Ultimecia's Griever

If you think about it again, Griever is THE ONLY connection Between Ultimecia and Squall.
Squall has a ring called Griever and Ultimecia has a GF called Griever.
My point is Griever might be the key to solve Ultimecia's character/mysteries.
First we need to figure out what Griever is all about.
Because the game lacks information about Griever.
The only way for us to know Griever is through our speculation alone.
I think Ultimecia summons Griever from within her.
Just like how Squall summons GF from within him.
We can ASSUME Griever died/disappeared at the final battle.
So What is Griever?

Here are some thoughts from old members.

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What I wonder is did Griever exist before (SPOILER)Ultimecia meets Squall?

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Ultimecia seems to always know Squall. That's because he's kind of involved in a time loop.

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I don't know what you mean with "substantial proof", but there is really only one explanation offered by the game, and that is that Griever was created by Ultimecia in the final battle. Consider what Scanning reveals about Griever:

"Griever
In Squall's mind, the strongest GF. Through Ultimecia's power, continues fighting without vanishing."

Further, Ultimecia's Witch Embodiment powers granted her the ability to reach into other's minds and pull things out (as she often displays when completely removing a character's stock of a certain type of Spell). In the case of Griever, she simply manifested the thoughts she pulled from Squall's mind regarding what he believed to be the most powerful being in existance. This would be a great strategical move on Ultimecia's part. This is made even more plausible when examining what the japanese version has Ultimecia say:

Ultimecia: Your feelings, I shall summon the most powerful of things
[from them]! The more strongly you feel, that will be what shall torment
you. Fufu."

The japanese quote there is 'substantial' enough, I would say.

As for whether or not Griever existed before this as some mythical GF, it is possible. The Griever Ultimecia created based on Squall's ideas may have in turn been based on a real GF, but there really is no way of knowing. The important thing is that the Griever WE meet, was created by Ultimecia.

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You cannot under any circumstance summon Griever. Naming him was just a way to fully demonstrate that the monster Ultimecia summoned was the one on Squalls mind.

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I never thought there was a question as to what Griever was, it is a GF created by Ultimecia based on what Squall sees as the ultimate power. In a way it is a physical manifestation of Squall's sense of strength.

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You know, the whole event when Adel woke up. The monsters started fleeing from the moon. Yes, the moon where it symbolizes Griever. Seems Suspicious as well.

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Personally, I reckon Griever is a legendary monster from the past, like many other GFs. Squall admires lions, and Griever is a giant, winged lion spirit, so I can understand why he'd pick Griever as a "mascot" for himself. He believes Griever to be the most powerful GF, a belief that Ultimecia shares. That'd explain why she has the GF in her possession. Being the most powerful sorceress, she'd have access to the most powerful weapons.

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Assuming both griever are one and the same then the only two people who could possibly know what it really is are Rinoa and Squall. Unless it is literally chained inside the necklace

My fun little theory is that Ultimecia learned about Griever through possessing Rinoa and then made it real to try and intimidate Squall :p

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Originally Posted by Jessweeee♪

My fun little theory is that Ultimecia learned about Griever through possessing Rinoa and then made it real to try and intimidate Squall :p

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This one makes sense.

So do you guys agree that Griever died/disappeared at the final battle?
The only example a GF died in a battle is Odin.
Also we don't really know how GF get created in the first place.
GF seems to know it's name from the beginning
For example Bahamut knew it's name is Bahamut in the first place.
Bahamut:
"I am...Bahamut
"Squall :
"The Great GF ...Bahamut."
Bahamut:
"...GF?I...?
Using my powers...
... It is you humans...I fear...

Due to lack of information from the game we can't understand what is GF.

Selphie mentioned that she found a GF inside a monster, what could that mean?

...and Siren can be drawn from Elvoret.

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Selphie mentioned that she found a GF inside a monster, what could that mean?

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and Siren can be drawn from Elvoret.

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I think that GF fought with that monster and almost defeated.
So that GF chose to junctioned itself to that monster instead got killed by that monster.
That's why Squall can draw GF from Elvoret.
Well that's just my personal opinion.

OR monsters can learn Junction ability themselves just like Squall and co.

