Printable View
Probably not, but I'll do it anyway!
I payed the money on PSN for this, but have been sitting on it for a few months. Finally, I shall embark on the quest of Xenogears!
I'm going into this expecting slightly dated gameplay, and given when it came out I'm kind of expected a fairly spotty script as well.
Though it gets enough love, and while Wolf has some bizarre tastes sometimes, he is mostly trustworthy on whats a good game. So, Xeno shall begin now!
Do you mean the Square Enix Forum?
Xenogears is a great game. Keep in mind that it is a very long game. It has been noted for being a little slow at the beginning, but there are plenty of gameplay and story segues to keep you interested even if you might be a little confused.
Long RPG's are my preference, and I can deal with a slow beginning so long as it has promise.
However, this game opens up with a guy who looks like a balding dwarf midged (Dan, I know he's a child, but I see him as a midget :P) trying to get me to smurf his sister, and delivers the freakishly awkward line "And this is just between you and me, but she's well endowed too! Heh heh heh". The laugh makes this scene extra awkward.
I, however, shut down his crazy plan. Cause even if we take him as a child over a midget, that pitch about his sister stil creeps the smurf out of me.
Edit: And the local barskank wants my penis.
This already sounds like the less creepy option then going along with Dan.
Well you're already in it, but I'll echo the slow beginning, just enjoy the classic RPG atmosphere and stick with it for a while, it will be worth it.
As far as script, I think it was one of the best localized games from that era, nowhere near the awkwardness or just plain errors of FFVII.
If you have a PSP you might want to transfer saves and play there every now and then, because while the PS3 has issues displaying older games, even on the TV's they were originally made for, these PSOne Classics look amazing on PSP, as if they were just released for it in fact.
I just got to the point the first town is pretty much leveled.
And I can't bring myself to care.
The only character you really grow to like is Doc Uzuki. You know he loves that one chick, but really only because the game pretty much flat out tells you. You don't really feel a connection between the two in the slightest.
It does, however, work as an event ot get the plot moving. So while it's not really impactful at all, It's not really wasted per say.
The translation is semi-good. It doesn't have awkward dialogue but a ton of the religious terminology got butchered in translations so I would suggest looking up some words if the reference stumps you.
The beginning is slow but not as bad as some other games I can think of (Persona series comes to mind, as well as the Wild ARMS series) course it isn't as bad as Xenosaga Episode 1...
The gameplay is dated but you'll be familiar with it since it's a mix of Chrono Cross and Xenosaga Episode 1. I highly recommend learning all the deathblows because they are fun and make the Gear battles more interesting. Did you meet up with Lucca in Lahan?
I don't recall the name Lucca, so probably not. :p
I just got to the first town after the forest. I found out that one shop doesn't have Military grade gears, and am looking for info to find them.
Big Joe amused me when I saw him at the bar. :p
I do have a couple problems with the game. The biggest one being some of the more dramatic type scenes have felt like they just kind of happened.
The town getting destroyed leaves me with little to no impact. I had no time to care about any of these people, and really only know that they are sexist and tie their women down. Not doing a lot to make me care here game. :p
And the scene when you first meat Elly is kind of awkward. 'I will kill all you sheep on sight! How do I get out of here!'. They get their whole calling Lei a coward scene, but it comes from this person I know nothing about, and moments later you realize she was just being a coward by calling him a coward. All of this just kind of happened, yet I have not been given any reason to care about Elly or her plight and motivations.
Now none of these scenes are bad, mind you, just a little head scratching in presentation. The game makes up for it with keeping you interested in the plot going on, even though little has happened, and with Citan. This guy is awesome. His dialogue has been noticably better then anyone else, and I am very interested in his past and why he knows so much.
The other is the Deathblows. I like them in principle, it's learning them. I don't really understand the how they are building up the ranks to 100 to learn it. I know you need to be a certain level, but how do you build ranks? You can do it without typing in the exact command, since I had ranks built up in it. Yet it was a 5ap move, and I only had 4 available at the time. o_O
This is the only thing I am using a guide for though, since I am the guy who will sit down and do every last button combination to figure out what will raise me. This just saves me extra grinding, though I'm a grind whore anyway, as Lei is already 11, and Citan 10. :p
I really dig the in battle animations too. While those couple problems bother me, I'm already enjoying myself quite a bit for having done so little.
I want to say I've disliked the gear battles I've done, but I want to reserve judgement until I get further in. :p
Ah, that was one of the cool Easter eggs in Lahan (among many things), you could talk to Lucca from Chrono Trigger which is where I felt she actually went instead of getting taken out by a chump like Lynx in CC.Quote:
Originally Posted by Uncle Big Hands
It's mostly designed to make you interested in the characters not empathetic, I think the shock of destroying your home town is just that, the initial shock of actually being responsible for something that bad guys in these types of games usually do. I like how the game puts that trope on it's side.Quote:
I do have a couple problems with the game. The biggest one being some of the more dramatic type scenes have felt like they just kind of happened.
The town getting destroyed leaves me with little to no impact. I had no time to care about any of these people, and really only know that they are sexist and tie their women down. Not doing a lot to make me care here game. :p
And the scene when you first meat Elly is kind of awkward. 'I will kill all you sheep on sight! How do I get out of here!'. They get their whole calling Lei a coward scene, but it comes from this person I know nothing about, and moments later you realize she was just being a coward by calling him a coward. All of this just kind of happened, yet I have not been given any reason to care about Elly or her plight and motivations.
Now none of these scenes are bad, mind you, just a little head scratching in presentation. The game makes up for it with keeping you interested in the plot going on, even though little has happened, and with Citan. This guy is awesome. His dialogue has been noticably better then anyone else, and I am very interested in his past and why he knows so much.
Elly's situation is really more for getting you wondering about her, this setup pulls through later when you really begin to explore her backstory.
Citan... could be selling Dos Equis in the Xeno world...
There is no specific science for raising them to 100%, the usual strategy is to alternate between doing the Deathblow you are trying to unlock, do the deathblow that comes before (if applicable) and doing the deathblow that comes after it. Any of them raise the levels, though I have a feeling doing any of the proper deathblows will raise them regardless where they fall in line on the deathblow list.Quote:
The other is the Deathblows. I like them in principle, it's learning them. I don't really understand the how they are building up the ranks to 100 to learn it. I know you need to be a certain level, but how do you build ranks? You can do it without typing in the exact command, since I had ranks built up in it. Yet it was a 5ap move, and I only had 4 available at the time. o_O
This is the only thing I am using a guide for though, since I am the guy who will sit down and do every last button combination to figure out what will raise me. This just saves me extra grinding, though I'm a grind whore anyway, as Lei is already 11, and Citan 10. :p
They get more interesting once you start getting more deathblows and actually doing the Gear dungeons.Quote:
I want to say I've disliked the gear battles I've done, but I want to reserve judgement until I get further in. :p
Okay, so Citan goes off to get the gear parts in the sand buggy.
You decide to chase off after him, mug a helpless man in the middle of the desert to steal his bike, and get caught by Aveh.
Citan, being the bad ass he is, shows up in your gear to save your ass. You, in your quest to save him, have attracted more enemies.
God Fei must feel like a complete dumbass right now.
:p
have fun with calamity bro :aimsun:
To be fair, Fei might be the most cursed video game character. He is pretty much a magnet for trouble.Quote:
Originally Posted by Uncle Big Hands
Currently I'm under the desert with Bart.
So my party members thus far have been Fei, Citan, Elyham... and Bart? Where the smurf did that name come from?
And to be unfair, that was solely his own stupidity that caused that particular event. ;p
The beginning is a little rushed, the game gets better at build-up as it goes on, IMO.
Gear battles aren't that great, but I don't like either of the combat modes in this game, so that's just me.
Protip: there's going to be a couple segments in these early hours that will be hard to get beyond if you don't have proper gear equipment and recovery items. Flying Arrow tried playing this game last year and literally got stuck with no earlier save to fall back on.
You've been warned.
Gears is the only thing that i really liked about Xenogears, what is your problem with Gear battles?Quote:
Originally Posted by Bolivar
That's pretty much Bart's role in this game, to cause trouble for everyone, he's also one of the best sources of comic relief in the game. His name is also short for Bartholomew which is a little more par the course for the cast's names. I mean Fei's name is also pretty common in China. Course Bart is also most likely a play on the infamous Black Bart, the terror of the Caribbean Sea. Don't worry, the game will make sure to hit the full gambit of names from around the world.Quote:
Originally Posted by Uncle Big Hands
Fun facts:
Fei Fong Wong is named after a real life person, martial arts master Wong Fei-hung
Citan Uzuki's name has two meaning. Uzuki is an archaic Japanese word for the month of April; while Citan is either a reference to the type of wood used for bonsai, or an Arabic word for demon. Both are pretty fitting.
Elyham Van Houten's first name is part of the Jewish word for Life
Bartholomew Fatima's last name is a reference to the village in Portugal where the Virgin Mary appeared in the heavens above the town in 1917 C.E. and told three children prophecies of the future which became known as the Three Secrets of the Fatima in Catholic Lore
Aside from the obvious romp through the sewers and that one boss battle on the bridge, I can't think of anything else that requires lots of advanced preparation for disc one. Hoarding cash for Ether Doublers and Holy Pendants is a whole other story though.Quote:
Originally Posted by Bolivar
Incidentally, the last name is shared with a character from The Simpsons, Millhouse Van Houten.Quote:
Originally Posted by Wolf Kanno
http://24.media.tumblr.com/tumblr_m8...tjn5o1_500.png
Elhaym is cooler than Milhouse though.
