The article says it all, have at it.
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All I will say is that when the developer has to come out and justify the fact that they are making a game it isn't a positive sign.
The comments are much better than the article.
Hardcore old school FF fans... that only place stock in games made after 95... :roll2Quote:
The hardcore Final Fantasy fans of the PlayStation Era, 1995 – 2006 will know that the games people enjoyed most were numbers 7 through 10...
When did Bill O'Reilly start writing video game articles?
Good point.Quote:
Originally Posted by VeloZer0
Seems like the basic answer is 'it was easier than doing something original.'
It is very common question, "should they have made a sequel to FFXIII" ? Simply, their is a vocal minority which try so hard to press their views on what a company should do and shouldn't about FFXIII-2/remake of this and that, etc.Quote:
Originally Posted by VeloZer0
VeloZer0 nailed it.
I'm impressed with your restraint though Wolf. I figured you'd be as annoyed by this game as I am. I don't have a problem with a sequel if it's a sequel to a good game, that improves on that game, and if the original left a good jumping off point for a sequel.
But since I don't think FFXIII meets these criteria, let alone was good enough to justify iterating on it, this just stinks of Square wanting some easy money and knowing it will sell millions regardless of what they do.
Eh, I still think it will probably be worth playing through once. Just not at full retail release day pricing. Unfortunately RPGs generally take quite some time to go down in price so I don't know when I will be getting to it. (Not to mention the bad message I am sending to SE by buying it close to release)
Quote:
Originally Posted by Murder
ThisQuote:
'it was easier than doing something original.'
And this.Quote:
it will sell millions regardless
Anyone who thinks this article is some sort of actual discovery or is somehow a poor reflection on the game or SE as a company is paranoid/dumb. His reasoning as to why FFXIII-2 is being made is the same basic reasoning behind 99% of all sequels ever. It's easy cash and cheaper than starting fresh, and easier than being original.
Also, there still seem to be people who think video game companies are developing games for some primary reason other than turning the biggest profit they can. lol.
The only question is what the companies business model is on making said money.Quote:
Also, there still seem to be people who think video game companies are developing games for some primary reason other than turning the biggest profit they can
Lol. People can't be passionate in what they do?Quote:
Originally Posted by DMKA
I promised myself and the rest of staff, not to troll XIII as much. Granted, I do feel the gameplay changes with XIII-2 actually sound like great steps in the right direction, I pretty much have no hope for the plot, since I hated XIII's cast and story so I doubt a sequel is going to redeem it, especially with a time travel plot and FFs track record with time travel plots. I find it amusing they keep comparing the game to Chrono Trigger without recognizing that Chrono Trigger was successful thanks to a series of great people who have no hand in working on XIII-2 (Kato anyone?). I've already done my initial "no sequels to FF" rant before.Quote:
Originally Posted by Vivi22
If this article has done anything, it has just proven to me that Kitase and Squenix, no longer believe in the series creator's philosophy for making FF great, which anyone can read from my signature. Sakeguchi believed you had to move away from re-using old plots and characters because it was limiting and made you lazy. Besides, I still stand by my interpretation that FF was always about seeing the last grand adventure of a world. Granted, I don't blame them for ditching the ideal, SE has scared off most of its real talent, and now that Wada is doing more executive meddling to make it more appealing for fans (not realizing its a fractured fanbase that spans over two decades) by trying to make something that will make everyone happy is not going to happen.
Looks like we actually have a meeting of the minds about something.Quote:
I still stand by my interpretation that FF was always about seeing the last grand adventure of a world.
True, It's all about how they really don't know how to make a full FF game from scratch without reaching Duke Nukem Forever's delay vapourware hell. A company need to sell stuff to make money, and they can't sell if they don't have a product.Quote:
Originally Posted by Wolf KannoI promised myself and the rest of staff, not to troll XIII as much. Granted, I do feel the gameplay changes with XIII-2 actually sound like great steps in the right direction, I pretty much have no hope for the plot, since I hated XIII's cast and story so I doubt a sequel is going to redeem it, especially with a time travel plot and FFs track record with time travel plots. I find it amusing they keep comparing the game to Chrono Trigger without recognizing that Chrono Trigger was successful thanks to a series of great people who have no hand in working on XIII-2 (Kato anyone?). I've already done my initial "no sequels to FF" rant before.Quote:
Originally Posted by Vivi22
If this article has done anything, it has just proven to me that Kitase and Squenix, no longer believe in the series creator's philosophy for making FF great, which anyone can read from my signature. Sakeguchi believed you had to move away from re-using old plots and characters because it was limiting and made you lazy. Besides, I still stand by my interpretation that FF was always about seeing the last grand adventure of a world. Granted, I don't blame them for ditching the ideal, SE has scared off most of its real talent, and now that Wada is doing more executive meddling to make it more appealing for fans (not realizing its a fractured fanbase that spans over two decades) by trying to make something that will make everyone happy is not going to happen.
Um, is it just me, or did most fans not like the environment, the characters, and the basic storyline??? :erm:Quote:
Originally Posted by Yoshinori Kitase
Overrated.Quote:
Originally Posted by Wolf Kanno
No, they're not allowed :)Quote:
Originally Posted by Depression Moon
Why do they have to be mutually exclusive :confused:Quote:
Originally Posted by Depression MoonLol. People can't be passionate in what they do?Quote:
Originally Posted by DMKA
I don't think DM implied that they were.
