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I hear people talking about how new games often lacks this "feel", but I have yet to see anyone actually describe what this feeling is.
What exactly is the "Final Fantasy feel"? Is there even such a thing?
I challenge you to describe a feel that is consistent through most of the games, up to at least FF10, where most people start saying that the feel is gone.
I would also like to know. People say the same when you ask why they didn't like FF: Spirits Within. "It just doesn't feel like Final Fantasy!" they say. I just... don't get what it even remotely means. :p
If you removed the FF staples from any of the games, would you not just be left with a generic turn-based RPG? Feel free to tell me I am wrong, I insist you do, really. xD
TSW was just a bad movie in general. Being a Final Fantasy movie had little to do with it :p.
In my opinion anyway.
I'll describe that feel after you accurately describe how it feels to be in love.
The Final Fantasy feel for me has got to do with two things.Quote:
Originally Posted by theundeadhero
Story and Music. I have loved every single FF that I've played, and no matter what the gameplay was like, for me the two consistent things for me was the story and music. The music has always been good, and the story sans VIII has always engrossed me.
So good music and good story = Final Fantasy feel.
Does that mean that other games with good stories and good music also have the final fantasy feel?
I think it's the nostalgia filter at work here. When people think some games were better and can't think of a logical argument, they say it's about this "Final Fantasy feel", yet none can actually accurately describe what that means :greenie:
That's half of what I was getting at with this thread :3
I agree with music and story. There are even some games that are NOT Final Fantasies that have the Final Fantasy Feel to them. Even if certain mechanics in the game are DRASTICALLY different, a story that makes sense, and an amazing music score with the "flavor" of FFI-IX (and kind of X, for a few songs), accurately describes the Final Fantasy Feel to me. The first Breath of Fire, up until the ending, which was the worst ending I've ever experienced in video game history, had it. Dragon Quest games have it. Golden Sun and GS 2 had it, though GS:DD didn't. Final Fantasy Tactics, TA, and TA2 had it. FF Mystic Quest, Crystal Chronicles, VIII, XII, XIII, X-2, and XIII-2 didn't have it, while FFX had some of it, but not all of it.
Like has been stated before, though. I'll describe what the feel is like when you can describe what love actually feels like.
^ Exactly, we're talking about a "feel" and intangibles are naturally difficult to understand.
To me, there's a certain way the story progresses, there's particular things you have to do to explore and move the game forward. There's also certain sensibilities in the art and sound design, even after Nomura and Minaba took the reigns as character designers. The game design from FFI-IX was largely homogenous. You walk on a miniature world map, talk to NPCs in towns and other locations, delve into dungeons and fight random encounters in a battle screen that mostly looks the same. The story involves a group of (mostly) orphans who stop an ancient evil of the past from returning to destroy the world.
I don't think it's nostalgia. When I played FFIX, even though it employed a radically different art style, it felt very much a continuation of what Square was trying to do with Final Fantasy VII and VIII. Final Fantasy XII, although one of my favorites, didn't accomplish this feat.
The Final Fantasy feel people are refering to is the creators actually trying to do a good job at making a good RPG. FF8 isn't a final fantasy game I enjoyed but it didn't seem like it just made just for pretty graphics and to fool people into buying it. There is a feel to it and if your going to argue semantics then there is no point in discussing it because I'm sure you can argue that tell the cows come home. I'm not interested in a boring semantics arguement but I will tell you if they actually would have gave a decent effort in the last two final fantasy games instead of trying to make them look pretty then we wouldn't be having this conversation.
That doesn't make any sense to me, so a good effort = FF feel? but if that is the case then what sets FF feel apart from any other good RPG? I mean don't tell me FF feels like Dragon Quest or Golden Sun or YS or Suikoden or Tales of. Also, FF fanbase is diverse to point it is possible to find people liking the less recommended games (FF2,FF3,MQ,FF5,FF8,X-2,12) than highly ones (FF1,FF4,FF7,FF9,FF10).Quote:
Originally Posted by LGman
I don't think there is any actual "feel" that is shared between a large amount of final fantasy games. Most of them are entirely different in visuals, battle system, music and storytelling. There is much more of a common "feel" between for example Star Ocean games and Tales of games than there is in Final Fantasy. Between all the main series Final Fantasies, the biggest similarity between most of them is really just Nobuo Uematsu's music, and references to older games through enemies and weapons. Honestly though, some of the best music in any FF to me is stuff that wasn't actually made by him, so I don't mind too much that he's not doing a lot of FF music anymore.Quote:
Originally Posted by LGman
The good graphics of the last two games is not the cause of the poorer quality of them. That's just crazy talk. Do you think the storywriters will intentionally write poorer stories just because SE hires a few more graphics artists and programmers? Most of FF13 and 13-2's failings were due to poor decisions, not lack of resources.