Not sure what bridge battle you're referring to but I know (SPOILER) the first battle with Elly and her boys is where Flying Arrow got stuck and the fight with Cataclysm might have had this issue, too. Then there's also that one (SPOILER)Grahf battle on that big aircraft you escape on, maybe although I'm not sure...Quote:
Originally Posted by JowyAside from the obvious romp through the sewers and that one boss battle on the bridge, I can't think of anything else that requires lots of advanced preparation for disc one. Hoarding cash for Ether Doublers and Holy Pendants is a whole other story though.Quote:
Originally Posted by Bolivar
The second spoiler battle you mentioned is not a real boss battle, you can lose that fight and the story will continue. Of the four times you face that character, only two of the battles are actual boss fights that you need to win, and the last of those fights with that character is practically a gimme considering what happens in the plot. Despite that, it's possible to win all four fights if you know what you are doing.
Wait, Evolution as taught by the 'Ethos' is wrong, and he believes the Myths and Legends to be true? A near Identicle story to paradise? God went to sleep in the water after creating man?
...Is this story leading to the Christian God being Cthullu?
Edit: Don't answer thatn, and I appreciate the Spoilers. :p
It's complicated. If there was one statement that could be the default answer to almost any question you could have about Xenogears, I feel it's this one. It also works for Kingdom Hearts and the Compilation of FFVII. :D
Part of me still hopes that it turns out the Christian God is Cthullu though. :p
Edit: After I realized what Boost Did, Calamity wasnt' really an issue. Currently level 20 with Fei, 18 with bart, and I'm about to leave the caves.
Edit 2: This marks the second 'you're a coward' followed by 'I'm actually the coward for calling you a coward' moment in the game. This game really likes to mix good plot build up with some head scratching moments.
i was referring to the altercation with big red on your way back from zeboim
Welp, Mechnomancer for Borderlands 2 is out, so it migth be a bit before I get back to this. :p
It's all right. The game isn't that important anyway.
Here let me just spoil the game for you.
You met Grahf but he isn't really Grahf. He's better known as Grahf, Seeker of Darknes, and he's impersonating the real Grahf who is a good guy.
Convinienlty I am able to ignore Forsakens post, to avoid things getting spoiled! :monster:
Anyway, I'm signed up for the tournament to create a distraction to save that one chick.
I am grinding outside right now, making sure I know all my Deathblows Pre-tournament, and jesus smurfing christ.
In every possible way, Citan outclasses Fei.
Better Stats, his Deathblows look way more bad ass (Mufu being my favorite thus far, he's level 20 and knows the first 3), and he's the most interesting character to this point in the game.
I also love how when you hear of the tournament he basically goes, 'You know, there is no way the people here are going to put on a fight thats worth a damn. Fei, join the tournament and give these people something to watch.'
Mind you, he has not seen ANY of the contestants yet. :p
My advice for the tournament... make a second save slot. There is a cool item for that point in the game, but it requires to do something very counter-intuitive and I almost feel the designers were sadistic for doing this to the player.
Little late now, though I'm not going to be to sad if I miss something. :p
I imagine it's taking a smurf ton of rounds in the tournament ot get Bart more time, in order to find the Item in the Fish tank, am I right? :p
And I am currently fighting Dan in the tournament.
...How the smurf did this guy make it to the semi-finals?
He's less threatening then Big Joes fans (I was kind of sad for beating Big Joe though. :( )
I would like ot point out how funny it was Dan hit 'For Lahan' and 'For Timothy' but missed when he cried 'For my Sister'. :p
Edit: A few more thoughts on my current Position.
Citan, still being awesome. I got the explanation for who Citan and Sigurd were, though I'm confident Citan knows more then even Sigurd does. Honestly I think he's more in the know then Ramsus.
I really enjoyed the planning session as well.
Though I did twitch a little at the whole pre-arranged marraige bit for Bart and Margie. I will never understand the cousin marriage thing. o_O
Edit2: : Just faught doped up Elly, and all I can say is.... WHat?
Fei: There is no reason for us to fight.
...Yes there is? She's an officer of the people you are actively trying to defeat. You know, unless I missed something crucial, I think that is a pretty damn good reason to be fighting.
Don't get me wrong, I understand why they wouldn't want to fight, but that line was smurfing dumb.
Not as dumb as the Balding dwarf making it to the semi-finals mind you, but still pretty dumb.
Edit2: And for the love of god, can we stop having the 'I broke his cup, something awful will happen!' moments in all forms of mediums? We have had more then enough reason to think something bad will happen to Bart, we did not need the overused and, quite frankly, stupid clique of the breaking cup.
Edit3:
Okay, I am getting all the stupid I'm seeing out right now.
1) How the smurf did he see her face from his Mech? For that matter, why were the even communicating? Are all gears, for some reason, always connected?
2) The old man just hopped right in without nobody noticing? And he just hops right back out? How have the rebels been having so many issues? These people are terribly unprepared, even considering they had an ambush set.
3) The Solarian litterally just said this guy was a puppet and they were using him, directly to his face, with no qualms of hiding it? They even told him they would use anyone else who would blindly listen to them? God this person is an idiot.
4) Vanderkaum is a complete and total idiot. This guy shouldn't even be allowed to be a foot soldier, yet he is operating a massive warship. He litterally chose, for no reason, to not use anti-gear weaponry, when they are fighting a small group of gears. Instead he uses a giant gun which he was JUST TOLD cannot accurately hit such small targets?
There is brash and headstrong, and then there is full blown retarded.
5) On that note, Fei's plan was smurfing stupid. "Hey, lets assault the vastly superior force head on! No need to make a real plan!"
Mind you, had he known his oponent was stupid as smurf, perhaps he wouldn't seem like such an idiot. Mind you he doesn't, so Fei continues ot show himself the least interesting and competent member of my part. Mind you one of those people is Citan, so of course he is better. But on the other hand one of those people was Bart.
6) Do not tell a person you are both seeking power and offering them power in the same breath. You just look like a crazy person.
7) This guy seems far less threatening when his plan is to give power to Vanderkaum, a guy who doesn't have a clue what to do with power he has.
8) Dropping a Warship on me is cheatting.... That's really the line you are going with? Arnold Schwartzinager would be ashamed of that one.
Well the trick is not to fight Dan. If you choose to defend the whole round (Think Paladin's initiation battle) you get Alice's Wedding Dress when you win by breaking his spirit, which is a decent piece of armor for that point of the game. The challenge is trying to resist the urge to punch the dwarf in the face and that temptation is often too hard... Getting the treasure in the fish tank is also a bonus but you can theoretically get it later towards the end of Disc 1. Aveh is not going to be available for awhile if you haven't guessed that yet.Quote:
Originally Posted by Uncle Big Hands
It's old school aristocracy, it happened a lot in the past, just get over it. :pQuote:
Though I did twitch a little at the whole pre-arranged marriage bit for Bart and Margie. I will never understand the cousin marriage thing. o_O
Fei is just trying to appeal to their past encounters where they helped each other. Remember, he's the atypical pacifist main character in a giant robot story. He's Amuro Ray, except Fei knows Kung-Fu and has some pretty messed up problems...Quote:
Edit2: : Just faught doped up Elly, and all I can say is.... WHat?
Fei: There is no reason for us to fight.
...Yes there is? She's an officer of the people you are actively trying to defeat. You know, unless I missed something crucial, I think that is a pretty damn good reason to be fighting.
Don't get me wrong, I understand why they wouldn't want to fight, but that line was smurfing dumb.
Citan did say none of the local fighters would make a good fight which is why he volunteered Fei to enter the tournament. I wouldn't be surprised if he pulled some strings to get Dan into the tournament as well just to screw with Fei.Quote:
Not as dumb as the Balding dwarf making it to the semi-finals mind you, but still pretty dumb.
It's an overused trope, I agree.Quote:
Edit2: And for the love of god, can we stop having the 'I broke his cup, something awful will happen!' moments in all forms of mediums? We have had more then enough reason to think something bad will happen to Bart, we did not need the overused and, quite frankly, stupid clique of the breaking cup.
I'll play apologist and explain away for you.Quote:
Okay, I am getting all the stupid I'm seeing out right now
Welltall's communication line was originally set up by Elly so he most likely still has the radio codes for the Gebler line still installed in the Gears memory. He was also trying to talk her out of fighting.Quote:
1) How the smurf did he see her face from his Mech? For that matter, why were the even communicating? Are all gears, for some reason, always connected?
Most likely because the spider mech Maison pilots is too small to be detected by radar. Shakain also most likely assumed there wouldn't be a frontal assault of any kind, especially since he knew Ramsus' forces would route most of the enemy so it's possible the city defenses were lower than normal.Quote:
2) The old man just hopped right in without nobody noticing? And he just hops right back out? How have the rebels been having so many issues? These people are terribly unprepared, even considering they had an ambush set.
Honestly, I find it terrifying that they could openly state the obvious and know there won't be any real repercussions cause that's how much the puppet is under their thumb.Quote:
3) The Solarian literally just said this guy was a puppet and they were using him, directly to his face, with no qualms of hiding it? They even told him they would use anyone else who would blindly listen to them? God this person is an idiot.
No, this is just him being stubborn, as Citan and Sigurd explained in the briefing. Vanderkaum is old school and just won't accept that his old methods won't work. He purposely chose to not use the proper tools cause he wanted to prove that his old methods were just as effective. His plans of course go terribly wrong for him. This is your classic story about the hubris of pride. Course the Vanderkaum in Xenosaga wasn't exactly any better...Quote:
4) Vanderkaum is a complete and total idiot. This guy shouldn't even be allowed to be a foot soldier, yet he is operating a massive warship. He literally chose, for no reason, to not use anti-gear weaponry, when they are fighting a small group of gears. Instead he uses a giant gun which he was JUST TOLD cannot accurately hit such small targets?
