Kefka Sucks. Kuja Is Better

Rather than derail the census thread, I decided to make this topic.

So it seems 20 poor confused people voted for Kefka as the greatest FF villains. i can only assume the nostalgiatards emerged from their holes where they hide from technological advancement and good storylines so they could praise their one-dimensional deity.

So let's get started.

Kuja had actual motivation that made sense.
He had a layered personality with depth.
He wasn't a gay clown.

Those are three ways he's better so far. Feel free to continue to contribute to the list.

kuja was a whiny brat, completely inferior to zidane and Necron. Also he wasn't a god like Kefka. I finished your thread

Being a "god" means nothing. FF heroes kill gods all the time. In fact the FFVI party managed to kill "God" Kefka while Kuja actually defeated the party once and drew with them the second time. In fact since the party pretty much died while he was still alive, you could even say he won.

But since you complimented Necron I can only assume you're trolling.

I like Kefka better than Kuja. "Whiny" heroes tend to become my favorites, but when it comes to villains I do get annoyed. And his outfit. Ugh. I do concede that he has more depth than Kefka, though. While I like Kefka more than Kuja, I like FFIX more than FFVI.

Necron was behind the scenes waiting for an excuse to kill everyone and everything. Also he is much stronger

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Originally Posted by Jessweeee♪

I like Kefka better than Kuja. "Whiny" heroes tend to become my favorites, but when it comes to villains I do get annoyed. And his outfit. Ugh. I do concede that he has more depth than Kefka, though. While I like Kefka more than Kuja, I like FFIX more than FFVI.

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I don't see how anyone can criticize Kuja's outfit in comparison to kefka. You remember what he looks like right?
http://images.wikia.com/finalfantasy...GI_artwork.jpg

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Originally Posted by Hypoallergenic Cactuar

Necron was behind the scenes waiting for an excuse to kill everyone and everything. Also he is much stronger

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He literally had no background story or explanation... We don't even know what he was.

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Originally Posted by Forsaken Lover

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Originally Posted by Jessweeee♪

I like Kefka better than Kuja. "Whiny" heroes tend to become my favorites, but when it comes to villains I do get annoyed. And his outfit. Ugh. I do concede that he has more depth than Kefka, though. While I like Kefka more than Kuja, I like FFIX more than FFVI.

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I don't see how anyone can criticize Kuja's outfit in comparison to kefka. You remember what he looks like right?
http://images.wikia.com/finalfantasy...GI_artwork.jpg

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Originally Posted by Hypoallergenic Cactuar

Necron was behind the scenes waiting for an excuse to kill everyone and everything. Also he is much stronger

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He literally had no background story or explanation... We don't even know what he was.

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An Ender, a legendary mind that seeks an excuse to end existence in it's universe

Or he's a crappy last minute insert to reference the older games.

Yeah, he looks like a scary clown. I've seen scary clowns before! Kuja wears a thong with a long cloth covering the back, and some really big boots. That's all that separates the party from his junk, and that's a different kind of evil entirely :barf:

Kuja may not have worn clown makeup, but there's no way he's not gayer than Kefka. Gayest FF villain ever hands down. Guy might as well be on fire. In fact he looks like he is in trance mode. Do they sell men's clothes where he bought that blouse? Nothing wrong with being gay or men trying to look like chicks, but I'm just calling a spade a spade here.

Kuja is actually my second favorite FF villain, but Kefka was the best. Like I said in the other thread, I compare him to Batman's Joker. He's just a crazy mothersmurfer, and unlike many other villains, he actually succeeds in destroying the world. They also don't pull the old switcheroo in FFVI making the final boss some other random villain that had nothing to do with the plot until that point. That's bonus points for Kefka. Necron/Ultimecia/Zemus/Yu Yevon all suck and cheapen those games' true villains.

Also Kefka doesn't have a tail.

Necron was a nod to the final bosses of the first five Final Fantasies, but especially to Cloud of Darkness. A giant space flea from nowhere that wants to destroy everything because it can.

Kefka is simply insane. Look at his Amano artwork. His outfit is what happens when Rainbows have contests about which vomits the most. He makes it work though and is a fun villain.

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Originally Posted by Del Murder

They also don't pull the old switcheroo in FFVI making the final boss some other random villain that had nothing to do with the plot until that point. That's bonus points for Kefka. Necron/Ultimecia/Zemus/Yu Yevon all suck and cheapen those games' true villains.

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Well to be fair, you're told Ultimecia and Yu Yevon are enemy #1 well in advance and have everything to do with the plot (though they could have been introduced better). Necron is like whoa wtf is this thing, and if I'm understanding correctly, is spawned to life by Kuja's feelings.

I do like this artwork.
http://images.wikia.com/finalfantasy...Necron-art.jpg

Yeah, Edea snaps out of it pretty early and Seifer is just...misguided, but they're still the best FFVIII villains in my eyes. FFVIII is just pretty weak in general in terms of...everything. I can't believe it won so many census categories.

As for Yu Yevon, when do you find out he's behind Sin? I thought it wasn't until the end. It was always pretty clear that the Yevon religion was evil and some one was behind the Sin cycle but I didn't know you 'found out' that it was Yu Yevon until much later.

You find out about Yu Yevon after Zanarkand. So that's like 90% or so through the game.