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Originally Posted by Jessweeee♪

My fun little theory is that Ultimecia learned about Griever through possessing Rinoa and then made it real to try and intimidate Squall :p

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I like that. Very simple. Makes the most amount of sense.

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Originally Posted by Jessweeee♪

My fun little theory is that Ultimecia learned about Griever through possessing Rinoa and then made it real to try and intimidate Squall :p

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That's much more plausible than the R=U and S=G theories. I'm going to go with that as the reason.

Well, one of the theories is that Ultimecia is indeed Rinoa in the future, assuming an alternate reality took place where Squall and the SeeD weren't there to defeat her. Therefore, the Griever that Ultimecia summons is the Griever in Squall's necklace, which he ultimately gave to Rinoa, who then took it to the future with her as she became Ultimecia and used it the battle agains Squall just as pretext or whatever.
To answer your question, I believe Griever dies after the battle, Odin was killed by Seifer, the same way Squall and co kill Griever and almost killed Bahamut and all the other GFs you're able to acquire through battle.The only difference is those GFs chose to offer their services to you instead of dying and Griever was being controlled by Ultimecia, ultimately not being able to offer his services to you and dying instead.

I like to believe GF, guardian forces are made from mascots, and are given the strengths that someone as powerfull as squall believes they get, in a sense eternalizing the warrior in the form of a guardian. I like the time loop concept that riona is ultimecia, even if dismissed. I believe greiver was made from the ring rinoa gets from squall, and since the gf is squalls essence, it's why it fed of his memory, and caused rinoa to forget him, while she became ultimecia, and obsessed with compressing time to get something she knew she wanted. she couldn't remember what, and ended up being the one to kill squall. with all the twists in the story line, that would fit right in, and leaves conclusion

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Originally Posted by Evol

I think that GF fought with that monster and almost defeated.
So that GF chose to junctioned itself to that monster instead got killed by that monster.
That's why Squall can draw GF from Elvoret.
Well that's just my personal opinion.

OR monsters can learn Junction ability themselves just like Squall and co.

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The first part sounds doable. The second part leaves me to wonder why the Elvoret wouldn't have summoned Siren in combat. Understandably, most monsters are idiots and don't do half the cool things they're supposedly capable of, but bosses are supposed to be more strategic or just more difficult.

Anyway, I think GFs are X-Aeons.

By the way, I just watched a video of the final battle (I haven't played VII since I finished it the one time and lost the discs six years ago... funny that they were still in the case and I'd originally lost the manuals. After losing the case, I found the manuals. Fate has f'd up sense of humor.) anyway, I just noticed Ultimecia's final form is later echoed by Anima in FFX with a second body under the first dangling upside-down.

Griever does not exist in the "real" world of Final Fantasy VIII until he is summoned by Ultimecia. It is a symbol of Squall, he is the creator of the idea of what that lion-demon-whatever is. Ultimecia can read minds and partially control reality. That is why she was able to summon him. It is not explained in the Ultimania how much of reality she can control and "create" things this way but at least she can do that. That is pretty powerful, actually.

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Originally Posted by Sephiroth

Griever does not exist in the "real" world of Final Fantasy VIII until he is summoned by Ultimecia. It is a symbol of Squall, he is the creator of the idea of what that lion-demon-whatever is. Ultimecia can read minds and partially control reality. That is why she was able to summon him. It is not explained in the Ultimania how much of reality she can control and "create" things this way but at least she can do that. That is pretty powerful, actually.

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This. Griever was Squall's idea of an ultimate GF, Ultimecia just took that idea from his head and made it into reality.

well said

Griever is a ring that depicts a higher consciousness that Squall embodies. A ring represents a vow, or psychological loop that manifests as the time compression event.

http://arenagames.org/forum/for-imag...ft-griever.png

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I tried to think of the most harmless thing. Something I loved from my childhood. Something that could never ever possibly destroy us. Mr. Stay Puft! - Ray

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I think of Griever as Squall's Stay-puft marshmallow man except in this case Squall wasn't thinking of a (supposed to be)harmless being but rather the most powerful guardian foce. Ultimecia knows that Squall regards Griver as the most powerful GF. As previously referenced from the scan, it seems to be public knowledge:

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Griever
In Squall's mind, the strongest GF.

