This was an interesting thread topic awhile back, so have at it. If Cloud and Zack really fought, who would actually win?
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This was an interesting thread topic awhile back, so have at it. If Cloud and Zack really fought, who would actually win?
Depends on the time. I mean, Cloud was a pathetic piece of trout for most of the time Zack was alive. However, Cloud defeats Sephiroth a couple times, the first one most notable because he's impaled on the smurfing Masamune and just tosses Sephiroth into the mako reactor's depths. At their peak, I would say Cloud. Zack is determined though, and incredibly smart, so I don't think it will be too one sided!
Jiro, I would say his first defeat of Sephiroth doesn't count because Sephiroth is in an extremely weakened state due to having just been pulverized by Zack. Cloud is then given Zack's powers through mako transfusion. However, they both continue to grow, Cloud defeating Sephiroth, and Zack defeating Genesis.
It is hard to say who is stronger. They both grow to immense sizes and gain a terrible power. If we go purely by stats, which I don't advise, then Zack wins out due to his final boss having three times the health of Cloud's on easy mode. If we go by optional bosses, then the victory goes hands down to Zack, who faces the strongest boss in the history of FF, Minerva, an actual goddess. Emerald WEAPON and Ruby WEAPON may be strong, but they aren't nearly that strong. One thing to note is that Cloud defeats Angeal, Sephiroth, and Genesis all on his own, whilst Cloud would not be able to defeat Sephiroth on his own, at least not at the level he should be at in the Northern Crater. I'm not talking about the final attack Cloud does because that doesn't count due to Sephiroth having no strength left and just standing there and taking it.
In terms of what we see in injuries, it is impossible to compare. Zack canonically takes hundreds of bullets including a bunch to the head, and still has the strength to give Cloud the Buster sword. The only injury we see on Cloud is him falling into the lifestream and turning into a vegetable.
In terms of skill with a sword, we know for a fact that Zack can deflect bullets and cut artillery shells in half. We know for a fact that Cloud uses Climbhazzard on Bahamut and succeeds in defeating him.
While they both are very strong, I am giving this victory to Zack.
Advent Children Cloud or the FF VII Cloud?
Cuz the Advent Children Cloud is like beyond level 99 according to the creators? :bigsmile:
The advent Children Cloud is actually weaker I think.
I think they're pretty evenly matched when they're both at their canonical strongest.
So I think if Cloud and Zack had a fight the world would implode.
:cactuar:
It depends what game they're in. In the original game, Zack was extremely weak. One hit from a Nibelheim dragon and he was dead. Cloud was probably the same when the game first started but he got much stronger throughout the game. In Advent Children, Cloud is suddenly extraordinarily powerful. He can jump like a grasshopper (so can most of the rest of the group) and break buildings with his sword. In Crisis Core, Zack was changed from a weak fighter into one that was much better than Cloud. So it depends, really. IMO, Crisis Core Zack would be more powerful than Original Game Cloud (even at the end of the game), while Advent Children Cloud would be more powerful than Crisis Core Zack.
Going by Original FF7 I think that it shows Cloud has eventually moved on past and succeeded Zack. In the compilation everything just seems to be made up on the spur of the moment and it is impossible to compare as they just kind of assigned battle proficiencies willy-nilly across games as they felt was good at the time.
Those memories of cloud being killed by the dragon were completely fabricated. Cloud never saw Zack fight a dragon, he filled in the blanks.
Cloud knows Omnislash, Zack does not! There can be no competition.
Zack knows how to shoot meteors out of his sword. Cloud does not.
Zack can fire peircing energy shots from his hand. Cloud cannot.
Zack can kill Sephiroth class enemies with a single punch. Cloud cannot.
Zack can use jump. Cloud cannot.
Zack can use omnislash.
Such loving devotion does not change the fact that Cloud is clearly superior in every possible way.
Except he is clearly weaker at every turn.
A-ha! The battle is on but his fortress will hold!
Zack's barely a cottage.
Zack is classified as a town destroyer.
