No, I don't want his mopey ass in my party!

Cloud always has to be in your party except for one brief sequence in Disc 2 but unlike say Chrono Trigger where Crono is always in your party, but once he returns, you have the option to continue playing without him in your party, Cloud returns to default main hero mode despite most of his story being resolved. So the question is, had VII followed CT's mechanic and you could boot Cloud out of your party, who would your new three man team be?

I'd probably do Cid, Tifa, and Barret. Cid and Barret cause they have powerful limit breaks and are likable characters, and Tifa simply because she's useful in battle despite being a whiny stupid wench. ;)

Vincent, Red XIII and, well, Cloud. They all have limit breaks that do multiple hits (Red's actually isn't his final limit break) and I find that useful. xD

Cid, Vincent, and Tifa. No real reason.

Cid, Vincent, Nanaki.

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Originally Posted by Cim

Vincent, Red XIII and, well, Cloud. They all have limit breaks that do multiple hits (Red's actually isn't his final limit break) and I find that useful. xD

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The point of the thread is to make a party without Cloud. :p

For me, probably Tifa, Barrett, and either Red or Vincent. Every time I've played the game it's usually been two of these four + Cloud for the final battle. I've never really done much with Yuffie, Cait Sith, or Cid outside of their mandatory sections.

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Originally Posted by Wolf Kanno

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Originally Posted by Cim

Vincent, Red XIII and, well, Cloud. They all have limit breaks that do multiple hits (Red's actually isn't his final limit break) and I find that useful. xD

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The point of the thread is to make a party without Cloud. :p

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I couldn't do it.

I wouldn't want to boot Cloud out of my party. He's not mopey; he is just a complete and utter asshole and it's hilarious. It's a shame KH, AC and other later versions of Cloud portrayed him as a self-pitying tool, but the original FFVII Cloud was a dick. Barret and Cid would complete the comedy trio.

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Originally Posted by Psychotic

He's not mopey; he is just a complete and utter asshole and it's hilarious. It's a shame KH, AC and other later versions of Cloud portrayed him as a self-pitying tool, but the original FFVII Cloud was a dick.

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Quoted and bolded.

I would go with Cid, Red XIII & Yuffie. Cid because he is awesome and goes in every party. The rest is really a process of elimination, I don't like Cait, Vincent or Barret and I don't think Tifa is a particularly useful character. So I am left with Red and WK's favorite character.

Cloud has Omni-Slash, and aside of the limit breaks and weapon types, all the characters are clones. Why on earth would I want to replace Cloud, Cid or Barret with one of those other characters with a useless one-hit ultimate limit break?

I guess I'd use Yuffie, Barret and Cid, but I'd have to keep Yuffie set on Level 3 for Doom of the Living.

Yuffie, Cid Vincent.

Yuffie and Vincent are long ranged, and have the two best ultimate weapons, and cid is just pretty awesome.
I might exchange Cid and Cloud every now and then.

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Originally Posted by Hypoallergenic Cactuar

Yuffie, Cid Vincent.

Yuffie and Vincent are long ranged, and have the two best ultimate weapons, and cid is just pretty awesome.
I might exchange Cid and Cloud every now and then.

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If you through the Long Range materia on Cid then you suddenly have a backrow party capable of smashing the trout outta folks. Plus they're some of my favourite characters, so wins all around.

Yuffie, Tifa, Red.

I think I'm in the minority that I like Yuffie. Tifa is BA, and who doesn't love Nanaki?

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Originally Posted by Psychotic

I wouldn't want to boot Cloud out of my party. He's not mopey; he is just a complete and utter asshole and it's hilarious. It's a shame KH, AC and other later versions of Cloud portrayed him as a self-pitying tool, but the original FFVII Cloud was a dick. Barret and Cid would complete the comedy trio.

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The most memorable bit of character development Cloud gets is the shattering of his persona. His betrayal, descent into madness, and salvation (at the hands of Tifa) are probably one of the single most memorable bits of development for an individual character in gaming.

So, when the developers look back at Cloud and try to work from his personality, that's what they think of. Which is a shame, because while that was very important and very well executed, it really is not at all what Cloud's personality as a whole is about.