Investors may only care about the bottom line, but I don't think the individuals that actually create these games do so primarily for profits. I doubt the original Final Fantasy was intended to make Square a boat load of money. I also doubt the innovations that the series brought in future installments were put in because 'it would sell more copies'. I think the majority of developers make games because they love to do it and they take pride in their product by making it something they actually want the world to experience.
I think FFXIII-2 was made for two reasons. 1) SE is struggling from a fiscal standpoint and a sequel is much cheaper to produce than a start from scratch project, will sell millions (FFXIII lovers will buy it, FFXIII haters may buy it to see if it is better), and is therefore a much safer and more profitable option than making something new. 2) I really think Kitase thinks FFXIII was a brilliant game. I don't think he understands why people didn't like it. He thinks the reasons why people didn't like it are very specific and simplistic. Because he wants everyone to realize how great the FFXIII world/battle system/characters/etc. are, he's made a sequel that addresses all of our 'minor' concerns. To him the sequel will validate the entirety of FFXIII.
Or maybe they did this on purpose. Produce a main FF title with obvious flaws so that you can justify a sequel that 'corrects' these flaws. Then you can make millions on two games instead of one! SE has found the video game equivalent of releasing the final Harry Potter/Twilight movie in two parts.
Developers are (or can be) passionate, executives aren't.Quote:
Originally Posted by Depression MoonLol. People can't be passionate in what they do?Quote:
Originally Posted by DMKA
Whenever a company says they made changes based on 'listening to the fans' they are either lying or inept. Anyone who has spent any time on the internet knows that giving everyone what they are asking for leads to a terrible final product. You have to give people what they want, not what they think they want. Exceedingly few people can identify and articulate what they actually want in a game, all they gets through are knee jerk reaction. Getting to the core of it is what good developers do.
And I don't think I have to elaborate on the lying part...
Was this the impression you got when you met him???Quote:
Originally Posted by Del Murder
Deep.Quote:
Originally Posted by VeloZer0
Our meeting was very scripted. All the questions were submitted in advance. Each selected question was then read to us in English by the translator and then read to him in Japanese. He then responded in Japanese, which was then translated to English. No question that criticized FFXIII in any way was asked, and most of the questions selected were either complete fluff or concentrated on the production side of the game (and about half came from one website, since there were about 10 websites represented I'm guessing the majority of us asked in-depth or critical questions that SE didn't want Kitase to answer or possibly even hear). I couldn't really read much into it for those reasons, but I did get the hint the content that he considers FFXIII-2 to be an 'improvement' of the previously great FFXIII rather than a 'fixing' of the previously flawed FFXIII.Quote:
Originally Posted by Bolivar
There's a reason why we didn't put up a feature on the Q&A. I'll see if I can get the transcript of it from one of the other sites because I forgot to bring a recording device.
The owner of a company has more power than the execs he or she hires. If he/she doesn't like one of the decisions or handlings of the exec then he/she has the power to fire that person.Quote:
Originally Posted by MirageDevelopers are (or can be) passionate, executives aren't.Quote:
Originally Posted by Depression MoonLol. People can't be passionate in what they do?Quote:
Originally Posted by DMKA
The owner is an executive, basically. The board are the ones who make the biggest decisions, and the board demand profit above anything.Quote:
Originally Posted by Depression MoonThe owner of a company has more power than the execs he or she hires. If he/she doesn't like one of the decisions or handlings of the exec then he/she has the power to fire that person.Quote:
Originally Posted by MirageDevelopers are (or can be) passionate, executives aren't.Quote:
Originally Posted by Depression MoonLol. People can't be passionate in what they do?Quote:
Originally Posted by DMKA
Of course, this thread is basically just one big moanfest about how a game is being made that they don't care about - at least, for the majority of people posting in it. There are dozens of games being made out there that I don't care about and that I don't want. I don't go posting in those threads saying "I don't care about this game, they shouldn't be making it." I really don't understand the logic on that end.
Personally, I'm glad they're making FFXIII-2. And before anyone criticises me of being a major SE fanboy who thinks they can do no wrong, that is incorrect. I disliked FFX on many levels, FFXII took me multiple attempts to actually finish because it was too large, I never completed FFXI, I never played FFIX until recently, and I think FFII was rubbish and only finished it because I want to say I have finished all the numbered single player FF's there are. I have no interest in playing FFX-2, although maybe that will change someday in the distant future when it's on sale for £2.99 or so on the PSN. :p So with that out of the way, back to FFXIII-2. So they stated why they're making another. Who cares? They said that "The hardcore Final Fantasy fans of the PlayStation Era, 1995 – 2006 will know that the games people enjoyed most were numbers 7 through 10" - this is true, the hardcore fans of the PlayStation Era will think that. Of course they will! And everyone knows that the largest number of FF fans think FFVII is the best, and that FFX is highly rated by a massive number of idiots (;)) out there. These are the games that SE is being held to when it comes to making new games. Nobody is expecting them to come out with the next game being heavily inspired by FFII or FFIII, because by modern standards and by comparison to VII etc. they have little to nothing to improve on any modern games.
User ratings (not game review critics like IGN etc!) on metacritic show that 62 people had negative views of FFXIII and 114 had positive views (and reader rating on IGN is 8.6 from over 3000 users). That's still showing that more people thoguht positively about FFXIII than negative. It's not like FFXIV where the numbers are 46/103 (positive/negative) - those are rubbish. They're reinventing that game.
