which game had the most UNREALIZED POTENTIAL?

i feel like FFXII had the most unrealized potential of all the FF games... i actually really liked the game and it is my 3rd favorite (a distant 3rd, granted) behind IX (#1) and X (#2) but something was off with it

and i know Chrono Cross isn FF.... but after playing that game i felt like it SHOULD have been the greatest game ever made (the music... amazing... except for the battle theme.. wtf were they thinking???) but it had a few unforgivable flaws which really killed it... i still really loved that game as well though...

so what do you think? do you agree with my choices? what are yours?

Hm... this requires some thought.

For the boring answer I am going to go with FF2. I unfortunately can't take the game seriously because of it's leveling system, had they gone a bit more conventional it probably could have stuck in the collective FF fan consciousness a little better. But lets move on to an answer with a little more exposition and controversy.

I am going to vote FF13. I consider it equal to FF12 in many respects, but I think it actually has a much better base to build off of.

First off the setting is more conducive to a 'Final Fantasy' game. I am much more concerned about the fate of an entire planet than the succession squabble of a small desert nation, thank you very much.

Secondly the battle system is a lot easier to improve right off the bat. Allow you to modify the default job AI's via a gambit like system? Miles ahead already. The idea of taking your role away from micromanaging abilities to tactical decisions had potential, but the only problem was the tactical options you had available to you were exceedingly simple. It could have been fleshed out (and made speed a lot less important) to add some strategic depth.

XIII, because it was bad on nearly every level. It didn't even have a usable map for god's sake.

A more constructive answer: VIII. Seriously, I love nearly every mechanic and setting in this game except for the way it all got put together. The Junction system had so much potential but Square kind of shot themselves in the foot by making high-level spells so easy to acquire. Every time I want to go play it, I hold off because it'll just be so depressingly easy. I could always, like, not go for high level spells right off, but then I literally wouldn't be playing the game properly. FFVIII is like the definition of poor balance.

Setting-wise I loved it, but I just wish the towns felt like a more cohesive world with each other. I love places like Dollet, Deling City, and Winhill, but they all end up feeling very isolated from each other in the way the game kind of carts you along to one place after another and never really brings you back to any of them. Also, because the game is structured a little more hub-like (rather than straight-ahead adventuring a la VII) I never really got a good feel for the world map. Then there's the whole thing with the story falling apart after disc 2... and the orphanage... and Ultimecia... and... oh god I'll stop. I still love FFVIII but I don't really know why..

I would have to concur with VIII. I found the Junction system useless (though I rarely bothered to draw magic, which may be the problem) and just spammed the summons throughout the whole game, and those goddamn cutscenes got boring really fast. The storyline was OK, though I didn't find it incredibly engaging, but maybe that's because the gameplay was bothering me so much. I think had it had a battle system I could get into, my opinion of it would be much higher.

This is actually hard for me, because I would probably say all of them had some unrealized potential to some degree. I mean outside of FFV, I can't think of a single FF game whose battle system doesn't need some form of balancing or re-tooling. In terms of scenario, I think a lot of them could have used some better expanding in some areas. If I'm going to go overall, I would probably say FFVIII and XIII are the biggest offenders. Both games are filled with great concepts in both gameplay and the scenario and both fall short overall.

FFVIII - Junctioning needs to be re-balanced, its a munchkins wet dream of power maxing with minimal effort. Even its attempts to balance it are so pathetically weak, all they do is restrict efficiency to one play-style and make battles far more tedious than they should be. I agree that VIII's world, including its towns feel very distant to the scenario. Like Flying Arrow points out, I blame it on the game revolving around using Garden as a central hub, instead using the old stand-by journey set-up 99% of RPGs use. Its a nice change of pace, I just wish there was a reason to return to some places beyond doing the Queen of Cards quest. Even some of the mini-sidequests are so random because they involve the map that most people have probably never realized they are there without a guide, and again, none of them really net you anything worthwhile. Weapon customization is a cool concept but it only affects one character (Squall) there is no reason to upgrade anyone's weapons besides his, because the upgrades are not as useful as good Junctioning.