Pretty much right after you leave the Zanarkand Ruins. So yeah, almost at the end, but you go into Sin with the plan to kill it because you now know it's responsible for pretty much everything bad that's happened and the main character's existence rather than it just appearing like "oh hi you don't know me but I'm gonna kill everything."

Yeah, so he's basically like Zemus who is not revealed as late as some people make him out to be. :roll2

I have to finish some assignments for school cause I accidentally wasted my weekend cause some stuff arrived earlier than anticipated. But you can bet your ass I'm coming in to give my two cents at a later time. ;)

After 50% of the game is considered 'late' to me. I do not want to chase something for 20 hours only to find out it was a good guy under mind control, or there was some other much badder boss of this boss. I hate when the Japanese pull that crap.

>>> Both are pretty much the same to me..:luca:

I would like to ask you guys who think x character should have been introduced into x game, I should hear your thoughts on the matter, I like that there was an extra boss to take down that I didn't know about from the start, 1 last challenge, like say a victory lap if you will.

With regards to the whole Yu Yevon thing how else would you explain that the previous Final Aeon defeated Sin and in turn become Sin again, it makes perfect sense to me.

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Originally Posted by qwertysaur

Necron was a nod to the final bosses of the first five Final Fantasies, but especially to Cloud of Darkness. A giant space flea from nowhere that wants to destroy everything because it can.

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I thought it was because it/he's supposed to. The crystal was the source of life and it being destroyed by the hands of Kuja brings the ender of all life forward. As Necron says "He(Kuja) concluded he could only save himself
by destroying the origin of all things--the crystal."
"I exist for one purpose... To return everything back to the
zero world, where there is no life and no crystal to give life.
In a world of nothing, fear does not exist. This is the world
that all life desires."
Oh wait it sounds like...the crystal was still there hmmm...

I'm relatively divided between the two of them; I like them both a lot but for different reasons.

Kefka, I think is a more memorable villain. He has much more amusement value and I find that his evil is generally more unhinged and less logical. He appears a bit bumbling and soft when you see him in Doma and Narshe, and you're never quite sure whether to take him at face value. I didn't think he was the deepest villain ever, but he's presented well and is different from your typical villains.

Kuja, I probably marginally prefer, though I can't remember how I voted in the census. His reasons for what he does are more emotional than Kefka's and for that reason I think he's more evil in his motives, if not in his methods. Kefka's unhinged and that fact is made clear from the off, whereas Kuja hangs around in the shadows a bit, schemes and manipulates. The way Kuja knocks off Brahne was clearly something that had been in his mind for quite some time, whereas Kefka betraying Gestahl seems to be more primal and something he seizes when he sees it in front of him. The thought had clearly occurred to him before, but I see him as less conniving than Kuja, who clearly only became involved with Alexandria in the first place to further his own goals. The emotional level of villains is something I find to be relatively hit-and-miss, but I find Kuja to be believable, to have a bit more substance than usual and to just be generally quite cool. For all those that criticise Kuja for looking feminine or whatever, I think that's part of his charm - he's clearly not of this world, is mysterious and unique - it makes finding out more about Kuja that bit more interesting, whereas Kefka doesn't really have that.

Both destroy planets, both become almost godlike, both are flamboyant and scantily dressed.

I like them equally. I'm in a four-way tie for Golbez, Kefka, Sephiroth, and Kuja as my favorite villains, tbh. ;D

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Originally Posted by Laddy

Both destroy planets

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To be fair, Kuja actually wins on this front. He destroyed one planet and severely messed up another. Kefka, in comparison, 'merely' managed to mess up just one world.

True, I don't know Kefka that well, I've never completed VI and can't find my copy of Anthology, Kuja, despite being gay and despite being a whiny brat (like Genesis), still manages to be pretty cool... despite himself.
FYI, I consider Necron to be an extension of Kuja (being formed from his malice toward the world) and think of him as a third form of Kuja.

Don't ever compare Kuja to Genesis, Genesis is Awesome

Genesis was a Sephiroth ripoff. Sephiroth > Kuja > Genesis.

genesis isn't anything like sephiroth, he doesnt want destruction, just to be cured

Kuja wasn't a whiny brat. In fact, despite the fact he was often pissed off and hating his life, he acted quite suave and in control.

Genesis did whine a lot though.

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Originally Posted by Forsaken Lover

Kuja wasn't a whiny brat. In fact, despite the fact he was often pissed off and hating his life, he acted quite suave and in control.

Genesis did whine a lot though.

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you don't remember the end of the game do you?

Genesis never whined at all, he just spoke in riddles. this thread isn't about Genesis and I wont hear any negative remarks about him!

Genesis was indeed a waste of space, just like the rest of the Compilation, which pretty much exists only for yaoi fans to write really odd stories.

Kuja and Kefka were the best villains, imo. Kuja was extremely well-written and somehwat sympathetic, with his connection to Zidane more believable than most said twists. kefka was just a crazy as hell mothersmurfer and I loved him. Golbez and Sephiroth are good villains, too!

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Originally Posted by Laddy

Genesis was indeed a waste of space, just like the rest of the Compilation, which pretty much exists only for yaoi fans to write really odd stories.

Kuja and Kefka were the best villains, imo. Kuja was extremely well-written and somehwat sympathetic, with his connection to Zidane more believable than most said twists. kefka was just a crazy as hell mothersmurfer and I loved him. Golbez and Sephiroth are good villains, too!