By the way, if you don't want to argue semantics, you might be in the wrong thread :D
Well I had a more significant post planed out, but pressed one wrong button and it got lost. So, my summary of what makes an FF?
-A big immersive world that you get to fully explore, none of this "A few areas only" crap recent FF's throw at you.
-A diverse cast of characters from different walks of life and their own quirks.
-There's generally crystals or something similar to them.
-A villain who attains great ancient power, or is an ancient sealed evil, or some sort of other powerful and cryptic antagonist.
-Prophecies/legends are also present many times.
-A grand epic journey where the heroes journey and come together for the common cause to save the world from the impending evil (I'd argue the most important point for any FF is this one right here).
These are the general points I think most FF's in general have (of course give or take 1 or 2 points). As a general rule I use FF4/9 as my template for the Final Fantasy feel, as I consider them the 2 most Final Fantasy games out there (and unless I'm mistaken Sakaguchi himself even states FF9 he considers the most Final Fantasy style game of the franchise).
But if all these were present in a non-FF, wouldn't that game also have a FF-feel?
If not, why?
A lot of these elements were in Lost Odyssey, which quite honestly felt like the most Final Fantasy-ish game since 9. Of course it was made by the man who created and pioneered Final Fantasy, so that's something that doesn't surprise me much. I think it's quite possible for a non-FF to feel more like an FF then an FF. Though Lost Odyssey is the only one that I've played that had the FF feel to it.Quote:
Originally Posted by Mirage
Well, it's just that most good RPGs I have played lately include most of those points. Many other "JRPGs" have all of them, although sometimes not as good writing, but I wouldn't say they feel similar to FF games.
For the most part, the strongest similarity I can see between FF games is the ATB battle system, which is present in all the games from 4 to 9, 10-2, 13 and 13-2. That kind of feels like sort of a thin base to build an entire series' "feel" on, though.
When looking at for example Tales of, and Star Ocean games, their battle systems seem a lot more distinct than ATB, probably because those games have a lot more dynamic combat system. While there are significant differences between these, I think it is easy to notice that the people making Tales of have at some point worked together with the Star Ocean guys in the past (which actually is the case). This is for example noticable in menu design, item balance, direct control of characters on the battlefield, chaining attacks together and using hitbox detection for attacks, often using the same composer (Motoi Sakuraba), and usually the existence of a multitude of variations of the game's ending.
Now of course, this is kind of similar to how FF have used ATB for a long time and using Nobuo Uematsu as the composer, but all in all, I think the similarities between FF games are a lot more shallow than in some other game series. It is perhaps to be expected, because the series is so huge and old, and therefore it would be hard to make games more similar without them all being practically the same game. What I like the most about FF is that each game is a brand new game, with its own lore, its own world design, its own gameplay elements.
The times I have enjoyed FF the most is when they've gone ahead and made something completely different from earlier games, when I feel like the game is very different from the last game I played. Sure, spell names and monsters are reused, but that's kind of a shallow similarity so I don't care too much about them being the same. Despite all the negative things I've said about FF13, I really liked a lot of the new combat elements they brought in that game, even if a lot of them could have been tweaked better. FF13-2 did just this, but failed in the story department again. Likewise, FF12 is very different from past FF games too, and that again is some of the things I enjoyed about the game. For FF8, I really liked the twist they did with character progression, going away from mindless grinding and focusing more on other ways to gain power. In the end, it was easily breakable, but the important thing is that they tried. If FF stopped trying to reinvent itself at regular intervals, that's when I think the series would be over for me.
Well I think one thing that separates FF from other fantasy RPG's is the general setting that isn't quite fantasy. What with the games having a blend of technology and magic, blended together. Some games technology is strange in it, others magic feels off, and even games that try and blend them seem to feel strange with one or the other. Final fantasy tends to blend the 2 together in just about every game and make it feel good.
The feel of Final Fantasy gets me reved but often leaves me unsatisfied.
phoenix downs and potions and summon monsters and crystals and melodrama and the impending sense of doom unless you and your rag-tag team of miscreants grind a bit and destroy a bunch of overgrown animals and final bosses
followed by a really expensive outro
i had the ff feel during tales of phantasia so i dunno wtf people are talking about when saying 'ff' has a feel honestly
The "final fantasy feel" for me includes chocobo, cactuar, tonberry, moogle, hastega, waterga, cid....
You get the idea. Reoccurring themes make it feel like Final Fantasy to me. Even newer releases feel like Final Fantasy to me.
The feel, for me, is from the combination of Sakaguchi's game direction, Uematsu's music, and Amano's art direction. It has less to do with individual components of the game and more with the feeling imbued by their careful attention to detail in creating the world. Even though the games are made by teams it's obvious how strong their influences were and I believe their departures are why so much of the magic has been lost in recent titles.
I think you sum it up well, I guess in my thoughts I didn't consider 3 main players in the Final Fantasy series, but I do agree those 3 are big contributions to what makes something feel like a Final Fantasy along with other elements.Quote:
Originally Posted by Shoeberto
Well, since when Amano was an art director for FF? he is an "image illustrator" which means that at some point they will be using some art he did either in the game, or as promotional pieces, or as cover art or for game guides, just like tons of late 80s games from Japan.Quote:
Originally Posted by Shoeberto
Honestly, other than Uematsu, i don't feel Sakaguchi or Amano were big deal at all. Also, what is that magic that has been lost in recent titles? I am interested to know.
My opinion is based on Auteur theory as applied to video games. It's something you can see frequently in industrial processes - for example, Apple's products being so heavily tied to Steve Jobs' vision - but in this case, I see the "feel" of FF being directly related to the influence of the three people I mentioned; Amano's concepts for characters and environments contributed significantly to the visual feel of the games, Uematsu's music set the emotional tone for the world and story events, and Sakaguchi's game direction are what set the pacing of the game, as well as defined the mechanics that made them enjoyable.Quote:
Originally Posted by ShinGundamWell, since when Amano was an art director for FF? he is an "image illustrator" which means that at some point they will be using some art he did either in the game, or as promotional pieces, or as cover art or for game guides, just like tons of late 80s games from Japan.Quote:
Originally Posted by Shoeberto
Honestly, other than Uematsu, i don't feel Sakaguchi or Amano were big deal at all. Also, what is that magic that has been lost in recent titles? I am interested to know.
The magic that I feel is missing comes with the departure, or at least reduced influences, of those three. At least in the main titles. FFXIII seemed little more to me than a focus group-tested series of checkboxes to be ticked in order to satisfy some requirement up high for a new title that Final Fantasy could be plastered on. I haven't played many of the recent portable titles, but from what I understand they've been far more fun and enjoyable, which fits - a smaller team on a smaller project has more wiggle room to take ownership and experiment. A big team on a triple-A title these days tend to rely on corporate approval of everything to minimize risk due to the huge development costs. Plenty of big-name Japanese developers have complained about this and it's made them leave for smaller outfits where their creative vision can shine through.
This is all my opinion, of course, but it's the reason I really don't give two trouts about Final Fantasy anymore. I groan with new titles being announced because I can't shake the feeling that it's just milking something that used to be truly great and original. I just hope SE can prove me wrong.
Personally, I don't really believe in that theory, games are made by teams, sometimes huge teams and that makes it even harder to convey the concepts without changes or alterations. Also, it is not like FF was consistent even back then, does FF7 feel like FF5 or does FF6 feel like FF1? To me, no.
Speaking of focus group-tests, FFXIII wasn't focus tested from what i know or they test it but they couldn't adjust the game based on feedback because they had to release it as soon as possible before it became a vaporware project.
Do you want an SE game that used focus group feedbacks, it is a portable game called Bravely Default, the game that people claim it carries FF's magic/soul/etc and got high user rating because it felt like NES or SNES RPG. Square add a survey contest now for sequel with three questions: "what jobs do you want in a sequel", "what plot points do you want us to cover in a sequel or spinoff", and "what merch do you want". On the other hand, A big budget console vaporware like VersusXIII is an ARPG based on fictional world that is actually "remodeled" after real world cities such as Tokyo Shinjiku, Venice and so on, as huge fan of Modern, Sci-fi and oriental JRPGs, i can't remember any JRPG did this, if there is then it is probably one or two JRPGs.
