Your thoughts on Caius as an FF Villain?

I will start this thread by saying that I have completed FFXIII-2, and that I am basing my opinions here on that. I intended this post mostly for discussion by people who have beaten or at least played a good chunk of the game. I won't give away any plot spoilers, but if you think that knowing the general personality traits and attitudes of a character are spoilers, then don't read forward! Also, I discuss some plot spoilers of Final Fantasy 8. So if you haven't played it and want to, get with the times and do it, and don't read ahead! Kapeesh?

Alright, so, if you're still with me, on to my thoughts about Caius.

Caius was my favorite Final Fantasy villain since Seifer and Edea in Final Fantasy 8.

Why? Well, first off he shares a very big common trait with those two. He is complex and not a stereotypical antagonist. He is driven by personal interests just like the protagonists, not by some hokey, cliche desire to control or destroy humanity. I think the best villains in stories are the ones you can relate too, ones that aren't completely batpoop crazy but willing to be quite a jerk in order to cope with dire circumstances and achieve a goal. I really liked Caius in this regard. There were moments when I truly felt his pain and sympathized with his sadness. There were times I felt like his actions were justified. I really enjoy that kind of villain the most.

The reason Edea and Seifer were my former favorites is because they are not outright villains. They eventually side with and help the main characters fight in their respective title, and to me that shows depth of character. They were driven by rational motivations, not irrational urges like lust for power.

Anyway, Caius was by no means an admirable character overall, but as far as FF villains go, he was a lot more admirable than most of the others. It was nice to see the villain as a normal person dealing with abnormal amounts of stress, rather than the typical hellbent religious power figure or scheming madman we usually see in this series.

So I tip my hats to the writers of XIII-2 for giving us a really enjoyable villain. What are your thoughts on Caius? Particularly if you have already played a good portion of the game...

He was a bit too theatrical for me to be wholly approving, but it's definitely a step up from XII (well, and XIII, come to that). If I say any more, I'll end up commenting the whole story, so I'll just STFU on that. I'm happy the writers made an effort, messed up as the premise is.

But... Unless I had an unusually funny tea today, wasn't Edea first possessed (i.e. not in control of her actions) before joining BRIEFLY? And I'm fairly sure Seifer never ever helped Squall & co, not even in Dollet...?

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Originally Posted by Silent Warrior

And I'm fairly sure Seifer never ever helped Squall & co, not even in Dollet...?

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That son of a chicken!

Caius is an intriguing villian due to his past and what he is. But for what he is trying to achieve in the game, I feel that he isn't properly motivated.

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Originally Posted by Silent Warrior

He was a bit too theatrical for me to be wholly approving, but it's definitely a step up from XII (well, and XIII, come to that). If I say any more, I'll end up commenting the whole story, so I'll just STFU on that. I'm happy the writers made an effort, messed up as the premise is.

But... Unless I had an unusually funny tea today, wasn't Edea first possessed (i.e. not in control of her actions) before joining BRIEFLY? And I'm fairly sure Seifer never ever helped Squall & co, not even in Dollet...?

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Actually, I agree. I should have mentioned this. The most annoying feature of his character to me is his voice acting and his choice of words. He does come across pretty melodramatic.

Also, my memory of FF8 must be a little fuzzy. It is on the top of my list of FF games to replay. I guess you're right about that, but in any case the reason I liked Edea and Seifer was that they both just seemed like normal people and not over-the-top power-hungry villain stereotypes. Sorry about that. I really do need to replay it. Haha.

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Originally Posted by Lamia

Caius is an intriguing villian due to his past and what he is. But for what he is trying to achieve in the game, I feel that he isn't properly motivated.