Honestly I ignore most of the games outside of FFVII because of the mess they made. The abilities of everyone in FFVII made sense, all the Crisis games just seemed like they started making up bulltrout that made no sense chronologically.
For distraction!
http://fc02.deviantart.net/fs44/i/20...by_NeoOeon.jpg
Zack's hair is a retarded mullet.
Cloud has more ridiculous hair in the original FF7, which in this game seems to signify strength. So probably Cloud.
Where does Cid come in. And Genesis had normalish hair but was stronger than Sephiroth.
Zack couldn't beat Sephiroth. Cloud beat Sephiroth when he was a giant tentacle-angel. Do the math.
Zack did beat Sephiroth, Sephiroth then jumped him. A SEVERELY BEATEN Sephiroth is beaten by Cloud because he can't fly. Zack then procceeds to beat DOZENS of enemies stronger than Sephiroth, and beats Genesis, a man who Angeal was afraid would accidentally destroy himself, Sephiroth, and Genesis, with a single blow, back when he was 20, way before he powered up.
Zack then procceeds to PUNCH GENESIS TO SUBMISSION on his own. While Cloud requires the help of friends to stand a chance.
Oh, Crisis Core. I don't give the flyingest of turds about any of that.Quote:
Originally Posted by Hypoallergenic Cactuar
Then you have no say.Quote:
Originally Posted by ReloadPsiOh, Crisis Core. I don't give the flyingest of turds about any of that.Quote:
Originally Posted by Hypoallergenic Cactuar
Nah, I just think the forums should be re-expanded into the individual games, because as far as I'm concerned they are fan-fiction written by the autistic grandchildren of the pre-merger Enix employees and I loathe the very fact that Square-Enix allowed any of that commercial diarrhoea to make them so much extra money on name recognition.Quote:
Originally Posted by Hypoallergenic CactuarThen you have no say.Quote:
Originally Posted by ReloadPsiOh, Crisis Core. I don't give the flyingest of turds about any of that.Quote:
Originally Posted by Hypoallergenic Cactuar
I liken FF7 to a sullen whore rocking back and forth in a shower sobbing to herself and repeating "dirty... dirty... dirty..." until the drain blocks and she drowns.
Cloud
While Zack had more confidence and believe in himself; Cloud surpisingly managed to just grab Sephiroth's sword and toss him aside like Sephiroth like he was just a useless plaything.
Soooo Cloud.
Btw Crisis Core isn't a game it's a fan-fiction written by a 14 year old girl that watched Advent Children thought that she knew everything about the game while she was listening to J-Pop and then * squeel * thought that it would be AWESOME to add in Gackt and make Zack a super awesome Gary- Stu and make him be "kawaii desu ne teee hee " !
Dooon't forget the Cloud x Zack hints because "Yaoi is sooo haaawwt ! " :roll2
The Cloud everyone likes is actually Zack, or at least how Cloud percieves Zack. Don't knock CC. Unlike DoC and BC it is a solid game, with a terrific story, and a lovable main character.
Yeah, I loved seeing some of my favourite scenes ever to be in any story-driven game I played get partially decanonised just so that Tetsuya Nomura could show the world how much of a hard-on he had for Gackt.
Cloud is Zack about as much as Liquid Snake is Big Boss: both surpassed their predecessors in a big way in terms of being strong or whatever. (Big Boss was taken down by a man with an aerosol can and lighter. Liquid Snake was in a helicopter crash, then trapped in an exploding Metal Gear and then for an encore survived falling off the top of the damn thing, then took several shots to the chest before finally succumbing to a virus specially designed to induce a heart attack, which apparently took a really long time to take effect. I already mentioned the differences in how Cloud and Zack fought Sephiroth, and I am still disregarding the hell out of Nomura's crapstain.)
This is going nowhere, you've got a hardon for Cloud, I've got a hardon for Zack. Perhaps we should just cross blades and see who comes out on top.