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good villains:
sephiroth
genesis (yes he is)
Kefka
Kuja
Vayne
Gilgamesh

Okay villains:
Golbez
Seymour (maybe not even okay)
exdeath (really pushing OKAY here)

Horrible villains:
Garland and Chaos
Palmacia
Cloud of Darkness
Zemus and Zeromus
Adel and Ultemecia

Why do you like Genesis, yet find Golbez okay?

Golbez is much better than most of the villains on that list.

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Originally Posted by Hypoallergenic Cactuar

genesis isn't anything like sephiroth, he doesnt want destruction, just to be cured

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I didn't say he was a carbon copy, he's a ripoff. If you look at it closely their are a lot of similarities. Too many to make him original in any way. He's a poor villain imo.

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good villains:
sephiroth
genesis (yes he is)
Kefka
Kuja
Vayne
Gilgamesh

Okay villains:
Golbez
Seymour (maybe not even okay)
exdeath (really pushing OKAY here)

Horrible villains:
Garland and Chaos
Palmacia
Cloud of Darkness
Zemus and Zeromus
Adel and Ultemecia

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Oh my... :erm:

So far I think Golbez's floating, disembodied hand is a more effective villain than Genesis.

oh, and yu yevon goes below that list in: Who the hell are you? Get out of my video game ! category

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Originally Posted by Hypoallergenic Cactuar

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Originally Posted by Laddy

Genesis was indeed a waste of space, just like the rest of the Compilation, which pretty much exists only for yaoi fans to write really odd stories.

Kuja and Kefka were the best villains, imo. Kuja was extremely well-written and somehwat sympathetic, with his connection to Zidane more believable than most said twists. kefka was just a crazy as hell mothersmurfer and I loved him. Golbez and Sephiroth are good villains, too!

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good villains:
sephiroth
genesis (yes he is)
Kefka
Kuja
Vayne
Gilgamesh

Okay villains:
Golbez
Seymour (maybe not even okay)
exdeath (really pushing OKAY here)

Horrible villains:
Garland and Chaos
Palmacia
Cloud of Darkness
Zemus and Zeromus
Adel and Ultemecia

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And why, may I ask, did you leave out III's main villain? :confused: You know, Xande.

I never played 3, 11, 13, or 14

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Kuja had actual motivation that made sense.

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Kuja's motivation was to destroy the entirety of life because he felt it was unfair that the rest of the world should exist without him.

Yeah, that's pretty neat motivation.

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Originally Posted by Bunny

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Kuja had actual motivation that made sense.

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Kuja's motivation was to destroy the entirety of life because he felt it was unfair that the rest of the world should exist without him.

Yeah, that's pretty neat motivation.

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..that was for the last 2 hours of the game...

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Originally Posted by Hypoallergenic Cactuar

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Originally Posted by Laddy

Genesis was indeed a waste of space, just like the rest of the Compilation, which pretty much exists only for yaoi fans to write really odd stories.

Kuja and Kefka were the best villains, imo. Kuja was extremely well-written and somehwat sympathetic, with his connection to Zidane more believable than most said twists. kefka was just a crazy as hell mothersmurfer and I loved him. Golbez and Sephiroth are good villains, too!

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good villains:
sephiroth
genesis (yes he is)
Kefka
Kuja
Vayne
Gilgamesh

Okay villains:
Golbez
Seymour (maybe not even okay)
exdeath (really pushing OKAY here)

Horrible villains:
Garland and Chaos
Palmacia
Cloud of Darkness
Zemus and Zeromus
Adel and Ultemecia

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Ok ok ok ok wait... Genesis above Golbez? not only that but near the top of the list? I find this offensive... Genesis did nothing but whine he isnt Sephiroth like forever and really didnt do much else... Golbez who like you know pretty much won is just okay?
You fight Golbez once in FFIV and he is one of the harder fights, not only that but he would of won cept for that whole "Im not mind controlled anymore" thing.
Cecil and friends where losing pretty bad against him, I mean he got all the crystals that he wanted and everything... what did Genesis do besides read a book and say "I wish I was as pretty as Sephiroth" sorry for the rant but I felt as it was needed.... I can think of like 3 FF villains who do what they set out to do. First being Kefka so points to him (Dont get me wrong I personally hate him and his char design but I am more then willing to admit he is a great villain) Golbez who really only stopped cuz he stopped himself cuz he isnt really evil and then Exdeath who did get the power of the void and basically ate the world but power backlash sucks eh?



NOW to the topic of this thread! I save Kefka is a better villain then Kuja, now that said I like Kuja as well but he isnt as good of villain really i mean he ends up saving your party even, sure Golbez is my favorite villain but he is only half villain really so I wouldnt say he is the greatest ever but a good char yes... better then Genesis... yes...
best FF Villain? Kefka

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Originally Posted by Forsaken Lover

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Originally Posted by Bunny

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Kuja had actual motivation that made sense.

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Kuja's motivation was to destroy the entirety of life because he felt it was unfair that the rest of the world should exist without him.

Yeah, that's pretty neat motivation.

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..that was for the last 2 hours of the game...

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And before that, his only goal was to gain enough power to overthrown Garland so he can rule Terra. That's not really super awesome motivation for a bad guy.