There is brash and headstrong, and then there is full blown retarded.
Not true, Fei was briefed before about how Vanderkaum thought and that's why they sent a smaller force of Gears to deal with him cause Citan and Sigurd were pretty sure Vanderkaum would screw things up for himself, so he did kind of know he was up against and idiot. Routing him came as a surprise as well. So Fei's plans wasn't completely reckless and the point of their mission was to cause alarm, not win, so head on wasn't really too bad of a strategy, especially if the vastly superior force thinks their strength makes them think a frontal assault is unlikely. Fei is also most likely letting Bart rub off on him and Fei lucked out that Bart's good luck came with it as well.Quote:
5) On that note, Fei's plan was smurfing stupid. "Hey, lets assault the vastly superior force head on! No need to make a real plan!"
Mind you, had he known his opponent was stupid as smurf, perhaps he wouldn't seem like such an idiot. Mind you he doesn't, so Fei continues to show himself the least interesting and competent member of my part. Mind you one of those people is Citan, so of course he is better. But on the other hand one of those people was Bart.
Grahf wants to kill god, I think he is driving the crazy train at this point so he can say whatever the hell he wants. :pQuote:
6) Do not tell a person you are both seeking power and offering them power in the same breath. You just look like a crazy person.
Yet Vanderkaum is still able to use the power to retake the battle and earn himself a Pyrrhic victory. The fact Grahf's influence could help a sorry case like Vanderkaum save a little face is pretty scary if you ask me.Quote:
7) This guy seems far less threatening when his plan is to give power to Vanderkaum, a guy who doesn't have a clue what to do with power he has.
I love that line and that is still one of my favorite scenes in the game. I love the Red Gear. :DQuote:
8) Dropping a Warship on me is cheating.... That's really the line you are going with? Arnold Schwarzenegger would be ashamed of that one.
I refuse to except your Vanderkaum explanation. He is on a vastly different level of stupid then simple Stubbornness.
And Fei is WAY to assuming to think his foe would be that stupid. No way the previous meeting indicated the extent that Vanderkaum actually was. That was easily one of the dumbest villains I have ever seen. Yet somehow they have trusted him with a fleet.
This does not make the Solarians seem competent. Why does this guy have a fleet?
In response to the openly stating it, I have the same issue with that as Vanderkaum. They took it to far.
What happened there was akin to the following conversation.
Dude: Hey, thank you for pointing out that dollar on the ground for me.
Other dude: When you bend over to pick that up I will sodomize you.
Dude: I don't want the dollar anymore.
Other dude: Pick it up.
Dude: Alright. :(
As for the rescue of Bart, I know they were unprepared for a frontal assault, but that was hardly an assault. A guy, literaly, jumped in, grabbed them, and jumped out. It was a terribly unclimactic resolution to a huge turning point. Their feint had failed, and trout was going wrong. This was a great set up, until that.
Really the rest are just nit picks. The problem was there was a lot wrong with this brief stretch. :p
Well, except the line. I admit it was funny, but that was an ill placed line for that scene. trouts going horribly wrong, doom seems at hand, and that's the line we get? It's a real tension killer.
I'm not much farther, I just lost the fight to Rico in jail. I'm digging the role Kislev seems to be playing. I'm liking their king.
Edit: Okay, I love this little bit.
Fei: What data could they obtain from it and I?
Citan: I wouldn't know.
...Wouldn't' know my ass. :p
I love you Citan. Never change. <3
Wait until you get to Disc 2. Citan's deathblows are going to be a lot more impressive.
I think I realize one of the reasons Wolf said he wasn't even broken yet. He's starting to, fairly regularly, take 2 turns to each of Fei's turns. And the guy is hitting about as hard as Rico per hit.
I'm in the sewers right now. I just got the keys to the sewage plant, and I'm wondering if I should grind Rico and Citan up to 30 before then though, so that I have their next Deathblows. Especially since Citan has a 100 rating on the next three, so I just need to get to the levels for him. :p
Also, smurf Mullets. That was the second time I've been killed was fighting 4 of those frog things and 2 fish called Mullets. I decided to stop smurfing around and building Rico's Deathblows (Since he's not high enough level for the ones I'm working on anyway), and just monkey stomp them from here on out. :p
Xenogears' sewer is probably the worst dungeon/boss combination on the entirety of disc one.
Ah the D Block Sewers... I wouldn't call it the worst dungeon in Disc 1, nothing and I mean nothing will escape the horror that is Babel Tower... *jump* *enter random encounter mid-jump cause of shoddy programming* *win fight* *fall like a rock and restart* so yeah... a sewer dungeon that gets you easily turned around isn't so bad in hindsight.
I got through Babel Tower without any problems my first time through. The controller almost went out the window during subsequent playthroughs though.
I don't know if 37 was to high, but I kicked that bosses ass. :p
The level was a bit easy to get lost in, but not so bad really.
Edit: ANd finally no more of that stupid battling. I hated those so much.
I like the battling, especially since later you can unlock it as a mini-game and pilot most of the games Gears and a few monsters. If you get a second controller you can do two player versus.
Yeah, I'll just play a real fighting game rather then Battling thank you. :p
Regardless, I'm off to bust out Rico and get my Gear back.
It seems that Citan is still in contact with the Emperor of Solaris. Though I'm wondering how on the Emperor's side Citan is. I mean he clearly doesn't agree with the Council of Elders, wanting to purge you and all, but I'm wondering about the Emperors stance on all this.
The second interaction wiht The Wise Man was pretty cool as well. At first I thought he may be Gharf, do to Gharf and the blue haired chicks interaction. Where she mentioned him fighting you in the tournament when they spoke.
I don't know if that was just an odd translation, or if perhaps there is just something I missed or ahsn't been revealed. Well, onward to find out!
NIGHT PURGE!
that's my favourite part of the game.
The Purge was pretty fun, though really I'm kind of depressed I kicked all those guys asses again.
I feel kind of bad for them at this point. Regardless, grinding Elly to learn all her Deathblows before breaking into the Goliath Factory!
I didn't think Redrum was too hard either. The sewer level was a nightmare however.
Xenogears has mostly lackluster dungeons but the sewers were just awful.
And I felt no pity for the Gabler Goobers. This was the third frickin' time you had to do a boss rush with these jack-offs and it was time they learned their place as mooks.
Elly had a nice dramatic character moment there at the end of the Purge. You learn a lot about her character and personality.
Namely that she likes dem bad boys. Nothing like devil wings to turn a girl on.
Seriously though Grahf is very enigmatic and that sequence should be remembered.
I think Xenogears' weakest part about its storytelling, especially early on, is that it takes the player's suspension of disbelief for granted. It has Dan as a tournament semi-finalist. Its early villains are painfully 16-bit in a 32-bit game. But if you like the mystery surrounding The Emperor and the Council of Elders and Wise Man then you are definitely going to like the rest of the game and where the story is going to take you.
The Kaiser is really awesome, but unfortunately, he didn't get completely fleshed out, at least not as much as I think the developers intended, as a result of budget constraints.
I'm not sure if the sewer is the weakest dungeon in the game... but it's pretty representative that dungeon design is one of the checkboxes they missed when it comes to making a great RPG. Unlike the story, I can't promise that it's going to get any better, if anything it's probably going to bother you more when you're 30, 40, 50 hours into this game and it seems like they put progressively less effort into it.
And yes, the Purge is one of the best scenes in the game.
You know, Gharf became immidiately less threatening.
Attacks me on airship, is shocked when Citan shakes him off...
Somehow, he thinks he is capable of using you to destroy god, and you delay his plans by making a sharp right?
You seem to be ignoring the fact he kicked the crap out of your party while they were in Gears and he was on foot. He may have godlike destructive powers but he really can't fly. :p
You seem to be ignoring the fact not 2 minutes later Bart succeeded in shooting me down.Quote:
Originally Posted by Wolf Kanno
Just run that through your head. Bart succeeded where Gharf had failed. :p
And actually his gear was flying.
That is until he got shot down by Hammer.
Really, lets go down the list if things Gharf has done thus far.
1) Already spilled his plan to you.
2) Spouts nonsense like the seeker of power line.
3) Picks the stupidest person I have ever seen in a gave to give power too.
4) Defeated by the combination of a hard Right turn and Hammer.
5) Failed where Bart had succeeded.
Sorry man, but I'm not seeing a very solid track record here.
Edit: Oh god, the scene with Fei and Elly on the boat. This is one of the sappeist things I hav eseen in years. :p
You seem to be under the impression he wanted the ship shot down.Quote:
Originally Posted by Uncle Big HandsYou seem to be ignoring the fact not 2 minutes later Bart succeeded in shooting me down. Just run that through your head. Bart succeeded where Grahf had failed. :pQuote:
Originally Posted by Wolf Kanno
Your assumptions are so adorable. You are really missing the point in all of this which is why those plot twists later are going to be really interesting for you. I will say this, Grahf gave you the basic idea of his plan, he hasn't really told you what his plan fully entails.Quote:
Really, lets go down the list if things Grahf has done thus far.
1) Already spilled his plan to you.
2) Spouts nonsense like the seeker of power line.
3) Picks the stupidest person I have ever seen in a gave to give power too.
4) Defeated by the combination of a hard Right turn and Hammer.
5) Failed where Bart had succeeded.
Sorry man, but I'm not seeing a very solid track record here.
Secondly, getting thrown from a ship and then shot down by it's big guns (which largely just stunned him) is a pretty valid reason for your party to get away. Your big mistake here is that you are assuming he was there to shoot you down and that he should be more adamant about stopping you when in reality he was there for something else.
