Raiden: Why the Hate?

So this has always been a question that bugs me; why do most fans of Metal Gear Solid absolutely despise Raiden during MGS2? Granted, his sheer incompetence during the first half of the game (did you say "nerd"?) led me to despise him, and his girlfriend Rose was just as tolerable, but at the end of the game, Raiden becomes frustrated being chained to the orders of his superiors, and constantly questions the integrity of his commanding officers, much like Snake did in the first MGS.

In all honesty, most of the complaints I hear about Raiden concern either his feminine look (which somehow makes him a hateable character), his whiny personality (which I never really saw in him; seriously, I think Otacon in the first game was less tolerable), or the fact that he replaces Solid Snake as the main character (although abserving Snake's actions from the eyes of a less experienced soldier added Snake's appeal as a character to me; besides, if the theme of MGS2 was manipulation of the masses, then Snake, a man who works outside of the system, would have arguably done less to enforce the theme).

In addition, I felt that completely changing his character in MGS4 made him less likeable to me because, in all honesty, he adds more angst to what was already a downer of a game; he spends most of the game lamenting over what his life had become.

So anyway, those're my thoughts on Raiden. I really just want to understand why so many people seem to feel like he ruined MGS2. Granted, he was intolerable for a good chunk of the game, but he doesn't seem as bad as people say he is, and the reasons given barelly seem legitimate.

There was huge potential in letting Raiden star in MGS2. However, not all of it was used. SpoilersI do like the fact that pretty much everyone on the Codec was messing with his mind. Whereas Snake was getting around doing useful things, Raiden's situation was getting more unstable by the minute.

On the other hand though, gameplay wise it didn't have much impact. I once read on some website the staff had a lot of psychedelic plans gameplay wise. One of the ideas was to let Raiden (and the player) think Rose was somewhere aboard the platforms, making him 'chase' someone who might not even be real. Shame though, cause going around freezing bombs is a lot less interesting.

Finally, in MGS4 I still can't believe they forced a 'happy ever after'. Raiden should have died while being crushed by the ship or at least lose both of his arms permanently.

He managed to avoid drowning!

Compare the voice of Quinton Flynn (Raiden) to the voice of David Hayter (Solid Snake) and you have your answer. If they'd just given him Snake's voice I guarantee 99% of the haytahz would be silent.

Raiden is hot and i like him

I'd say Edge7 hit it on the head at the beginning of the thread, I'd also like to add that a lot of people who aren't fans of the series like to use this as an excuse to not like MGS2 and beyond that, considering it sold so much more than the rest of the series it appears there were a lot of people who "wanted to see what the fuss was about," and after being hit really hard with philosophy decided to just go back to Mario.

I think he was kind of scapegoated in many ways, because I've never had a problem with him. Sure some lines like "Nerd?" were corny but its MGS, Snake has corny lines too (yes, he does). Almost every time I play it I always think how he's not nearly as whiny as everyone plays him off as. I think Quinton Flynn's performance conveyed a cocky, yet perceptive, young rookie who finds himself in a situation far more bizarre than he could ever have anticipated.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Bolivar

I think Quinton Flynn's performance conveyed a cocky, yet perceptive, young rookie who finds himself in a situation far more bizarre than he could ever have anticipated.

---

Funny you should mention that, I always felt that Raiden was the "Luke Skywalker" of the franchise (young, inexperienced, eager to prove himself), with Snake serving as his Obi-Wan. Like I said earlier, Snake was made cooler by Raiden's presence in that he became a mentor character, which is infinitely cooler than the leading role.

Also, here's a debate, would people have hated Raiden as much if he had been in the series from the beginning?

I think a big part of the reason is just that you are not playing Solid Snake. You went from playing a total badass that has seen it all and has a cavalier attitude toward the world to a guy who is having relationship issues in the middle of a huge terrorist activity. If that isn't enough they are constantly reminding the player by showing Snaking doing what Snake does. It starts to become "Awww man...I could be him" and that is the big deal.

In a movie this would have played out just fine because Snake is perfect for the role in the story. Raiden would have been fine as well. You are a third party observer in a movie. In a game, to a certain extent, you are actively taking on the role of the character and come to embody that character. I don't care how interesting he is from a third person story perspective. I don't want to be this whiny little bitch w/ girlfriend issues. I just want to be a bad dude and save the president from ninjas!

That said, I still like Raiden but would much rather play as the gruff badass that is solid snake.

I agree with ed. It wasn't Raiden so much as the fact that you weren't Snake. It's like playing through Raiders of the Lost Ark as Indiana Jones, then picking up the Temple of Doom and playing as Jones for the first hour, then switching to play as Short Round for the rest of the game. That's not who the series is about.

They didn't really need to turn Raiden into a robot ninja in MGS4, making him a side character would have been enough. But I must say I didn't hate it.

The majority of the pre-release hype centred around footage of hi-res Snake poppin' niggas on the Tanker level and using guns that weren't even in the game (the FAMAS), then suddenly the game was released and Snake is replaced by this 15 year old blonde who looks about as badass as Liberace on a tricycle. It was pretty bad/ingenious marketing.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Old Manus

The majority of the pre-release hype centred around footage of hi-res Snake poppin' niggas on the Tanker level and using guns that weren't even in the game (the FAMAS), then suddenly the game was released and Snake is replaced by this 15 year old blonde who looks about as badass as Liberace on a tricycle. It was pretty bad/ingenious marketing.

---

Not only that, but footage from later in the game, such as the Harrier fight, was edited to put Snake in instead of Raiden. Which I think might have been part of why some people didn't like him. They did such a good job of hiding the fact that you play as him in the game before it was released that it was a complete surprise. Not to imply that people would have been any happier if they knew before hand.

The simple answer I'd say is that most fans don't like change, especially the more hardcore fans of a series who will spit on pretty much anything that isn't the original game made prettier.

MGS2 was the most critically and commercially successful entry in the series. People feel the need to bash the game for that and Raiden became the focus of that hate.

I liked Raiden personally. Not for his character but because of that awesome cartwheel kick he pulled off.

I personally had no problem with Raiden at all! The problem for most MGS fans basically he isn't Snake

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Dreddz

MGS2 was the most critically and commercially successful entry in the series. People feel the need to bash the game for that and Raiden became the focus of that hate.

---

I don't know about anyone else, but I actually disliked him when the game was new. It's not like any of that success was apparent to me.

Same here. But you've been here a while by now, you should know that's just Dreddz trollin'.

Damn trolls.

People hate things that are different.

It wasn't so much that I hated Raiden as that I hated not being Snake.

Plus when you get right down to it, Snake is sexy hot manliness man, and Raiden is icky pretty boy. :kakapo:

It's been something like 6 years, but I only just realised it's Snake in DMKA's avatar :onoes: