The Lunarians: Great Plot Twist, or Ultimate Cheese?

This has always been one of the biggest plot twists in FFIV and despite getting very little info about who the Lunerians were and what they were like, they are easily one of the most important driving elements in FFIV's story. My question is, do you think they worked as a plot element, or do you feel it was kind of silly to bring aliens into a story that is set in a mostly predominate High Fantasy setting? Do you wish they were expanded or do you love the mystery they create? Ultimately, what are your thoughts on the Lunerians?

I thought it was a great twist. All the way through the game you keep encountering non-sequitur technologies that are far too advanced for the game's setting. This explains it just as well as the typical ancient highly advanced civilization that fell into ruin.

I quite enjoyed the twist about the Lunerians and Cecil, it shook things up a little and made the game different and interesting:D (also, may I ask how to put a sentence or two in a spoiler tag?)

[spoiler] [/spioler] except spell it correctly. Though FFIV is 20 years old now and seeing how its a Final Fantasy forum, I'm pretty sure most people know of the twist. :D

It's among the silliest ones in the series I think. But for some reason I find these things easier and easier to forgive the more basic the graphics are. FFIV happens to be my least favorite out of all of the FFs I finished, but the moon thing happened to be the only time I was at all interested in the plot xD

Anyone who complains about spoilers in a thread with 'Plot Twist' in the title deserves to be slapped.

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Originally Posted by Jessweeee♪

It's among the silliest ones in the series I think.

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*cough*Tidus*cough* Sorry, just clearing my throat. ;)

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Originally Posted by Wolf Kanno

*cough*Tidus*cough* Sorry, just clearing my throat. ;)

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*cough*We all grew up at the same orphanage but our magic friends made us forget lulz*cough*

Whatever you have seems to be contagious. Be sure to cover your mouth next time.

But yeah, while the whole Lunerians thing seems kind of a strange place to take a game with castles, knights, etc. it makes a lot of sense given little things like the Towers of Babil and Zot. Both are structures that feature some very advanced technology within and couldn't even be built by any of the kingdoms in the game. So yay foreshadowing. Plus space and moons are awesome so the hell with anyone who doesn't like it.

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Originally Posted by Vivi22

space and moons are awesome so the hell with anyone who doesn't like it.

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Worth repeating.

I do agree the orphanage thing is silly. But I love it anyway. The Tidus thing I felt was one of the best twists in the series. I really liked how it turned the tables on the whole sacrificing thing.

Nah, just having Golbez who was mind controlling Kain being mind controlled himself was just thing Sakaguchi threw in at the last minute. I haven't played the After Years, but in the context of FFIV they didn't do anything with Cecil and Golbez's lineage. Zemus could've been from their planet without them being moon people and I don't see why having a moon world is strange in a high fantasy setting. Don't high fantasy worlds have moons?

Yeah I also agree about the orphanage in VIII. They brought the factor in, but did nothing with it yet again.

I actually really liked the Tidus twist. Is that weird of me?
As for the moon twist I thought it was alright, it sure as hell explained a lot though. FFIV is still one of my favorites in the series though.

What did it explain?

Where all these high tech fortresses, robots, genetic abominations and airships all came from. Its not so much about the moon, its the alien plot twist that is the big thing here.

Yes, I think that the Lunarians were a great plot element to the story.

On the other hand, I feel like there was a big lack of information regarding the Lunarians and their role in the story. For example, the game credits Kluya with bringing magic and other technologies to the Earth, but there are cities like Mysidia that thrive on magical culture.

Did Mysidia not exist until Kluya showed humans how to use magic, and, if so, how old is Kluya and how was he killed by some simple humans wielding random spells as seen in the DS version of the game? My impression was that the Lunarians were not a particularly long-lived race and went into hibernation to wait for the Earth to develop.

Well... looking at the Character/World guide for FFIV, most of the nations in FFIV are relatively young. Baron is the oldest and it's roughly 500 years old. Mysidia was started around the same time by someone named Mihn on a fishing boat he captained, what is interesting to note about Mysidia's timeline is that Mihn is still active in Mysidia (now a Sage) 300 years after the founding of Mysidia, when Mihn gets angry at the humans misuse of magic and seals it along with Mt. Ordeals. Later "Mihn's Voice" would reawaken magic to help save Mysidia fifty years later, and afterwards, his voice will teach mages how to break some of the magic seals he placed on magic.

Now, Mihn could simply be two figures, the founder and then generations later a powerful Sage named after the village founder, or they could be the same person and possibly a Lunarian. I think the most likely evidence might be that Mihn is a captain of a ship that lands off the coast of where Mysidia was after a storm. Yet, Mysidia is also the location of the Lunar Whale. It's possible that Mihn was a Lunarian that first came to the Blue Planet before Kluya, it's not like Fusoya said that Kluya was the lone Lunarian to travel to the Blue Planet, and I'm sure it took a whole group of them to build Bab-il Tower, Kluya just might have been the last to visit the Planet to help spur humanity's evolution. Mihn also sealed all magic in the world, so it's possible that Kluya is simply just helping humans relearn magic by unsealing Mihn's seals. So if Mihn is the same person, it's likely Lunarian's have long lifespans, but its also possible that they have regular lifespans and its the Lunarians have just been taking turns on the Blue Planet between sleeping to help humans along. Course Fusoya doesn't have a confirmed age in the series...

My problem is that none of this information is in the game. The After Years complicates things further by implying that Kluya is (SPOILER)some sort of keeper of holiness as Kain hears his voice when being presented with the trial to become a Holy Dragoon.

I can understand not caring for the info cause its not in the game, but I don't think the Kluya thing is an issue. He simply bestowed part of his power to Kain. As for the extra info, I feel it doesn't conflict with anything from the game and really fleshes out some characters so I don't mind. It certainly makes the world more interesting.

Too bad there wasn't some sort of data-log to be able to include all of that in the game.

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Later "Mihn's Voice" would reawaken magic to help save Mysidia fifty years later, and afterwards, his voice will teach mages how to break some of the magic seals he placed on magic.

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Maybe the re-awakening of magic is what spurred Kluya into coming down to the planet to check how things were going.

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Yet, Mysidia is also the location of the Lunar Whale.

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According to FF wiki Kluya built the Lunar Whale, so it hasn't been sitting there all that long.

Yeah, but how old is Kluya? ;)

Also, a little digging uncovered that Mihn might actually be meant to be read as Minwu, making this the fourth FFII reference in the game, and it coincides with the Dark Knight Leonheart who left the Death Bringer at Fabul.

Also, you have a bit of a datalog, I've posted links to the FFIV character guide translations in this forum. ;)

The Orphanage thing isn't as silly as people say it is. I have articles on in the works, but even with the GF thing, it's not that implausable that people would forget people from their past. The hints are actually good but work best in hindsight which I like better.

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Originally Posted by MJN SEIFER

but even with the GF thing, it's not that implausable that people would forget people from their past.

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People you don't know that well sure, but kids your own age that you not only see and play with everyday, but actually live with? Hell, I still remember a lot of names and faces of kids I went to Elementary school with and I'm almost ten years older now than any of the main characters in FFVIII are supposed to be.

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Originally Posted by Vivi22

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Originally Posted by MJN SEIFER

but even with the GF thing, it's not that implausable that people would forget people from their past.

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People you don't know that well sure, but kids your own age that you not only see and play with everyday, but actually live with? Hell, I still remember a lot of names and faces of kids I went to Elementary school with and I'm almost ten years older now than any of the main characters in FFVIII are supposed to be.

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But most of them stopped seeing eachother, after certain age. And don't forget most of them still remembered eachother just not completly. Squall and Seifer still remembered eachother deep down, which is why they were enemies - they just didn't know why they hated each other so much, Squall recognised Edea's name but didn't know where. Etc.

Also what did you think of Cloud's memories being corrupted? Because the thing with the GFs making Squall and friends forget is pretty much the same, just done differently.