For the scenario... I'll steer clear of the more touchy subjects among fans and simply say that I feel the supporting cast needs to be fleshed out. I mean all of Squall's comrades basically have the same past, and despite all of them being adopted, you only hear about Zell's family, what about everyone else? Why not expand some of the other SeeDs in Garden? I mean who the hell is Xu and why should I give a damn? I would also like a better explanation about what GFs are and what Junctioning is. Who were the Centra? I mean their technology is important to the plot, but for a group of people who were wiped out less than a hundred years ago, you sure don't learn anything relevant about them. You know more about the Cetra than you do the Centra. Why are monsters on the moon? Is it a real moon like we know it, or is it like a mini-planet with its own environment? What are the Sorceress like when their not despots? Do they have their own culture and rules for living in the world of man? If Hyne was never going to factor into the plot at all, why even bother mentioning him? For a character as important to the plot as Adel is, you really don't learn anything about her. How did Esthar become so technologically advanced? What about expanding Odine, or Ultimecia? Why is Seifer so heavy in the artwork and PR stuff, but is ultimately a glorified flunky no better than Rubicant or Borghen? I feel like he was intended for greater things, I mean the love triangle really doesn't exist beyond the concept art. What about NORG's race? Are they simply here to add some colorful flavor to the species on the planet (as well as explain NORG and one scenario with Laguna) or do they actually have a more entwined relationship with mankind and the sorceress?

Then there is FFXIII, as a game, I would have liked more differing skills between characters. I miss not having steal, throw, and gil toss. Skills are the spice of life. I also hate how the game is pretty much set-up to let you use any character. Even Sahz, Vanille, and Snow who only can use half the elements in the game, chances are, the enemy is going to be weak to one of those elements, so what was the point in not making them use all the elements? I mean outside of stats and when they learn a skill, there is very little difference in the roles between characters when you look at the skills. I would have liked more skills or special spells that would differentiate all the characters from each other a little more when using roles that multiple characters share. I would also prefer combat to be slowed down and more methodical, if the point of making them fast is because people don't want to fight minor encounters, its because the combat is lousy, not because the system is tedious, people who don't want gameplay to interfere with plot are better off watching youtube videos or sticking to visual novel games.

I mean, what made games exciting in FFIV, VI, VII, and IX is that you are constantly being assaulted with new skills and characters, that changed battles. Its hard to get bored when new aspects are being introduced constantly that really change battles and your strategy, and by the time these games stop offering new abilities or characters, you have a wealth of customization to work with. You don't get this in XIII, your first high point is having the Paradigm system unlocked in Chapter 3, equipment is in Chapter 4 but it won't be relevant until Chapter 9, of which Chapter 9 is the last high point because that's when you finally get a full party and one new character. There are just long spans of time where nothing new is being introduced and battles become boring cause your just using the same paradigm set-ups over and over again.

The equipment system itself is a disaster because the growth of weapons takes too long, requires way more grinding than is necessary, and many of their skills are not really that useful. There is a great class system with the weapons and accessories, but most players without a guide won't know it because the game never explains it, course half of them are utterly worthless after the first few chapter but it was an interesting concept for the equipment system that should have been expanded and would have given the player a greater sense of customization. Speaking of which, the Crysterium is awful, what it really should have done is mix your stats with the roles themselves, so if you want to raise magic, you have to raise Ravager or Medic, for attack, COM, for HP go for Sentinel and then you could have SAB and SYN be the hodge-podge set. This would have actually made which roles you leveled matter more in the long run and actually give you some control over how your characters developed. Less linear dungeons and maybe some breathing room to actually learn more about Cocoon and appreciate it.

As for plot... Well that can wait for another day.

XIII unquestionably in my book, because I enjoyed the rest of the series so much, the only way they could've lived up to more potential is if they closed the gap between their greatness and original design. XIII on the other hand... I got chills when the trailer came out, I must've watched it a thousand times in anticipation of getting my PS3, and the music gave me chills nearly every time. All the crazy action and beautiful landscapes seemed exactly what the series was all about, then it turned out they had no game design at that point and still wouldn't until about 3 years into the project. Like the game, but it's hard to understand how one of the premier houses in gaming stuttered so badly... ok I guess it's not hard to understand, we discuss it here all the time...