I see it more as I've got a hardon for the original product whereas you've got a hardon for fan-fiction that tried to be more than it truly was, in the same fashion that Prometheus was ultimately just a B-movie trying to be more than it was. (Currently topical analogies FTW)
I don't even like Cloud that much either; I'd much rather see Tifa bash both their brains in only for Kefka to step in and put a Light of Judgement up her cleavage.
Crisis Core annoys me and upsets me personally because it messes and destorys the original story and character development that was born throughout the original game. It would be fine if it didn't touch or try and change the original story; but it did and it's terribly annoying.Quote:
Originally Posted by Hypoallergenic Cactuar
Zack is a okay main character; but he's not new or fresh in any way. He's a outgoing nice guy. That would of been cool if it was done way back in 2001 way before Zidane and Tidus but it's not. In fact way before 1994 with Locke Cole.
He also wants to be a hero okay well so does Snow from Final Fantasy 13; yet everybody hates Snow and loves Zack, it doesn't make any sense.
People love the original Cloud. Not the depressive guy we see in Advent Children or the Dissidia game. The Cloud that said " Let's Mosey " ! Before facing Sephiroth. That Cloud. Nobody likes a depressive character that brings your mood down and makes you feel like taking your car out the garage and just driving over the cliff; but SE seems to think that we love it.
EDIT. Laguna Loire ! See another outgoing friendly character that helps others. See Zack isn't original or a bit creative or new or refreshing in the slighest because Locke, Laguna, Zidane did it all before him. So why should Zack get the attention and the praise when somebody like Zidane has shown a kind-heart to a mass murderer Kuja ?
So this is basically a Genwunner vs. a Ilikethemaller arguement?
Well it seems you're more going for the retconned version of the story and characters anyway. The Cloud in Crisis Core and the rest of the compilation, as maybee points out, is basically not the same character, and if you're going to retcon something I like for the sake of earning some more money, damn straight I'm going to treat it like it's non-canon.
And if that's not what you're doing... well then you're asking the same thing as who'd win in a fight between Adam West's Batman and Heath Ledger's Joker. It's a ridiculous comparison because they're from two completely different worlds.
Cloud in the Compilation is an irritating pussy. Zack in the Compilation is a bad-ass.
Cloud in the original game is a bad-ass who awakens from a two-week coma and is fighting Carry Armor and hijacking submarines the same day. Zack in the original game is seen getting curbstopmed by Sephiroth and killed by a Shinra soldier, guys who normal people like Tifa, Barret, hell, even Aeris, smurfing AERIS THE FLOWER GIRL can kill by the dozens with no apparent effort. And it's just one Shinra soldier too seen to be killing him, accompanied by two others. Crisis Core retconned it into a full-on Bolivian army ending. That is not what we were shown; remember Cloud has total clarity of his memories by the time we're shown this scene.
ThisQuote:
Originally Posted by ReloadPsi
This again.Quote:
Originally Posted by ReloadPsi
Cloud Final Fantasy VII " I'm a bit messed up in the head from the experiments that I've been through, but it's all okay; I'm okay to make Sephiroth pay for what he's done "!
Cloud Advent Children " Nooo Kadaj hit me with a sword... I'm going to sulk and whine... I can't help anybody... I'm useless... Sephiroth scares me Mummy " !
Cloud Dissidia " I am............ a emo "
Zack FF VII " Sephiroth is really awesome and I'm his biggest fan " ! " Oh whoops a Nibelhiem Dragon defeated me, but that's okay " !
Zack Crisis Core " I'm a prideful Solider that can fly within the air like firetucking Superman and I can defeat tons of millions of Wutai Soliders within one hit because I might as well be the Final Fantasy version of Jesus ".
And this is just it. The "Cloud was emulating Zack in the original game" argument that I think has been made already doesn't fly at all because after Cloud finds himself, he's still got the same great deal of grit, determination and swagger about him. It's just that now he's taken it and made it his own. Advent Children suggests he just forgot all that. "Welp, saved the world, time to go back to my identity crisis despite my journey to save the world turning out to be about having successfully overcome it." Absolute bollocks. I hate the FF7 spin-offs more than anyone over the age of 25 hates the Star Wars prequels.Quote:
Originally Posted by maybee
[QUOTE=maybee;3129808]I'm actually looking at it as Cloud from 7 and Zack from Crisis Core.Quote:
Originally Posted by ReloadPsi
And no. Zack isn't that way in 7. That is a fabricated memory. Remember, even before he left Neiblhiem Cloud was a huge Sephiroth fan.
