Is Noel gay? (Spoilers, Including Ending Spoilers)

Alright, I've seen this topic on GameFAQs and Gamespot, and I've seen people arguing over it like cats and dogs. I'm sure some people might have sighed or rolled their eyes just reading the title of this thread, or giggled and got a little lightheaded. Lol.

But seriously, there was a lot of controversy as to whether or not Vanille and Fang were in fact a lesbian couple in 13 (though lets avoid that topic of discussion in this post, it's old news). Now it seems I'm not the only one who played the sequel thinking... hmm... is Noel gay?

I'm gonna give you my honest opinion.

Click here to read it. Spoilers ahead. The bottom line is I don't think he was written as a character intended to be gay. That said, I think it is very possible to interpret that he is romantically interested in Caius. Yaoi (homoerotic) themes are pretty big in a lot of anime and Japanese gaming, even though Japanese culture is not entirely accepting of homosexuality. It's sort of a rising trend, and most people call it "fanservice" to mostly the female fans of these stories (and the gay ones too). I've seen plenty of Japanese animes/videogames with these themes in them and they are often very subtly planted so that those who want to see them, see them, and those who do not want to see them, don't. I think that is the case with 13-2, though I can't say for sure whether it was intentional or completely unintentional. To me, it doesn't really matter. A story is a very personal experience and people often interpret it in a way that helps them relate to it the easiest. That said, I'm going to give my take on Noel in this regard, and I don't expect anyone to agree with this or think it is canonical. I'm not trying to persuade anyway, but I have an opinion for sure and I feel it is interesting enough to discuss here and see if anyone else found themselves viewing things this way.

I personally felt like Noel was in love with Caius. There was a line where he was explaining to Serah why he was so ticked off at Snow and he said something like "I know what it feels like when someone you love just leaves you behind." At this point in the game, his story hadn't been fully brought to light yet so I wasn't sure if he was referring to Yeul or Caius. I would have to watch and find out. Clearly, it ended up being Caius who was the one who abandoned him. Now, of course the "love" he mentioned having for Caius could be a brotherly love, a friendly love, or even a sort of mentor/student or father/son kind of love, but yes, it could also be a romantic love as well.

I think there is some validity to the idea that Noel might be gay. He really bonds with Serah a lot during their journey and not once does he treat her like a girl. He never makes a pass at her, and even in the more intimate scenes where they are physically close to one another, his body language speaks volumes that he is not "interested" in Serah in that sense. In fact, I feel his body language throughout the story speaks loudest of what I perceive to be his feelings for Caius. Just pay close attention to Noel's body language when he is around Serah, Yeul, and Caius. He acts entirely different around Caius than he does around Yeul or Serah, he almost gets kind of nervous and loses his wits. He seems very frustrated and obsessive toward him. He wants in no way whatsoever to harm Caius, even though he knows it is Caius who is disrupting and attempting to destroy the timeline, and despite the fact that Noel has killed several enemies to get to him, he refuses to injure Caius (through the magic of a battle system where you can sword slap each other for half an hour and come out undamaged). Every time Caius taunts him and tries to get Noel to kill him, he refuses, even when Caius harms those closest to Noel. There is something there that will not allow Noel to harm this man and I feel it must be the "love" he mentioned having for him. I can't think of any other reason why he wouldn't at this point grant Caius's wish for death. In fact, I think their final scene together really reveals a lot about them.

I will also say that I think Caius has no romantic interest in Noel whatsoever. He simply sees Noel as an intriguing and complex person who is able to stand up to him as a rival and offer a perspective of truth that Caius himself does not want to admit to himself. Caius respects Noel for this. I feel he cares for Noel rather deeply, though he refuses to show it, and despite the queeny costume, I don't think Caius shows any tendency toward being romantically interested in another dude. In fact, after all he's been through I think romantic feelings are the last thing on his agenda and the last thing he is likely to feel.