The issue with the Orphanage twist for me is that it doesn't go anywhere, it just creates a new dynamic with Edea, but it really doesn't add anything to the characters; and the whole GF memory wipe elements in the plot is never spoken of again outside of one diary entry by Selphie, and one comment by Squall. It's just kind of there to be a twist that never goes anywhere. It would have been more interesting to get more scenes where the party reminisces to each other at later points or try to rectify long ago feelings like Irvine's crush on a clueless Selphie, or they could have really shaken things up and have more interesting dynamics change like what if Seifer and Zell were best friends and Quistis and Squall were close as kids but now are different due to the GF memory wipe wiping out those memories? It's just never mentioned again after this event in any meaningful way. Cloud's twist is integral to his character, but I don't feel the same can be said of Squall and Co. The plot-twist could be dropped from the story, with an alternate explanation about Edea's identity, and it really wouldn't have wrecked any major dynamics in the game. That's my issue with it, its just a twist for the sake of atwist ultimately and it didn't have any real impact on the plot.

Actually it does go somewhere - it helps make the Squall Rinoa paring move forward, and helps Squall open up. The orphanage revelation is to help Squall open up and realize that he's not as alone as he thought - which is one of the key elements of his character (and no, he's not emo - he's just always felt alone because of what happened in his life). The orphanage thing is actually may favorite revelation because I've always related to Squall's character. I have articles planned on this.

See I don't agree, because Squall doesn't make any real reference to it after its revealed. It doesn't help that Squall was a loner at the orphanage itself, so I don't believe it helped him get out of his shell as much as Rinoa and the actual journey of VIII did for him. I also don't agree with it helping him get closer to Rinoa, because she has nothing to do with it and Squall realizing he's been lonely for his sister (which he always remembered) but growing up with all these other kids he didn't want to be around helped him, doesn't seem like something that would change his mind about Rinoa who is new to his life. Squall hasn't changed since he was little, and I don't see how that revelation would change his mind. He doesn't actually start to really come out of his shell until he has to step up as the commander of the SeeDs during the Garden Battle, during which he comes to his realization that he actually does care about Rinoa and even that gets hinted at if you choose to not take Rinoa with you to Balamb when the party splits at the start of Disc 2. I see no evidence in the game to show that this plot-twist had anymore of a profound effect on Squall beyond diminishing his resolve to fight Matron. His relationship with the party didn't really improve, I'm mean Squall's true growth out of his shell doesn't really begin to take a dramatic effect until Disc 3 when he's trying to save Rinoa and that is long past the orphanage twist, and it's like I said, never mentioned by Squall or the others again, so I can't agree its the defining moment or even an important moment for Squall's character development. The player is simply made privy to the context of all the "Charlie Brown Childhood Squall" scenes.

To bring this back to FFIV, the revelation that Golbez and Cecil are brothers, has a more profound effect on Cecil's character than Squall and the Orphanage twist. Despite this plot twist being a Star Wars/FFII knockoff, it forces Cecil and the player to come to terms with the fact Cecil has been fighting his brother who was not completely under his own control. It also brings up the internal conflict within Cecil, on whether he can forgive his brother for all the horrible things he has done over the course of the game, which is beautifully if rather simply done with the dialogue between the revelation up until the start of the ending. The final climatic moment in IV, is not the Zeromus battle, but Cecil finally calling Golbez "brother" and forgiving him. Squall never has this kind of resolution with the orphanage, mainly because he's the one least effected by it, and technically, I don't feel the game does a good job addressing this as relevant to the other characters either. They may have gained a bit more sense of camaraderie, but that was already there to begin with after the group was dealing with their first missions, first failure and all the events of the first and second disc. They were all pretty chummy before the twist was revealed. So I don't feel it has any real impact.

Note: I'm not going to in full detail because I'm hanging out at Synchtube at the moment, but I will do this better when I can plus it's in my articles (remember I am currently doing several projects), but I mean Squall's attitude changed, he became more open after that scene. The thing with Rinoa was part of it because he was able to open up. It's not mentioned because it doesn't need to be, or more precise it is mentioned, but not in six feet lettering. Trust me, I'll reiterate this with a more professional response, trust me on this one. This is where using a cheat device pays off (not that I do that anymore).

I look forward to your response. Perhaps it would be better to make a thread in the VIII forum though, cause we don't need to derail this topic anymore. This is about FFIV and them silly aliens from the moon!

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Originally Posted by Wolf Kanno

I look forward to your response. Perhaps it would be better to make a thread in the VIII forum though, cause we don't need to derail this topic anymore. This is about FFIV and them silly aliens from the moon!

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Yeah, I'll post the main FFVIII article there, but there's a bigger thing in general which will cover this slightly.

I like it, and as mentioned already in this thread, I feel like the twist was subtly hinted at. They could have built it up a bit more, but I am happy with the way it turned out.

It didn't strike me as odd at all when playing it for the first time as a kid. And the further fleshed out history via the DS version and then The After Years only helped to make sense of it. I don't mind some moon aliens in my fantasy, I guess.

I'd love an English translation of that World and Character Guide Wolf Kanno mentioned. That sounds awesome!

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Originally Posted by Bastian

I'd love an English translation of that World and Character Guide Wolf Kanno mentioned. That sounds awesome!

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Translation of Final Fantasy IV Documents on Settings Book/Settei Shiryou Hen/Compendium/What Have You

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Originally Posted by VeloZer0

Maybe the re-awakening of magic is what spurred Kluya into coming down to the planet to check how things were going.

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Keeping in mind that the Settings Guide was released in '91, same as the original game, and it contains zero info on the Lunarians (and indeed contains information that outright contradicts in-game text), I'd assume it was supposed to be kept as "spoiler-free" as possible. You can probably reconcile the guide's info with what we're given in-game (ie. Kluya introducing humans to magic and airships), provided you're willing to go a bit into fanfiction-ish territory.

Aliens and technology don't necessarily equal science fiction -- that is a common misconception. Final Fantasy IV is certainly a full fantasy game, as are all the Final Fantasy games. From what I remember, and it's been a while since I've played Four all the way through to the end, the Lunarians were properly explained and did not come right out of left field. Thus, I had no issue with that plot twist.

Firstly what's wrong with cheese? We all saw G Gundam. We all love G Gundam. We all understand that cheese can work.

Now to the topic at hand. I knew about the Moon Men going into FFIV. I didn't know the exact details but kinda had to float around the FF community for seven or so years and remain oblivious to a pretty big plot element in one of the most beloved games.

Point is I wasn't going through it blind and had a vague knowledge of what as to come. Even still I don't think it was really badly implemented. As others have mentioned it goes a long way in explaining things like the Towers.

On the same front I also had no problem with all the characters being alive. FFIV had a delightfully cartoony streak amidst all the drama so who cares if Cid jumps out of an airship thousands of miles above the ground and then detonates a bomb only to show up perfectly fine and in one piece?

I like FFIV's cheerful tone.

I was fine with it. I liked that their ultimate enemy was supposedly beyond their reach entirely. You'd never think to look for it there at such an early level of technology, and they do at least try to allude to it with that guy at the observatory saying he's observed an oddity or two with it.

I've always seen FF4 as one of the first games to try and have a big, epic story (even if it is a bit simple and predictable by today's standards) and I can't blame them for pulling out a few more of the stops than usual.

>>> It was ok, if im not wrong FF1, 2 and 3 didnt have any aliens. So it was a move that needed to be made..:luca:

As someone who has enjoyed many a ~cheeseball~ plot, I'm in no real place to judge, but I do know it was a plot twist that I loved and somehow managed to remain unspoiled on for all these years. I don't think it was dumb/a cop out/out of place, either way. I felt they did a good job developing and explaining it in a way that had a logical progression. I wouldn't say it's perfect, but I think of the voice Cecil heard after becoming a paladin and consider that to be a small link. Not necessarily to the fact that it was the MOON, but that there was something bigger happening...because, well, Cecil didn't act like voices coming out of nowhere were normal even in FFIV Land. I also agree that the Lunarians serve to explain the towers nicely.

Besides, it's a Final Fantasy game, so I kind of expect crazy things to happen that will set one game apart from the others in the series. <3