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I think Ultimecia wanted to intimidate Squall by forcing him to face what he regarded as the most powerful force. At least in the GF world.
Griever was probably one of my favorite bosses in that whole game. The look, the music and the difficulty were all great.

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Originally Posted by Foo

I think Ultimecia wanted to intimidate Squall by forcing him to face what he regarded as the most powerful force. At least in the GF world.
Griever was probably one of my favorite bosses in that whole game. The look, the music and the difficulty were all great.

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Difficulty? I THINK NOT.

I'm gonna go ahead and play devils advocate :radred: and say that Squall IS Griever. When Squall dies he becomes a GF and in contrast to the R=U theory, he promised to always protect Rinoa and be her knight even if she is the worlds enemy :D

The question of 'what is a GF' has always kinda troubled and confused me. I still have the facts about their nature and source down in my head to this day, and it annoys me that they seem so inconsistent:

- GFs can be drawn from living things. The living things GFs are initially drawn from don't seem capable of summoning them.
- GFs appear to feed on the memories of their users, or at least cause memory loss if junctioned for a long time.
- They're somewhat mortal, so they can die. But they don't seem to age, either. See Bahamut, who had been sitting around collecting dust for centuries... same for the brothers Sacred and Minotaur.
- Like Sacred and Minotaur, they don't seem to die with their users. They don't need a human mind in order to exist, so they're not brain monsters.
- Are the non-junctionable GFs actually GFs?? I mean, this actually includes Moombas, MiniMog, Chocobos and GILGAMESH.
- You draw Cactuar from Jumbo Cactuar and Tonberry from Tonberry King. Siren, sorta wind elemental seeming, is drawn from Elvoret, a wind elemental, and Griever is (presumably) drawn from Squall. This would make one assume that they're extensions of the self, but AGAIN, they can be drawn from multiple sources (Eden can either be drawn from Tiamat or Ultima Weapon) and sometimes their sources aren't even living things (Doomtrain has to be assembled with items).
- They can be junctioned, transferred digitally, and stored in a database like data, but they definitely have a physical form as well.
Using this knowledge I can at least assume that GFs aren't really Gods, but they are godlike in that they seem to link themselves to certain beings and kind of define their traits, like a zodiac. So to the real point; is Griever an extension of Squall's mind/soul? Did he make Griever up with his wishes and deepest darkest secrets? Uh... probably not. But he might be Squall's 'zodiac creature', at least.

Jodo's probably got a good idea there, though. It's not like we know HOW GFs are made. For all we know, they are like Aeons, and Griever is like Squall's berserkified future self after he's died.

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Originally Posted by Black Magic Shopkeeper

I mean, this actually includes Moombas, MiniMog, Chocobos and GILGAMESH.

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Well, they are not really the same kind of GF, especially Gilgamesh. Gilgamesh is just Gilgamesh, multiversally travelling through the rift to collect swords (Final Fantasy XII, where it was introduced that he wanders through dimensions) until he dies by sacrificing himself (Final Fantasy V). He is just a gag character who has a connection to the multiverse.

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Originally Posted by Sephiroth

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Originally Posted by Black Magic Shopkeeper

I mean, this actually includes Moombas, MiniMog, Chocobos and GILGAMESH.

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Well, they are not really the same kind of GF, especially Gilgamesh. Gilgamesh is just Gilgamesh, multiversally travelling through the rift to collect swords (Final Fantasy XII, where it was introduced that he wanders through dimensions) until he dies by sacrificing himself (Final Fantasy V). He is just a gag character who has a connection to the multiverse.

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Unless Gilgamesh has reached god-like status. Hmmm.

Griever is a mental embodiment of everything Squall wants to be: brave, strong, powerful. Squall is obsessed with lions, that's why Griever has the shape of one, only much more powerful.

Ultimecia takes the concept of Griever out of Squall's head (let's remember her powers to read & manipulate the minds of people) and grants it "life". If you remember Krysta, it was originally a simple jewel.

I think what she wanted to do was corrupt what Squall held in the highest regard, what he aimed to become and, in a way, what was his way of life. That was a low blow, imo.