And how was Zack Curbstomped? He pulverized Sephiroth who then took him by surprise. Wasn't exactly fair. Cloud only defeated Sephiroth because he could barely walk, much less finish off Cloud.
I'm not saying Cloud is weak, I'm saying he isn't as strong as a man who in his story kills a goddess, defeats the man who could have killed sephiroth with one blow, and makes not one, but three badass flower carts.
Edit: also, I agree that cloud is wonkey in AC. I'm not talking about AC or DoC.
That's... that's not a fabricated memory. The stuff you see in the Lifestream (once Tifa stops cutting in with corrections anyway) is accurate, i.e. Zack runs into the Jenova chamber and comes flying out like a bitch five seconds later. The whole point of that entire section is that by this time Cloud starts telling the truth.
Crisis Core retcons it and so you're still basically comparing Adam West Batman to Heath Ledger Joker. They don't belong together. I'm certainly not going to start playing a game of which retcon I do and don't agree with because I don't do retcon, full stop. Otherwise if you're agreeing with Crisis Core's rewrite of the backstory then you're agreeing with the rest of the Compilation's rewrite of Cloud, who sucks. And my comparison to Star Wars prequels blah-blah-blah you get it. If I must be called a "Genwunner" then fine.
That would go in his favour of having Zack win though :p
What would? I'm presenting two near-opposite scenarios here that have entirely different outcomes :P
Retcon Zack to be awesome(r) and Cloud to be trout(ter)
Quote:
Originally Posted by ReloadPsi
Actually, it is a fabricated memory. When Cloud recounts the Nibelheim events in Kalm, he's not remembering events properly. Yes, he mostly injects himself where Zack should be, but that's not a guarantee that each case is like this. Do you really think that with a truck full of Shinra MPs that only Sephiroth and Zack would have gotten out to face that dragon? Cloud being easily pwned isn't a reflection of Zack's statistics at the time of the Nibel events. It's a reflection of how Cloud honestly saw himself in comparison to Sephiroth. And "five seconds later" is just you misinterpreting the passage of time as represented in the Lifestream. Cloud was not present to see Zack fall and Tifa was unconscious. It could very well have been 15-20 minutes before Cloud arrived... by the way, let's not forget, Cloud only "defeated" Sephiroth because he took him by surprise.Quote:
Originally Posted by ReloadPsi
Sephiroth wasn't defeated really though and he should and most likely would of killed Cloud or a normal person. As mentioned before Cloud grabbed Sephiroth by his sword and tossed him to the lifestream below like he was just a weak toy.Quote:
Originally Posted by ReloadPsi
A normal person would of died via Sephiroth's stabbing. Whether Sephiroth was weak then or not. But Cloud managed to do the impossible and heroically grab Sephiroth' sword and probably defeat him then.
It's why Cloud is such a beloved and iconic character and why he's stronger than Zack. Because he managed to overcome the impossible.
And Cloud was there during the Dragon fight event. The Lifestream event with Tifa shows that Zack was yes indeed a hyperactive Sephiroth fanboy that Sephiroth saw as a kid or rather acted like a child. Cloud was being car-sick while Sephiroth and Zack went outside to face the dragon so Cloud would of witnessed the event. Zack was weak in compassion to Sephiroth, in true Final Fantasy VII official events.
Quote:
Originally Posted by maybeeSephiroth wasn't defeated really though and he should and most likely would of killed Cloud or a normal person. As mentioned before Cloud grabbed Sephiroth by his sword and tossed him to the lifestream below like he was just a weak toy.Quote:
Originally Posted by ReloadPsi
A normal person would of died via Sephiroth's stabbing. Whether Sephiroth was weak then or not. But Cloud managed to do the impossible and heroically grab Sephiroth' sword and probably defeat him then.