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Some plot spoilers in my response hereI don't think from an outside perspective his motivation is just, but if I step into his shoes, I think maybe he has a few screws loose from witnessing centuries of human suffering and death all around him. He's a little insane, but I can see how his pain could build over the years and his depression could lead him to want to sort of just end everything. Considering that he knows how the timeline is going to end pretty poorly for humanity anyway, that humanity will die out completely in Noel's time, and since he actually lived through to see that time and see the end of humanity, I can see why he is trying to destroy the timeline. For him he's trying to just bring an end to human suffering, which he's seen too much of in his life. There is the part of me that wants to slap him in the face and say "EAT SOME BIRTHDAY CAKE AND BE HAPPY, YA TOOL!"

One thing though that seems like a plot hole... if Yeul died in Noel's time, why did Caius leave to kill the goddess so she wouldn't have to reincarnate again? I was under the impression that Yeul was actually born from a person. If there are no people left to re-birth her, won't she just die finally like everyone else? Since Noel is the last of the Paddra (Seeress Tribe) there's no way she'd be reincarnated, unless maybe there really were some other people alive, and Noel hooked up and they gave birth to another Yeul, but as I understand it, it's more than likely that there were no other people alive as Noel's tribe slowly died off without contact to outside humans for years it seems.

Caius is certainly not well developed compared to many FF villains, but I just overall found him a little more relatable and less annoying than a lot of them, as well.

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Originally Posted by ShineTheLion

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Originally Posted by Lamia

Caius is an intriguing villian due to his past and what he is. But for what he is trying to achieve in the game, I feel that he isn't properly motivated.

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Some plot spoilers in my response hereI don't think from an outside perspective his motivation is just, but if I step into his shoes, I think maybe he has a few screws loose from witnessing centuries of human suffering and death all around him. He's a little insane, but I can see how his pain could build over the years and his depression could lead him to want to sort of just end everything. Considering that he knows how the timeline is going to end pretty poorly for humanity anyway, that humanity will die out completely in Noel's time, and since he actually lived through to see that time and see the end of humanity, I can see why he is trying to destroy the timeline. For him he's trying to just bring an end to human suffering, which he's seen too much of in his life. There is the part of me that wants to slap him in the face and say "EAT SOME BIRTHDAY CAKE AND BE HAPPY, YA TOOL!"

One thing though that seems like a plot hole... if Yeul died in Noel's time, why did Caius leave to kill the goddess so she wouldn't have to reincarnate again? I was under the impression that Yeul was actually born from a person. If there are no people left to re-birth her, won't she just die finally like everyone else? Since Noel is the last of the Paddra (Seeress Tribe) there's no way she'd be reincarnated, unless maybe there really were some other people alive, and Noel hooked up and they gave birth to another Yeul, but as I understand it, it's more than likely that there were no other people alive as Noel's tribe slowly died off without contact to outside humans for years it seems.

Caius is certainly not well developed compared to many FF villains, but I just overall found him a little more relatable and less annoying than a lot of them, as well.

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Ah, yes. When you put it that way it makes more sense for why Caius is the way he is. Although it makes Etro and her seeress/guardian system look foolish. Etro doesn't seem to be the smartest goddess around though considering the other problems she has also caused... :jess:

and yeah, that is a plot hole. One of a quite a few.

Nonetheless, I really like the characters of Yeul and Caius, I think they are some of the most interesting characters in the series.

I'm about 60% through the game by my estimation and so far I'm not that impressed with Caius. I appreciate that he is a different type of villain but so far he doesn't have much interaction with the characters and that gives him less of an impact on the story. I also feel that his motives are vague and misplaced. I'm sure I'll learn more by the end but so far it's just a lot of nonsense and when he shows up it feels more random than anything.

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Originally Posted by Del Murder

I'm about 60% through the game by my estimation and so far I'm not that impressed with Caius. I appreciate that he is a different type of villain but so far he doesn't have much interaction with the characters and that gives him less of an impact on the story. I also feel that his motives are vague and misplaced. I'm sure I'll learn more by the end but so far it's just a lot of nonsense and when he shows up it feels more random than anything.