Kefka, on the other hand, had motivation caused by his broken sanity, which can be attributed to his being used as a test subject for Magitek Knight creation. His attempts at destroying the world, and his goal to become the God of Magic, could be seen as wanting to feel something or jealousy that he lacked the ability to empathize with human life. His evil was a lot more open to interpretation than Kuja's was. Kefka believed that life was meaningless, due to the fact that eventually everyone dies, so he decided to try and speed up the process by destroying creation.

You're kinda mixing up motivation with goals. The goal is power but power is seldom its own reward. It's what you hope to use that power for.

Kuja hoped to use the power he attained to free himself. Much of FFIX's storyline centers around the purpose of existence; why we are here and that sort of jazz. Kuja's literal purpose for being was to serve Garland and resurrect Terra.

Thus he attempted to gain power to subvert this. He hoped that, with his creator dead and the universe under his command, it would help him rise above what he was born. You can't be a mere tool if you're the strongest thing alive and everything else serves you.

That's why he flipped out at the end. Despite all his newfound power he was still just the same flawed creation. He'd never be able to establish his own identity and become who he desperately wanted to be.

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Originally Posted by Forsaken Lover

You're kinda mixing up motivation with goals. The goal is power but power is seldom its own reward. It's what you hope to use that power for.

Kuja hoped to use the power he attained to free himself. Much of FFIX's storyline centers around the purpose of existence; why we are here and that sort of jazz. Kuja's literal purpose for being was to serve Garland and resurrect Terra.

Thus he attempted to gain power to subvert this. He hoped that, with his creator dead and the universe under his command, it would help him rise above what he was born. You can't be a mere tool if you're the strongest thing alive and everything else serves you.

That's why he flipped out at the end. Despite all his newfound power he was still just the same flawed creation. He'd never be able to establish his own identity and become who he desperately wanted to be.

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What he said.

Kuja was a much more developed/complex villain than Kefka(or most FF main-villains).
And smarter too.

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Originally Posted by Hypoallergenic Cactuar

Don't ever compare Kuja to Genesis, Genesis sucks.

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I agree.

I wouldn't necessarily call Kuja smarter than Kefka. Though he was quite a bit off his rocker nothing he did indicated a lack of intelligence.

IMO Kuja went through the entire game trying to find a way to outsmart Garland, with multiple failed attempts. Kuja seemed to be on a much more winning trend in his escapades.

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Originally Posted by VeloZer0

I wouldn't necessarily call Kuja smarter than Kefka. Though he was quite a bit off his rocker nothing he did indicated a lack of intelligence.

IMO Kuja went through the entire game trying to find a way to outsmart Garland, with multiple failed attempts. Kuja seemed to be on a much more winning trend in his escapades.

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Just because Kuja is smarter than Kefka, doesn't mean Kefka is an idiot. I never said that.
But along FFIX, Kuja manipulated lots of people. That makes him smarter than Kefka in my book.

And Kefka didn't manipulate lots of people?

I don't really see any basis to assume Kuja is smarter. If you want to be nit picky, he couldn't even figure out he was mortal.

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Originally Posted by The Man

And Kefka didn't manipulate lots of people?

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.....Not that I remember. Could you please refresh my memory?

Most notably, it's pretty clear that he spends the entire first half of the game manipulating the Emperor. He plays the loyal minion for most of the game and then as soon as he has what he wants he kicks his former master to the side. He and the Emperor pull a bait-and-switch on the party twice, as well, which makes the fact that the Emperor didn't see it coming from one of his own minions all the more expert a case of manipulation.

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Originally Posted by VeloZer0

I don't really see any basis to assume Kuja is smarter. If you want to be nit picky, he couldn't even figure out he was mortal.

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How would he figure that out? Does he seem like the dare devil type to you?

All the Genomes have long lifespans and indeed the regular ones have no concept of time. Kuja seems to be the odd one out because he was a temporary model.

My guess is he made an incorrect assumption based on the rest of his species.

Long lifespan =/= immortal. Though it isn't unreasonable for him to not know his exact lifespan it is clear from his dialog and actions that he had never given any though to the concept he only had a limited lifespan.

Kuja knew Zidane was created to replace him, but never sought to fully understand why. Nor did he ever give serious thought to his own limits. Though he may have been highly adept at manipulating others knowing your own limits and capabilities is an important part of how intelligent you are.

He was well aware of his own limits given the fact he spent the first half of the game scurrying around hoping Garland didn't notice him. Then when Garland did catch on to his plan he becomes obviously distraught and desperate. He even went so far as to emphatically declare his own power was nothing to Garland's.

While being ignorant of the fact he will eventually die can be somewhat chalked up to Kuja's narcissism, he's not completely detached from reality. He recognizes he has limits. I think he just believed that more power = breaking those limits. As I noted earlier his search for power was a way to be who he wanted to be. If he had understood the fact that no amount of power could realize that ideal there'd be no game as he'd have no motivation.

That is my interpretation anyway. There's nothing to say definitely one way or the other.

I'm not trying to knock Kuja as being un-intelligent, I just don't think there is any discernible reason to consider him more intelligent than Kefka. I consider Kuja to be one of the better FF villains (costume design notwithstanding).

