with demographics.

And look at the people who are most popular now to teenagers and pre-teen girls...Zac Efron, Justin Bieber, those dudes from Gossip Girls...I mean c'mon. Most of the masculine men like Tom Hardy older women like. I have yet to see a 13 year old come up to me and say Tom Hardy or Gerard Butler is hot.

Games that are geared towards mature audiences feature less boyish, more masculine looking main characters. For example, Snake in MGS series.

You say it's an issue of demographics and not cultural differences, but I'm don't agree entirely. You even suggest in your own post that "Japanese people" like their men non-threatening. This is a statement about their culture as a whole. You then go on to compare a preference which you assert is definitive of their culture and then compare it to a specific demographic's taste in the United States (in this case, preteen and teenage girls, which doesn't really mesh with the target demographic of a gamer).

Are you suggesting that the vast majority of video games in Japan are aimed at the younger demographic whereas those in the United States have shifted toward an older, more mature demographic? While I'd agree that the average age of gamers is certainly rising in the United States, I wasn't under the impression that Japan's average gamer was getting any younger either. There are plenty of Japanese games (I daresay the majority of them) which are not aimed at younger audiences who still fit into the characterization in discussion. There's definitely a cultural divide here.

Hm, I think she might be on to something though. Because in America its always been widely known that if you market something at older teens and younger adults, then kids will automatically think things are cool just because the people they look up to think its cool. Though that doesn't seem to be as widely exploited these days (its pretty safe to market Mortal Kombat at kids now, we just don't, so I think we've veered away a bit at least). While in Japan they seem to market things towards kids and the older kids just stick with it because they grew up with it, or because it reminds them of their childhood or whatever. I'm pretty sure Pokemon is still popular with 20-somethings over there, but its certianly not marketed towards them. And it usually is the younger girls in America who like the girly-boys, while in Japan, its almost a nation-wide trend. Solid Snakes are few and far between. They still love their non-threatening Marios over there

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Originally Posted by Ouch!

Are you suggesting that the vast majority of video games in Japan are aimed at the younger demographic whereas those in the United States have shifted toward an older, more mature demographic?

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Nope.

I'm saying that games made in Japan, the States, etc. aim at a certain demographic. Quite often that demographic determines how the characters look.

While that's true, it ignores that the character archetype in question's prevalence in Japanese games aimed at older target demographics. The type of character SuperMillionaire is talking about is everywhere in the Japanese media and is nowhere near as pervasive in American media regardless of the target demographic.

Incidentally the only games I can think of from the States that feature masculine male leads all have an M rating. If anyone else knows of others with a T or E rating, please lemme know. I'm curious.

I wouldn't say that E-rated games would have "big, bad, and edgy" characters, but I do think that a number of T-rated games have them too.

And here's another reason why I think games are not mainstream in American popular culture: we don't get that many game-related merchandise here. For example, while only the first Kingdom Hearts soundtrack was released here in the United States, the soundtracks to all the other games were released in Japan only. In addition, they also tend to have many other merchandise and memorabilia such as action figures and posters, and they even have soft drinks and fragrances with video game characters on them! You do see that anywhere in America, now. do you?

No, because that's ridiculous.

Yeah you do. If you go into any borders

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Originally Posted by SuperMillionaire

I wouldn't say that E-rated games would have "big, bad, and edgy" characters, but I do think that a number of T-rated games have them too.

And here's another reason why I think games are not mainstream in American popular culture: we don't get that many game-related merchandise here. For example, while only the first Kingdom Hearts soundtrack was released here in the United States, the soundtracks to all the other games were released in Japan only. In addition, they also tend to have many other merchandise and memorabilia such as action figures and posters, and they even have soft drinks and fragrances with video game characters on them! You do see that anywhere in America, now. do you?

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I also don't see panty vending machines in America either, or frozen meats, hard liquor, or live lobsters... all available in japan.

Cultural differences.

And on that note, while certain ridiculous products such as a Final Fantasy "Potion" aren't released here... I can walk into a number of stores and find numerous video game posters, t-shirts, and other products.

THE JACKEL

You don't have live lobsters in America? How primitive :p

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Originally Posted by VeloZer0

You don't have live lobsters in America? How primitive :p

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Live lobsters in vending machines silly

THE JACKEL

Sounded kind of fishy.

Well, while I generally don't care about the soft drinks, I would like to see more posters, action figures, and soundtracks available for retail here in America. I generally don't see that too often here (it's much more common in Japan only), but I think they should start releasing that merchandise to the masses here as well.

Depends on exactly how they are "big, bad and edgy" - characters who try to be cool and unfeeling are quite ridiculous, tbqh.

Solid Snake and Chris Redfield are good examples of truly badass guys - they don't go overboard or anything, they just "are" cool, and can care a lot for others as well.

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Originally Posted by Ouch!

Because prog-rock is prog-rock, and Muse has far stronger influences than prog-rock.

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Actually, I think that was the one I had the LEAST problem with. I would side with the "shoulda been neo-prog" side of the argument though.