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Eh, by the end of it the entire plot and all the characters' involvement seems a little muddled, I think. I guess I mostly just appreciate that he is a different type of villain, one that at least one of the main characters has a real emotional attachment to, so you tend to care a bit for the villain just due to that. Also the fact that the things Caius has to witness really are emotionally scarring, it lends him to a little more realism behind his motives I guess. One thing I think people tend to overlook in games like this is that in the real world, probably more than half of people have some kind of psychological disorder or long term problem, a ton of people have therapists or medications for it, there are many people who just have screws loose and cope with things very badly, even if they are intellegent people. I think that alone can produce a person like Caius, given the circumstances of what he's been through. I see video game characters in games like FF as having some of these same mental disorders at times, cuz hey, it happens to the best of us, and to an extent some of their actions and feelings are default and hard to control.

When I made my original post I had not quite seen the ending.

Here is what I think of Caius now;

(SPOILER)
-Caius is beyond death with the Heart of Chaos which is Etro's heart. Killing him means killing Etro, unless you are Etro's chosen Guardian of Yeul (Noel) and are also *ready*. The ancestors warn Noel that if he isn't truly ready to be the guardian then he will not be able to control the chaos unleashed when you go back to the Oracle Drive in a Dying World 700 AF.
-Caius has lived forever and knows more about the universe than anybody, despite our heroines thinking otherwise. He is wise, they are foolish.
-Caius tries to warn Serah that her changing of the timeline is for her wishes and that she cannot save anybody, without hurting everyone else. Caius also warns her that she has Eyes of Etro and that it will kill her. Serah doesn't listen and like most heroes, perseveres.

Going off of that I think Caius knows that trying to change the future for the better is futile. He knows how it ends and knows that changing the timeline only fixes some things, but causes trouble in other areas (just as he warns Serah). There is even an example of this when Hope's proto Fal-cie idea, while seemingly a good ting for humanity at first, backfires. There is also Alyssa, who now exists and is alive thanks to the time distortion because she dies in the Purge in the true timeline. Caius knows that the true timeline sucks balls and that no matter what there is going to be a lot of pain and suffering. Noel and Serah are foolish for thinking they can change the timeline for the better.

Caius wants to destroy the timeline instead of changing it because he has been around long enough to know changing it doesn't ever end up well for everyone, and in Yeul's case it makes her life shorter and shorter as all the Yeul's see the changes in the future. Because of all of this Caius doesn't value history and instead sees sadness and suffering and decides that it would be better if it were just destroyed.

What is funny is that despite Caius warning Noel and Serah in the game... They don't listen to them and think that their heart and good nature will bring a great outcome and in most stories, that is what happens... In fact, Final Fantas XIII is an example of this because the characters are supposed to be doomed to an eternity in crystal slumber (unless they are awakened with a new focus) but are magically saved... but not in XIII-2, in this game, it's sort of a "we told you this would happen, but you didnt believe us"
lol

Here is something I don't understand, when you visit (SPOILER)A Dying World during Noels dream, you fight Caius, what I don't understand is if Caius is all powerful, why doesn't he do what he did at the end and force Noel to stab him through the heart, then he wouldn't have to go travelling throughout history smurfing everything up

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Originally Posted by Lamia

When I made my original post I had not quite seen the ending.

Here is what I think of Caius now;

(SPOILER)
-Caius is beyond death with the Heart of Chaos which is Etro's heart. Killing him means killing Etro, unless you are Etro's chosen Guardian of Yeul (Noel) and are also *ready*. The ancestors warn Noel that if he isn't truly ready to be the guardian then he will not be able to control the chaos unleashed when you go back to the Oracle Drive in a Dying World 700 AF.
-Caius has lived forever and knows more about the universe than anybody, despite our heroines thinking otherwise. He is wise, they are foolish.
-Caius tries to warn Serah that her changing of the timeline is for her wishes and that she cannot save anybody, without hurting everyone else. Caius also warns her that she has Eyes of Etro and that it will kill her. Serah doesn't listen and like most heroes, perseveres.