Not true, you played through BoF2 last year. :p Welcome back to the 90s.Quote:
Edit: Oh god, the scene with Fei and Elly on the boat. This is one of the sappeist things I have seen in years. :p
I assume he wanted the ship brought down because he said he wanted it brought down.Quote:
Originally Posted by Wolf KannoYou seem to be under the impression he wanted the ship shot down.Quote:
Originally Posted by Uncle Big HandsYou seem to be ignoring the fact not 2 minutes later Bart succeeded in shooting me down. Just run that through your head. Bart succeeded where Grahf had failed. :pQuote:
Originally Posted by Wolf Kanno
Your assumptions are so adorable. You are really missing the point in all of this which is why those plot twists later are going to be really interesting for you. I will say this, Grahf gave you the basic idea of his plan, he hasn't really told you what his plan fully entails.Quote:
Really, lets go down the list if things Grahf has done thus far.
1) Already spilled his plan to you.
2) Spouts nonsense like the seeker of power line.
3) Picks the stupidest person I have ever seen in a gave to give power too.
4) Defeated by the combination of a hard Right turn and Hammer.
5) Failed where Bart had succeeded.
Sorry man, but I'm not seeing a very solid track record here.
Secondly, getting thrown from a ship and then shot down by it's big guns (which largely just stunned him) is a pretty valid reason for your party to get away. Your big mistake here is that you are assuming he was there to shoot you down and that he should be more adamant about stopping you when in reality he was there for something else.
Not true, you played through BoF2 last year. :p Welcome back to the 90s.Quote:
Edit: Oh god, the scene with Fei and Elly on the boat. This is one of the sappeist things I have seen in years. :p
If that was a lie, then his being there truly served no purpose what so ever. Except maybe to rile you up.
Of course if his plan was NOT for you to get shot down, well then it wasn't so much Citan that thwarted his plans, but his plans were thwarted by Bart. So which was it wolf, was he defeated by Citan, or defeated by Bart in this case? :p
(SPOILER)Really I'm just poking at you here, if you can't tell. :p
And seriously, that seen was way sappier then anything from BoF2.
I hope you noticed that Grahf specifically didn't wreck Elly in the boss fight. I would assume it's because he wants to wreck her in the bedroom.
Although, given Miang's lack of surprise at Grahf teleporting in on her while she was naked, maybe he's just a player.
And speaking of Elly, what kind of heartless fiend is unmoved by Fei and Elly's sweet moments together? For god's sake, Distant Promise was playing and everything!
I recently finished Xenogears, actually. Super good time when I did it, although, I am having trouble remembering all the details you're describing. xD I do not remember Elly and Fei's encounter on the ship. Ah well, probably for the best if it really is that sappy.
It's good that you're analyzing this stuff as you go - it'll be of use in the later parts of the game. Trust me :)
He actually succeeded in what he came to do to be honest. You also seem to forget that when he first showed up he told Fei he needed him to complete his plan, so obviously getting Fei killed is not his priority. :pQuote:
Originally Posted by Uncle Big Hands
If I had to choose though, I would say Bart shooting Fei down was not part of the plan, but Bart is pretty much an avatar of chaos in this game.
As for Fei and Elly's scene, I felt it was insightful for both of the characters and was nowhere near as sappy as some of the crap seen in later FFs like VIII, IX, and X. ;) I mean Fei's analogy of his life is pretty accurate judging from what's been going on in the game thus far. He mostly has been just letting things sweep him away from one event to another.
I agree it was insightful. I said it was sappy, not that it was bad. :p
And I do think it was Sappier then VIII, VIII just has the disadvantage of being utter trout. Same with X.
And IX was not that sappy. :colbert:
Also I hope you liked the Kaiser and Rico because the former will never be seen again and the latter joins the massive ranks of JRPG Side Character Party Members Who Become Irrelevant After Character Arc.
Rico gets one more scene in Disc 2, but yeah, it's really sad they dropped his arc. He seemed more interesting to me than Billy.
That's because Billy is terrible apart from his Healing Ether. (SPOILER)Never could have beaten Id without that Heal All spell.
Rico and all of Kislev strike me as one of the casualties of the story being compressed. It just feels like there was supposed to be more done with him but they abandoned it due to the infamous budget constraints.
I like Billy and I understand why his story is largely intact cause it's more important to the overall plot but I agree that Kislev should have gotten more love.
Well now I'm thuroughly depressed Kislev doesn't get love, cause The King is awesome the few times you see him.
I was even ready to forgive the abysmal security on the airship.
I'm am now on Ygdrassil II, Fei is in a comma, I've brought him back onto the ship, and currently Citan, Sigurd, and jessie are drinking in the gunroom.
The Ship can't take off without Sigurd, and we came back to the ship because A LARGE VESSEL APPEARED ON RADAR! Clearly drunken old man is more important then this....
The best part? I talked ot everyone in the Gunroom, Engine Room, and hammer. I've talked with everyone on the Bridge, and I can't find out what the smurf to do.
And I have a comic I'm sure some child wiped his ass on....
Edit: I finally just looked a ta walkthrough, something I had decided against earlier, and the smurf? Apperenlty you are suppose to magically figure out you need to do something at the Orphanage first, when the ship on your radar is obviously the far more important thing?
This game has a way of emersing me in whats going on, then immidiately pissing me the smurf off.
Edit: Yes Bart, after Billy tells us is tragic story, and mentioned he had once considered selling his body just to keep his poor starving sister fed, call him a moron.
...smurf you Bart.
Now don't you be messing with Bart and his Bromance :colbert:
...Why exactly do you have this pictures on hand?
Yeah I'd really like to know this. I mean, I assume every major RPG has its fair share of yaoi doujin but to even type it in the search bar expecting to come back with something for us, worth it enough to wade through distrubing content speaks volumes...
And I thought the whole Billy thing was one of the many gratuitous plot points that do nothing to add or progress the story, but the developers include just to shock the player and add an artificial layer of maturity to the story.
Honestly I only found the two pictures, this is a cult classic, it's mot like typing in Sephiroth Yaoi ;)
I disagree Bolivar (SPOILER)because Billy's storyline basically shows you the extent to how much Solaris controls everything. We know about Gebler but to learn that one of the religious orders is also a puppet organization that has it's hands in the pot all over the world just speaks volumes about how thorough and menacing Solaris is. Could we have skipped the obvious Catholic comparison? Yes sure, but technically this game came out before batting the Catholic church was seriously common place so I feel the reveal was a bit more shocking 14 years ago than it is now where its expected to make Catholic wannabe groups into havens of pedophilia and debauchery. Even then, its an off comment made by one of the characters and I feel the bulk of what Stone said around that statement (about Solaris' control and domination, and hints of the Wels program) is more important than picking out the game using an overdone trope.:p
The Ethos were being slowly built up in the early story archs and Billy's story pretty much is the big reveal about them. It does lead to Zeboim which is one of the cooler segments of the game if you ask me.
Billy should have the good grace to not tell his melodramatic backstory full of ridiculous BS until he is on the ground dying.
Or maybe he could just die and let a black man tell us over our magic ear phone that somehow lets him see things.
Yeah, been playing too much MGS. Although, in fairness to Billy, he's still not as terrible as the Beauty and the Beast Corp.
Or Drebin.
Or everything else in MGS4.\
Also, since Halloween is coming up, how about I counter WK's yaoi pic with some pretty cool fanart?
Doth thou desire...THE CANDY?
(SPOILER)
http://imageshack.us/a/img211/2996/xenocandy.jpg
I am Bolivar, the seeker of Candy.
And Wolf, I actually agree with you about (SPOILER)the Ethos reveal being a huge part of the story... Up until that point, they seemed like an independent group with their own goals, especially with their relationship with the Kislev gear fighting. The idea that this religious organization that existed for how ever so many years was really just another branch of Solaris' endeavors with its own function was the perfect way to transition the story from the fights of the different nations to the struggle against Solaris itself.
So while I totally enjoyed what an awesome plot twist it was, these are just two of the examples on how poor writing took away from the Xenogears experience, even at the beginning parts of the game as NeoCracker's been pointing out. (SPOILER)Billy being a boy prostitute does nothing to show the extent to which Solaris controls everything. All the lower members of the Ethos who weren't in on the conspiracy being child molesters anyway does nothing to add to the shocking truth of control.
I'm interesting in seeing what happens when this playthrough gets to that... factory.
(SPOILER) I already concurred that the child molester thing was overblown but the Billy thing tells us about how bad things got for a kid trying to raise his traumatized sister without his parents, it also shows us why he's so grateful to Bishop Stone (SPOILER) which makes it more tragic when we see Billy's world turn upside down, in fact the child molester thing pretty much does that too, where Billy is forced to see that the organization he devoted himself too for the benefit of the children like himself is so thoroughly corrupt. It doesn't need to be said to make the player realize that the Ethos were crappy, but if you think about it, it was really meant for Billy to make his semi-breakdown more realistic for the player. I mean besides Fei and Elly, Billy really got his world thrown upside down more than the rest of the cast.Quote:
Originally Posted by Bolivar
I'm interesting in seeing what happens when this playthrough gets to that... factory.[/QUOTE]
That's still one of my favorite parts of the game to be honest.
Well, Stone just got a hold of Nano-tech girl.
I fought with ID (Okay, the obvious answer here is that its actually Fei. At the very least they have a very strong connection, otherwise any of this build up with ID is just wasting our god damn time. :p)
I don't know if that's a fight you are normally suppose to win, but I kicked Id's Ass, and in the process have determined my main party will be Fei, Citan and Billy.