It's why Cloud is such a beloved and iconic character and why he's stronger than Zack. Because he managed to overcome the impossible.
And Cloud was there during the Dragon fight event. The Lifestream event with Tifa shows that Zack was yes indeed a hyperactive Sephiroth fanboy that Sephiroth saw as a kid or rather acted like a child. Cloud was being car-sick while Sephiroth and Zack went outside to face the dragon so Cloud would of witnessed the event. Zack was weak in compassion to Sephiroth, in true Final Fantasy VII official events.
99% of that was bulltrout. And I'm not going to explain why.
Explanations make the world go round.
Jiro is a popcorn salesman, don't trust his scheming
Well then if the entire compilation is to be taken into account as well, didn't Cloud take out Sephiroth like three times (once with a sword through his shoulder, once while Sephiroth was a giant tentacle angel - granted with Tifa and Barret also punching him in the cock periodically - and once with huge buildings falling on him) compared to Zack critically wounding the guy once and then letting down his guard?
The whole point of Cloud's arc - if I'm supposed to consider all of that extra stuff - is apparently that he takes on Zack's mantle and surpasses him, almost like Luke Skywalker surpasses his father's resolve to deliver the galaxy from evil; Solid Snake surpasses Big Boss' desire to carry out The Boss' desire rid the world of its hidden controllers; and so on. If Cloud failed in that then there would ultimately be no point to the story. (And if you think he failed then it validates everything I say about the compilation being pointless cash-ins :p )
Basically on my final count:
Beginning of overall story: Zack > Cloud - Cloud's arc hasn't come into yet and Zack is a Jenovically modified beast.
Conclusion of overall story: Zack < Cloud - Cloud's arc is complete, he's defeated Sephiroth three times among other things.
Quote:
Originally Posted by maybee
Sorry I'll fix it for you.Quote:
Originally Posted by ReloadPsi
Sephiroth wasn't defeated really though and he should and most likely would of killed Cloud or a normal person. As mentioned before Cloud IS A WEAK PUSSY AND ZACK IS AWESOME
A normal person would of died via Sephiroth's stabbing. Whether Sephiroth was weak then or not. But Cloud IS A WEAK PUSSY AND ZACK IS AWESOME .
It's why ZACK is such a beloved and iconic character and why he's stronger than PUSSY CLOUD . Because he managed to overcome the impossible.
And Cloud was there BEING UNCOOL UNLIKE ZACK during the Dragon fight event. The Lifestream event with Tifa shows that Zack IS THE BEST FF HERO EVER MADE Cloud was being A WEAK PUSSY and Zack went outside to face the dragon WITH HIS AWESOME- SAUCE MOVES so Cloud would of witnessed the event. Zack IS EPIC in compassion to Sephiroth, in true Final Fantasy VII official events
Happy now :rolleyes:
You were doing so well until you said "would of" and then I lost all respect for your argument :greenie:
Also could people please start crediting the correct people in their quotes?
Indeed, how difficult is it really to hit the quote button?
EPIC!Quote:
Originally Posted by Jiro
Let's go ahead and discount the fact that Cloud's friends lend a hand in all his battles (Zack meets a lot of people and their emotional impact on him grants him his strength and powers as shown by the DMW), the fact that Cloud "defeated" Sephiroth in human form and then destroyed his Bizarre and Safer forms is still equalled by Zack's multiple battles with Genesis who, despite being a whiny bitch, is still a powerful badass. Even if we consider Cloud's solo battles versus Bahamut Sin (realistically, if you're paying attention, you notice the other party members are doing trout), and Kadaj-Sephiroth... Cloud is still the country bumpkin who upon approach to the final battle in the game said, "Let's mosey."
Cloud has that for one of his limit breaks.Quote:
Originally Posted by Hypoallergenic Cactuar
In fact I believe it is called Meteorain. As in, meteor rain.