Really though. Nickelback is edgy and heavy? Paramore gets tagged as punk? My god, they really need to make music education a mandatory class in public schools.

I have some related thoughts:
why do so many guys feel the need to act unsympathetic, cold and even aggressive?
For some reason this is particularly common on heavy metal forums; it's always the same crap: "u suck", "RU a retard?", "f*** you" etc etc etc - heck, I even remember one member posting a pic of himself playing electric guitar at a supermarket (WHY?) and he just had to point out that he was kicked out, apparently he was proud of that or something.
Why all this aggressive and moronic behaviour?
Do they think it makes them strong and cool?
They act like spoiled five-year-old brats.
And if someone were to tell them to be kinder they would just mistake that for being over-emotional crybabies instead.

Oh well, at least the members on this forum seem fairly mature.

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Originally Posted by *Laurelindo*

I have some related thoughts:
why do so many guys feel the need to act unsympathetic, cold and even aggressive?
For some reason this is particularly common on heavy metal forums; it's always the same crap: "u suck", "RU a retard?", "f*** you" etc etc etc - heck, I even remember one member posting a pic of himself playing electric guitar at a supermarket (WHY?) and he just had to point out that he was kicked out, apparently he was proud of that or something.
Why all this aggressive and moronic behaviour?
Do they think it makes them strong and cool?
They act like spoiled five-year-old brats.
And if someone were to tell them to be kinder they would just mistake that for being over-emotional crybabies instead.

Oh well, at least the members on this forum seem fairly mature.

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I used to spend a lot of time (and still occasionally do) in the metal community. While there are quite a number of morons, I generally find that it's the younger members who still resort to rebelling for its own sake and generally moronic behaviour. Although I still know a couple of grown men who still think it's completely not stupid to perform in jackboots and red armbands. Image is disgustingly important to metal fans, even when they adamantly say it isn't.

Still, I generally find a metal community far more tolerable than a community of, say, sports fans or *shudder* gamers.

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Originally Posted by Flying Arrow

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Originally Posted by *Laurelindo*

I have some related thoughts:
why do so many guys feel the need to act unsympathetic, cold and even aggressive?
For some reason this is particularly common on heavy metal forums; it's always the same crap: "u suck", "RU a retard?", "f*** you" etc etc etc - heck, I even remember one member posting a pic of himself playing electric guitar at a supermarket (WHY?) and he just had to point out that he was kicked out, apparently he was proud of that or something.
Why all this aggressive and moronic behaviour?
Do they think it makes them strong and cool?
They act like spoiled five-year-old brats.
And if someone were to tell them to be kinder they would just mistake that for being over-emotional crybabies instead.

Oh well, at least the members on this forum seem fairly mature.

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I used to spend a lot of time (and still occasionally do) in the metal community. While there are quite a number of morons, I generally find that it's the younger members who still resort to rebelling for its own sake and generally moronic behaviour. Although I still know a couple of grown men who still think it's completely not stupid to perform in jackboots and red armbands. Image is disgustingly important to metal fans, even when they adamantly say it isn't.

Still, I generally find a metal community far more tolerable than a community of, say, sports fans or *shudder* gamers.

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Yeah, I don't mean to talk bad about metal in general (I love metal myself), but it just seems like many metal forums (or forums in general, I would assume) are quite crowded with the aggressive bunch;
still, like you said, there are a lot of nice persons there as well, and I hope the rude ones better themselves, both for their own and everyone else's sake.

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Originally Posted by SuperMillionaire

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Originally Posted by Ouch!

You're really not helping your case by citing an article in which all the quoted sources are female. Try harder.

Also, please stop referring to bands like Linkin Park as edgy or heavy. It's embarrassing.

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How could you not think of them as edgy and heavy? The really loud guitars and Chester Bennington's screaming sure sounds edgy to me! If not, then perhaps Limp Bizkit, Killswitch Engage, and Breaking Benjamin, along with many other heavy metal bands?

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Yelling =/= Metal
Them Japs sure do like it cute.

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Originally Posted by SuperMillionaire

I wouldn't say that E-rated games would have "big, bad, and edgy" characters, but I do think that a number of T-rated games have them too.

And here's another reason why I think games are not mainstream in American popular culture: we don't get that many game-related merchandise here. For example, while only the first Kingdom Hearts soundtrack was released here in the United States, the soundtracks to all the other games were released in Japan only. In addition, they also tend to have many other merchandise and memorabilia such as action figures and posters, and they even have soft drinks and fragrances with video game characters on them! You do see that anywhere in America, now. do you?

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Merchandise for games produced in a western culture environment are going to sell better in the West, just as Eastern Merchandise will sell better in the east, we see a lot of Halo action figures, because Halo was made by Westerners. The big difference is that games made for younger audiences tend to be primarily for younger audiences in the West. Such as Toy Story Three.

Also I do I do see that in Americas:
http://ui19.gamespot.com/2386/halo32...30813337_2.jpg