Billy can cast Haste on Citan. This is the sole reason I decided this. :p
Anyway, as Citan takes Fei back to the infirmary, I am off to fight the Giant Fish Bowl.
Edit: And when the smurf did Stone go Red Skull?
Edit: Okay, the 'I am the Seeker of power, dost though desire power?' Line was stupid the first time, and it continues to be stupid now.
Edit3: Okay, the entire bit with Stone, Billy, and Jessie was awesome. Especialy when Billy Fired the gun, not knowing what happened.
The Bad? Citan makes the first stupid move he has made and tells billy this BEFORE I beat Stone...
Edit4: Okay, That was teh most pathetic fake out death ever.
Oh he's going to die...... NOT!
No build up to his fake death, and immidiately it just didn't happen?
Because he fixed a problem with a thing we learned existed 2 seconds prior?
...I can't even comment further.
Now off to Babel! Here's hoping Jessie's information pays off!
Edit: Likely the last edit on this post, but I just thought to bring up Billy's gear. It has a cape. This is both stupid, and awesome.
And with Gears fully upgraded, I am ready to kick some ass.
I think you meant to say Grahf was awesome and the best part of that whole sequence.
Plus his theme music played during the unwinnable part of Stone's boss fight.
Congrats on beating Id. He is probably the hardest on-foot boss. Him or one other fight way down the line.
If you didn't take Elly I think you missed out on some very important stuff when you found the nano-girl. I don't know why they made Citan Party Leader for that dungeon when Elly is far more important.
Also have fun with by far one of the worst dungeons in the history of anything and that includes real dungeons where people were tortured to death. Babel Tower is far more terrible than those.
Also, how about some Xenogears Bingo?
http://imageshack.us/a/img849/6797/xenobingo.jpg
Okay, smurf Babel. I only made it to the first save point, but seriously? smurfing Platforming? This game has no where near the controls necessary to make Platforming anything BUT irritating.
Yes. The good news is, while platforming doesn't go away, it will never be as annoying as it is in Babel.
If I Recall Correctly....
Well, Chuchu just turned into a giant gear sized ass kicker to save the day.
I have no Idea how I'm suppose to take this game seriously from this point.
Edit: And Babel is one of the worst designed dungeons I have ever seen in an RPG
Edit2: I really liked the scene with Maria and her father just after that though.
Really, the smurf did Chu Chu even need to be there for? They could have skipped that stupidity entirely and just jumped to this.
Chu-Chu needed to be there because of awful executive decisions.
Tetsuya Takahashi: So I've got this great idea for a very complex plot full of interesting characters and an extremely elaborate backstory.
Square Director: Well then we can't make that into Final Fantasy VII. Final Fantasy and all of those things just don't mix.
Also can you put a cute, cuddly thing in there for merchandising purposes?
Also I hope you noticed that one of the best friggin' songs in the entire game played during those segments with Chu-Chu and Maria.
Yasunori Mitsuda - Flight - Tindeck MP3 Download
Heres the real question, how hard should I start trolling Wolf here? I'm currently in that area you get to after Bart and Margie use their eyes to open the doors.
I just destroyed teh gate beneath the Ethos HQ.
I got my ass kicked a couple times by the two fights there. Mostly I forgot about Areods, which are smurfing brutal. Once I remembered I had those and gave Elly a couple Ether boosting items on her gear, I two shot that fight both times.
I lost the second one once, only because appaerently both Bart and Rico in their Hyper Modes heal both enemies. O_O
This whole scenes dialogue was just awkward.
'Next time I won't go easy on you!' *Immidiately attacks*
Both figths were littered with this dialogue. o_O
A little re-adjustment of my Gears equipment (Really up until now I've just shoved defensive gear on them without paying much mind. :p) and the fights were a breeze.
And this is a slightly convoluted set up the ancients had. Wouldn't it have been more practical to make the giant laser cannon mobile then set up a mirror to reflect the beam, one that if your off much it will either miss entirely, or destroy your tower or beam? And why why did they attack two different ones, when they could have focused on just one? It's not like they needed to stop you on both fronts. And why did I only have 3 people at each? I still had Maria and, god forbid, Pupu. It would have given you full parties on both, AND made sense in context of the story.
Those are all just nitpicks though. :p
You know whats not? Let the trolling of WK commence.
So many of these god damn dungeons are awful. They are a series of walkways with the occasional side paths. A number of times though there is no point to take the side path as the there loot is either low end or non existant. The Dungeons tend to look the same from room to room, the Nisan gate you destroy being the worst offending.
These are among the worst and most boring dungeons I have ever seen. smurfing FF XIII's dungeons weren't as painfully dull, since they at the very least they had some varience within the dungeon as you progressed. The soul think that keeps Xenogears better then FF XIII in that regard is towns and an overworld map to break the monoteny of the dungeons.
(SPOILER)Smug
The shear lack of varied enemies doesn't help. You know what other game wolf hates that does a better job with this? FF X. And FF X is smurfing shameless in it's re-skinning of creatures.
Not saying this game just re skins, it just keeps re-using the same god damn monsters. Most areas have 2-3 monsters you will fight the entire dungeon. When you take into acount how easy it is to get lost on a couple maps due to the lack of variance, you will be seeing the same smurfers a lot on some of these maps.
(SPOILER):smug: :smug:
Wolf, I can see the good in this game, but I have no idea how you can call it one of your favorites. I'm enjoying it, but the game is bogged down by so much stupid crap at every turn.
Edit: Also Forsaken, once I finish my playthrough I look forward to taking you off my ignroe list so I can see what you've been saying this whole time. :P
I didn't want to read your apparent spoilers by mistake. :p
I think WK will admit the Xenogears dungeons are pretty bland and boring. FFXIII at least looked nice which is more than you can say for Xenogears' horrifically outdated graphics.
But fear not! Even if you can't read this, there is a pretty good dungeon not too far in the future.
Also I guess I'm the only person on Earth who had a lot of trouble with Shakhan. I got my ass kicked by him so many times.
Then I discovered Elly and Aerods and suddenly that boss fight was not hard at all.
Also this has nothing to do with anything, but let's talk about something that isn't brought up much in regards to Xenogears.
Shipping.
I totally ship Grahf and Miang. They are "dark" versions of our protagonist lovers aftr all.
Plus they're just my fave villains period.
Okay, the longer the game goes on, the stupider Fei seems to get.
Now that I'm on Solaris, it's easilly the dumbest he's been. "Lets Crawl in a Random tube!""Lets Charge in not knowing how to get in there!"
Once again, Citan shows himself to be the real brains here, already knowing how best to infultrate and rescue everyone.
Mind you, this is Fei's Soul inteligent thought all game, "Why are you able to Pass Security Citan?"
I love talking to the 3rd Class Citzens, and seeing the differences from level to level in this place.
I am baffled by the god aweful security. I mean really, this is smurfing horrid. I now see how these people were inept enough to trust Vanderkaum with a fleet.
Edit: My father just turned Traitor in a time of crisis! He'll totally be okay because of his record!
....smurf Elly is stupid.
Edit2: ...Is the meat people? Did I just eat People moments ago?
I'm not sure if we have this category in the Ciddies, but this is some of the finest, classic gold trolling I have ever read on this forum. Reminds me of when I beat Xenogears for the first time and worked it into nearly every discussion we were having about games with Mirage jumping in, too :DQuote:
Originally Posted by Uncle Big Hands
Trolling aside, do you really think it's that bad?
I exaggerated some, but it is pretty smurfing bad in those regards. I can let a lot go when you take into account time and budget restraints, but it can get tedious real fast. I can only forgive so much.
I'm actually at the part where you ahve some optional stuff to do before the final boss.
I'll keep this brief, cause otherwise I'll give myself a permanent migrane, but smurf Disk 2. Seriously, smurf this disk. I get a massive plot dump of an entire games worth of events your characters have been doing. Gee, I smurfing wish I was there for ANY OF THAT. And A lot of it is very plot relevant.
The worst part? It still doesnt' give you information you would think you'd need.
This story is, at it's core, great in concept. The problem is the actual presentation is bogged down by these ungodly text dumps, badly constructed scenes like Vanderkaum, and smurfing Pupu.
The worst part? I wish this were a bad game. If this was a bad game, I could just pass this all off as the creators being inept. The problem is teh game does a lot right, it has some great Ideas, adn a lot of them are done well. But my god, when the stupid comes, its unrelenting. And it is beyond frustrating for me.
Hell, I was so frustrated at teh text dumps, I broke my original plan of no guides just so I coudl get the smurf through the fights and be done with it.
The best bits have been the History of Locan, Gharf, and Fei on this disk. My care in the council had become non existant. Disk one I loved them, but the problem is by that point you still have no interaction with them and Cain, so when Krillian usurps them it feels like such a distant event I didn't care.
So far, for me, the highlight of the game is Solaris. Specifically Citan. His helping you through, Elly Realizing somethings wrong, his 'betrayal' and the reveal of his workings with Cain. The highlight of that bit was his conversation with Id. Absolutely wonderful stuff that was.
Back with more thoughts once it's over.
It's far from a perfect game. Yes I loved it and I played it in a time when trying to get a new JRPG made you really gloss over the flaws, but even I'll admit it has not aged that well, especially as a game. Though if you have the chance, I would say play through it again, as it's one of those stories where you pick on more and more of the subtleties each playthrough.
I also agree that for me the two high points of the game is Solaris and when you finally get to see the story of Krellean and Lacan. You have no idea how much I wanted Square to do Episode IV just because I knew it would be Lacan's story. Alas, unless Squenix partners with Nintendo, and thus MonolithSoft, I'll never get to see that game. :(
On the brightside, you can now play through Xenosaga and catch all the Xenogears references. It should make playing through the series a bit new for you. :D
Yeah, I don't think I'm playing this one a second time. :p
Oh you know you want chu ;)
...And with that part of my soul has died.