SE is not "milking the game for all it's worth". That's reserved for FFX and FFVII - the games that are the most popular in the series. FFVII has been given, what, four sequels? Is this because the game was so poor that they needed to come up with more story and whatnot? No. We all know why. It's because they wanted to make more money and because the original game was loved. For FFX, the same. This is one occurance where they are actually showing more "love" for their game than they are money-gathering. They want people to love the game, they want people to get what they wanted out of ot the original. And, perhaps most importantly, unlike FFVII etc, they are actually bening sensible because the game always showed potential for a sequel. They aren't just going "Oh, we'll have some stupid thing happen to force a sequel!". I always wanted to see what would happen after the Cocoon inhabitants arrived on the very dangerous world of Gran Pulse.
I mean, come on, guys. There's being cynical because something suspicious is going on, and there's being cynical because you're just a big moany cynic.
XIII and XIV were poorly received compared to previous Final Fantasy games, and in XIV's case, compared to regular games. They could just go "Oh well, that was a blip, let's just pretend it didn't happen and start working on the VII remake." That, for me, would be 'not caring about your game, and just caring about the money.' And if this were a new series, I fully believe that they wouldn't care and they'd just leave it. But this is the integrity of the Final Fantasy series, and perhaps unlike other developers, they will not let it just go to the crapper. In the case of Final Fantasy XIV, they are not going to sit by and let it shut down. They are re-inventing the game from pretty much nothing, while still keeping all users up and running and keeping their data etc. for the new game. This is not something I expect to be cheap for them. This is about making sure that every number of the Final Fantasy series is looked at positively in the long run.
Now, they can't re-invent FFXIII that way. And while more people liked it than hated it, going by the user ratings out there, they are still hurt by the number of poeople (compared to normal) that slated aspectes of the game and they are doing what they can to address those concerns, please those people and leave everyone happy. They are trying to keep their fans, they are trying to show that every game can be looked at fondly. They are doing what they can to keep Final Fantasy as a brand that leads in RPGs and is loved by RPG lovers. In some cases, they are taking a big hit on the money area.
Now, yeah, they had to justify their game. They had to explain that they wanted to give the fans a game they would enjoy more than they enjoyed the previous one. Did they need to explain why they are re-releasing FFX on the PS3? Did they have to explain why they are making various spin-off games or VII and X, the most popular games in the modern series? No. They didn't because they couldn't just say "It's for the money." Did they explain why they are re-inventing FFXIV? Yes. They did have to, because they accepted they got it wrong and they want to make that right. Did they explain why they are releasing a sequel to FFXIII? Yes. Because they accepted that a lot of people weren't happy with the original and they wanted to address that.
If you want to find a company that is milking their games for money, look at SE releasing FFX HD and coming up with sequels to games that didn't need any. If you want to find a company that cares about the integrity of it's games, look at FFXIII-2 where they are trying to listen to fans and release the game that the fans wanted. Look at FFXIV where they apologise with humility and say they will spend millions trying to make the game that the people will love.
Do they care about money? Of course. They'll do what it takes to get that money. But they are right now showing the best way to get that money is by keeping fans happy, and that means doing everything they can to make games the people will enjoy. I, for one, give them credit for that. FFVII is my favourite game of all time but if they release that again then I will know they are trying to make money. And that the game will be sub-par because it won't translate well to high def graphics (Don Corneo scenes = made for cartoon style, not realism). While they apologise and say that they are going to make games that will improve on the overall feling towards a badly received game? That's the time they're showing they care (a little) less about the money and more about the integrity of the game.
...BoB wrote, as he sat in his tent he had set up outside his local gaming store, waiting eagerly for January 31.
Like a store would open early for FFXIII-2! Pre-orders get delivered before opening hours.
Fine, I'll bite BoB. I was going to try to finish my top ten SE games answer for my own thread, but this caught my interest and I find it harder to write gushing and positive descriptions.
Ultimately, your whole post can be summed up as "Hey, I liked FFXIII! Stop picking on it!" but I'll humor you.
First off, FFX-2 itself has a lot in common with XIII-2. Both games were sequels to games that didn't really need sequels, that fans weren't clamoring for a sequel, and were simply made because the development team (both projects directed by Motomu Toriyama, the man has a bad case of sequel-itis) wanted to make one. Both sequels had their entire game design determined by criticism from the original games, which is amusingly some of the same complaints. X-2 gained the faster ATB system as a direct response from complaints about CTB being too slow, and the mission based story set-up is a response from the largest complaint being the linearity of the world and story. So how can FFX-2 be a "milk the franchise" but XIII-2 isn't when they are created for similar reasons? Hell, your acknowledgement that XIII-2 was created to appease the negative backlash of the game itself is admittance that the original was a flawed experience.
The other issue here is that I don't see XIII-2 as SE being a good way for SE to apologize for a bad game that was hindered by terrible management. No one really wanted a sequel except for a small fringe group and said group is already bitching cause the game is focusing on a mostly new cast of characters, so its not like a real continuation for some people. I would have preferred if SE has scrapped XIII-2 and spent their resources perfecting Versus XIII (the game most FF fans are actually interested in) and Type-0. Type-0 itself has a better example of SE actually caring, because they actually delayed the game after receiving feedback from the demo, and spent more time fixing complaints and polishing it before releasing it for retail. Whereas both FFXIII was released despite receiving the negative feedback late in development, and FFXIV was released on time despite the Beta testers telling them it would not be a good idea.