In the discussions I saw elsewhere, people were saying that Noel and Caius's mutual obsession with Yeul is evidence that Noel is in fact in love with Yeul. I'd argue against that, because once again, I feel body language and Noel's attitude towards Yeul reveal a more "big brother" type of attitude towards her. She is, after all, four years younger than him and while it's not a huge enough age gap to say it's impossible for him to have feelings for her, I just don't see any real signals of that in the game. He does love Yeul deeply, but it does not seem in a romantic way. During the ending scene, despite Caius trying to destroy Yeul (and all of history) to save her from the Eyes of Etro, Noel will not kill Caius. Caius wants to eliminate Yeul and everyone else from existence and Noel keeps Caius alive still. Why the devil would he allow that risk to continue unless he has very deep feelings that he has some hope of being reciprocated someday, somehow? I think he has more feelings invested in Caius than he does in Yeul. In fact, he even tells Caius that the reason Yeul kept reincarnating is that she wanted to be with Caius. He is aware that Yeul has a very deep attachment to Caius, and it almost seems cathartic for him to say so. "Caius, the reason Yeul kept coming back is that she wanted to be with you." He won't say it, but he has the same reason for not killing Caius, he wants Caius in his life. He's attached, and cares for him deeply. He's trying to get Caius to realize that both him and Yeul care for him deeply, though for some reason he is afraid to bring up his own feelings in the matter (fear of rejection and further abandonment?).

Anyway... I'll be honest and say that I've wanted there to be a gay male protagonist in a FF game for a long time, so if anyone is going to read into something that may not have been intended to be a gay plot theme and think maybe it is one, it's me. Still, the fact that I saw other people drawing the same conclusions and asking the same questions made me wonder if this is more than wishful thinking, but perhaps a more common interpretation than I would have guessed.

So there's my take on Noel and his interests. Love me or hate me for starting this very fan-girlish drama prone thread. I hope it doesn't inspire drama, cause I can see people having very strong opinions of this and that is not what I intended to invoke here, but regardless of what your opinions are, just keep in mind that they are in fact just opinions, and let's try to be civil in our responses. The walks in life that I have been on led me to a very specific understanding of Noel's internalized thoughts and feelings, and I know that will be a very different experience for others. :)

Your thoughts on the matter?

I'm not so sure about that, while a lesbian relationship might have been implied with Fang and Vanille (note Fang was originally intended to be a male character but they wanted to balance the game out 3 guys and 3 girls, so Fang had a sex change, it was far to late by then to change the entire story aswell as the character design) I feel Japan would not put something like this into a game, of course that's not to say I would mind either way, I just think they way they parade the females of a game about (even the NPC's, have you ever seen an ugly Playable female?) plus you point about (SPOILER)his abandonment issues, the way he acts makes me believe someone from his tribe had left his home to "save someone or something" ended up getting killed, like Noel's father or mother, you don't see them in the game and it would stand to reason that seeing as he speaks of his grandma in the game that his parents would have also been alive most recently so where did they go? THIS is a much more likely opinion to me, especially with how he calls Snow out on being so reckless (Like someone else he knows?) can you honestly say you think that Caius is reckless? I don't think so, thought out and very smart is my opinion of him.

Also you need to consider something, I think Noel looked to Caius as an older brother, not a love interest as he Caius and Yeul are the last 3 people left in the entire world, I would have thought the tribe that Noel is a descendant of would be a very close nit family with Caius being an older brother, if you were one of the last 3 people on the planet would you want to kill the only male company in the world? I certainly wouldn't.

I'm not reading this thread because I don't want to be spoiled on parts I haven't gotten to yet, but I just wanted to say that the idea of the last human alive being gay is hilarious.

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Originally Posted by ShlupQuack

I'm not reading this thread because I don't want to be spoiled on parts I haven't gotten to yet, but I just wanted to say that the idea of the last human alive being gay is hilarious.