Going off of that I think Caius knows that trying to change the future for the better is futile. He knows how it ends and knows that changing the timeline only fixes some things, but causes trouble in other areas (just as he warns Serah). There is even an example of this when Hope's proto Fal-cie idea, while seemingly a good ting for humanity at first, backfires. There is also Alyssa, who now exists and is alive thanks to the time distortion because she dies in the Purge in the true timeline. Caius knows that the true timeline sucks balls and that no matter what there is going to be a lot of pain and suffering. Noel and Serah are foolish for thinking they can change the timeline for the better.

Caius wants to destroy the timeline instead of changing it because he has been around long enough to know changing it doesn't ever end up well for everyone, and in Yeul's case it makes her life shorter and shorter as all the Yeul's see the changes in the future. Because of all of this Caius doesn't value history and instead sees sadness and suffering and decides that it would be better if it were just destroyed.

What is funny is that despite Caius warning Noel and Serah in the game... They don't listen to them and think that their heart and good nature will bring a great outcome and in most stories, that is what happens... In fact, Final Fantas XIII is an example of this because the characters are supposed to be doomed to an eternity in crystal slumber (unless they are awakened with a new focus) but are magically saved... but not in XIII-2, in this game, it's sort of a "we told you this would happen, but you didnt believe us"
lol

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More Spoilers HereLamia, I think your observations are pretty much correct. As harsh of an ending as the game has, it does seem like Caius is doing something he knows is above the others and they are foolish to think they can end suffering for everyone, or that they can stop the end of humanity. Maybe that is the message of the game, that humans won't live forever and aren't all powerful, and that we should value the life we have more instead of focusing on a distant future that we want to personalize and make into a reality.

One thing I thought of, is that if Caius lived till the end of days in Noel's time, then everyone is ALREADY dead, so going back in time to destroy the timeline is not so much of a horrible thing, is it? He wants to erase the thousands of people who are already dead in his time anyway, in order to destroy the timeline and bring about final release. The real question is, did Caius cause the end of humanity in his attempt to destroy the cocoon pillar? Or did that event come about naturally and cause humanity to slowly diminish? I guess there is where he should really be blamed, if he did in fact cause the downfall of a humanity that would have otherwise lived much longer.

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Originally Posted by ShineTheLion

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Originally Posted by Lamia

When I made my original post I had not quite seen the ending.

Here is what I think of Caius now;

(SPOILER)
-Caius is beyond death with the Heart of Chaos which is Etro's heart. Killing him means killing Etro, unless you are Etro's chosen Guardian of Yeul (Noel) and are also *ready*. The ancestors warn Noel that if he isn't truly ready to be the guardian then he will not be able to control the chaos unleashed when you go back to the Oracle Drive in a Dying World 700 AF.
-Caius has lived forever and knows more about the universe than anybody, despite our heroines thinking otherwise. He is wise, they are foolish.
-Caius tries to warn Serah that her changing of the timeline is for her wishes and that she cannot save anybody, without hurting everyone else. Caius also warns her that she has Eyes of Etro and that it will kill her. Serah doesn't listen and like most heroes, perseveres.

Going off of that I think Caius knows that trying to change the future for the better is futile. He knows how it ends and knows that changing the timeline only fixes some things, but causes trouble in other areas (just as he warns Serah). There is even an example of this when Hope's proto Fal-cie idea, while seemingly a good ting for humanity at first, backfires. There is also Alyssa, who now exists and is alive thanks to the time distortion because she dies in the Purge in the true timeline. Caius knows that the true timeline sucks balls and that no matter what there is going to be a lot of pain and suffering. Noel and Serah are foolish for thinking they can change the timeline for the better.

Caius wants to destroy the timeline instead of changing it because he has been around long enough to know changing it doesn't ever end up well for everyone, and in Yeul's case it makes her life shorter and shorter as all the Yeul's see the changes in the future. Because of all of this Caius doesn't value history and instead sees sadness and suffering and decides that it would be better if it were just destroyed.