This is a great thread though because I believe Uematsu said the only thing the FF games have in common is that they're all unfinished.

Bolivar, every post I see of yours on XIII you seem more and more down on it (I think you were one of the few around here who actually liked the game). I wish I could collect your last 20 or so posts and trace out the decline.

Difficult to say, because I feel every single Final Fantasy had unrealized potential. However, I'm gonna go with Final Fantasy X-2.
I'm surprised this hasn't been mentioned yet. The job system is great, but could've been better. I think the option to put monsters in your party (in the International version), training their stats and having them learn unique abilities is a great concept that had the unfortunate side-effect of making the game way too easy, because the monsters were just too strong.
Also, the whole idea of the whole world being open and almost everything being visitable at any point during the game is interesting, but there was so much that could've been improved. To sum things up, everything in this game could've been so much better.

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Originally Posted by Flying Arrow

Bolivar, every post I see of yours on XIII you seem more and more down on it (I think you were one of the few around here who actually liked the game). I wish I could collect your last 20 or so posts and trace out the decline.

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LOL yo i might actually do that and make it my first entry in that new blog thingy they got here.

But, no, I definitely liked FFXIII. Obviously I'm a big RPG guy, I play a lot of the classics and I play a lot of the modern classics, but I'm also a big PS3 gamer so FFXIII wasn't any worse than the quality of modern games that I'm used to. I've played a lot of games like FFXIII in the last few years so it wasn't like I was taken by surprise by the philosophy of its game design. But as someone who's played these games for a very long time I would expect Square to rise above the milieu of current games today, Kojima was able to do it with MGS4, I feel Rockstar just barely did it with GTA IV, and Sega may have done it with Valkyria Chronicles (it's a modern classic, just don't know if I feel it shatters the mold of gaming today). I just feel like there isn't any excuse for Final Fantasy to not be a mindblowing, phenomenal gaming experience.

FF X-2 is an interesting choice, though I haven't played it yet and can't comment. I don't really agree with XIII, I think that it didn't really need much improvement compared to, say VIII or II.

Definitely FFX-2. There is actually some pretty good writing in the game here and there :(

I would have to agree with FFX-2. The battle system was simply outstanding. The dressing up and 'let's put on a concert!' plot was lame, as was the whole Shuyin crap. This battle system put in a backdrop such as FFXII may have made it among the best FFs ever.

Everyone's saying that X-2 had an awesome battle system - guess I'll finally have to play it to see, but I have to finish X first (yes, I haven't finished it - a lot of my favourites in the series I haven't completed yet).

Yeah, the battle system in X-2 definitely makes the game.

XII or XIII I guess, not a big fan of those despite that they had potential to be good.

Wow, surprised about the XII and XIII hate, I rather enjoyed them both. But yes, I suppose they're not as strong as some entries in the series. Still, good enough that I don't think they should be considered the ones with the most unrealized potential.

>>> FF3..:luca:

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Originally Posted by Vincent, Thunder God

Wow, surprised about the XII ... hate.

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I'll remedy this. XII is the best Final Fantasy game.

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Originally Posted by Flying Arrow

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Originally Posted by Vincent, Thunder God

Wow, surprised about the XII ... hate.

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I'll remedy this. XII is the best Final Fantasy game.

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Agreed. It needs more love.

I don't think FFXII had the most unrealized potential. In fact, FFXII may be the one FF that fully realized its potential. That doesn't mean everyone will like it. It's unique among the single player FF games, the most unique FF since FFII. Both FFII and FFXII are near the bottom of my list of favorites because I didn't like the directions they went.

Not liking a game is not the same as it having unrealized potential. A well-made, fully-realized game will still have people who don't like it if the actual gameplay doesn't appeal to people.

^ I agree. I know the final result may have been different if Matsuno was able to put his trademark... feel into it, but that game was huge in every respect, there was simply so much in it, and although the pacing could've used more story, I can't possibly see them pulling more out of the plot.