XIII-2 is not SE saying they care and want to make amends, it's them admitting they no longer know what they are doing, and are asking the fans to tell them what they want so they can continue making a profit. XIV didn't tarnish the franchise, a decade of delays, a gross overuse of brand name for spin-offs, sequels no one asked for, and a mass exodus of the talent that made the franchise )and company) popular in the 90s is what has been chinking away at the "holiness of the Square name" one bit at a time. The fact the decade accumulated into an FF title that was more movie than game, with a bizarre plot told better through the datalogs, and an MMO title that made other MMO Beta's look like full games is simply just the accumulation of problems within the studio. The fact these negative backlash is so loud is not because of a few vocal minority as you want to make yourself believe, it is an actual concern within the fanbase as a whole about whether Squenix knows what they are doing with a franchise we all grew up with. Some people may have enjoyed FFXIII but from what I've read and seen, their is a large consensus with the fanbase that XIII was underwhelming when compared to the franchises' legacy.
Had XIII simply had some wanky design problems (like FFII and VIII) I can see going back to address them, in another game, but XIII made some design decisions that had fans wondering what SE was thinking from day 1 of their announcements, and from what Kitase has admitted about the troubled development the game went through and its sheer lack of focus up until the release of the demo a year before the games release, then chances are most of these choices were made due to screwing around for so long as opposed to actually making it as a conscious choice. When fans have to wonder why you removed towns and exploration, from a genre that has always been about exploring new worlds and seeing new places, you have to wonder. If they had admitted it was a bad move, it would have been one thing, but to turn around and blame the fans for not understanding the "artistic direction" is just childish and a poor way to save face. XIII-2 is simply SE admitting they were wrong without out right saying it.
Does this mean XIII-2 is going to be terrible? No, I actually expect it to play much better and will most likely eclipse the original because it does so many things right, but these guys have been working on this series for over a decade for some members, they really should know what they are doing, not asking fans what they should do. It's one thing for XIV, its gaming medium allows for that kind of relationship between developer and player, but XIII? Why do I have to sit down and explain to them about great story, characters, customization systems, gameplay, dungeon design, and world design to the people belonging to the company that taught me all this stuff to begin with? It's just...pathetic...
I really want XIII-2 to be a return to form for Squeenix (I'd rather they didn't bother with it at all though. If they're going to make a dramatic return to form, at least do it with XV), but the last ten years of increasingly mediocre to poor offerings has sucked away any faith I had in that occuring. Final Fantasy devotees need to watch that they don't take a seat alongside Sonic fans in the gutter, clutching forties in brown bags and crying "JUST HOLD ON YOU GUYS...THE GLORY DAYS...THEY'RE.. *hic* THEY'RE COMING BACK".
WK: Ultimately, your whole post can be summed up as "Hey, I hated FFXIII! Stop saying this isn't a money grabber!" but I'll humour you. ;) I think in the case of you and I discussing FFXIII and so forth, we can always agree to disagree, personally, but what the hell. :D
I wasn't aware of FFX being criticised to any major level. It sold massively well, probably better than the previous two games, and has a very large following to this day. You can often tell how popular an FF is based on how many people name themselves after the characters, and I assure you, there were a lot of Tidus, Auron, Yuna, Rikku etc. characters floating about the moment FFX hit the retail stores. But yeah, FFX was widely loved (not including myself or yourself, but two people with taste changes little when you look at the average user ratings out on the internet). FFX-2 was released because FFX sold so incredibly well. VII? Also sold really well. Not a shocker that the two best-selling FF games of the 3D generation (I think?) are the ones with sequels - well, before FFXIII-2 comes along.
You say that Final Fantasy XIII didn't need a sequel, and while it didn't need one (no game ever does, to be honest, need a sequel) a large number of people at the time of finishing FFXIII at EoFF were discussing how much potential there was for a sequel. The masses caught on to the idea immediately and it was always looking like heading in that direction. The fans weren't clamouring for a sequel but a large number of those that finished and enjoyed the game were certainly interested before any kind of mention was made from SE, and that is enough for them to take note.
People complained about FFX's battle system? That's weird - most people say it's one of the best, including myself. I agree that it was linear and that was my primary complaint outside of the characters, but the sales and ratings still said enough. Fans enjoyed FFX in general and it was a success on all levels. There was little room for a sequel, let alone need. Very different to FFXIII, where we were discussing the huge opening for a sequel from the moment they finished.
To be fair, I'm not saying it's the best way to apologise and I'm not saying it's an apology, either. I'm saying that it's them doing their best to improve upon the XIII 'franchise', to regain the integrity of that XIII number. Some people say "They should have just gone straight to XV" but this would be a mistake. If they cock up XIII-2, they're relatively safe from harm, to be honest. It's just a spinoff game. If they cock up XV, that's three in a row and that's what is often referred to in this world as A Very Bad Thing.Quote:
The other issue here is that I don't see XIII-2 as SE being a good way for SE to apologize for a bad game that was hindered by terrible management.