What is funny is that despite Caius warning Noel and Serah in the game... They don't listen to them and think that their heart and good nature will bring a great outcome and in most stories, that is what happens... In fact, Final Fantas XIII is an example of this because the characters are supposed to be doomed to an eternity in crystal slumber (unless they are awakened with a new focus) but are magically saved... but not in XIII-2, in this game, it's sort of a "we told you this would happen, but you didnt believe us"
lol

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More Spoilers HereLamia, I think your observations are pretty much correct. As harsh of an ending as the game has, it does seem like Caius is doing something he knows is above the others and they are foolish to think they can end suffering for everyone, or that they can stop the end of humanity. Maybe that is the message of the game, that humans won't live forever and aren't all powerful, and that we should value the life we have more instead of focusing on a distant future that we want to personalize and make into a reality.

One thing I thought of, is that if Caius lived till the end of days in Noel's time, then everyone is ALREADY dead, so going back in time to destroy the timeline is not so much of a horrible thing, is it? He wants to erase the thousands of people who are already dead in his time anyway, in order to destroy the timeline and bring about final release. The real question is, did Caius cause the end of humanity in his attempt to destroy the cocoon pillar? Or did that event come about naturally and cause humanity to slowly diminish? I guess there is where he should really be blamed, if he did in fact cause the downfall of a humanity that would have otherwise lived much longer.

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(SPOILER) Well, the end of the world when humanity has wiped out is something Caius saw before he made his plan to make Cocoon fall himself. That essentially means that Caius is not the cause of the end of humanity in 700 AF. Cocoon can fall for many reasons... it is mentioned a few times in the story that the pillar will eventually deteriorate anyway and that humanity must intervene with science in order to stop this from happening (Hope's new cocoon and the metashield around the old Cocoon to stop it from devastating Pulse below when it does fall--this information can be read when viewing a fragment in the datalog). Anyway, despite what I said Caius is still mostly concerned about Yeul and wants to stop her rebirth and death throughout the timeline despite this cycle ending in 700 AF. Still, Caius wants to stop the suffering that all the Yeul's experienced by making it never exist to begin with. But I digress, so back to my point, Caius did not cause humanity's doom, at least in 700 AF because if Caius was successful he would have just followed up the destruction of Cocoon by destroying the timeline so obviously something else caused the end of humanity whether it was a giant flan, deterioration of the pillar, or some other reason. There are many things in the game, and even in the paradox endings, that threaten the pillar of Cocoon. Still, I see the flaw in my argument about Caius's motvations... My only counter argument to that is even if Caius could stop (or allow others to stop) the fall of humanity the fact that Yeul remains cursed is still an issue for him and therefore there is still a problem... or maybe, as he mentions in the story, that trying to change one aspect of history will likely cause a huge screw up in another part of history essentially making things just as bad or even worse so in the end only sees destroying the timeline as an option.

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Originally Posted by KaiserDragon

Here is something I don't understand, when you visit (SPOILER)A Dying World during Noels dream, you fight Caius, what I don't understand is if Caius is all powerful, why doesn't he do what he did at the end and force Noel to stab him through the heart, then he wouldn't have to go travelling throughout history smurfing everything up

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(SPOILER) That Caius that knew Noel in 700 AF was still the Guardian of Yeul and trying to encourage Noel to take over the torch. This was apparently before Caius decided to have a change of heart and want to destroy the timeline. Noel even laments over Caius disappearing before he had his chance to defeat him and take over his position, I am guessing Caius disappears because he decided that he didn't want to play by the rules anymore. Also, Caius did not exactly get what he wanted at the end of the game... having Noel stab him was his last resort as he had much more elaborate plan that would have not required his own sacrifice (so he could be with Yeul in Valhalla). Also, does Noel actually stab Caius? It's more like Caius killed himself because he forced Noel's sword into his chest. Noel didn't kill him and that is why Etro died. Caius's plan was to destroy Cocoon so the souls of the dead would have to pass through into the Unseen Realm and widen the gate, so that Chaos could pour through when Etro dies. This was an alternative to him having to kill himself to unleash Chaos and like I said before, allow him to be with Yeul.