I have to admit, though, I do think they have realized their mistake. Lightning from XIII was based on Cloud, and they did seem to capture his dickishness really well.

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If you through the Long Range materia on Cid then you suddenly have a backrow party capable of smashing the tit outta folks. Plus they're some of my favourite characters, so wins all around.

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I thought if your whole party was in the back rank, you lost the benefits. That it was only while they were behind the rest of the team that it worked. Been too long since I've looked at that mechanic to be sure though.




As for my party, it would be hard to leave Cloud, as he gets one of the only two weapons in the game with Triple Materia growth. But I'd probably pick Tifa (because Tifa is awesome), Cid, and Yuffie. Tifa for sheer awesomeness. Cid for the Scimitar. And Yuffie for the Conformer.

I don't know why people think the Scimitar is so good weapon for AP growth.
2 slots x 3 = 6 slots worth of AP
The Dragoon lance has 8 slots, so even at x1 you are still getting 33% more AP.
And if you take something like the Javelin:
5 slots x 2 = 10 slots worth of AP

I'd still keep Cloud. But if I had to boot him, I guess Cid is a good replacement!

Hmmm... I'm gonna go with Cid, Red and Tifa.

I also would have Cloud if I had the choice though. Cid is simply awesome. One of the best characters in the entire series. I loved Red's back story and at the end of the day... he's a talking lion. Which is cool. Tifa is equally awesome.

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Originally Posted by Skyblade

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Originally Posted by Psychotic

I wouldn't want to boot Cloud out of my party. He's not mopey; he is just a complete and utter asshole and it's hilarious. It's a shame KH, AC and other later versions of Cloud portrayed him as a self-pitying tool, but the original FFVII Cloud was a dick. Barret and Cid would complete the comedy trio.

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The most memorable bit of character development Cloud gets is the shattering of his persona. His betrayal, descent into madness, and salvation (at the hands of Tifa) are probably one of the single most memorable bits of development for an individual character in gaming.

So, when the developers look back at Cloud and try to work from his personality, that's what they think of. Which is a shame, because while that was very important and very well executed, it really is not at all what Cloud's personality as a whole is about.

I have to admit, though, I do think they have realized their mistake. Lightning from XIII was based on Cloud, and they did seem to capture his dickishness really well.

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I've begun to disagree with the idea that the developers don't know who Cloud is, I'm actually starting to feel it's the fans who have an obscued view of who the real Cloud is. I mean VII never actually tried to define the real Cloud, we spend most of the game in his "I'm Zack" state and the next biggest part in his "Who am I? Zenogias!?" state. The Cloud that emerges from all that is a stark contrast from both versions and in the last few playthroughs of the game in the Post-Compilation era, I found that Cloud's personality and outlook after he regains his true sense of self is actually quite similar to the mopey undecisive whiner that we see in the Compilation. I feel too many fans often mistake the Cloud you meet in the beginning as the "real" Cloud, when that couldn't be farther from the truth.

I feel fans forget how many times Cloud seriously begins to question himself about what he is doing, or how many times he gets berted by both Barret and Cid for being indecisive, or how often Tifa is there to cheer him up and make him feel confident in the original VII. None of this happens to Cloud in the mindsmurf state, but this persona is actually in-sync with the way we see him as a kid. Now, none of this is to say true Cloud isn't brave or heroic, I mean he did follow Tifa to Mt. Nibel and tried to save her when she fell, and you can't deny his confrontation with Sephy in the Nibelheim Reactor, but it's also true that Cloud only gets like this when he's backed into a corner. Yet I do feel that Cloud's true personality is that of a shy, indecisive, and sometimes whiny guy who does amazing things when the chips are down. Then again, Cloud really is meant to be a deconstruction of the RPG hero archetype. I mean he starts off cool, confident, and a total badass, and ends the game resembling more of a real human being who just happens to have exceptional ability but the point was that Cloud is suppose to represent the "everyman" and the "everyman" is a far cry from confident, smug, and dripping with testosterone like the Cloud we're introduced in the beginning of VII represents.

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Originally Posted by VeloZer0

I don't know why people think the Scimitar is so good weapon for AP growth.
2 slots x 3 = 6 slots worth of AP
The Dragoon lance has 8 slots, so even at x1 you are still getting 33% more AP.
And if you take something like the Javelin:
5 slots x 2 = 10 slots worth of AP

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If going for pure net AP growth, then yes. If you want to work on a particular, high cost materia, though, it's quite nice.

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Originally Posted by Psychotic

I wouldn't want to boot Cloud out of my party. He's not mopey; he is just a complete and utter asshole and it's hilarious. It's a shame KH, AC and other later versions of Cloud portrayed him as a self-pitying tool, but the original FFVII Cloud was a dick. Barret and Cid would complete the comedy trio.

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Pretty much this. Besides, I was FAR more narked at being forced to stop using Aeris.

You know, it is really odd that he was trying to be zack, ut then zack is this really honorable nice guy who thinks nothing for himself, even if he does boast.
Cloud was just a badass

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Originally Posted by Wolf Kanno

dripping with testosterone

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If Cloud ever had that much testosterone, his hair wouldn't be all smurfing fluffy (like in AC) and stick up like it does.

I didn't like being stuck with Dart in my Legend of Dragoon party either.

Barret, Cid and Vincent, with Cid using Highwind as his limit break for moar dakka.

As far as Cloud goes...

I think it's more than a little obvious that Square tried to make Cloud into a symbol of the demographic they felt were the most numerous fans of Final Fantasy VII. Yes, I'm going to say it...Square needed to turn Cloud into an emo in order to appeal to the fans they thought were the most numerous players of their games at the time.

But that's not what Cloud is, if you go by the game itself.

In Final Fantasy VII, Cloud starts off as a prototypical "RPG Hero." He even gives the tutorial to the other characters. He's got it all: muscle, skill, knowledge, women with gigantic supple breasts fawning over him...

And then it all goes straight to smurfing hell. Cloud descends into utter madness, his super-mercenary identity broken over a rock.

This kind of thing happens to people...when you're young and full of energy, you're ready to go out there and take on the world, live it up, have adventures. Then your back starts hurting. You find that you spend a lot of time doing dishes and grocery shopping. The dull monotony of life steals in and breaks your teenage fantasies of adulthood over its knee.

To face this, that you are just a human being, with ordinary, everyday problems and solutions that aren't fancy or flashy, is the core statement of Cloud's story. It may be the most bizarre coming-of-age story known to the history of storytelling.

Cloud is just a normal person...there's really nothing remarkable about him, and he's pretty centered by the time the story wraps up.

All the whinging he does later on (in the Compilation) isn't teen angst...it's supposed to be post-adventure, very adult depression. That it was so poorly executed speaks volumes about the loss incurred when the creator(s) of the original game jumped ship, and how far computer-animated movies have to go in terms of creating an emotionally compelling and "human" performance.

Did emos exist in '97?

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Originally Posted by Jiro

Did emos exist in '97?

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I think back then they were called "goths."

I wanted to boot cloud out of my party, I wouldve kept Cid as leader and had RedXIII tag along.

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Originally Posted by Skyblade

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Originally Posted by VeloZer0

I don't know why people think the Scimitar is so good weapon for AP growth.
2 slots x 3 = 6 slots worth of AP
The Dragoon lance has 8 slots, so even at x1 you are still getting 33% more AP.
And if you take something like the Javelin:
5 slots x 2 = 10 slots worth of AP

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If going for pure net AP growth, then yes. If you want to work on a particular, high cost materia, though, it's quite nice.

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Yeah. Good luck mastering Knights of the Round with a single-growth weapon.

The whole point of the triple-growth weapons is that they sacrifice slots for super AP growth on those three particular materia. Using the triple-growth weapons, you can master most basic materia in a handful of fights with Magic Pots/Movers.

