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This is more of a general RPG topic than SE, but more specific than Gen Gaming, so... whatever.
What makes a video games world 'vast' to you. In the thread about what you liked about each FF I noticed a few people praising FF12 for having a vast world. One of my main complaints about FF12 is the world feels very diminutive. So obviously we aren't all judging by the same criteria here :p
So, what makes the world feel 'vast' to you? Or conversely, what are the flags that make it feel small?
Most people refer to vastness in terms of size, which is one way of defining it. For me, true vastness comes in the world building that goes along with a large world. FFIX has a vast world because of the crazy amount of detail that went into every environment. Almost every NPC and examinable object points the player's imagination somewhere, whether it be to some fictional history or event that took place off screen. Also, the fantastic direction always leaves a niggling feeling in the player's mind that somewhere, way back in one of the game's many nooks, some secret still exists to be found. Chrono Cross does this well, as well. Even though a first look at the world map can be deflating (the whole thing can nearly be seen in one screen) the tremendous amount of detail on every island and fantastic job using the double-world design just allows it to explode imaginatively in every direction.
Art direction and presentation is key. FFs X and XIII went with the standard adventure-game character perspective. While this allows "bigger" looking environments, the detail (in my opinion) just isn't there. Square didn't adjust for the fact that the player can see the more exposed environment, and one straight path basically plays out like all the straight paths with very few surprises. Gran Pulse and the Calm Lands (for instance) are great because they actually achieve the larger-than-life feel that previous games had going for them very often. There isn't a ton of detail here - they are simply big open areas - but they make for some decent hub-like locations. The player can then think, 'ooh, what's around that corner?' You can have a player running by a gorgeous valley, but if the player has learned already that the whole game is taking him a straight line (made even worse by the presence of a map explicitly showing where he's restricted to running) then all the potential wonder and sublimity can completely fall flat.
For me vast means I can get lost in the world not because of a confusing map but because there is so much to find.
Taking your example Chrono Cross. I consider it to be quite a vast world because there are so many details and little things that are easy to miss but make the experience wonderful, like all the hidden treasures around the world. the details and minor changes between the Home and Another worlds show how one person can have such a strong impact. Ex: Compare the Chiefs hut in Arni.
A world is vast when it's not only big and open, but actually allows me to explore it. I don't mind linearity a bit, but don't put weird ass road blocks everywhere but the next destination because you want a big open world and a linear plot at the same time. I don't like going out to explore only to discover that someone put level 99 monsters or invisible walls or some other obstacle somewhere just because I'm supposed to do things in a certain order. Then I have to trek aaaaaaalll the way back and even further from there in the opposite direction :nonono:
Though I loved the invisible walls in ATV Offroad Fury 2. Those were so fun to bounce off of.
I think Flying Arrow put it best.
I wonder if I can sum it up in a few sentences/phrases?
At least the illusion of limitless explorability
Non-restrictive linearity
Huge spaces, though not necessarily open (compare a city to a field)
High attention to detail
I really do find XII's to be a large world. I'd say it's the most vast world in the next-gen FFs, even bigger that IX and of course, I exclude online games since they can continue to add content anyway and I'm never going to pay for an account to play them.
Flying Arrow hit it on the head, as did Jessweeee but I'll paraphrase her statement and address it differently. The world has to feel like a world, which is where game structure comes in and why I have issues with games like X, XIII, Xenosaga Eps 1and 2 who all have great detail in the background of the worlds but the game never really throws off the trappings of you're only direction is the next story point, and the game does little to create even the illusion of choice.
Mostly, its not the size of the world but the detail that fills it in world design (story) and the amount of things you can do within it (gameplay). I generally feel shortchanged by a RPG if it is just a plot and battle system and there is little else to do. Course their are some nit-picky issues as well (the relevancy of said quests and mini-games) but that is another topic entirely. I also feel it's nice to occasionally have a town that serves no story/quest purpose. XII is the first game to actually feature towns that had no bearing on the plot since FFIX, and FFV was the last game in the series that had a town that had no story purpose or quest purpose at all, it just simply existed to give you a breather while you walked the globe.
You say that as if there weren't only one main entry in between the two xDQuote:
Originally Posted by Wolf Kanno
X and X-2 dear, besides we're still talking about a six year gap and this is not something that isn't a problem only in FF but in all RPGs of this time period. Though now that I think about, BoFV did have a few towns like that.
Most of the FFX-2 locations weren't required for the main plot, seeing as the game is 90% sidequests xD
XII has such an awesome game world. I loved those outposts and villages that were basically pit-stops that could very well go overlooked by less meticulous players. It was so pleasing to just find them during the middle of a long traveling/battling session and take a breather. FFXII just did world traversal so well. I don't think any other RPG has come close since.Quote:
Originally Posted by Wolf Kanno
Another awesome game world. The first world itself is solid, and then you find a second one and it's all eerie and alien and stuff. But then they fuse into one huge one and it's just so big and awesome and so many little places to go and just damn.Quote:
FFV
It's a world that lets you breathe. Lots of optional locations, plenty of space as well as nooks and crannies just waiting to be checked out. This is one of the main factors why I am so eager to play Xenoblade.
Personally, I wasn't a fan of the XII world because of how limiting it was. Sure, it had a lot of places you could go to, which is great, but I always enjoy the feeling of actually being able to go anywhere on the planet. I don't like that there were only specific places you could reach, it felt like I was being very much restricted by invisible barriers, and that niggled at me. I liked the size of the areas, but I would have preferred they were areas covering an entire planet. I would like to visit the other countries mentioned which throughout the game you simply were unable to access. I would like to sail the seas, fly through the skies. Not have the game basically tell me that I've done such a thing, but to actually have the feel of doing it. For me, exploration isn't just about finding a treasure barrel in an area, it's about finding interesting areas of the world. I look forward to an FF game where you can be an explorer in a relatively new world, finding places that nobody has ever seen, things like that. It'd be really great.
The first thing that came to mind when I think of a vast world is definitely a large world map. A world map that looks like the complete map of a world with its own continents and countries will definitely take me a lot further in understanding the vastness of the world than large, open-ended areas as seen in Final Fantasy XII. Particularly, when it comes to Final Fantasy XII, we must keep in mind that the area seen in the game is only the small region around a specific country, so I think it is normal to feel a little cooped up in that type of environment even though the areas are large.
I liked the world in LoZ Wind waker. While it was almost completely ocean there were a lot of little side areas and challenges to explore and undertake. Sailing anywhere (even storyline areas) was nice because you could explore almost everywhere as you travel, putting storyline below the top priority.
Obviously to me linearity plays a major part in the vastness of a world. I mean whats the point of there being such a huge valley there logically in reach (like there being a huge area but the blockade is like a cute little ledge (which ironically Wind waker is a culprit of (SPOILER)hyrule anyone?) but being held back by mechanics hell bent on keeping me focused on the story?
There are exceptions... now these boundaries were just fun as hell (not to mention massive freerun maps)Quote:
Though I loved the invisible walls in ATV Offroad Fury 2. Those were so fun to bounce off of.
Unless you want the true ending, then you have to do all of them. :p Not much choice in that matter. The game also cheats by being a mission based system surrounded by a central hub. It's not an organic story that allows you to spread your wings. You just hop on the airship and Brother whines about where you need to go. Also, every point has a relevancy to it. Kilik doesn't exist just so you can wander in and pick up some new gear, you have to go back like three times to stop a liberal party try to burn down the Spira equivalent of the Republican convention.Quote:
Originally Posted by Jessweeee♪
BoB - I had the opposite effect, I felt that due to XII's wold only being a part of the world, I was able to gain a greater scale of the world because just this small hot spot has enough history and conflict and strange places to go that it allowed me to view Ivalice as a whole as a great place I would love to see more of down the road, especially since its like twice the size of Spira and its not like IX didn't have an entire side of the map that only had five places to go, I was starting to feel Square was losing its touch on world design. It's a lot like Suikoden, which most are connected but each game takes place in a different region and as the sequels emerge, you learn the ramifications of actions from previous games that have changed the social order. While XII has never received a proper sequel (mention RW and you die in a fire for all I care, that game was crap, and barely had any of the creative members of the XII team involved) it was still amazing to walk back to places like Rabanastre and Bhujerba and hear the townspeople change their tune about huge events.
It was still amazing to catch the references to Vagrant Story, Final Fantasy Tactics and other Matsuno titles, so the game does have a cohesiveness, especially when you realize you are technically playing in what FFTactics called the "Golden Era of Ivalice" (I don't think they are aware of XII's Ivalice having its own historic past it called the golden era) so there was a sense of a bigger picture for me.
I agree that a world map and use of a real airship would have created a better sense of depth, but I'm not bothered sticking to one region if I have to. I mean XIII only showed you a fraction of Cocoon, and you know as well as I do theres no way you explored all of Pulse.
Yeah, for that reason I was also disappointed in the exploration in XIII. Some people might rave about how Chapter 11 opened things up and there was so much to explore, but for me it was not the case as I wanted to see far more of Cocoon than that. I wanted to see the entire world! FFX also suffered for this. I miss the worlds of VII & VIII. I'm yet to really get far into IX, so I can't speak much for that one. But yeah, as far as I know, FFX was the first to do away with traversable world maps.
I see things the opposite way to you regarding XII and depth/vastness. For me, the depth in XII was there in huge amounts because of the vast numbers of people and the immense amount of information for the areas. For me, depth is how much detail they go into, vast is how far you can go and how few restrictions there are to the places you can go.
The devil is in the details.