Caius was an alright villain. He didn't have an annoying voice (Seymour), he wasn't absent for almost all of the game (Ultimecia), he had a good motive/purpose for being against you... but I couldn't help but feel that he wasn't really that evil. There was never a point that I felt that he was dangerous, never a point that I felt he wanted me to die, never a point that I felt he was out to destroy the world. Which takes a lot of the 'fear factor' out of him, and makes him more like a rival than a villain for me. He was alright, though, as I said earlier - not bad, just not epic.

I'm not a fan of Liam O'Brien's villain voice. He's a very good voice actor, so it's a shame to see his talent wasted in such roles.

I felt like the guy was alright. Because....

(SPOILER)Unlike most FF villains, he briefly showed that he considered the possibility of him being wrong, and it was before he was on his deathbed, so to speak. Plus, it was done subtly, and I like that sort of thing. I am glad he wasn't just Mr. Evil and left it at that. I was worried his character wasn't going to go anywhere, but once you find out his motivation, I felt like his actions made sense. Does that make him a great character? No. But the simplicity of his thinking is something more on the realistic side, aside from some theatrics of his. Long story short, I think he did alright, and he is a few hairs into the positive spectrum of being a good villain.

His design would have made a cool looking sprite.

EDIT: If you don't read the spoiler, my reason looks to be awesomely shallow.

This entire story makes me bonkers because time travel lol. That said, Caius makes no sense to me. Damned if you do. Damned if you don't. What I find interesting is the end of XIII. Where the fal'cie are trying to open the gate to bring the Goddess back from the Unseen Realm and how that ties in to this. That's where my interest lies, but that story is completely muddled as a very loose connection.

I ultimately liked Caius as a a main villain. I was annoyed at first when he seemed to appear for no reason, but I liked his visual design up front and hoped for deeper exposition. When it came, I enjoyed it. See below for more reasons why. Also, I'm a fan of theatrical villains along the lines of Kefka, Edea, and even Kuja. I couldn't get into the bland Vayne, Sin that looked like big pile of dog crap, or the ancient pope fal'cie. Melodrama and cliches are appealing to me in video game villains. I thought some of the lines during the end were pretty well delivered, even if over the top.

Most importantly, here's what really stood out to me about Caius, and the game in general:

SpoilerFirst cameos of Biggs and Wedge appeared in the FF series, then we got a lightsaber of sorts in FFVI. Cute. Now, the main villain used to be a protector bro that turned to the dark side because of his obsession with his inability to prevent the woman he loved from dying! Seriously, all he needed was a mask and some asthmatic breathing. I also think I saw a Death Star float up during the ending and Lightning encased in her own version of carbonite. And then we get the final Empire Strikes back Ending where the bad guys win and people are crying out in disappointment and clamoring for a conclusion, just like I remember from, what, 1980?

I think it's funny after years of teasing SE finally plans a Fabula Nova Crystalis "project" that's looking to be a trilogy. Not surprisingly, the first story dlc features a starship pilot with a furry (feathery?) cohort. Hmmm. Anyway, the geek in me likes the parallels, and it made me laugh as Caius' story was revealed. It also made me expect the To Be Continued ending despite staying away from all media before I finished the game.

And maybe that's why I'm one of the few that actually liked the ending a lot. Not only does it have a TESB vibe, it somehow has felt good for a week to actually have more to look forward to in a FF game after I finished everything, which hasn't happened in 25 years. I also grew so bored with the pseudo-happy endings that I was hoping for something different and controversial. This has been the first entertaining one for me, and the first that I've watched more than once, since IX.

Now, if Noel Skywalker gets daddy Cauis to reform before Caius finally dies in some dlc or XIII-3...

Caius was a very good antagonist, he wasn't really a "bad guy". He was portrayed as human and not really evil (SPOILER) until the secret ending.

The main drawback is that it looks like he just got of the "Look What the Cat Dragged In..." tour bus with Poison.