I always felt that how good a villain is can be measured by how much he adds to the game as a whole. And I feel Kefka added more to FF6 than Kuja added to FF9. Both are integral to the story (Kuja probably much more so) but whatever reasons you bring in terms of motivation/back story/intelligence it doesn't change the fact the I was always looking forward to any time Kefka was on screen. All of those elements are just and ends to a means.

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Originally Posted by The Man

Most notably, it's pretty clear that he spends the entire first half of the game manipulating the Emperor. He plays the loyal minion for most of the game and then as soon as he has what he wants he kicks his former master to the side. He and the Emperor pull a bait-and-switch on the party twice, as well, which makes the fact that the Emperor didn't see it coming from one of his own minions all the more expert a case of manipulation.

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That's not manipulation, that's waiting for the right moment to strike. The emperor was already an evil and ambitious man who wanted the power of the Espers(and the Triad) and went after it. Kefka didn't influence/manipulate Ghestal to be that way, or to do those things.
Also, both times Kefka and the emperor pull a bait-and-switch on the party, the credit for the idea/plan is allways given to Ghestal(by Kefka himself no less).
In the end, Kefka just went along with the emperor, following his orders and plans, while waiting for the right moment to strike. There was no manipulation.

Kuja on the other hand actually manipulates people. Brahne is after the Eidolons like a power-hungry bitch because of him. He summons Bahamut at Alexandria, knowing that it would force Garnet and Eiko to summon Alexander(permiting Kuja to take control of him through the Invincible, his plan all along), therefore, manipulating Garnet and Eiko.
Sorry, but Kuja seems smarter to me.

His manipulation of Brahne also affected just about the whole world as well. Wasn't the Iifa tree a bridge to converting the souls from Gaia to Terra? If so by causing the war he was also having Brahne and thousands of others to contribute souls to Terra, but I don't think any of those souls reached it because of the party destroying the monster inside the tree?

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Originally Posted by The Crystal

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Originally Posted by The Man

Most notably, it's pretty clear that he spends the entire first half of the game manipulating the Emperor. He plays the loyal minion for most of the game and then as soon as he has what he wants he kicks his former master to the side. He and the Emperor pull a bait-and-switch on the party twice, as well, which makes the fact that the Emperor didn't see it coming from one of his own minions all the more expert a case of manipulation.

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That's not manipulation, that's waiting for the right moment to strike. The emperor was already an evil and ambitious man who wanted the power of the Espers(and the Triad) and went after it. Kefka didn't influence/manipulate Ghestal to be that way, or to do those things.
Also, both times Kefka and the emperor pull a bait-and-switch on the party, the credit for the idea/plan is allways given to Ghestal(by Kefka himself no less).
In the end, Kefka just went along with the emperor, following his orders and plans, while waiting for the right moment to strike. There was no manipulation.

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You've completely misread my entire post. I never said that Kefka convinced Ghastla to do those things. I said that Kefka convinced Ghastla he was a loyal minion when he spent the entire game waiting for the right moment to strike against him. How is that not manipulating him? Ghastla trusts Kefka above and beyond the concerns of anyone else; he clearly recognises that Kefka is regarded as an inhuman monster by the rest of the world because he explicitly says so at the banquet with the party, and yet, despite the fact that doing so is intrinsically harmful to the perception of the Empire and thus conducive to rebellions against it, he still gives Kefka free rein to do whatever he wants, because he's convinced that Kefka would never do anything to interfere with his plans, or at the very least that Kefka's not powerful enough to stop him. That sounds like pretty smurfing expert manipulation to me. And it's not just "waiting for the right moment to strike." It's called subtly guiding the Emperor to a position where Kefka can do what he's been dreaming of doing for quite some time - namely smurfing up the world to cause as much death and destruction as possible. Or do you think it's just coincidence that Kefka is trusted enough to be there on the Floating Continent with the statues? It's not like he was needed there at all.

Furthermore, you misinterpreted my reason for bringing up the Emperor's manipulation of the party. My point was not that these were necessarily Kefka's idea, but that the Emperor himself was using exactly the tactics Kefka was using on him: convincing the rubes that he's loyal, when he really was plotting for his own ends. The fact that he can't see Kefka using exactly the same techniques on him shows that Kefka is experienced enough at manipulation to fool the master.

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Originally Posted by The Man

You've completely misread my entire post. I never said that Kefka convinced Ghastla to do those things. I said that Kefka convinced Ghastla he was a loyal minion when he spent the entire game waiting for the right moment to strike against him. How is that not manipulating him? Ghastla trusts Kefka above and beyond the concerns of anyone else; he clearly recognises that Kefka is regarded as an inhuman monster by the rest of the world because he explicitly says so at the banquet with the party, and yet, despite the fact that doing so is intrinsically harmful to the perception of the Empire and thus conducive to rebellions against it, he still gives Kefka free rein to do whatever he wants, because he's convinced that Kefka would never do anything to interfere with his plans, or at the very least that Kefka's not powerful enough to stop him. That sounds like pretty smurfing expert manipulation to me. And it's not just "waiting for the right moment to strike." It's called subtly guiding the Emperor to a position where Kefka can do what he's been dreaming of doing for quite some time - namely smurfing up the world to cause as much death and destruction as possible. Or do you think it's just coincidence that Kefka is trusted enough to be there on the Floating Continent with the statues? It's not like he was needed there at all.
Furthermore, you misinterpreted my reason for bringing up the Emperor's manipulation of the party. My point was not that these were necessarily Kefka's idea, but that the Emperor himself was using exactly the tactics Kefka was using on him: convincing the rubes that he's loyal, when he really was plotting for his own ends. The fact that he can't see Kefka using exactly the same techniques on him shows that Kefka is experienced enough at manipulation to fool the master.

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I admit I misinterpreted some things in your post, but the point still stands.
Yes, Kefka is smart enough to fool the emperor, I never denied that, but that's all he did. And it wasn't even manipulation, giving the fact Ghestal's goals(the Espers and the Triad) were not influenced by Kefka's words/actions but by the emperor's own ambitions. Kefka tricked/fooled Ghestal, he didn't manipulate him.

Kuja however manipulated a queen, and many other people. That's more than Kefka did, therefore, I think Kuja is smarter than him.

And again: Just because Kuja is smarter, doesn't mean Kefka isn't smart either.

You're still missing the fact that keeping Kefka around was, far from actually helping the Emperor achieve his goals, arguably extremely detrimental to the Emperor's case. It would have been obvious to anyone with half a brain that Kefka was a loose cannon who was liable to go off at any time. But the Emperor doesn't give a :bou::bou::bou::bou:. It should also have been obvious to anyone with half a brain that Kefka's presence could very easily be argued to inspire rebellions that arguably would not have happened if he had been locked up the way he should have been. The Emperor was quite certainly evil, but he never caused suffering that did not directly contribute to his goal of accruing more power for himself. If he caused suffering, that suffering was simply a byproduct of the fact that he wanted to control the entire world. For Kefka, it was obvious from as early in the game as the poisoning of Doma that causing suffering was the whole point, for one thing because we see him he explicitly admit as much right before causing it, but even without that clue it should have been obvious - his soldiers get that he's extremely screwed up without ever having seen him admit as much. Having someone who's ostensibly on your side going out with the sole goal of causing suffering is a lot more detrimental to one's cause than simply having suffering be incidental to the accrual of power. If convincing someone to give you free rein to do basically whatever you want when your actions are repeatedly clearly detrimental to the cause being advanced isn't manipulation then it's obvious you just have a different definition of manipulation than I do.

And I never said Kefka manipulated more people than Kuja did. I simply said that your argument that he does not manipulate people is false.

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Originally Posted by The Man

You're still missing the fact that keeping Kefka around was, far from actually helping the Emperor achieve his goals, arguably extremely detrimental to the Emperor's case. It would have been obvious to anyone with half a brain that Kefka was a loose cannon who was liable to go off at any time. But the Emperor doesn't give a :bou::bou::bou::bou:. It should also have been obvious to anyone with half a brain that Kefka's presence could very easily be argued to inspire rebellions that arguably would not have happened if he had been locked up the way he should have been. The Emperor was quite certainly evil, but he never caused suffering that did not directly contribute to his goal of accruing more power for himself. If he caused suffering, that suffering was simply a byproduct of the fact that he wanted to control the entire world. For Kefka, it was obvious from as early in the game as the poisoning of Doma that causing suffering was the whole point, for one thing because we see him he explicitly admit as much right before causing it, but even without that clue it should have been obvious - his soldiers get that he's extremely screwed up without ever having seen him admit as much. Having someone who's ostensibly on your side going out with the sole goal of causing suffering is a lot more detrimental to one's cause than simply having suffering be incidental to the accrual of power. If convincing someone to give you free rein to do basically whatever you want when your actions are repeatedly clearly detrimental to the cause being advanced isn't manipulation then it's obvious you just have a different definition of manipulation than I do.

And I never said Kefka manipulated more people than Kuja did. I simply said that your argument that he does not manipulate people is false.

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Did it ever cross your mind the reason Ghestal kept Kefka by his side, was because Ghestal needed him? After all, Kefka was as cruel as him(probably even more), and wouldn't object to some of his more morally ambiguous orders, like the honorable Leo and Celes would. Ghestal needed Kefka to do the dirty work no one else would agree to do.

Or it could be exactly as you said.

In the end, we don't know the real reason for Ghestal to keep Kefka by his side. It was never revealed in the game.
Therefore, you cannot use it as evidence of Kefka's manipulation skills, because your evidence is speculation.

Ghastla didn't have other people around who would have been perfectly willing to follow any orders he gave them without "enhancing" them with their own sociopathy? And couldn't have done the stuff that would require advanced magical ability himself? There's absolutely no evidence to support either of those inferences. He's the ruler of an empire. It stands to reason that there will be plenty of people perfectly willing to do whatever the emperor tells them. That's the whole point of a frakking empire.

Furthermore, I'm quite certain that Celes explicitly cites Kefka's actions as a large part of her reason for her betrayal of the Empire in at least one translation of the game I've come across, so keeping Kefka around not only accomplishes nothing for him, but actually directly harms his interests by causing one of his best generals to defect to the enemy. It's entirely possible that, had he thrown Kefka to the side like he would have had he been smarter, he would never have had to manipulate the party in the first place.

For the most part, I'm staying out of The Man and The Crystal's debate. Though, The Wolf Kanno does want to point out one thing.

Kefka only uses manipulation two times in the game that we know of. 1) When he tricked the Returner's into believing Celes was a traitor in Vector. 2) When he manipulated Leo's loyalty to Gestahl so he could could kill him. So he does do a bit of manipulation though its more for the short term goals. Not that most villains don't fall into this trapping if you think about it.

This is a difficult topic for me, I love both of them. From an objective point of view, I feel both have qualities that either one is lacking or one does better over the other. My other issue is that personality-wise, I like one of them over the other. Which is why I voted for him cause personality can overcome minor flaws. I guess I could break this down into categories...


Attachment 34302 VS. Attachment 34303



Origin story:
Kuja - Kuja is an experimental doomsday weapon who was unfortunately a created with a very strong ego that made him have a mind of his own. His goal is to defeat the nearly god-like Garland and take over Gaia for himself. This gives Kuja a somewhat sympathetic backstory as the player can relate to the call of freedom, but I often feel that people forget about the part where he wants world domination as well. Its not so much that Kuja wants freedom as much as he doesn't want to be the middle man anymore.

Kefka - First experimental Magitek Knight who was driven mad by a flawed process. Nothing else is known about Kefka before then officially speaking.

Verdict: Kuja wins this cause it adds to his character, but I would like to take a moment and be the apologist here and say that I feel too many people make a bigger deal about this than it needs to be. Kefka's backstory is simple, but I wouldn't say its weak. It gets the job done though. :p Backstory is great for building character but often times it can be counter-productive (like Sephiroth whom Nomura still tries to tell fans he's pure evil) and unless the past is important to the narrative, it really doesn't matter what happened before.

Ability:
Kuja is an artificial being with incredible magic powers given to him to cause as much death and destruction as he can. One of his signature spells ironically enough is Flare Syar which debuted in VI. Kuja is very manipulative and crafty and uses his brain more than his brawn to win his battles. He manipulates Brahne and creates the Black Mages to win his fight. Eventually he goes all brawn once he gains Trance though. His power allows him to destroy the surface of Terra and gives him enough power to wipe out Gaia's Crystal.

Kefka is a human being with incredible magical power given to him, which he uses to cause death and destruction for the sheer hell of it. Kefka is a bit unique in the FF series, he's the first main villain who is featured through most of the story and is not the most powerful being in his world. In fact he does get his ass handed to him once and he's not above running away to annoy people. As the story goes though, Kefka grows stronger. Going from running from danger to single handedly wiping out a force of Espers strong enough to level most of the Imperial army and the reinforcement espers as well. He eventually becomes a god that carves continents and burns towns to the ground. Kefka is more sneaky and crafty than a plotter. Using what he needs to simply get his way.

Verdict: Both are somewhat equal by the end, personally I like Kefka more cause you actually watch him grow. He's not the typical super powerful badass who could have wiped the party out whenever he wanted to but waited until he gained his godlike powers to try, which Kuja sadly falls into. Yet, I feel Kefka's growth shows better escalation in the stories conflict. Kuja also doesn't have his powers long enough to really use it, whereas Kefka got to at least rule a dying world for awhile, so his power is built up more in WoR for me. Sadly both of them are pretty easy boss fights... Still I'm giving this to Kefka cause he was a nice change of pace from the norm.

Personality:
Kuja is a narcissist with a flair for the theatrics. He's at times cold, calm, and utterly ruthless, playing the usual manipulator role of previous villains, but once he emerges as the main villain, he gos for more over the top theatrics and homicidal tendencies. He also has a charming way of talking like an egotistical thespian (though Dissidia goes a bit too far...) which gives him more personality than most of the villains in the series.

Kefka is a sociopath with homicidal tendencies. Kefka is loud, not very subtle, sometimes pretty funny, sometimes pretty corny, incredibly bloodthirsty and ruthless. Kefka is not above making the player laugh and it's sometimes difficult to fathom he's not just a comic relief villain like Gilgamesh... which changes once you watch him torch a few cities for the hell of it, murder his own men, destroys the planet, and rules it like a god out of an H.P. Lovecraft novel.

Verdict: This one is a toss up... Kuja becomes more interesting as his backstory is revealed and justifies his personality, but he really takes off when he learns of his own mortality and goes off the deep end. This allowed Kuja to become both sides of the villain coin, world domination and destroy it all for the hell of it. Kefka is just a treat to watch on the screen but I give him points for also being one of the few villains to actually get some villainy growth as well. The Kefka met at the end of the game is very different from the one in the first half, more regal and mocking. Kefka's gorged on his lust for destruction so much that he started to find life utterly meaningless, and instead opting to wipe out existence. This I find is a great contrast to his more impulsive self in the earlier parts, and shows an intellectual and philosophical ideal that is frankly difficult to argue against. I's an 11th hour revelation but i shows he hasn't just been causing misdeeds while he rubs his black mustache for the year he was a god. For me, its a tie.

Swimsuit:
Kuja wears a metal thong and large armored knee high boots, with a white cap and shoulder armor exposing his rock hard abs. He has Sephiroth's hair and Kefka's feather, and is not so bad to look at. Though I can only imagine how much the outfit chafes him and his rock hard nipples when he's in colder climates.

Kefka wears a pachwork of different fabrics that have gone through a threshing machine and then throws on some pretty makeup.