On some level, yes, you're right. And they should listen to fans. They should try to improve their game. They should do everything they can to continue to make a profit. But I think they're going about it the right way, personally. These are things they should do and are doing. It's about time, really. And I'm happy for that. Could they do this by taking what they have learned and going straight to XV? No, I think that would be a bad idea. But I still believe they are doing this because they care. Maybe not about you and me, but about the integrity of Final Fantasy. Many games flop, it doesn't mean it's the end of the world for everyone out there. They could drop Final Fantasy altogether and still find a new way to sell a lot of games. But instead, they are doing all they can to appease the fans and get Final Fantasy XIII a sequel that gives the series a bit more integrity. They're doing it right. For the money? Pah.Quote:
XIII-2 is not SE saying they care and want to make amends, it's them admitting they no longer know what they are doing, and are asking the fans to tell them what they want so they can continue making a profit.
I do agree with a lot of this, butQuote:
a decade of delays, a gross overuse of brand name for spin-offs, sequels no one asked for, and a mass exodus of the talent that made the franchise )and company) popular in the 90s is what has been chinking away at the "holiness of the Square name" one bit at a time.
to say this immediately beforehand is incorrect. Yes, it did. It's stupid to say otherwise. I'm not saying it was all FFXIV, but it certainly has played a bloody big part of it and if you can't see that you're very close-minded. And this is coming from someone who enjoys playing FFXIV more than most. I still don't play it often anymore and won't subscribe from the get-go.Quote:
XIV didn't tarnish the franchise
I agree with that. Although I think the same of FFX and FFXII, so I don't see how FFXIII are suddenly so much worse, but that's personal opinion.Quote:
Some people may have enjoyed FFXIII but from what I've read and seen, their is a large consensus with the fanbase that XIII was underwhelming when compared to the franchises' legacy.
For me, design problems is the last reason to make another game - another game should only be made if there is room for it, and in VIII's case there was none. II? I mean... what was there to begin with? xDQuote:
Had XIII simply had some wanky design problems (like FFII and VIII) I can see going back to address them, in another game
I don't know if an apology is in order, personally. I don't think one was in order for XIII. It wasn't everyone's cup of tea, that we all know, but should they really have to apologise for making the game they wanted to make and that they were happy with? I mean, how many games have not done well over the years. Does every other developer have to come out and make a formal apology every time people don't like it? That's stupid. Not every game will suit every fan. I'm certain that making the game you see as perfect will be a game that someone else does not. Likewise for me. It's normal. They can admit that they didn't think people would view things in certain ways, but why apologise? It's not like XIV where they asked people to pay for a game that wasn't ready in any way whatsoever. XIII was a finished game, but people didn't like it as much as they liked their favourite FF from whenever. Is that so bad? Did they apologise for re-releasing FFII? "Still a tit game, here you go!" :p What about FFX HD? It's the same as before, but with HD graphics. They wouldn't do this if it was a bad game, by the way. No, of course they didn't apologise and I don't think they should have to. Just because you didn't like it, doesn't mean they have to apologise. You know this, I'm sure you do.Quote:
but XIII made some design decisions that had fans wondering what SE was thinking from day 1 of their announcements, and from what Kitase has admitted about the troubled development the game went through and its sheer lack of focus up until the release of the demo a year before the games release, then chances are most of these choices were made due to screwing around for so long as opposed to actually making it as a conscious choice. When fans have to wonder why you removed towns and exploration, from a genre that has always been about exploring new worlds and seeing new places, you have to wonder. If they had admitted it was a bad move, it would have been one thing, but to turn around and blame the fans for not understanding the "artistic direction" is just childish and a poor way to save face. XIII-2 is simply SE admitting they were wrong without out right saying it.
Ironically, talking with the fans more about what they want is something that people have been calling for SE to do for years on years now, surely including yourself. Not talking to fans is just how FFXIV and FFXIII came about. You want them to stop asking fans what they want now that they've finally started? Do you know the saying "Damned if you do, damned if you don't"? >=PQuote:
these guys have been working on this series for over a decade for some members, they really should know what they are doing, not asking fans what they should do.
I could debate with you forever, WK, I think you do it so well - no bitching, no flaming, no anger... it's actually almost fun. [img]http://home.eyesonff.com/images/smilies/heart.gif[/img] I do see your viewpoint and I can understand how you can reach it, but I hope you can see where I'm coming from, too.
You know, BoB, your second to last post about not coming into threads to talk about how much you don't like games and say they should be making something else was a little inspiring. We could all use a little more of that spirit, myself included.
I don't think XIII was the nail in the coffin, hailing the final confirmation of utter incompetence at Square and a loss of know-how to make video games at all anymore. Like Del said in his impressions thread, I think Kitase and crew were all very passionate about XIII and believed it to be a very great game. Most critics, but more importantly fans as well received it positively. I think if we looked at the threads today, there's a good range of people who loved it and others like me who enjoyed it; I wouldn't say if we're the majority, but the point is there is a vocal part of the fanbase and minor reservations from outlets that called the game out for its faults.
So I think the team and Square (certainly financially) are very happy with XIII, but now that the technical stuff is done, they want to get back to a brisk release pace, making awesome games, bringing that enthusiastic fanbase back into the fold, and reclaiming their top spot in the development community.
I may not be camped out with BoB waiting for January 31, but I am happy they're making FFXIII-2.
;):pQuote:
Originally Posted by Loony BoB
There's also FFIV that got The After Years when the team developing the DS remake of IV decided they wanted to do a sequel. FFV got that anime OVA back in the 90s that... is better left unspoken. Even FFXII got a quick cash in sequel with Revnant Wings which was originally an independent IP being created by Motomu Toriyama before Squenix Executives had it turned into an FFXII spin-off during production.Quote:
I wasn't aware of FFX being criticised to any major level. It sold massively well, probably better than the previous two games, and has a very large following to this day. You can often tell how popular an FF is based on how many people name themselves after the characters, and I assure you, there were a lot of Tidus, Auron, Yuna, Rikku etc. characters floating about the moment FFX hit the retail stores. But yeah, FFX was widely loved (not including myself or yourself, but two people with taste changes little when you look at the average user ratings out on the internet). FFX-2 was released because FFX sold so incredibly well. VII? Also sold really well. Not a shocker that the two best-selling FF games of the 3D generation (I think?) are the ones with sequels - well, before FFXIII-2 comes along.
As for FFX's criticism, it was there, perhaps not in the scores (kind of like FFXIII), but if you read the reviews you'll notice people mention the games linearity and how CTB is slow compared to old school ATB, but most people overlooked it as major faults. If you read any review from 2002-2003 concerning FFX-2, Kitase and Toriyama will mention that X-2's gameplay designs are direct results from fan criticism.
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You say that Final Fantasy XIII didn't need a sequel, and while it didn't need one (no game ever does, to be honest, need a sequel) a large number of people at the time of finishing FFXIII at EoFF were discussing how much potential there was for a sequel. The masses caught on to the idea immediately and it was always looking like heading in that direction. The fans weren't clamouring for a sequel but a large number of those that finished and enjoyed the game were certainly interested before any kind of mention was made from SE, and that is enough for them to take note.
Except I would argue its no different from any other FF game in that regard, its just that in the past, getting a direct sequel to an FF game was mostly implausible to fans. Still, I remember people wanting sequels to VII and VIII, and even as far back as FFIV and VI for the SNES. Even FFX started getting murmurs of a sequel due to the games ambiguous final cutscene where you see Tidus swimming near Besaid. It was enough for the design team to create the short "Eternal Calm" video for the International Version which did actually swirl the Japanese fanbase into a wild fervor about a sequel being made for FFX, and eventually led to FFX-2 being green-lighted.
Going from ATB back to a modified turn base could do that, but it wasn't a big deal though I'm sure there were a vocal group of traditionalist that screamed bloody murder.Quote:
People complained about FFX's battle system? That's weird - most people say it's one of the best, including myself. I agree that it was linear and that was my primary complaint outside of the characters, but the sales and ratings still said enough. Fans enjoyed FFX in general and it was a success on all levels. There was little room for a sequel, let alone need. Very different to FFXIII, where we were discussing the huge opening for a sequel from the moment they finished.
I disagree about XIII having potential for a sequel or it being unique in that regard, I mean FFX itself left us with question of what was going to happen to Spira in the post-Sin/post-Yu Yevon world, how is that different from XIII and the fate of Cocoon? Hell most of the story elements brought up so far in the XIII-2 trailers deal with stuff that wasn't even a factor in the original like time travel, Etro, and Lightning apparently disappearing 15 seconds later in the original games mostly happy ending. What does any of this have to do with a fal'Cie conspiracy and a group of people who got screwed by fate and then magically succeeded from a real Deus ex Machina? What was really left to address that was different from FFX, VII, IV, XII or V? This sequel is no more needed than FFIV's sequel or FFVII's sequel.
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To be fair, I'm not saying it's the best way to apologize and I'm not saying it's an apology, either. I'm saying that it's them doing their best to improve upon the XIII 'franchise', to regain the integrity of that XIII number. Some people say "They should have just gone straight to XV" but this would be a mistake. If they cock up XIII-2, they're relatively safe from harm, to be honest. It's just a spinoff game. If they cock up XV, that's three in a row and that's what is often referred to in this world as A Very Bad Thing.Quote:
The other issue here is that I don't see XIII-2 as SE being a good way for SE to apologize for a bad game that was hindered by terrible management.
I simply feel they can better use their resources to improve the XIII franchise (that no one asked for) by making sure the rest of the FNC is better and hell, maybe even cut down on Versus XIII's production time so we could see it before the end of this console cycle. There is no reason why these resources had to be wasted on a product with limited interest. The original didn't go over well in terms of fulfilling fan expectations, so that pretty much means this game is going to have to shoulder some heavy baggage that is going to limit the return on this investment. SE would have been better off just pooling the resources to help Versus XIII possibly see a Japanese release in 2012, you know, the part of the FNC fans have actually been interested in since that first trailer rolled out back in 2006... They could make sure games that fans already know are in the works are going to be the best games ever and restore confidence in the brand, instead their going in for a round two because damn it all, Toriyama wants you to love his creation, and he won't take "no" for an answer.
Oh come now BoB... you know this is for the money, come on, search your feelings, you know it to be true... :vader:Quote:
On some level, yes, you're right. And they should listen to fans. They should try to improve their game. They should do everything they can to continue to make a profit. But I think they're going about it the right way, personally. These are things they should do and are doing. It's about time, really. And I'm happy for that. Could they do this by taking what they have learned and going straight to XV? No, I think that would be a bad idea. But I still believe they are doing this because they care. Maybe not about you and me, but about the integrity of Final Fantasy. Many games flop, it doesn't mean it's the end of the world for everyone out there. They could drop Final Fantasy altogether and still find a new way to sell a lot of games. But instead, they are doing all they can to appease the fans and get Final Fantasy XIII a sequel that gives the series a bit more integrity. They're doing it right. For the money? Pah.
Seriously, though, while I agree that going to FFXV is not a wise move, I don't think making a sequel to a game that is very decisive to the fanbase is a great way of doing this either. As I said, we could be putting the XIII staff to work on finishing Versus XIII instead, not making sequels to kill time between entries people are actually interested in get released. This game is a quick profit, they have the world and engine and everything, they could poop out sequels every year if they wanted to...
While I appreciate the fact they are listening to fans to make this game better than its predecessor, I find it to be a "too little, too late" and trying to sell me the game they should have made in the first place is their lost. I mean this entire thread was started because Kitase actually had to explain why this game is being made, which tells me that this is not a game fans really wanted in the first place, and that XIII has more baggage than the XIII lovers are willing to admit. While I share SE's optimistic expectations for XIII-2, I can also see the game not doing so well due to the relations with XIII and the fanbase getting tired of direct sequels.
Let me correct myself by saying I meant to say that FFXIV didn't do it alone, but while we're on the subject, I actually don't feel that XIV's failure has more impact as the other things I mentioned, simply because a lot of the fanbase doesn't care about the MMO entries. For many fans, XI and XIV don't exist, and I would go so far as to say that XIV let many fans down the moment it was revealed to be an MMO. Having a large part of the fanbase never have to experience the nightmare of XIV has probably not weaken their feelings about SE as much as the poor souls who did hate XII-XIV.Quote:
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XIV didn't tarnish the franchise
to say this immediately beforehand is incorrect. Yes, it did. It's stupid to say otherwise. I'm not saying it was all FFXIV, but it certainly has played a bloody big part of it and if you can't see that you're very close-minded. And this is coming from someone who enjoys playing FFXIV more than most. I still don't play it often anymore and won't subscribe from the get-go.
I would agree being a disaster after the mediocre XIII was definetly bad for SE's image but I feel XIV was more of a PR disaster with critics and media types than it was to the whole of the fanbase, whom it was simply a financial disaster. Besides, since I don't really consider SE an MMO company, I don't really have much expectations for their MMOS, its not like XI doesn't have its fair share of problems with its interface, nearly impossible super bosses, constant "balance through nerfing every exploitation players find", and the general non-newb friendly mechanics has exactly made XI exceptional even in the MMO community. Half it's design problems are forgiven by fans due to the game being one of the few surviving pre-WoW MMOs and because SE has doen a pretty good job with user feedback to make it more palpable. While its strong community and longevity shows that XI is not by any means terrible and actually quite good, I feel its design issues also showcase that SE is not exactly a premier MMO developer, so screwing one up is not as bad as screwing up a console RPG would be.
Despite all this, XIV is salvageable. It may have lost its chance to surpass its predecessor or change the world of MMOs, but the PC style design expectations means fans will just wait for more patches to make it better, and MMOs are pretty consistent money makers once they get going. It may now take SE another five to ten years to make XIV turn a profit but it has more of a chance than other games in the franchise.
Except FFX actually has a huge fanbase, its often surpassing FFVII in Japan as the best FF in the series, and in the US and PAL, it's been a pretty consistent number 2. FFXII itself is actually one of the most critically acclaimed entries in the franchise, and while it was also not exactly hailed the same by the fanbase, its dissenters are nowhere near the scale XIII's have been.Quote:
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Some people may have enjoyed FFXIII but from what I've read and seen, their is a large consensus with the fanbase that XIII was underwhelming when compared to the franchises' legacy.
I agree with that. Although I think the same of FFX and FFXII, so I don't see how FFXIII are suddenly so much worse, but that's personal opinion.
While I agree that making another game from an entry to address design issues is not the way to go, that's what I feel XIII-2 is doing because there is nothing really left to say about the original story that is not really important to the overall narrative. Chances are pretty high that any legitimate questions left unanswered from XIII will promptly be ignored or was already explained in the original by the Datalog or Analects, if the rest of SE's sequel track record is anything to go by. The biggest draw of XIII-2 is that "hey, we fixed it by inputting everything you told us to" not the expansion of a narrative that doesn't look like its really continuing where the previous cast left off, but rather starting over with a brand new cast and mostly new story and just intertwining the previous cast in supporting character hijinks.Quote:
For me, design problems is the last reason to make another game - another game should only be made if there is room for it, and in VIII's case there was none. II? I mean... what was there to begin with? xDQuote:
Had XIII simply had some wanky design problems (like FFII and VIII) I can see going back to address them, in another game
Get ready, cause I am about to blow your freaking mind... I actually like most of the series, FFX and XIII are the only entries I have issues with. I don't pretend the franchise is without its faults but I actually felt that even entries like FFII and VIII have enough positives to outweigh the negatives, and despite what modern gamers fans think, FFII was actually a success in Japan and actually has a strong fanbase there ( Uboarrrr anyone?) so SE certainly doesn't need to apologize for FFII. It's not really FFII's fault that it's design is deeply imbedded in a time frame that called for different standards on what was considered fun, and that those standards have changed over the past two decades since it's release. No one really blames Pac-Man for being designed as a simple arcade title with only a hi-score to show off your skill and cry that its aged poorly because you are doing the same repetitive thing over and over again and the title lacks variety even when its ported and remade.Quote:
I don't know if an apology is in order, personally. I don't think one was in order for XIII. It wasn't everyone's cup of tea, that we all know, but should they really have to apologise for making the game they wanted to make and that they were happy with? I mean, how many games have not done well over the years. Does every other developer have to come out and make a formal apology every time people don't like it? That's stupid. Not every game will suit every fan. I'm certain that making the game you see as perfect will be a game that someone else does not. Likewise for me. It's normal. They can admit that they didn't think people would view things in certain ways, but why apologise? It's not like XIV where they asked people to pay for a game that wasn't ready in any way whatsoever. XIII was a finished game, but people didn't like it as much as they liked their favourite FF from whenever. Is that so bad? Did they apologise for re-releasing FFII? "Still a tit game, here you go!" What about FFX HD? It's the same as before, but with HD graphics. They wouldn't do this if it was a bad game, by the way. No, of course they didn't apologise and I don't think they should have to. Just because you didn't like it, doesn't mean they have to apologise. You know this, I'm sure you do.
Despite that, I don't feel Squenix needs to apologize for XIII but I feel the major overhaul gameplay and numerous succession to fan demands can be taken as an indirect apology for the original games poor design. I also don't really feel XIII's design was something the team consciously made, Kitase's interviews concerning the troubled development and the fact the games actual design and the teams vision for the game wasn't finalized until a year before it's release thanks to having to make the demo tells me that many of XIII's design decisions were more necessity than conscious experimentation. You have part of the staff talking about cut content and Kitase and Toriyama pretty much admitting that for most of the development of the game, the overall team broke up into smaller groups and was just generating content without direction for four to five years. The audacity of the development team to release a product that was pretty much thrown together at the last minute kind of confirmed a sneaking suspicion that SE really believes that brand name can sell a title alone and quality products are not as much of a factor. Even people who love FFXIII can't really justify several of the game's design problems and will usually agree with haters like myself that the game could be improved on many levels.
I honestly feel its because of XIII's lukewarm feeling from fans and the terrible receptions of FFXIV that SE has finally been caught making this suspicion true. That's why SE has changed their policy somewhat and are now listening to fans...
Easiest solution to a "damn if you do, damn if you don't" situation is to not find yourself in one to begin with. My point about listening to fans is simply to look at it as the possibility that SE is out of touch with the fanbase and that the last decade of departures and policy changes have weakened and tarnished the franchise. I mean ten years ago, Squaresoft was telling RPG fans what they wanted and had an uncanny knack for usually being right. Now, Squenix has fallen behind and is struggling to generate balanced and fun titles, their newest releases and up-coming high profile titles major claims to fame being that they actually implemented things that fans have wanted back into the games for years. They've moved too much into the business side of things, unapologetically. I mean Wada has been talking for years about moving the company towards social gaming and cell phone titles while also telling the development team to make their games more "Western" because that's what's trending now in the game market.Quote:
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these guys have been working on this series for over a decade for some members, they really should know what they are doing, not asking fans what they should do.
Ironically, talking with the fans more about what they want is something that people have been calling for SE to do for years on years now, surely including yourself. Not talking to fans is just how FFXIV and FFXIII came about. You want them to stop asking fans what they want now that they've finally started? Do you know the saying "Damned if you do, damned if you don't"? >=P
While Square and FF have always been a business, it was a business controlled by artist. Part of the reason I feel Mistwalker has only done so-so in the games market is largely due to Sakeguchi being a terrible businessman and his insistence of giving the proverbial middle finger to Sony but no one really denies the companies ability to make wonderful games, they are just limited by the bullheaded business decisions of the companies founder. Yet at Squenix, I don't feel the creativity is there anymore, and what's left is being stamped out by the business side. Granted, today's console designs mean that triple A titles have to succeed and companies are so concerned about taking a hit, they have to bring in test groups and executive meddling to "fix" products. I feel this is Japan's problem, and why so many of the creative designers have been leaving their companies and trying to create new ones, the major companies are now more concerned about the bottom line, and no one is willing to make concessions to release creative games that may lack the high budgets expected. I mean close to half of XIII's design team left the company and SE no longer has an in-house music department to develop music for their games, simply out-sourcing. Hell most of the writing of SE games are out-sourced as well to Nojima, Kato, and Matsuno. SE has seen the departure of a large majority of the people who were running things back in Square's "Golden Age" and I feel the Compilation and steady stream of remakes is simply SE trying to stay relevant. Even FFXHD, I'll agree is SE simply trying to make quick money due to the financial disaster of XIV.
I don't necessarily feel it's a bad business move to fully utilize feedback, but I do question if SE has seen the far sighted consequences of trying to appeal to a largley fractured fanbase that can't even agree what constitutes good writing and game design. I mean, just taking XII and XIII fans, how are you going to rectify that into a game design that will make both sides happy? This isn't like AC, Madden, FIFA, MGS, and CoD where we've been refining elements for a years. I mean the series makes drastic leaps and what's considered "great innovation" in one game is the "downfall of the franchise" to other fans. Its the biggest concern I have with SE following all feedback, especially since the fact people love FFXIII and think its a great game, tells me that my fellow fans can't be trusted to give meaningful feedback, and I am pretty sure the feeling is mutual on the other side of the pond concerning some of my likes.
Well now that my semester is over, I may be able to debate with you for extended periods of time. I understand where you are coming from and I can even agree that my view sometimes comes off a bit too "black and white" but I hope you can understand how I see this positive is covering up an underlying negative.Quote:
I could debate with you forever, WK, I think you do it so well - no bitching, no flaming, no anger... it's actually almost fun. [img]http://home.eyesonff.com/images/smilies/heart.gif[/img] I do see your viewpoint and I can understand how you can reach it, but I hope you can see where I'm coming from, too.