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I agree with this. Lol

And in response to KaiserDragon's comments: SpoilersI think it is just as likely that they have a sort of brotherly relationship going, but everyone is prone to developing romantic attachments, and if there are only two people left in the world to choose from, well haha I think it would be pretty easy to find yourself falling for one or the other in your teen years (especially considering they're both very good looking individuals, lol). It's just human nature to have romantic interests, and just from observing the character, I feel like Noel is more likely to have those feelings toward Caius than Yeul. There is definitely a very tight knit bond between Yeul, Noel, and Caius, but I am still very thoroughly convinced that Caius is the person Noel is mad at for abandoning him, and this is why he hates the way Snow treats Serah. Noel laments quite frequently that Caius was supposed to be Yeul's protector and that after he left them Noel couldn't stop Yeul from dying. I feel he blames Caius leaving for this, as he feels he wasn't ready to protect Yeul and thinks that Caius may have been able to find a way to stop her from dying.

I have no idea what Caius's apparent age is supposed to be. He is obviously several centuries old, but his appearance is a bit vague to me. He could look anywhere from 20 to 40 something. Japanese often make older characters look young. So I'm not sure whether to interpret a big age gap between Noel and Caius or not, as far as his physical appearance is concerned (and therefore Noel's perception of Caius, since he didn't know that Caius was centuries old before the plot of this game unfolds)

I know it is believed by most that the switch from male to female for Fang was to even out the cast as far as male and females, but when has FF ever cared about having an even ratio of male to female characters? There are almost always more males than females, and never more females than males (except in the case of X-2 which was an entirely female main cast). I think it's a valid opinion that they changed Fang for this reason, but I also think it may not be true. It seems likely to me in a game about religious/traditional viewpoints leading to widespread fear and discrimination that they would include a same-sex couple in fitting with the theme and tying it into reality. I don't believe that FF is simply a marketing device of SE. I still have some faith that the writers intend a rather avante-gard societal message often times, and the message of defiance of aggressive religious and traditional beliefs has been visited over and over again, so it seems like a natural step to me that they had a lesbian couple in 13. Also, are you not aware of how common homosexual themes are in Japanese entertainment? Especially anime. I see no reason why Final Fantasy wouldn't get in on this. There are TONS of very popular, successful animes with leading gay characters, and there are in fact some very popular anime series that are focused entirely around a gay romance or gay themes. I don't think Japan's younger generations who this entertainment is targeted toward (including FF games) are very shut-off to the idea of gay relationships.

Anyway, as for Noel, I think his character is scripted somewhat vaguely to allow for a more personal interpretation and make him more easily relatable. After all there isn't a one of us who hasn't lost someone important that we had deep feelings for, whether a friend, brother, sister, lover, etc. I'm not saying Noel was meant to be a gay character in this game, but I think in an unintentional way they made it very possible to interpret it that way. I'd be interested to hear from others who felt this way, as I've seen a handful of people on other forums that I'm not a member of, who do.

Well, for most of his life he didn't really have a lot of options, so I'm guessing he's a confused fellow.

I tend to assume that, in futuristic societies, most people are at least a little bi.

I was a little bicurious once.

Dignified Pauper: And now you're scared straight? :D (Just had to - to clarify, I didn't intend any derision in any way. Near-compulsive wit.)

I didn't spot the difference in Noel's behaviour towards girls or Caius, but I noticed that he wasn't half shocked to see Yeul (SPOILER)in Oerba. Reading the title, I thought I had to smack some heads, but reality kinda flipped after two paragraphs. I really don't understand why people care that much about something like this... No, not directed at the OP, but rather those who 'started' the debate in the first place.
Anyway, as for Noel not hitting on Serah - I can't describe to you how relieved I was! Seriously, stick a marginally pretty female [species here] in a game, and everything has to hit on her! (The Longest Journeys, Monkey Island's Elaine + LeChuck (still unclear why Golden Elaine was abducted by the monkeys in MI3), X-series, Secret Files, Xenosaga, Persona 3+4, Tex Murphy - not sure whether The Witcher and all the games with optional romances (Bioware-/Obsidian-RPGs + Wing Commander 3+4(!)) should count. And these are just the games I've played...) Romances in computer/video games are nearly all dodgy somehow, but they all rather show how limited in imagination/tact/guile/experience the developers/writers are. This time around, Square just opted out. I'm grateful.
(But I kinda curdle when I see Noel tossing Serah around like another moogle as they're fighting Atlas...)

Haha, I agree that the romances are overdone. I only started this topic to see if anyone on these forums got the same impression. It doesn't really matter either way. I wish they'd deliver us an obvious male-male relationship in one of these games at some point though. Just a side effect of having to sit through so many cheesy straight relationships in these games, rolling my eyes at the cliche nature of them. I do think the more understated they are though, the better these relationships tend to work out. This is probably one of the biggest reasons why I liked Vanille and Fang. They had something together, but it wasn't a focus of the story or some big cheesy thing that had to be gushed over like in most stories. Yay for that anyway. I'm glad XIII-2 didn't have a romance as well, and that Noel wasn't trying to constantly get with Serah. I laughed at how put off he seemed when she fell on top of him on Atlas. He yelled "HEY!" like it was her fault. Lol. XD

I'd have to disagree. Over the years I have read and watch a lot of gay things and I also like to believe my gaydar is pretty good. Now I realize that no mainstream Japanese company would make an openly gay protagonist, but sometimes they will resort to subtext for fanservice, which S-E has done before (see KH2). Even taking that into consideration, there is little evidence to suggest that Noel is gay. Actually, in general there is a distinct lack of romance in FFXIII-2. (SPOILER)Even when Serah is reunited with Snow, their interactions did not betray their relation. While it is established that Snow and Serah are engaged, it is often hard to tell that they actually are.

As for Noel not hitting on Serah? It is established early on that she and Snow are engaged. True, it might not stop some people from doing it but it would be rather in bad taste to make such a character. Sure, they grow to care about each other, but Noel was pretty much aware of the friendzone when he arrived at New Bodhum.

As for Noel and Caius' relationship? It is written to be strictly as mentor/student with some friendship there. Therein is the most probable reason why Noel (SPOILER)doesn't want to kill him at first in his own timeline. That and the fact that Noel, Caius and Yeul are probably the only living people left on Pulse. If neither those were not enough, then the game goes on to tell you why you shouldn't kill Caius either: he has Etro's heart. All in all, not a good idea.

Finally, Yeul and Noel. There could be something there, possibly but I have a feeling that dating a (SPOILER)semi-immortal, continually being reborn seeress would have it's drawbacks. There is a sense of family between the three, that is for sure, but part of that might be necessity given the circumstances at the time.

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Originally Posted by ShineTheLion

There was a line where he was explaining to Serah why he was so ticked off at Snow and he said something like "I know what it feels like when someone you love just leaves you behind."

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The Japanese are ones for subtleties, the line was "someone you care about" not "love". Quite possibly referring to both Caius and Yeul here since both left him after a fashion.

One last thing, the only way I can picture them together is Caius as a total sadistic seme with dubcon involved. Nothing Noel would ever enjoy. Then again, in Yaoiland rape means love. /shrugs

Given the circumstances, I don't think the writers had any intention of Yaoi fanservice in this game. I do however feel that it is open to many interpretations. I heard a quote once that I strongly agree with. Once you release a story to the world, it is no longer your story, but everyone's story who witnesses it. I think that is true in the sense of saying that a person will take the story and make of it what makes the most sense to them. I remember when J.K. Rowling came out and said Dumbledore was gay, everyone was applauding her for it, but what confused me about that whole bit was that she didn't write Dumbledore into the Harry Potter books as openly or obviously gay. It was very subtle and could have been construed, but I don't feel she wanted to take the risk of that tarnishing her books' success. There were plenty of people who would have never agreed that Dumbledore was gay until Rowling said it, and as far as I'm concerned, if she didn't specify it in the books, then it's up to the reader. I feel like this is probably the closest case to what I interpreted in Noel. If you start up the game and play through the whole thing considering him to be a gay dude, it makes absolute sense for his character and is compatible with his actions and personality. At the same time, if you don't consider him to be gay, it makes just as much sense. For me, it just made the story better to consider him that way, it's a personal bias. But I wasn't surprised to see some others online who felt the same way. I am surprised though that no one so far here on EOFF seemed to picture it this way.