Let's Mosey has to be one of the best quotes to say in a dramatic situation. It comically underpins the fact that he nonchalantly waltzes into battle with either a) complete certainty of victory; or b) complete and utter ignorance of the challenges about to be faced.
Sounded more to me like he was showing his first signs of solemn resignation to a fate he can't no longer control. IMO it underpins what's to become of him in future compilation titles where he's a mopey douche. :eek:
I find this thread highly entertaining :p.
I'll say Cloud, primarily because like many others, I tend to ignore the extended Universe
(despite actually liking Crisis Core as a whole, I can't say I was a fan of any plot thread pertaining to Project Gillian).
cloud is probably stronger but zack is way cooler
When Prof. Hojo use Jack and Cloud for the Jenova experimentation, did that have anything to do with indicating who was stronger from the reaction of their bodies to the injected cells?
backed by his team and all his materia, cloud, by himself without help, zack, we never see him "early" but we do see how low cloud was.
These days it wouldn't be Meterorain...it would be Emorain...Quote:
Originally Posted by Jiro
Poor Cloud Squarenix has completely destroyed your character...
I don't really consider anything outside of the original game to be canon. Weiss, Angeal and Genesis are never mentioned once during the main game. They aren't even hinted at. That being said, I think the number of Shinra that killed Zack in the flashback was more about graphic limitations than anything else. In the end I think Cloud overcame Zack and Sephiroth.
I'll never get the Zack love. Cloud in VII was the most fascinating and unique main character in the entire series.
Zack was just Zidane or Tidus or any number of other happy go-lucky heroes.
Cloud had neither his team nor his Materia when he first defeated Sephiroth, displaying a strength even Zack did not have, which was what drew Hojo to him for experimentation.Quote:
Originally Posted by Tsuris
This so much. Zidane was risked his own life twice to save Amarant and then later Kuja and both of them treated him like trout. Where's the Zidane love ?Quote:
Originally Posted by Forsaken Lover
I think most of the Zack love comes from the Final Fantasy newbies that have started with KH or have just played Crisis Core and won't touch the original because of the downgrade in graphics.
i have to go with choosing Zack, cuz....there's just no beating all that unnatural energy that he got :D
But honestly, if they had a match, it would probably end up as a tie, cuz none would be taking it too seriously, and would end up goofing around and forget why they even started fighting in the first place
Nowadays Cloud's strength is like comparable to Zack's. With his Hero-Strength Increase-Bonus he is above Zack.
And Cloud's character was not destroyed. His "doubts" are always shown in Final Fantasy VII. Cloud does doubt himself even after getting back his true memories. He is only brave when it comes to protecting what is precious to him. And that is what the end of the story shows when the characters leave the Highwind.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Hypoallergenic Chie
No, he didn't do anything. Nothing in the game state that.
Yeah, the real Cloud died when Kingdom Hearts was released. Advent Children made it worse. smurfing Steve Burton and his Dissida Cloud was awful.Quote:
Originally Posted by maybeeThese days it wouldn't be Meterorain...it would be Emorain...Quote:
Originally Posted by Jiro
Poor Cloud Squarenix has completely destroyed your character...
Anyhow, I always thought that, in the end, it depends on what game left a heavier impact on you. Crisis Core of FF7. I know someone who, for some reason, played Crisis Core first, which is fine. Thought he bitched way to hard about the end and how it was continued in FF7 xD "Where am I gonna get FF7? Wal Mart?!" Poor guy... But yeah he preffered Zack to Cloud tenfold. While someone like me, who played FF7 first, loved Cloud and found him to be really interesting.
My personal opinion is undecided. I liked them both and they both left an impact on me. Though I felt Cloud was pretty cool in Crisis Core, don't ask why.
Cloud has a lot more depth because there's a lot more time and space allowed in FFVII for his character to develop but that's got nothing to do with whether he's stronger than Zack or not.
Yes !Quote:
Originally Posted by Red Mage Coffman
Cloud Crisis Core is awesome. Maybe because he though he doesn't believe in himself he still tries. He's inspirational and he's a nice guy. :)