My first forum was a Xeno forum that replaced to, too, and you with chu... Wait, I'm on staff... :shifty:
Spelling errors aside :p I think you get at the heart here, that this is not a bad game, but there's flaws, and not just the expected flaws the average game is likely to have, but blatant flaws that hold Xenogears back from attaining the legacy its fans wish it had. And yet despite that, it's still an important game, and must-play game that in some ways defines what the PlayStation era was all about.Quote:
The worst part? I wish this were a bad game. If this was a bad game, I could just pass this all off as the creators being inept. The problem is teh game does a lot right, it has some great Ideas, adn a lot of them are done well. But my god, when the stupid comes, its unrelenting. And it is beyond frustrating for me.
This should be a bumper sticker, but I was expecting you were going to have the same reaction as me - that since the gameplay and dungeon design frustrated/bored you to extreme ends, you would enjoy to just sit back and have the awesome plot spoon fed to you.Quote:
smurf Disk 2. Seriously, smurf this disk.
But I have a question that I'm interested in some of your opinions on. Xenogears had to breeze through a lot of its plot due to budget constraints. But it took me 60 hours to beat this game, with only a couple side quests done at the end. That's a long play time, even for its time when RPGs were getting longer. My question to you all is do you really think they wanted to make a game that takes 80-100 hours just to complete its main story? Or were maybe they putting it all together since they knew Episodes I-IV wouldn't be made by Square?
Some people take the view that the best thing about Xenogears was the story so Disk 2 was actually an improvement.
Of course the dreaded Plot Chair wasn't good but is it any worse than half hour dungeons that totally suck in every way?
And when you weren't stuck in the Chair you got some pretty cool story stuff. Hell, the best plot moments probably happen in Disk 2.
I feel I don't mind the chair scenes from Disk 2 cause I was just getting off Neon Genesis Evangelion and I happen to be one of the few anime fans who actually feels the TV ending was the best ending to the series. :D
Not to mention I love the game more for the plot mostly.
being in the chair was like square telling me to take a time out and play in short intervals. after a few hours that gets pretty bland!
(SPOILER)Throw your soul away and kill Hammer when you have the chance.
So, I just did the Lighthouse....
Lacan's body resurected because he became the contact. This was established when you spoke with the Zohar highter being thing. The Entity.
This is what allowed him to survive through the different Generations as Miang and Elly could.
Explain to me how he existed as Kim 4000 years ago, when he hadn't become teh Contact until 500 years ago?
Edit: Adult kim is kind of hot though.
MAJOR XENOGEARS SPOILERS FOR THOSE WHO HAVEN'T REACHED THE FINAL DUNGEONHe was always the Contact, he gained that term when his first incarnation of Abel made contact with the Zohar/Wave Existence aboard the Eldridge 10,000 years ago, Abel reincarnates because he made a deal with the Wave Existence to destroy the Zohar. so Kim was already the Contact because he's a later incarnation of Abel. Just by existing in an incarnation, Abel's reincarnated selves are the Contact. Remember how in the flashback of Ramsus' past, Miang told Krelian she had already found the Contact, in the form of Fei as a child. So Contact is pretty much a term signifying the person was a reincarnation of Abel. Whether Kim ever made contact with the Zohar in his life is unknown.
The Contact you are referring to is that Fei's incarnations can re-establish Contact with the Zohar to gain their full power to destroy it. In Lacan's case, his mental state made doing this not work quite well and he basically became insane and used his knowledge of past lives to activate the Diabolos Defense units aboard the wrecked Eldridge remains to exterminate all life on the planet. The planet's major powers actually had to band together and use the Omnigears to fight them off and stop Lacan. This was the "ancient war with god" that Old Man Bal spoke about. Lacan didn't regain his sanity until he was about to be executed and so his soul reincarnated as Fei (presumably) and his will lived on as Grahf. Grahf wanted to destroy both Deus, the Wave Existence, and all human life in hopes of his and Sophia's souls could escape the Wheel of Reincarnation. Fans speculate that Miang helps him cause she too would also like to stop reincarnating but it's debatable if she even has a will of her own like Elly does. So it gets very Buddhist as well...
And only just now did I figure out what building up AP was actually good for. :p
And alright, that just means some of the dialogue there read really funny. The Existance made it sound like it wasn't until Lacan that he was reincarnating. :p
Mind you, this opens all sorts of oddities up when you ask how just the body is reincarnating when Lacan's Spirit/Will is what Gharf is, but you know what? That is the least of this games worries, so smurf it.
smurf this last dungeon. smurf it right it's its gaping asshole.
This is a large ass maze, and everything looks identicle.
And no real Landmarks.
....smurf you Xenogears.
I'll admit I used a nice GameFaqs guide for the final dungeon, as I was done with this team's dungeons at that point.
I'm looking forward to a final, end-all, be-all, all-time great Xenogears trolling. It's all been leading up to this!
Miang helpef Lacan 500 years ago for two reasons:
1. The Gazel were actually going to revive Deus then and there. They are a very egotistical lot and were chomping at the bit to be gods. Miang said it wasn't the right time but they said no screw you and sent her to Shevat. She thus had Lacan make Contact and lent him the Diabolos so he could eliminate all of Deus' necessary parts(96% of humanity was wiped out) while also eliminating the Gazel who betrayed her.
2. She 'resets" humanity whenever she thinks it will make more refined parts for Deus. Ether was a rarer gift 500 years ago and the Days of Collapse was a nice practical application of Social Darwinism where only those with these special Ether powers would survive. Thus their descendants would be stronger and better parts because of it.
By the time of the game she only works with him because it's convenient. Her, Krelian and Grahf all wanted Deus resurrected. After that however their objectives were radically different.
I like to think Grahf sometimes just teleported into Krelian's lab and went "doth thou desire the poon? i was tappin' dat every night".
I hate Krelian.
Firstly, now that I can see it, Xenogears bingo is smurfing awesome.
Secondly, you want Trolling? Well I'll give you trolling.
1) The most Grandoise plots ever? Really Wolf? What we have here is some Alien entity (In this case a machine) Landing on the planet and forever effecting the growth of this planets life, so that it may one day harvest them all. This in no way shape or form sounds like the plot from Chrono Trigger, surely. And clearly it didn't also rip off a bit of the plot line of Chrono Cross, where someone came in contact with the Frozen Flame, I mean Zohar, with the plans of Lavos's Ressurection, I mean Deus's Ressurection, in mind.
However, no Zeal you say? True there is no Zeal, as clearly we can't have a past Civilization in here, at least not as Chrono Trigger did. So lets instead rip off the church from Breath of Fire 2 and make the Ethos.
(SPOILER) Okay, I do think the game made enough use of the story elements to create an original plot going on, and I don't actually call what this game did ripping anything off. :p But I don't think it's such a uniquely epic Plot. Really I'd put it on par with Breath of Fire 2 in that regard.
2. This game really didn't make much use of the Rebirths of Abel. The only life past Fei and Lacan you really know about are Kim, who really doesn't add anything to the story. Lets just say Emeralda was written out as a playable character, and it was just the pasts NanoTechnology he grabbed. Does anything change? If He really did first become the contact as Lacan does ANY of the plot elements change in this game? Only the Idea that Lacan and Sophia were destined to love eachother for all of time. And Really I think it's a better story if it started with Lacan and Sophia. It's a hell of a lot more genuine that way. The whole Rebirth thing was just a wasted concept on Fei.
(SPOILER)It did work very nicely with Miang and Elly however. :p
3. Asside from his stupidicy of 'I am the seeker of power. Dost Though desire Power' l line, I really like Gharf. He had a constant pressence, and the sense of some Grand plan involving you. Yet the final bit with Gharf at the end is so underwhelming. And it's over so fast. The Idea he possessed your father was interesting, but comes the smurf out of nowhere. I can't think of any build up this twist had, not that it would matter because of how fast it all goes by. It barely mannages to leave an impact.
(SPOILER)I have no non trolling spoilers here, that's exaclty how I feel about it. :p
4. smurf Krellian. Firstly, I don't buy his motivations. They are worst then Sephiroth figuring out Jenova was his mother and that he was experimented on, then deciding the logical discourse was to devour the planet and become a god of world eating. 'My Woman is dead and loved someone else' becomes 'Well, I guess it's time to end all human life and stop Sophies Cycle of Rebirth.' ANd worse yet, they try to make you feel sympathetic with this guy? Say that he has more love in his heart then anyone else? That everyone will understand and forgive him for trying to kill humanity, and causing countless years of suffering among the populace? Are you smurfing kidding me?
4. Okay Wolf, you enjoy the Disk 2 plot dumps? Clearly you would enjoy, rather then playing a game, giving you entire games Plot SYnapsis, which is exactly what those were, a plot Synapses, instead of playing your games. So no need to waste money on certain games wolf, just wait for me to get them and I can stop you from wasting your money.
Yes, Krelian is terrible. My hatred for him is actually quite odd as I almost always like the "did not get the girl" character.
But everything about his personality rubbed me the wrong way. The fact he was introduced so late ddin't really help either.
But enough about that. What about the ending? What about one of the most beautiful ballads in JRPG history?
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=P6By7akRUYM
The games music was anywhere from average to above average. I woulnd't call it the most beautiful ever, but it was nice. :p
Really had the game not already made me stop giving a smurf about how it was going to end, the bit with Krellian would have done it. So I didn't really get any real response from the ending outside of Krellian pissing me off.
Nope, sorry. The game's OST is one of the best scores in the history of video games.