In general, I don't think JP portable devs are in better situation, many of their games are spiritual sequels, hunting and quests games, Moe/anime games, remakes, ports, homage and crossovers. Some of them even stopped releasing on portables in favor GREE or web browser games because these devs want to target the lowest spec platforms and benefit from low development cost and risks.
It's when Final Fantasy touches you in that naughty place. :smug:
It's something that butthurt fanboys say to explain their hatred of all post-FFIX entries because OMG HOW DARE THEY CHANGE ANYTHING AND NOT MAKE THE SAME GAME FOR THE TENTH TIME AROUND, HOW DARE THEY TRY SOMETHING DIFFERENT!"
See also:
-Resident Evil 4 and on is not Resident Evil
-Tomb Raider Legendand on is not Tomb Raider
-DmC: Devil May Cry is not Devil May Cry
-Metroid: Other M is not Metroid
-Mortal Kombat 4 and on is not Mortal Kombat
-Crash Bandicoot 4: The Wrath of Cortex and on is not Crash Bandicoot
I can't even...Quote:
Originally Posted by DMKA
Please tell me that your kidding right?! Resident Evil is not Resident Evil anymore. It's some try-hard shooter type game and don't me started on Ashley. The new Dante is a huge ass-hole and annoying Justin Bieber sounding ass. " Wow I gave somebody the finger ! " " I'm so KO0l and hip and such a huge rebel " ! Please. Metroid Other M COMPLETELY destroys Samus's character, and Crash 4 has horrible downloading times, bad storyline plot and terrible extra characters. What to say that the Spyro the Dragon change is good ? Or the Sonic the Hedgehog change has been good ? Yeah no. Change doesn't always mean good and these changes within the game are hated for a huge reason.
Example of a good change. Castlevania DS games with the Metorid like system.
Example of a bad change. Spyro the Dragon's recent game. Skylanders comes horribly into mind.
Change doesn't always equal good and change doesn't mean that those horrible nasty evil people who grew up with Final Fantasy 6 or Final Fantasy 7 dislike the recent Final Fantasy games, because their horrible evil memories are blinding them from the recent games or awful changes with some recent games. AKA- Nostalgic Fags. :greenie:
Yeah I'm a little angry....
It's one of those things that's really difficult to narrow down to solid factual qualities when someone demands specific justifications for liking it (MLP, for those who like it, is similar. I can understand the comparison with love too).
I'd say it's a feeling of charm and excitement and that there's no single cause for it or even a small number of causes, but a wide, almost organic range of influences. Obvious ones are music, relate-able characters and story, but also a lot of little things that may even be subconscious. A "chemistry" or "soul" if you will.
Not at all, I was crazy over FFX and still think it's a fantastic game to this day, but I still say that's when the feel started to fade. FFXII didn't have it at all, but it's still a badass game.Quote:
Originally Posted by DMKA
I don't think Final Fantasy has a specific feel in the sense that any game with that feel would be a Final Fantasy. Some of the common things that have stood out to me in the FF games are a sense of adventure and whimsy, along with strong characters and story. In addition, I don't think any FF is complete without a strong complement of side quests. In the later games, some level of customization in character stats or abilities is also a component.
>>> FF feel... Im not sure if such thing exist..
Crystals, chocobos, Uematsu music? is probably the closest thing..:luca:
^ What about orphans? a multi-thousand year old threat that is returning to destroy the world?
The first nine games having play distributed across a total of three screens: field, battle, and world map.
Magic casting has essentially always been the same. We also have a fairly continuous repertoire of spells and, later, summons.
There are also certain motifs which were required in those first nine games: game over screeen, world map screen, and town themes, with these conveying similar emotions across games.
And of course there's the signature victory fanfare of the first six games with similar themes in other games. Uematsu has also reused specific melodies throughout the series.
There's certainly a recognizable style to the character portraits that Amano and Nomura have done for their Final Fantasy characters, with Nomura even citing Amano as the influence for some of his characters.
We can talk about the similar layouts of the menus, the little glove hand, the cursor sounds, the pedigree of the battle menus. The world maps and character control worked the same way for the first six games and then the same way for the next three games. Battle control has always been the same throughout the series.
Of course you can find bits and pieces here in other series. That's not a valid argument. That's like saying being in first person isn't an element of First Person Shooters because there's been some WRPGs in first person.
But more than anything, this is about feel. The first nine Final Fantasy games made me feel a similar way when I played them, and it seems like a lot of other posters on EoFF had a similar experience.