I've been replaying VII lately and I have to say that everything about Cloud speaks naught but one single word to me: Mercenary. That's what he is. He's not an ex-SOLDIER, he's not a hero, he's not a team leader, Cloud is simply muscle by the time you cure him of his identity crisis. Suddenly, that posturing at the end of every battle can say nothing else about him other than that he tries to look good. He doesn't do that pose because it comes naturally to him or because it serves a purpose as a leader. He does it to look cool and that's not a leader. Cid's a leader. He's the captain of the damned Highwind. He refused the job when it was first offered to him by Barret, but he gave a hell of a department speech when the party crashed the Rocket into Meteor. Barret always says he's got to smack Cloud in the back of the head and Cid always claims he's gotta give him a kick in the ass. But no one's really willing to admit to Cloud's face that he can't lead them properly and should just step aside. Hell, even Vincent would make a better leader. Even if they were girls named Beretta, Valerie, and Sydney (as long as their basic personalities remained) they'd still be better leaders than Cloud (who would even be a pain in the ass as a chick). I mention that because I can't cast my vote for thieving Yuffie, hippie Aerish, or wannabe tomboy Tifa as leaders 'cause they couldn't have done a good job either. Neither could Cait Sith (who could take a talking cat seriously?) nor Red/Nanaki (he's roughly 14... he's technically younger than Yuffie, and he waxes way too philisophical about stuff he really doesn't understand.)

All that being said, I still like Cloud. He's useful. I just like him as a mercenary. Fine, call him a main character. Call him THE main character and map most of the story around him. But don't stick him on me like flypaper and then call him my leader because that ship's gonna sink like a stone.

If I wasn't allowed to have Cloud on my team, I wouldn't play the game. If Cloud didn't exist in the game, my party would consist of any trio minus Aeris and Cait Sith. I hate that useless cat... and Aeris dies at the end of the first disc instantly wasting any effort you put into building her up. There should have been some kind of reward to exerting effort on one of the most useless characters in the entire FF series.

By the way, as long as we're discussing how Square could have made VII perform better (i.e. allowing Cloud to be removed from the party), I'll add my two cents that the damage limit of 9999-restriction shouldn't have existed and if there's ever a remake (c'mon guys, you're not fooling anybody, you know it's just a matter of time... maybe three/four more years...) that's one thing that should be amended.

You have no idea how much I wish we could've had the option to boot Cloud from the party.

My party has only to do with how much I personally like them. Don't care a bit about strength in weapons or attacks.

So knowing this, Barret, Red XIII, and Yuffie, my three personal favorites, would be my main party.

I always kept a save right when Cloud was diagnosed with materia poisoning just because of how much more I enjoyed Cid running the show. Hell, wonder what FF7 would be like if you just started as Cid post-rocket incident and joined with AVALANCHE to get back at Shinra for totally screwing you out of your dream in life with Cloud as just a side-character. Probably would be the GOAT FF game.

Anyway, Cid for general badassery, Yuffie to load down with materia + Conformer and spam Doom of The Living and Morph, and Barret for more badassery.

cloud was a badass. dont care if he was wimpy for a while. he got cooler anyway.

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Originally Posted by DRAIN JOIN

cloud was a badass. dont care if he was wimpy for a while. he got cooler anyway.

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http://forums.eyesonff.com/images/eoff_smilies/cool.gif

If you are going for multiple hit limit breaks, then:

Cid, Barret, and....Cloud would still be in there.

You could add Tifa in there. If you get into the sexy-vibe groove of her slots game, you can pull off all of them for exciting damage.

I find it amusing how practical everyone is being. I mean I used Chrono Trigger as an example of a game that allowed you to remove the main character and yet Crono is pretty much heads and shoulders above the others in terms of usefulness. I feel everyone kind of missed the point of this thread but whatever. :p

Chrono Cross' New Game + gave you the Relief Charm to have any character you liked (or just any character you'd neglected) fill in for Serge/Lynx during battle. It technically bothers me that you can't replace Serge outright. I use Norris as my Relief because he's one of my favorite characters. When I try to enter the Viper Manor when it's taken over by the Porre Army, I can't because Norris isn't ACTUALLY in my party. So I've got to walk back out and do the swappy, then hit the nearest RoF to swappy again so that when I fight the next battle, I won't have to see the main character I'd already been stuck with for an entire playthrough. You might say this statement contradicts one I made in a thread in GSE called Chrono Crossers wherein I noted I liked Lynx more than Serge (matter of fact, on a list of 15 favorites, Serge doesn't even appear because I hate his outfit).

For a remake, Square could give us at least that much.

FF7 is one of the few games where I don't mind having the main character forced on me, because Cloud is a severely powerful badass.