Really? I can remember 1 song from this game. And it's the boss music that goes 'Xeno Xeno Xeno Gears Gears Gears'
I don't even remember that, i need to check it now.Quote:
Originally Posted by Del Murder
lol wtf Del is this some kinda joke!????? And I guess we'll all just have to disagree, I thought it was one of the best scores I've heard, probably one of Mitsuda's finest.
Anyway, since the playthrough is over, my thoughts are that Xenogears is one of the most incredible PS1 RPGs and a must-play game for fans of the genre. But it's also one of the worst thing to happen to JRPGs because it reinforces a stereotype I mentioned earlier.
It reminds me a lot of what Wolf said (that Yahtzee said) about Silent Hill. It's an amazing story that could only be told through video games. The way the scene is captured, the style of music, the artwork, this is JRPGing at its finest.
... but the gameplay. Some JRPGs have great dungeons, some have great puzzles, others have awesome customization or deep strategy. Xenogears has none of these things.
One weird thing about it that never clicked for me is how much content would have been in the full game. It's already longer than almost every other RPG on the PlayStation, and that's flying through a ton of segments with no gameplay at all. I just don't understand what went wrong on that front...
The problem is there is a lot of stuff in there that you simply don't need.
1.) Gazel Ministry
Just right them out of the plot. What would change? Instead you have Krellian, whose risen to the top of Solaria, and his plans are being halted by Emperor Cain. I loved the council honestly, but they have virtually no effect on whats going on then Krellian could have without them. Your completel lack of dealing with the Council makes their involvment, and eventual destruction, kind of meaningless.
2.) Abel.
Just say he became the Contact with Lacan/Gharf. You've cut out the Emeralda bits, which added nothing to the plot, and really the fact Abel has been around pre-contact doesn't really seem relevant to anything.
3.) Pointless planning sequenced.
This goes for both the first attempted coup of Aveh. There is a lot of time and build up for a plan which just bombs out entirely. This also goes for Citan getting you into Solarian to remove the inbred fear from your parties DNA. Both involved good scenes, but really accomplish virtually nothing. The scenes can work on a hole, but the developers put them in with a game that had way to much plot to get out on too short of time constraints.
I mean all the build up in Aveh goes to smurf when Kahr discovered your plan. Awesome. You get a couple bad pay offs, then Gharf comes in, makes you go mad, and just smash everything and everyone. We are now back to exactly the square we were on before in terms of Aveh in general. Essentially all we get from this is that actually moves plot forward is the scene with Cain and Citan, as well as Rico and Hammer joining. (The relevance of the later two characters is rather pointless though, with all that got dropped.)
This game tried to indulge in way to many luxuries it didn't have time to indulge in.
In the game's original planning stage, it was actually meant to be Chrono Trigger 2 hence why it carried over so many themes and ideas and why Lucca made a guest appearance in Lahan. Also Xenogears predates Chrono Cross by a year (roughly the same team though) so Chrono Cross actually copied Xenogears. Also it's not an alien entity, it's actually from the real humanity. In the source material, Deus System is being transported caused it's initial activation destroyed planet Michtam. Sound familiar? ;)Quote:
Originally Posted by Uncle Big Hands
Sadly a lot of Abel's stuff was cut from the game with a lot of it paraphrased for space restrictions. He's really important but the game just couldn't fit it all in but I would argue his causing this whole mess in the first place makes him pretty relevant. Kim is important for the nanotech design, but also to let the player really see the Zeboim era which is the era that many of the mass produced Gears came from as well as showing the player Miang's role in the "Ancient Conspiracy". I also like the coincidence of the tool needed to complete the villain's goal is actually created from a past incarnation of Fei. I also like Emerelda but I'll concede she's not very important after her initial intro, though we can say that about Rico and some of the other cast members as well sadly enough.Quote:
2. This game really didn't make much use of the Rebirths of Abel. The only life past Fei and Lacan you really know about are Kim, who really doesn't add anything to the story. Lets just say Emeralda was written out as a playable character, and it was just the pasts NanoTechnology he grabbed. Does anything change? If He really did first become the contact as Lacan does ANY of the plot elements change in this game? Only the Idea that Lacan and Sophia were destined to love eachother for all of time. And Really I think it's a better story if it started with Lacan and Sophia. It's a hell of a lot more genuine that way. The whole Rebirth thing was just a wasted concept on Fei.
(SPOILER)It did work very nicely with Miang and Elly however. :p
I never really cared for the whole "I am your father thing, the way Grahf is designed it always felt more like a shout out to Star Wars than something practical. While I agree that the scene could have been done better and had more build-up I actually like the idea of Grahf/Lacan finally rediscovering his lost humanity and finally letting go so he can leave everything up to his modern incarnation. I found the scene pretty touching considering he's in third place behind Id and Miang for complete monster of the villains roster. He's honestly one of my favorite villains ever written to be honest, at least in my top 5.Quote:
3. Aside from his stupidity of 'I am the seeker of power. Dost Though desire Power' l line, I really like Grahf. He had a constant pressence, and the sense of some Grand plan involving you. Yet the final bit with Grahf at the end is so underwhelming. And it's over so fast. The Idea he possessed your father was interesting, but comes the smurf out of nowhere. I can't think of any build up this twist had, not that it would matter because of how fast it all goes by. It barely manages to leave an impact.
(SPOILER)I have no non trolling spoilers here, that's exactly how I feel about it. :p
Actually, Krellian simply lost faith in everything. Sophia's death was traumatic but it also made him lose faith in god and the world and thus he spent the rest of his time trying to find meaning. Some point he was captured by Solaris and I'll assume his skills with nanotechnology was what probably saved him from slave labor and made him prominent. His goal was really to find god and end human misery by forcing humanity to evolve into higher beings to be with the Wave Existence. So he's actually a well-meaning extremist. Though on the other hand, I also like that the writer's don't make him too sympathetic. I honestly feel Krellian was sort of meant to be a divisive figure for fans, and I kind of like that he sort of plays at that religious argument of an all-loving, forgiving god who would allow someone like Hitler or Charles Manson into Heaven despite everything they did.Quote:
4. smurf Krellian. Firstly, I don't buy his motivations. They are worst then Sephiroth figuring out Jenova was his mother and that he was experimented on, then deciding the logical discourse was to devour the planet and become a god of world eating. 'My Woman is dead and loved someone else' becomes 'Well, I guess it's time to end all human life and stop Sophies Cycle of Rebirth.' ANd worse yet, they try to make you feel sympathetic with this guy? Say that he has more love in his heart then anyone else? That everyone will understand and forgive him for trying to kill humanity, and causing countless years of suffering among the populace? Are you smurfing kidding me?
I didn't mind the way it was done but I already said it was probably because I was getting off the high from Evangelion so giant robot shows about religion just needed to end with characters giving the viewer exposition while sitting on chairs, or at least I assumed that. :pQuote:
5. Okay Wolf, you enjoy the Disk 2 plot dumps? Clearly you would enjoy, rather then playing a game, giving you entire games Plot SYnapsis, which is exactly what those were, a plot Synapses, instead of playing your games. So no need to waste money on certain games wolf, just wait for me to get them and I can stop you from wasting your money.
This goes back to something I said about story driven games. If the plot is the main focus then it better be good otherwise he game is hell for some people. I didn't mind the 2nd Disc cause I honestly just wanted to know what was going on cause I was hooked into the story by this point.
This is largely my feelings on the game. It's certainly not aging as gracefully as I had hoped but I still feel it's grandeur is still there. I do feel the game had a lot of really good gameplay ideas ( movable camera in true 3D environment, jumping/platforming, interactive turn based battle system) but I was also agree that Xenogears didn't do any of them very effectively and some downright terrible. Funny enough, it's probably because Xenoblade incorporated so many of these elements that I felt it was Xenogears spiritual successor.Quote:
Originally Posted by Bolivar
Honestly, I feel the game was really meant to be four discs long and there is evidence on Disc 1 and 2 of of several places, enemies, and scenes that were dummied out cause they didn't have time to complete them. My guess is that it was going to be 4 discs long but as time constraints kicked in, the team decided to go with the idea of expanding things with prequels but the prequels were never greenlighted and so that's why you have to read Perfect Works to get more of the story. P[art of the reason they created Monolith Soft was so they could finish Xenogears, but that also failed. I feel Takahashi has great vision for an epic story but it's obvious with how both Gears and Saga were handled that he really didn't know how to effectively tell these stories while dealing with real life problems like money, development time, and other director issues. He may have finally figured it our with Xenoblade Chronicles but I doubt very much Monolith Soft will ever revisit any of the previous Xeno titles. Which is a shame cause Xenogears really needs a remake.
Not really, they are the main villains until Krellian shows up, in fact, the Gazel Ministry is to Fei's party what Grahf is to Fei, your whole party basically being the reincarnation of the Gazel Ministry's bodies lost in the war. The Gazel Ministry drive most of the story as being the main bastards that caused most of the problems, once they lost their human bodies and became machines, they truly lost their humanity and I really liked how this story echoes Leji Matsumoto's Galaxy Express 999 in the theme that it's out mortality and physical weakness that makes us human. This in itself ties back to the teachings of Nisan who say that humanity was made to be imperfect so we can learn to love and work together to achieve perfection. The allegory here is actually quite amazing in my opinion and it's things like this that I feel makes Xenogears' story much better than other games.Quote:
Originally Posted by Uncle Big Hands
Except it explains everything, I mean without Abel you can't have Deus and that's the crutch of the game's entire plot. The entire epic scope of the game is Abel's story to stop Deus from reviving and fulfilling his contract with the Wave Existence. I can see Kim being written out or relegated to a simple flashback but even then I like that it shows more of Fei's heartache and how his reincarnation with Elly has been tragic. It makes the ending much more sweeter when you realize that Fei and Elly might finally pass on for good or at least reincarnate with less bulltrout to deal with.Quote:
2.) Abel.
Just say he became the Contact with Lacan/Gharf. You've cut out the Emeralda bits, which added nothing to the plot, and really the fact Abel has been around pre-contact doesn't really seem relevant to anything.
Well chances are these scenes were done before the game really hit the wall with it's development problems so they probably wouldn't have been so bad had the rest of the game panned out like the developers wanted, so you're basically whining about more time being spent on an early part of the game despite the later parts not adding up cause one scene was made before the producers stepped in and told them they needed to have the game done by a holiday release.Quote:
3.) Pointless planning sequenced.
This goes for both the first attempted coup of Aveh. There is a lot of time and build up for a plan which just bombs out entirely. This also goes for Citan getting you into Solaris to remove the inbred fear from your parties DNA. Both involved good scenes, but really accomplish virtually nothing. The scenes can work on a hole, but the developers put them in with a game that had way to much plot to get out on too short of time constraints.
Not really, I feel the Aveh scene much like the scenes in Lahan are there to show the player this isn't going to pan out like your typical JRPG where things mostly go in your party's favor. The way the early Aveh sequence pans out shows the player that the villains are more competent than you think (Vanderkaum being a red herring to trick you into thinking this will be a typical JRPG) and saving the day is going to be an uphill battle. The switch over to Kislev also creates a sense of discouragement for the player, and allows you to sympathize with Fei more as you both squandered your time to help people and utterly failed. A lot of RPG do that moment where everything goes to hell but that;s usually either in the middle of the game or towards the end in order to raise the stakes. Very few totally pistol whip you early in the game, with FFIV and DQV probably being the most prominent early examples. I like that this was done cause I feel it not only sets up a better tone for the rest of the game but makes you more weary of your victories as you wait for it to go to hell. It throws the players expectations off and I appreciate that.Quote:
I mean all the build up in Aveh goes to smurf when Kahr discovered your plan. Awesome. You get a couple bad pay offs, then Grahf comes in, makes you go mad, and just smash everything and everyone. We are now back to exactly the square we were on before in terms of Aveh in general. Essentially all we get from this is that actually moves plot forward is the scene with Cain and Citan, as well as Rico and Hammer joining. (The relevance of the later two characters is rather pointless though, with all that got dropped.)
Bottomeline: your issue is that the game is unfisnished and it's a travesty that it is so, so get in line with the rest of us. ;)Quote:
This game tried to indulge in way to many luxuries it didn't have time to indulge in.
Firstly, I said the ripping off of elements of Trigger and BoF2 wasn't really an issue, just pointing out the incomplete plot as it was presented wasn't as amitious as you were originally making it sound. As intended perhaps, but not as it was presented:p
With so much of Abel's bits cut, it makes just as much sense that the contact Lacan had with The Wave Existence was when the agreement between the two was made. Had more of Abel's plot been left in I would agree with you, but without it the little bits they do have are completely pointless. Especially we have the scene where Miang speaks with Lacan and leads him to the Zohar.
We shall just have to disagree on Krellian then. It seems like way to much of a stretch from what he went through to where he ended up for me, especially the attempt at sympathy in the end.
And the me reading you the plot synapsis was purely me poking at you. Personally, while a bit unrelated, I don't think the last two episodes of Eva and the Movie work without eachother. On their own they are incomplete, but together they for a more cohesive finally. :p
In Regards the the Gazel Ministry, they aren't needed to be the driving force of the douche things that happen to you through the game. We already have Krellian for that. The hole premise works amazingly, but the simple fact you ahve no real interaction with them, and their whole story resolves without you ever laying eyes on them, or so much as reading a post it they left behind, makes them irrelevant. We could have had the same story with Just Krellian and Cain, the PC's could still be the reincarnations of the original humans, and we could have cut a good chunk of time devoted to the council. (Mind you, I actually really liked the Council, and I thought they made for a great bunch to have around for some more symbolic reasons, but the game just didn't have the time to spend on that luxury.)
I already stated why Abel was irrelevant, since we could just have the agreement with The Wave Existance made with Lacan. I also expressed why I disliked the constant revival's of Fei and Elly. Them being destined to love eachother life after life doesn't resonate with me like if there loved started with Sophia and Lacan, and when Fei returns during that life wakes up the memories and feelings she had during her life as Sofia. That just comes down to personal opinion though. :p
And if you want to boil down my argument to whining, then any bad thing you have said about Xenosaga 2 is nothing more then whining, since we both know there was a lot of bulltrout going on involving the making of that game. So you don't get to bitch about me bitching. ;P
^ Wait, have you played Xenosaga before going into this???
Yes. :pQuote:
Originally Posted by Bolivar
This... changes...
http://www.gifsforum.com/images/gif/...d/54285172.gif
EVERYTHING!!!
If by 'everything' you mean 'nothing at all'. :pQuote:
Originally Posted by Bolivar
Well can I just ask, since it's relevant to this thread, what were your thoughts on Xenosaga and how did it affect your impressions going in to Xenogears? How do you feel?
I actually don't see how playing Xenosaga first has any effect on Xenogears either. There are a few references and similarities, but... that's about it. How does playing Xenosaga first actually take anything away from Xenogears?
Also: I haven't even read half of all these massive walls of text yet, but I'll just throw two of my own thoughts about the game in here:
1) I didn't feel Xenogears quite lived up to its reputation either. Even if most of the flaws were because the game was kinda unfinished, the reason for the flaws being there doesn't really help making them better. The fact that the game could have been awesome doesn't make it awesome.
2) The final dungeon, if anything, was a terribly designed place. I had forgotten about its very existence until it was mentioned here. But now I remember the hellish pain-in-the-ass dungeon that was. I feel a final dungeon should be exciting and epic. The very dungeon itself should have a kind of "build up" atmosphere leading up to the final boss. But the final dungeon in Xenogears mainly just felt like any other dungeon, except longer and much more annoying. I recall one point where I played for over 1 hour without finding a place to save, until I finally just got so bored I just quit the game and decided to try again later. Then the very same thing repeated like 4-5 times before I finally could be bothered to make it to the next savepoint. And it wasn't really the fact that I had to play for over 1 hour that was the problem. The problem was that the only thing I did during that hour was walking back and forth in a labyrinth full of the same random encounters. It was not all that exciting, basically. :greenie:
I'd already figured Xenogears would have nothing at all to do with Xenosaga, so I avoided drawing any direct comparisons between the two. :pQuote:
Originally Posted by Bolivar
I will give Gears this though, it's combat was good compared to Xenosaga 2. :p
Well, I wasn't expecting it to go either way, I was just curious since I have yet to play Xenosaga myself. I probably wouldn't expect any comparisons either if it weren't for Wolf putting me onto the Perfect Works guide, which seemed to have the entire script for those games in it.
Hearing more about the final dungeon helps me feel much better about using a guide for it :)
I played Xenosaga Episode 1 and II before Xenogears.
My general thoughts on the two is that Xenogears is better but Xenosaga has some distinct advantages.
Xenogears suffers the typical JRPG trait of having irrelevant party members (which I think I commented on earlier) but Xenosaga does a pretty good job of keeping everyone important and interesting. Moreso in the first game than the subsequent two but still, everyone had amazing moments throughout Episode 3.
Xenogears' strength is in its two leads and villains. Xenogears had Margulis and Yuriev and Shion (in Episode 1 anyway) and I liked them all very much. They just don't really compare to how fascinating Grahf and Miang and Fei were. Fei alone has to be one of the most intriguing mains in any JPRG. I adore his backstory.
Also can't underestimate the attractive quality of a good love story. Xenosaga didn't realy have that. Well it certainly had nothing comparable to Fei/Elly.
It is interesting to note there are a lot of similarities between the two series. This is understandable of course but it's still fun to read about. A man much more informed and smarter than I wrote a titanic piece on the "mirrored" aspects o Xenogears and Xenosaga.
For example, he points out the main theme of Xenogears is "Grief." Everyone in the game is struggling to overcome the eternal human problem of suffering and sorrow. Grahf thought the solution lay in nihilism and Krelian thought it lay in the removal of human will. The point of Fei's little debate with Krelian at the end was that grief isn't something to be conquered. It's part of our lives and you just have to deal with it as it comes along.
Xenosaga meanwhile is all about Fear. Just like many Gears' antagonists wee born of Grief, many Saga heroes and villains were born of fear. Just like in Xenogears there is a body-snatching immortal who has a destructive solution to this dilemma.
And there's plenty more like that. I enjoy it quite a bit.
I disagree on Xenogears being a great love story, but that's because I dislike the Idea that their love was basically destined throughout time, and that kills the romance for me.
I will give you Fei being an interesting Protaganist with a great backstory, but I think my care for him suffered in part due to the cuts to the game, as well as him being kind of a dip the whole game. He is more interesting then Shion though. :p
Gharf I will agree was awesome, though suffered way to much do to late game cuts. Krellian I just thought was a poor villain all around.
Even if Gharf hadn't suffered Budget Cuts though, I don't think he'd stack up to Albedo and Wilhelm. Only read this next bit if you already know, or don't plan on finishing three. :p (SPOILER)Wilhelm is up their with the most unique RPG Villains I have ever seen. He is not a bad guy. He has no ill intentions in his heart, he wishes no harm to anyone, and is genuinely doing this for the good of the world. And he doesn't come across as crazy for doing so.
Xenosaga is the only game I've seen where the main antagonist could very easily be described as a genuinely good person.