Verdict: Let's face it, these two, combined with Seymour and Ultimecia are FF's fashion disaster squad. You would laugh at them, if they hadn't already ripped out your vocal cords. Granted Kuja gets an interesting fur form in Trance and Kefka sprouts some wings and gains a toga later on. They both fail.

Rep Sheet:

Kuja:

- Tries to kill Zidane when he was child.
- Manipulates Brahne into going to war, resulting in the death of countless people and the collapse of all four of Gaia's kingdoms.
- Creates a race of living weapons from the leftover souls of Gaia, which he then uses to kill more people from Gaia
- Gives Brahne the magical know how to extract and use Eidolons
- Participates in the massacre at Burmecia
- Kills Brahne and her naval fleet.
- Destroys Alexandria with Bahamut.
- Kidnappes Eiko and tries to extract her Eidolons.
- Lies to the Black Mages to get them to help him.
- Captures the party and holds half of them for collateral to get the other half to get something for him.
- Betrays Garland and kills him while he weakened after his battle with Zidane.
- Destroys Terra using the souls of everyone he's killed as fuel to power his Trance mode.
- Tries to destroy the world.

Kefka:

- Helps the Imperial army subjugate the Southern Continent
- Takes Terra's free will away.
- Trains her and uses her to murder people at his discretion. Including several imperial soldiers.
- Torches Figaro Castle
- Poisons Doma, killing almost all of its population and even Imperial troops.
- Leads the attack on Narshe
- Drains and nearly kills Ifrit and Shiva, brutally beats them, and leaves them to die in a pit.
- Manipulates the Returners into believing Celes is a traitor.
- Tries to destroy the Blackjack with the metal arms.
- Torches Thamasa, and attacks the populace.
- Kills Leo and his own men.
- Wipes out an armada of Espers
- Betrays and kills Gestalh
- Destroys the planet with the Warring Triad, which also unleashes several monsters and causes untold amounts of casualties.
- Kills all the adults in Mobliz and wipes most of the town off the map.
- Attacks cities with Light of Judgment and rearranges the surface with this spell.
- Tries to wipe existence out.

Verdict: Kefka has a much more personal touch in his game than Kuja. While Kuja certainly amasses quite a body count in his title, a lot of it is indirectly his doing. By which I mean, the devastation of Gaia's war is his doing through his arms trade, convincing Brahne to go to war and giving her the power of the Eidolons to win, yet Kuja makes sure to stay out of the limelight. He's like Zemus and Golbez who cause untold destruction by manipulating others. Kefka is physically responsible for his crimes, rarely working through other people to cause mayhem and generally, I feel he gets some extra points from having his own allies fear and loath him, which is incredibly rare in FF villains if not RPG villains as a whole.

Both have impressive rep sheets, but I appreciate villains who don't mind getting their own hands dirty, as well as the fact that Kefka did most of this for his own twisted pleasure as opposed to being a means to an end. It just feels more personal and malicious to me, whereas Kuja could hide (and does) hide behind Brahne's greed and the fact he was created for mass murder by Garland. Kefka doesn't have much of an alibi, nor does he hide behind some Freudian excuse for his actions.

Overall - Kuja is a well rounded villain and for the most part, I feel he has something to offer to anyone looking for good villain qualities. Kefka is more specialized, but he's incredibly well made for it as well. If you don't feel you need all the well rounded traits then Kefka is certainly more appealing. In the end though, I feel it comes down to fear and Kefka will trump most of the villains in this department because most of the villains are more concerned about their own goals, if you don't play into them, you will most likely be passed over. If Kuja kills you, you are most likely just collateral damage for some larger goal or were indirectly killed b some agent working towards Kuja's goal. Kefka on the other hand would most likely kill you on the spot and without provocation. He would just do it for his own amusement and is ultimately unpredictable and that I feel makes him a forced to be feared.

Though I hate using Dissidia as an example since its story is terrible. It should be noted that Kefka is a dangerous force within the Chaos warriors, and what makes him so dangerous is how indiscriminate he is about causing destruction and chaos. He is seen even by his own allies as a threat to them, as he manipulates Kuja, Sephiroth, Cloud, and Terra. He's not out for some power grab like most of them are or waiting for some inevitable end like the others. He's attacking and manipulating all sides for his own personal amusement, and I feel this makes him a scary person cause he is absolutely unreasonable and unpredictable.

In the end, I feel Kuja is a great villain cause he has all the qualities that makes a great villain and so objectively I feel he's the better villain. Kefka is an amusing and terribly frightening murderous creature and subjectively, he has all the qualities I see in a great villain so I have to side with him. ;)

Now that you mention it, Kuja does obliterate an entire planet and bring many civilizations to their knees (by proxy in multiple cases but meh.)

I still find Kefka far more interesting, however.

Kefka is the best portrayal of a true psychopath in an RPG I've seen. No conscience, enjoys inflicting suffering on others for the fun of it, impulsive, delusionally grandiose, etc.

He's not some superhuman monster, he's all too human, and his similarities to real-life psychopaths is what makes him so terrifying, because we have all run into people who show traits of Anti-Social Personality Disorder, we can relate to him through out own experience, he is not some empty trope of a stereotypical villain.

I think Kuja will get cold easily during Winter from his X-2 Rikku like outfit. So Kefka is better cuz he is alway ready to receive Santa and get his gift. :bigsmile: