Raids! All... two of them...

Read the official announcement here.

I figured someone would have posted this here by now, but despite pushing back the release of the important Patch 1.18 (which, among other things, will introduce raid content and the beginnings of the battle system revamp), Square Enix has finally announced two raid zones--one high level and one mid-level.

And at this point, I can't help but throw up my hands and ask "So what?" Patches 1.17a-c have been out for a while, but none were especially substantial on the content end, which is probably Final Fantasy XIV's most glaring fault right now. Ten months from Final Fantasy XIV's launch and the only endgame to speak of appears to be a small number of notorious monsters and one high-level dungeon raid.

At this point, I couldn't even mount of a proper defense even if I thought one was deserved. At this current pace, it's become clear to me that any substantial changes to Final Fantasy XIV are likely to be too little too late. Even under new, enthusiastic leadership in the form of Yoshi-P, the development team proves that they can't develop the type and volume of content necessary to compete with other MMORPGs on the market. Even should they manage to turn the game around with time into something brilliant, I sincerely doubt that it will ever recover to the point that it can compete with the other AAA titles in the genre on any meaningful level.

Unless Square Enix decides to throw us a curve ball and release a number of changes in rapid succession (not totally beyond them, I suppose, but Yoshi-P has been pretty honest about the production schedules no matter how disappointing they continually prove to be, so I'm not holding my breath), I think it's fair to say that Square Enix have failed.

I won't be playing.

I wonder what FF11 would have been like if they had poured all the FF14 resources into FF11.

I don't really understand how you could have been expecting more. It has been known for ages now, by the way, that there would only be two dungeons. Why would they make more if it would hold back the schedule even further, not to mention if they have to rework them for any reason then it means an even longer delay. This is the introduction of a new thing for FFXIV, and the patch also includes a complete reworking of the battle system. Although not in this patch, they are also reworking the job system altogether. Which in itself will come with very little content.

I mean, I'm as annoyed as anyone at the lengthy schedule but it can only be expected as aside from the graphics and the lore (and even some of that has been affected) everything is changing.

I don't care if it won't compete with WoW. Genuinely don't give a tit. I played FFXI in 2008 and FFXIV now isn't much different population-wise, and I had a load of fun in that FFXI and met a lot of people. Until they say "right, we're going to release the PS3 version and start charging you all" just consider it a giant ongoing beta. They can't do content and rework the battle system and all the other crap everyone wants done all at once. The currently-named materia system is being worked on at the moment, the job system is being worked on at the moment, there are probably about a dozen major changes to the gameplay they are working on at once. With no money coming in. It's going to take time. But when it's ready, have a look. If you're treating it as a full game at the moment and judging every release as if "this is the one that will make the game chargeable" then you're only going to be disappointed at every turn. It's a silly way to look at things. They will not release more than the bare minimum of content until they have the mechanics set up (which is what the bare minimum content is there to test - hence the low amount of it). They need to save the bulk content for the expansion packs, as is always the case in MMO's. If they released everything now, where would we be when the PS3 version comes out? There would be nothing for them to release. It would delay the schedule even longer, the patches would come out slower, the whole thing would end up rubbish.

Make changes, test, stabilise, make pretty, go live. And a lot of changes are being made, so, yeah.

You're content to sit back and wait for them to make (admittedly necessary and beneficiary) changes to core game play because you barely play. You've said that you log in once in a blue moon to do some crafting here and there. Your opinion of what dictates an acceptable amount of content might be different if you were one of the guys sitting at level 50 on multiple jobs killing the same few NMs over and over.

Not that I mean to knock your play-style. It's definitely a lot healthier than that of the average person playing an MMORPG. But therein lies the problem: the average person playing MMORPGs plays a heck of a lot more than you. You may be content with sitting back and waiting for them to move beyond fixing the core mechanics (which, admittedly, is all necessary), but most people aren't. It's why people aren't lining up to play FFXIV even though it's subscription free.

End game content will come but they need to at least give themselves the chance to test it out given that, as pointed out, it's now (and everyone seems to concede this) a lengthy beta testing period. When they're happy with it, and with the other changes they have to do, they will then focus on extending and expanding what they have. But until they have it, it would be folly to throw all their resources into one thing when there are so many things that the fans feel need to be addressed. Imagine if indeed they did have four raid dungeons - how much longer would people be waiting? Another week, two, three, more?

I don't know the ins and outs of it, but given how much they are taking on at one time, I would say that you can expect a lot of this sort of thing. A couple of this, a couple of that, bits and bobs here and there until they are happy and then they can do the much easier task of getting more of the same kind of thing pushed out.

People who are already level 50 in all ends of things and that have nothing to do are generally the same people who are doing the most complaining, so they are only adding to the delays before more stuff is introduced. They want everything, but obviously not everything can be done at the same time. It makes sense to wait. And if they are that dedicated towards getting numerous level 50 characters, then obviously they are already fairly committed to the 'cause' of FFXIV and will hang around, keep playing and keep complaining until the game is close to what they expected in the first place and then they will get what they want.

I am going to reserve all judgement for this game until the PS3 version is released. But I will say that so far it looks like the evolution of this game into something worth investing my time into is progressing much slower than I would have anticipated.

BoBsicle: I guess I can only speak for a handful of people, but we're still jaded simply because we spent a lot of money on a really bad beta. Almost a year later and it's progressed to a proper beta. So you have to understand why we are being overly critical on this.

But I'm with Del, I won't give up looking forward to what may come until the PS3 release comes.

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Originally Posted by Rostum

BoBsicle: I guess I can only speak for a handful of people, but we're still jaded simply because we spent a lot of money on a really bad beta. Almost a year later and it's progressed to a proper beta. So you have to understand why we are being overly critical on this.

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Aside from that, the first five or six years of Final Fantasy XI's lifespan, Square Enix constantly shafted and shat on its players. I've been burned too many times to give Square Enix the benefit of the doubt anymore.

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Originally Posted by Ouch!

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Originally Posted by Rostum

BoBsicle: I guess I can only speak for a handful of people, but we're still jaded simply because we spent a lot of money on a really bad beta. Almost a year later and it's progressed to a proper beta. So you have to understand why we are being overly critical on this.

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Aside from that, the first five or six years of Final Fantasy XI's lifespan, Square Enix constantly shafted and shat on its players. I've been burned too many times to give Square Enix the benefit of the doubt anymore.

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Yeah but I still love(d) FFXI then. :( At least Yoshi-P is the biggest hope that things could get turned around.

I thought that you guys always said that the later years were when FFXI got screwed? /me confused :S When were the best years of FFXI?

I think someone said recently somewhere about FFXIV that they are okay with things purely on the basis of them slowly heading in the right direction is far better than them quickly heading in the wrong direction.

There was a period from about 2007-2009 that the development team for Final Fantasy XI really started making a lot of changes that the community had been demanding for a long time: additional nomad moogles in Selbina and Mhaura, reduced entry fees and times for end-game events such as Dynamis, introduction of features like Level Sync and Fields of Valor to assist in the low- and mid-level grind. After that, when they announced the increase in the level cap, they started taking it in another direction completely which was more directed toward casual gamers but revolved around tedium. I never stuck around long enough with Abyssea to decide if I really liked it or not.

And I suppose I'll concede that point. It's at least good that they're showing progress toward something positive rather than away from it. I'm just very concerned at this point that by the time Square Enix has made the game worthy of a monthly fee and PS3 release that they're already going to be behind in comparison to the other games coming out.

They might be. But think about WoW, Ragnarok Online, FFXI. It's not always about having the best graphics, and I don't think FFXIV is that lacking in that department anyway. :p If they keep improving, so long as you like the lore and the gameplay then the graphics shouldn't matter that much. As for the other games coming out, they will be in their own "startup" stages and will face their own problems. They will be MMO's, after all.

I don't think you're quite realizing how much things are changing with the way that the MMORPG genre is headed right now. As far as things go, Square Enix is still clinging to some pretty archaic models. There's big potential that the game will be very dated very quickly, and I don't mean insofar as how it looks.

Where is it headed? Can you give me a bit more info? Don't say "You don't know!"... tell me! :p

Most of the MMORPGs in development are becoming far more experimental in terms for their game play. Action elements are taking larger roles resulting in faster, more varied game play. The typical trinity of damage dealer, healer, and tank is quickly dissipating (although, as I understand it, FFXIV has done a better job keeping up with that) and it's hard to tell where that's going. Star Wars: The Old Republic is looking to bring in an unprecedented level of interactivity with an actual story by bringing in full voice acting throughout as well as conversations including your entire party and NPCs.

My concern is that FFXIV is spending too much time fixing things by going backwards (such as introducing what appears to be a very slow auto-attack mechanic) while other games are pushing the genre forward. They're playing it safe, which is understandable, but it could hurt them in the long run. About the only thing that Final Fantasy XIV does that other games typically don't is the ability to play multiple jobs on a single character, which is really the only innovative thing that Final Fantasy XI ever did. Hopefully the job system brings something more interesting to that mechanic, though.

All I can say is start reading up on Guild Wars 2 development blogs, there's a lot of cool things happening with the genre. I don't think graphics were ever an issue, well except that FFXIV's art direction didn't translate from the concept art as well as I had hoped it would - just my personal opinion there.

Anyways, just as an example I read/watched something rather cool about Guild Wars 2. They have underwater combat, and I'm not talking about just adding z-axis movement to the combat (since that's been done to death in recent years). It's where your abilities adapt to being under water, as well as the enemy's.

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Originally Posted by Loony BoB

As for the other games coming out, they will be in their own "startup" stages and will face their own problems. They will be MMO's, after all.

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While this is true, I don't think I've ever bared witness to the major smurf up that FFXIV launched when compared to all the betas and launches I've experienced in the MMO genre. Generally most MMO's deliver what they promised during development, and most just have issue with server stability and balancing, not fundamental core game play mechanics (most have playable and stable open betas too).

But isn't Guild Wars 2 a totally instanced thing? The thing that makes me want to play MMO's is the totally open world where I pass by people like I would in the real world, sometimes strangers, sometimes people I've started to notice more often and wave to, sometimes friends.

Guild Wars 2 is a fully persistent world MMORPG.

You're really just kind of sticking your head in the sand when it comes to the rest of the genre. There's nothing wrong with that. If you like Final Fantasy XIV, that's great! But go out and read up on some of the other titles in development. I would start with Guild Wars 2 and Star Wars: The Old Republic, because those are the biggest AAA titles coming out in the next year-ish. Also look at games like Rift and Blade and Soul for ideas of the different directions that the genre is pulling.

I'm thinking of it this way: you like walking everywhere, but your constant defense of Final Fantasy XIV's obvious shortcomings is like you're suggesting that we shouldn't develop the car. Maybe ignorance is bliss, but I truly believe that no matter what they do to fix up FFXIV at this point, Square Enix has fundamentally failed to break into the mainstream MMORPG market.

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Originally Posted by Ouch!

Guild Wars 2 is a fully persistent world MMORPG.

You're really just kind of sticking your head in the sand when it comes to the rest of the genre. There's nothing wrong with that. If you like Final Fantasy XIV, that's great! But go out and read up on some of the other titles in development. I would start with Guild Wars 2 and Star Wars: The Old Republic, because those are the biggest AAA titles coming out in the next year-ish. Also look at games like Rift and Blade and Soul for ideas of the different directions that the genre is pulling.

I'm thinking of it this way: you like walking everywhere, but your constant defense of Final Fantasy XIV's obvious shortcomings is like you're suggesting that we shouldn't develop the car. Maybe ignorance is bliss, but I truly believe that no matter what they do to fix up FFXIV at this point, Square Enix has fundamentally failed to break into the mainstream MMORPG market.

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I'm not sticking my head in the sand, it's just that nobody has been feeding me information on the new titles! Even when you mention them I still have to bug you to actually tell me which ones they are and which ones are doing what. :p Obviously the gaming sources I go to don't delve into MMO's as much as they do other games, because with some of them I've never heard of them at all and others I know little about. I'm not unwilling to learn, if that were the case I wouldn't be asking you questions about them. It's a bit hard to learn about these up and coming MMOs when people bring them up saying "they will be better" without actually telling me why unless I push them for it. >=P

It sounds like GW2 is going to be dramatically different to GW and if that's the case, good, because while I liked the cost model for GW I was never keen on what I read about the heavily instanced side of it. I know FFXIV is putting in a chunk of instanced stuff too, now, and personally it's not of massive interest to me. The biggest thing for me about MMOs is the social side rather than the other things. I enjoyed FFXI because of the people I met, the people who would pass by and so on. Some of the best fun I had was not actually spent leveling but rather wandering around talking to people who were leveling, not being part of their official party but just chatting away with them while they did their fighting. I've done that on FFXIV while Danielle was partying with people, too. There's no statistical benefit in it for me, but I enjoy the social benefits (if it can be said that there are social benefits to playing in an MMO ;)).

I've never really been a fan of Star Wars. Something about it doesn't really appeal to me... more of a Star Trek guy, but I hear the Star Trek MMO sucks. I've looked into Rift but from what I've been told, the rifts - while initially feeling awesome - eventually become more and more annoying. I'm not keen on being forced into action. I like to do things in my own time when I can. Oh, and I looked up Blade & Soul but from what little news I can access at work, it sounds like it has pretty much what every other MMO has. Perhaps more gaming-specific sites (which are all blocked at work) will have more information. *dunno*

At what point did I say we shouldn't develop the car? My defence isn't saying that FFXIV should stay as it is, my defence is saying that it's moving in the right direction and nobody is paying a subscription. It's effectively in a very long beta and until the game reaches the point of subscriptions, it's still going through big changes and therefore shouldn't be judged until it's got to the place that it wants to be. If that happens to be an old-school style, so be it, but I know that FFXIV made a pretty different approach when it first came out and either the players weren't ready for it or the game couldn't get it done right, but in the end when everyone could heal and everyone could fight at the same time, people actually started missing the old style of tank, healer, damage dealer. I know I definitely did. When people have jobs, I don't know why but it feels a lot more fun. This probably explains why I enjoyed Wolfenstein: Enemy Territory a lot more than I enjoyed Halo 3. It was shoddy graphics, it was an old game, but being able to take on roles made it so much more fun for me. I love having a job rather than being told I can do everything with one class. I look forward to the introduction of jobs (and hopefully that means healers, damage dealers and tanks, with maybe a few twists for support) because it just works for me.

But I am open to other ideas if they turn out to be a lot of fun, and I am very interested in what changes are expected in the MMO world. I'm just not going to buy every MMO and try it out, I simply can't afford that. I can't play a game that's not available to play, obviously, either. So it's just down to what news I can find, and even if the news is good, the release date is often unknown for these games so if it's going to be released in 2013 then... well, you get the idea. I'm not saying FFXIV is going to be the best MMO ever, I'm just saying that, at the moment, looking at the games available, I don't see any reason why the game can't eventually be seen as a good one when you consider how much time the development team are willing to invest in it and the solid starting position they have already. Yes, it has flaws, but the devs are working on those and finally it seems that they are being given the time they need to really get things moving. I do agree that they shouldn't have released so early, that they should have listened to the fans more, etc. etc. but at the same time that was Tanaka who had his fingers in his ears, while Yoshi seems much more open to the thoughts of the community. New producer, new game. This is Yoshi's game's open beta. Let him have his chance.

I'm not defending it blindly, I'm saying you shouldn't dismiss the future version of the game as crap without playing it or giving it a chance to actually become that future version of the game. They are starting where they need to start as they need to get the battle system changed before they can realistically make end-game content. I'm sure the end-game content will come, and if it's good, then obviously that's one less problem.

I believe in criticism and I actually do criticise the game in other quarters. It just seems I'm very defensive of the game here because you're being so immensely dismissive. I like to think I'm fairly neutral to the current game (I don't currently play, so obviously I don't think it's great) but optimistic about the future game. You seem to be negative to the current game and have already confirmed it in your head that the future game will be bad. If it will be, okay, but let it happen before you make that decision rather than making assumptions.

EDIT: Just read that GW2 won't have a healer class either. I hope they don't go so far as FFXIV did, because it really does take something special away from an MMO as far as I'm concerned. It seems they too are going for the solo-friendly option and all that did for me in FFXIV was make me solo more. I miss the slow realisation that I was going to have to party up if I wanted to get anywhere. I am one of those kind of people that does need to be forced into that sort of thing. =|

EDIT: omg I Iceglow'ed

No, you used paragraphs. You've Wolf Kanno'd.

Let me try to sum up this thread:

BoB: Man, walking sure is fun! It will be even more fun once they finally give me roller skates.
Ouch: You know if you want to go faster you could just get a car, right? You just got to go two towns (no pun intended) over to get one.
BoB: Well how am I supposed to know that? No one's driven one up to my house yet!

I woudn't say we have a car out there yet, but a few bicycles. Which aren't actually out, either, they're just under development. I've raised my eyes at word of the bikes, but they aren't out yet and don't have a release date and/or have little information revealed about them. Some of them don't even seem to have wheels and look a lot more like shoes than a bike. But it's possible they will turn out to be a bike all the same. In the meantime, I'm still going to hold out hope that not only will the bikes turn out okay but also that the shoes I've already paid for will also turn out good.

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Originally Posted by Loony BoB

I'm not sticking my head in the sand, it's just that nobody has been feeding me information on the new titles! Even when you mention them I still have to bug you to actually tell me which ones they are and which ones are doing what.

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Now now. If you are content with FFXIV that's fine, but if you want to get in this discussion you should at least take an interest in MMO community and news websites to get up to speed with the genre.

Why do we have to give you that information which is already easily available?

On the issue of being more interested in the social aspect, I'd have to hand it to FFXI for always being acknowlegded around the MMO community as being one of the best during it's golden years. Hopefully FFXIV does and is living up to that reputation.

It's not my job to give you a treatise on the current direction of the genre. If your news on MMORPGs is lacking, I suggest starting with the articles at Online MMO and MMORPG Gamelist, News, Reviews and Community at MMORPG.com. It's a pretty solid jumping off point that will give you up to date information on all the MMORPGs currently active or in development.

I guess my feeling is this: the only thing that Final Fantasy XIV has going for it right now is potential. There's potential that Yoshi-P will be able to pull the game out of its own ass long enough for it to be interesting. There's potential that the job system could offer a new spin on classes and diversify the game play in an interesting way. However, all I've got to base my opinion on right now is a number of poor business decisions and ten months of painfully slow development meant to correct those decisions. The only things we've seen resolved are UI issues. I don't think that Square Enix has done anything to deserve optimism yet and almost everything to deter it.

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Originally Posted by Rostum

If you are content with FFXIV that's fine, but if you want to get in this discussion you should at least take an interest in MMO community and news websites to get up to speed with the genre.

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I simply don't get information about MMOs for the most part when looking on the websites I use for gaming information. The ones that I do get information on are generally not detailed. I wasn't aware of the MMO-specific news sites until I read the post Ouch! gave above. I thought they were just detailed on normal gaming sites much like RPGs are more detailed on normal gaming sites than they are on "RPG-specific" sites (which these days are generally dead).

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Why do we have to give you that information which is already easily available?

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I can't access most gaming sites (even EoFF's frontsite is blocked) while at work which meant that at the time of posting I simply was unable to get the information myself. It was not possible. All I have is Wikipedia, which from what I read on there did not tell me anything that stood out as incredibly unique. So all I could do was post based on my current situation. But yeah, as I said, I didn't know about the MMO-specific sites. I've read about Rift a lot beforehand and I've read about Guild Wars 2 details on a minor level but I was always under the idea that GW2 was "Guild Wars 2", ie a highly-instanced game.

But yeah, I do respect that my knowledge is lacking in MMOs but at the same time I am trying to find information on other games and I do have my interest earned on some level by many other MMOs - but let's face it, if they aren't a game that is effectively a reinvention of FFXI (the best MMO experience I've had) such as FFXIV is, I don't want to throw my money at something to find out that it sucks. So I wait for the reviews on other games. So far, I haven't heard of a new MMO that has actually come out and been raved about. I was really interested in Rift but some people pointed out things that they did not like about the game and I realised that those reasons were very relevant to my playing style, so I decided to opt out of that one. When GW2 is released, I am sure that I will take an interest - I'm also sure that certain EoFFers will at least poke Danielle and I towards the game anyway (hi Bert :p).

As for the other games, if they really take off and revolutionise things and people start flooding them with rave reviews then I'll certainly be interested. I just want to have certain things that I can tick off about them - firstly, to have a friend who is also willing to play so we can game together (at least at the start before I meet others, much like I did with FFXI) and secondly to be able to play "my way" - ie, walk around a world without having to fight sometimes, tag along with parties that I'm not actually part of just to talk to them while they battle, things like that. Proper open world MMO rather than hugely instanced. Maybe that's not the big thing going forward, but that's what I'm interested in. Not a completely social-only game, obviously, as I do like my crafting and battling, but I like to be able to choose what I do rather than be restricted by "only parties can join this instanced dungeon and this is really the only way people fight things, so..." - but then, they are adding instanced stuff to FFXIV, too, so I'll have to see what happens there...

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On the issue of being more interested in the social aspect, I'd have to hand it to FFXI for always being acknowlegded around the MMO community as being one of the best during it's golden years. Hopefully FFXIV does and is living up to that reputation.

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FFXIV is not nearly as social as I would have liked it to be. Of course, I'm comparing it to FFXI and RO where in both cases I joined an already-established group of people in a linkshell/guild/whatever and thus had people to talk to (and their friends, too) from the get-go. FFXIV has had a bunch of EoFFers but the lack of reason to stay for most people meant that it never really got far. Meeting new people in FFXIV is also far more difficult as nobody invites you to parties because to be blunt, you're not needed. You can solo all the way to top rank in this game. I don't like that. I'd rather I was forced into partying and that people would IM me asking to party with them once in a while, and I would accept and get to know the people. There isn't even an icon for seeking in FFXIV. It's really bad.

I think your concerns over instanced content are unfounded. Making end-game and dungeon events instanced is the most definitive way to secure a pleasant experience for those involved. People grow weary of competition between players in PvE environments. This was a major fault of Final Fantasy XI's end-game. Because--until recently--almost no endgame was instanced, you were often either competing with other players for enemies (as in Sky and Sea) or for the zones (as in Dynamis). This became extremely tedious, especially when many battles took a long time and lots of preparation.

Instancing specific events is usually a good thing for most of the people involved. It may not fit your play-style as someone who enjoys being a casual observer, but it's superior for everyone participating in just about every way.

:( Nuts.

EDIT: I wonder if some game might allow for non-fighting people to tag along as people who are simply unable to fight.

Today's Letter from the Producer is exactly the kind of thing I find problematic in Final Fantasy XIV's development. They're announcing Patch 1.18 as the "first major step" toward the new Final Fantasy XIV, which shows the type of shape the game was in beforehand. More importantly, they're going to be revising guildleve content. More more importantly, they've been doing that for the past couple patches towards balancing it for party game play. But now they're making it solo content? Without revealing plans for additional party-based content?

This is the kind of change that needs to come later when there are plenty of things to do. Make major changes to existing content when you've added other stuff to keep the players busy.

I thought the raids were going to be the new "main party content" thing. And the new quest hubs or whatever they are. Both, I think, are due in 1.18 - although I'm not 100% sure about the quest hubs. I think they are, though...

I'm glad the guildleves are being "stepped back" as them being the key quest thing was one of my biggest gripes about the original FFXIV. I just didn't like them. The only reason I used them constantly was the sp bonus, but I would much rather have done regular quests for the same thing. I like going to NPCs and having discussions with them (well, one-sided conversations, anyway), not having a little card that says "this is what you need to do." So the less I see of guildleves, the better.

Still, as you said, it's the taking away of something which is one thing, the replacing of that thing is entirely another. So I'll have to wait and see how the new content looks. For now, all I'm interested in is the new battle system. I don't expect that isn't to do with battle stuff until around 1.20, which is a shame for me as I'm personally more interested in the stuff that isn't directly to do with battles. But I'll just have to wait.

I must admit, I guess I'm just not willing to accept this game at this time. After so many years of looking forward to even the smallest announcement, it was a major let down. While I had a great time through the 8 years or so I spent on FFXI, I guess I just wasn't looking for more of the same.

I'm glad they are stepping away from guildleves being a major focus. Whilst a good idea in theory, it turned out they were really tedious and not at all interesting. I also much favour talking to NPC's for quests over reading a card, as you do BoB.

I hope that dungeons in general are more interesting than just fighting monster a, b and c and then moving to the next section and repeating until you reach a boss. It'd be cool to have more event driven situations that add to the story and force you to think on your toes whilst also taking away from the grind.

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Originally Posted by Loony BoB

I'm personally more interested in the stuff that isn't directly to do with battles.

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It's a shame Myst Online didn't work out. It was actually a really nice game that was largely focused on puzzle / problem solving teamwork and other social aspects, and literally had no combat.

Well, I like some combat. xD But yeah, I get where you were going with it, and agree regarding the raid dungeons. I'm not optimistic about them being amazing (for me), but I guess for those playing who prefer battling (and that seems to be most MMO fans) it's something to really look forward to. I look forward to it out of interest more than excitement, and I mostly hope it'll be awesome if only because it means they can focus on other things. Realisitically, there will be a month at least of adjustments following the release of 1.18 since it's a new battle system and all, and then in 1.19 or 1.20 we'll see jobs, and then after that other things will start to appear. So I have a bit of a wait on my hands. :(

This is all a little too TL;DR for my brain to ... embrace.

MMO being a wonderfully BIG genre in my life since 2003. I can say that FFXIV is severely behind the times. I compare FFXIV with the original Everquest: It was a beautiful thing, now it's an ancient, trialed and clunky formula. Squenix went into this project with a poorly researched impression on the current generation and "casual" gamers, so much that they've lost investors and much of their core community (Japan).

1.18 could make or ruin the repair of this game.

edit: noticed something. Loony-kun: Guild Wars 2 (pretty much all the important stuff, and it links to the Dev blog for GW2) AND GuildWars2Live is a youtube channel that gets the footage stuff first.

Give me a release date and I'll look into it further, DP. :p I've already read what I can about the game, but then, I read what I could about FFXIV long before that was released and it ended up nothing like what I expected, so... yeah.

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Originally Posted by Loony BoB

I read what I could about FFXIV long before that was released and it ended up nothing like what I expected, so... yeah.

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Unfortunately that's how the genre rolls. It's full of major hype and major let downs.

Yeah, that's why I'll be more interested in these games when they're out. Signing up from day one is probably something I'll reserve for FF MMO's, and even then it'll only be due to me being an FF freak / working with the EoFF frontsite.

‪Blade & Soul - Running and Jumping‬‏ - YouTube

Lets just say...this looks more fun and open than FFXIV is..thats how backwards FFXIV feels. Even WoW feels like it has more open-world feeling than FFXIV with its maze-like map design. And no jumping.

The maps are being revamped and jumping is being implemented.

EDIT: B&S does look awesome, though. It just feels so small, though - how would that handle thousands of people being on at the same time? It looks like a single player game. The visuals, though, are incredible. And I dig the gliding feature. If it was being advertised as a single player game I would be keeping a massively close eye on that. I'll keep checking on it when I remember. Which may not be often, but you never know... firstly I'd need a few other EoFFers to play it as well as I'm not good at meeting new people in these games. =x Even in FFXIV.

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Originally Posted by Lionx

‪Blade & Soul - Running and Jumping‬‏ - YouTube

Lets just say...this looks more fun and open than FFXIV is..thats how backwards FFXIV feels. Even WoW feels like it has more open-world feeling than FFXIV with its maze-like map design. And no jumping.

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ARE YOU SERIOUS.

This looks amazing/gorgeous/brilliant/etc. :eek:

Yeah that game looks pretty awesome. Maybe we should rename the Final Fantasy XIV forum the Blade & Soul forum.

It does indeed look pretty damn spiffy, I must say!

I've been watching some of the youtube videos for Blade and Soul and a few things popped out at me right away.

• I love how interactive you can be with the environment. You know those beds in your house? You can actually lay down in them! Can also pick up certain items and actually have your character hold it in their hand. Super neat. Is this something you can do in FFXIV?
• The voice acting is just fabulous. I was surprised by the quality and how much I liked its presence in the game, especially since I'm not a huge fan of voice acting in the regular non-MMORPGs I play. Maybe because this is the first time I've heard Korean voice acting in a game? It seems like a good chunk of the regular NPCs have voice acting for their little bits and the voice acting for the main NPCs in the cut scenes was especially good.
• Love the style of the game. The whole look and aesthetics of the game is just lovely. It looks like how I hoped FFXIV would look.

Nah, FFXIV is limited in what you can pick up. For the most part, unless it's an official tool, chances are you can't hold it in FFXIV. Even cutscenes that aren't FMVs have you holding what appears to be nothing when you pick things up in them. Which I found really annoying. I'm kind of hoping that you can lay down in a bed once houses are implemented at FFXIV, and Yoshi has mentioned that if cultivation is included in the house thing, he wants outdoor gardens included as well.

The voice acting preference is possibly down to your Korean roots and the voice acting being Korean - I imagine that's a rather natural thing - I know that if I ever heard an NZ'er or non-exaggerated Scottish accent in an MMO, I'd probably think it was pretty cool. xD I haven't heard it but I'm going to guess that I wouldn't understand it so I don't know if it's good or not. D= Personally, I'm kind of in two ways when it comes to voice acting in MMOs. It would be okay if you could still skip what they're saying and move on to the next sentence, kind of like it is in some single player RPGs I've played in the past. I hate being forced to wait for people to say their bit. The problem with voice acting in FFXIV is that the few parts that are done are done exclusively in English, even for the Japanese. It's an odd thing.

I do love the style but I'll say it again, the map is so insanely small that it wouldn't work with a thousand people in it. It looks like a single player game. I'm still interested, though, definitely, because it is gorgeous. I'm just wondering how it will look when there are 2,500 people logged into a server, or how they will manage it. I guess after FFXIV I'm a little more sceptical about things than I used to be. D=

Probably worth starting a new thread about Blade & Soul somewhere in the gaming forum, though, rather than continuing this discussion here.

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Originally Posted by Miriel

It looks like how I hoped FFXIV would look.[/LIST]

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This, times a million.

Tera Online also has environments that are very nice, mainly due to the vibrance of colour and design.

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Originally Posted by Loony BoB

...the map is so insanely small that it wouldn't work with a thousand people in it. It looks like a single player game. I'm still interested, though, definitely, because it is gorgeous. I'm just wondering how it will look when there are 2,500 people logged into a server, or how they will manage it. I guess after FFXIV I'm a little more sceptical about things than I used to be. D=

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Actually the way FFXIV and FFXI design their environments, they are really old school and out of date (box world). I think the whole box world approach is what puts me off the most in terms of the environment asthetics.

Blade and Soul is no smaller than something from World of Warcraft or any other popular game that usually far exceed 2,500 per server.

What do you mean by 'box world'? And how do you fit that many people into an area of that size? D= I can only imagine that there are significantly larger areas where you fight or something. Or maybe there are limitations on how many people can get into that area...? Because having 500 people in that little area would be insane... surely? D=

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Originally Posted by Loony BoB

What do you mean by 'box world'?

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It's the same style old games used to use to limit the players movement and vision - have you ever noticed how there are always have cliffs surrounding everything in a very artificial way, and tunnel you through to the next area?

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Originally Posted by Loony BoB

Because having 500 people in that little area would be insane... surely? D=

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I'm not exactly sure what you mean. Why would they clump 500 people in one tiny area? The game is massive, you wouldn't have so many people in the one area at the one time.

Sure it's a bit tighter than FFXIV, but FFXIV has alot of empty bland space that goes to waste. I think you also find in FFXIV most people just clump up in to one area anyways, and the only reason you see few people is because the server prioritises what characters to load for you (obviously party / linkshell members being high priority).

Okay I just looked up some "Environment" videos for Blade & Soul and rewatched this one, and I noticed it looks very spacious. Not sure why you think it looks too small. Also, perhaps you are mislead - most MMO's have quadriple the amount of areas that FFXIV has (not exagerrating).

Edit: Here check this out - http://youtu.be/y7maQAEHfO8?t=2m7s

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Originally Posted by Rostum

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Originally Posted by Loony BoB

What do you mean by 'box world'?

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It's the same style old games used to use to limit the players movement and vision - have you ever noticed how there are always have cliffs surrounding everything in a very artificial way, and tunnel you through to the next area?

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Oh, yeah, that. I figure this isn't really any different, it's just a vast emptiness instead of a cliff. Worlds always have to be boxed one way or another, unless you just have it 'end' and can't physically walk in a direction despite there clearly being an open path (similar to some places in FFX).

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Originally Posted by Loony BoB

Because having 500 people in that little area would be insane... surely? D=

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I'm not exactly sure what you mean. Why would they clump 500 people in one tiny area? The game is massive, you wouldn't have so many people in the one area at the one time.

Sure it's a bit tighter than FFXIV, but FFXIV has alot of empty bland space that goes to waste. I think you also find in FFXIV most people just clump up in to one area anyways, and the only reason you see few people is because the server prioritises what characters to load for you (obviously party / linkshell members being high priority).

Okay I just looked up some "Environment" videos for Blade & Soul and rewatched this one, and I noticed it looks very spacious. Not sure why you think it looks too small.

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I dunno, it just feels more Fable to me than MMO, but that's just my limited experience showing, probably. And it's not really a criticism as tradtionally single player games look so much better than MMOs, which is why I said it. But when I look at the area, it does feel small. Probably just down to the size of FFXIV maps, which are hard to really realise just how big they are until you spend enough time (and have a high enough level) checking out the far corners. If only it didn't take so much empty space to get to something interesting, it would be even better...

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Also, perhaps you are mislead - most MMO's have quadriple the amount of areas that FFXIV has (not exagerrating).

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That's true. I remember being annoyed at the limited number of environments when FFXIV came out. FFXI had so much more! Hopefully the map revamps will at least make it a little more interesting... whenever they happen.

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Edit: Here check this out - ‪HD Test and Blade & Soul Game Preview‬‏ - YouTube

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I'll try to check this out when I'm at home again. =] Thanks.

Well you see, the issue of areas being 'boxed' off is not as appealing anymore. It takes away some of the realism and appeal of the game. It only makes it feel more artificial than anything. An example would be the forests of Gridania. I was like whoaaa it looks huge! Then i look at my map and went =/. So artificially limited. Even WoW sometimes felt that way with their areas, but at least the area you are in, you don't feel that limited.

MMOs are gravitating towards more single player type action mechanics while still maintaining the MMO feel. Having a slow auto attack, or basically anything not as fast or active is usually not in people's interests.

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Originally Posted by Loony BoB

The voice acting preference is possibly down to your Korean roots and the voice acting being Korean - I imagine that's a rather natural thing - I know that if I ever heard an NZ'er or non-exaggerated Scottish accent in an MMO, I'd probably think it was pretty cool. xD I haven't heard it but I'm going to guess that I wouldn't understand it so I don't know if it's good or not. D= Personally, I'm kind of in two ways when it comes to voice acting in MMOs. It would be okay if you could still skip what they're saying and move on to the next sentence, kind of like it is in some single player RPGs I've played in the past. I hate being forced to wait for people to say their bit. The problem with voice acting in FFXIV is that the few parts that are done are done exclusively in English, even for the Japanese. It's an odd thing.

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It's nice to hear the Korean, but I was more referring to the quality of it. The voice acting sounds like how regular actors sound in Korean tv shows and movies. Whereas a lot of dialogue for other video games some times sound like actors who can't get any other work. Blade and Soul cut scene dialogue: ‪Blade & Soul - Closed Beta Video Gameplay 2/3‬‏ - YouTube

The FFXIV voice acting here is just, yikes. So bad! ‪Final Fantasy XIV - Gridania Introduction‬‏ - YouTube

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Originally Posted by Rostum

Edit: Here check this out - ‪HD Test and Blade & Soul Game Preview‬‏ - YouTube

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Oh my god, are the characters eating raman towards the end of that video? xD Can characters actually EAT in the game? That would be so awesome!

Thats because Asian voice actors take it more seriously than those in the US.

So how is the new patch? I'm just starting a podcast from FFXIV Core to see what they think.

I can't say much about the raids/dungeons, as I've not done any of them yet. I have one for a story quest, though, so hopefully it won't be long. I have, however, been doing solo, duo and "light party" (minimum 4 players) fighting, and have done a number of the new quests. My thoughts are...

- Battles are far, far better. The new system works extremely well. I find myself using actions so fast that often the previous action's animation cuts out to start the new action. Hate-management is something that Danielle and I have picked up on quickly and although we still need to practice certain things, it's much easier than it ever was before and yet obviously other people we've partied with have had no clue whatsoever regarding it and ended up dying. When partying with around 3-4 people, tactics are a must. I understand it's not so much the case for parties of 8 players, but that's hear-say and I imagine they still at least try to make things work nicely rather than simply spamming attacks.

- I really like the number of quests that are steadily piling up. The big problem with them is that they aren't repeatable, though, and this is a concern of mine that I hope is eventually addressed. They don't need to make them all repeatable, but some of them should be. Oh well, either way - the quests are still great, there are cutscenes and whatnot in a few of them too (not FMVs, but at least storyline). The Grand Company quests are good so far.

- I miss level sync. Danielle parties more often than I do and is therefore a higher level with her main class (Conjurer) while both of my two main fighters are rank 26, the same as her secondary class. I want to level with her conjurer backing me up, but the higher the level difference, the less sp bonus you get. I only voice this concern because it will become a gamebreaker for me if it is not addressed. If eventually Danielle and I can not effectively party together then I will find myself in a position where I simply have no desire to continue playing - almost all my time is spent partying with Danielle and I don't want to have to commit to further leveling on my own just to catch up. I have other things to do in my life, shockingly, so I don't want to have to spend every living moment I have available playing this game.

- Some people have complained about the higher MP cost, but we've had little downtime when battling. Some mages obviously haven't mastered the art of syphoning MP every 30 seconds, nor caught on to the idea that when doing leves, every time you restart leves you get your MP regenerated and, perhaps more importantly (considering the 10 minute recharge on a MP regenerating action they have) all recharge timers are set to ready for cast/action. Perhaps when grinding you could run out, but other than that mages should be able to manage their MP well enough. Danielle only struggles when things get out of hand, ie we fight something above what we should really be fighting. Which admittedly we did a lot of last night. xD

- The new repair system is a godsend. The durability penalty on return, however, is possibly too much. I have to repair far more often than I ever had to before (admittedly, again, due to fighting things of too high a level last night and subsequently dying four or five times). I think a reasonable solution to this would be to slow the overall degradation of repairable items so it's a little more balanced. And for me to not get so cocky with the difficulty levels. :) But being able to repair every item I wear, and almost every item other people wear (note: people need to stop wearing things so far above their level, it's no wonder they have a constant need for repairs as they degrade fast and have worse benefits until you actually reach the reccommended level for the gear)... that's fantastic. I hated having to carry so many repair items on me beforehand, not to mention the need for really obscure items. Now I carry four different items and in retrospect could have got away with carrying two or three different items, given that hardly anyone wants a grade 1 item repaired and that I'm not a high enough level to do a grade 4 item. :p

My experiences have been exaggerated by the fact that we've found an extremely talkative linkshell that is often on at the time we are. We aren't part of their linkshell and many of their members are not quite up to speed on what should and should not be done in battle while others were very clueless about how to do anything at all... but overall, they're great for the social side and that's very important to me. There are a few really good fighters in there, too, and most of the others are very willing to learn. We've partied with about five of them over the various days recently and they all know us now. I'd invite a few of them to our LS (but not all of them... as said, some just don't understand what is good for battling and what isn't :p eg. "buffs are for wusses" and charging into battle and getting us killed etc.) but they're all very close so I don't think it's worthwhile. But we don't need them in our LS, we just chat to them anyway by partying up. xD I'm almost certain we'll end up in the same 'private company' together at this rate, though. Whenever private companies are implemented.

Finally, as for the feedback in the official forums, for once the "thanks" and "I like this stuff!" are outweighing the "this is horrible!" stuff. There have been various polls and it always ends up favouring the positive viewpoint now, so that's great. Obviously there is still a lot of work to be done but they have definitely made a step in the right direction. Despite this, the changes are polarising views perhaps more now than ever, but I think that was needed. There was too much of trying to please everyone and it was never going to be a successful model that way - they need to latch on to the majority viewpoint and stick with it rather than wavering all the time. Sadly, the last letter from the producer showed signs of wavering, but hopefully they won't last and we'll still see the game continue making progress.

Where are you playing again?

We play on Lindblum, and at the moment we fight mostly around Ul'dah (particularly Nanawa Mines) but with the recent patch forcing you to get guild marks from the cities that guilds are based in, we've branched out more.

How much help would i get if i remade my character there?

*shrugs* Depends when you're online first and foremost, I imagine! But if we can help, we help. We do repairs on the cheap compared to most people and we grind/party whenever we feel like it obviously. And we're happy to make stuff for people if we can do so - of course, if it's expensive stuff then we might ask for something to cover the money spent, but really it shouldn't be that much, everyone in the game has more money than they need at the moment due to the lack of gil sinks (which will kick in for patch 1.19 in the shape of airships and chocobo rental).

Danielle will be away for a week come Monday, so I'll probably be doing more crafting than anything at that point, but otherwise the game is keeping us occupied until close to that time and will probably be played for a lot after that, too, as we both have a couple of weeks off work and nothing planned.

So long as you're able to socialise and can stand our stupidity (which I assure you, comes out often :D) then yeah, you'll get all the help you need. It doesn't hurt that Lindblum is one of the more active servers out there, so even when we're not around you should hopefully find someone out there who will party up with you.

There goes my 4th character slot~

You have four characters? O_o Why? Do you pay for any of them?

Not yet, probably will have to when the unlimited trial is over.

I have characters on three different servers, and one remade on my first because i liked the character i made on teh second server better, so i made another one just like my second to play on my first server.

You make it sound decent BoBsicle. I think for now I might hold off though, just because I could use less distractions and it'll give time to see how the next major patch turns out.

What was the main change to the battle system?

auto attack, so you can actually type stuff to other players while fighting

- Auto Attack, as mentioned by Mirage.
- The very (mostly unnoticeable) beginnings of specialisation - ie, making classes a bit more unique by restricting what kills can be used by other classes. I've only noticed this happening with one or two things so far, though, out of about a hundred :p
- The removal of the stamina bar which means if you have all your actions ready to use (ie, you have enough TP for TP related moves, MP for spells and the timers on all actions are fully recharged) then you could hit an enemy with as many attacks as your rank allows (so, around 14 for me) in a matter of seconds if you really wanted to. Basically, the stamina bar made the game slow. The removal of it has made things much better when it comes to battle speed.
- MP costs for certain spells were adjusted so mages actually have to pay attention to their MP and manage it better - although they should, if they play it right, still be able to have a near-endless supply of MP.
- The introduction of a hate meter so people can have a rough idea of how actions impact emnity and how much hate they have at any moment (basically, if it's orange or red, you're in danger of pulling the hate, if it's flashing red, you have it).