Anyway, like I said before, it doesn't really make a difference overall. I think when it comes to this game having a lack of romance, you're pretty much right, Summoner of Leviathan. Even Snow and Serah's relationship did seem sort of frozen and taking a back seat to the crisis of the storyline. Still, with so many blocked and suppressed feelings going on in this game, I couldn't help but read into the characters and wonder what's going on in their heads. There were times I thought even Serah might be giving up on snow as a lover. Sometimes it seemed like she was depressed about it and viewed Noel as such a strong role model that she wished she could have a lover more like him.

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Originally Posted by ShineTheLion

Given the circumstances, I don't think the writers had any intention of Yaoi fanservice in this game. I do however feel that it is open to many interpretations. I heard a quote once that I strongly agree with. Once you release a story to the world, it is no longer your story, but everyone's story who witnesses it. I think that is true in the sense of saying that a person will take the story and make of it what makes the most sense to them.

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Which basically validates all fanfiction. :p

Personally, if I was Serah, I'd be suffering from some abandonment issues right about now and be pretty pissed at Snow. I'd totally utilize the scary teacher persona on him.

Just for reference, if you put "Spoilers, Including Ending Spoilers" in the title of a thread, people will expect spoilers - there is no need to put a whole bunch of spoiler tags throughout your posts. ;)

- He almost always talks about Caius with a negative attitude, scowl on face, etc.
- He refers to Yeul as 'my Yeul'. He does not refer to Caius as 'his Caius' at any point, even when there is supposedly a 'clone' or something around - he just calls him 'the real Caius'.
- He most likely will not kill Caius because he does not like to kill in general - this is stated by Caius at some point near the end, I think? The other reason would be that, since Yeul always comes back to life to be with Caius, Noel would not want to kill something which he feels makes Yeul happy.
- He's clearly into 'his Yeul'. The thought of their reunion drives him to keep going on numerous occasions. And in his 'dream world' where he is supposedly in his happy place, it's smiling with Yeul, not with Caius.

Eh, yeah I agree they made the characters have an interpretative nature when it comes to relations. It's really not an odd or out of place thing in Japanese media asanyone that has watched a decent amount of anime can attest to. Defintiely, Noel can be interpreted as gay and Yeul could also be interpreted as a loli. Like someone else said, I think they even blurred the lines between Serah/Snow. I disagree that there is no evidence for a Noel/Serah relationship though especially when Snow and Noel end up having a masculine clash when they first meet. lol

This happened in the first game too. There were moments for LightningxSnow, VanillexSazh, FangxVanille, VanillexHope (she practically gave him a boner when they were on the airbike and there is also a secret cutscene in grand pulse that shows them flirting)... Oh, and there is a significant community of LightningxHope shippers which I don't see much evidence for at all with the exception that they were paired together when the party splits in FF13 lol

You guys are crazy, Noel isn't romantically interested in Caius. Stop this before it turns into fanfiction fuel.

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Originally Posted by Mirage

You guys are crazy, Noel isn't romantically interested in Caius. Stop this before it turns into fanfiction fuel.

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Like that is avoidable. :p

Is he gay or maybe a little bi? Possibly! Does he have a hard-on for Caius? I personally don't think so.

I don't think the game provides us with any even remotely definite clues as to what his sexual orientation is, and any attempt to find these clues tells us more about the sexual desires or fears of the person looking for them.

Noel can't be gay... he wouldn't be interested with someone who has as bad a fashion sense as Caius.

Nah, he's too crazy about Yuel to be gay.

Also, really, Noel romantic for Caius? That's as bad as the Vanille being romantic for Fang...thing.

I was extremely greatful to the writers because of Noel and Serah's relationship being completely plotonic, it felt more real. If Noel even flirted with Serah in any way it would've been a really dumb move considering the situation they're in. And realistically in a tribe, where males are supposed to actively assert their alpha male qualities in a fight to the death to become the Seeress's guardian, I don't see homosexuality working in that environment at all.