Too Much Lightning and FFXIII?

Since there isn't a general Final Fantasy XIII series forum I though I'd post it here.

So, does anyone think that they're focusing on Lightning a little too much lately?

A lot people on GameFAQs (I know, shoot me) think that Toriyama and the group are way too obsessed with Lightning (especially after the video that first revealed Lightning Returns), praising her as some sort of goddess and claiming she's the face of Square Enix. Although their comments are really exaggerated, I can't help but feel that they do have a point. I haven't played any of the FFXIII series games, but even so, I really think they shouldn't be focusing so much on one main entry of the series, especially when there was a lot of mixed reception for the original FFXIII. FFVII was also in a similar boat, but at least the original game had a big enough fan following to justify it. I can understand one sequel for other FFs like FFIV: The After Years and FFX-2, but a third game for a mainstream FF (with the first two games getting mixed reviews) seems like overkill.

I'm not trying to bash FFXIII or start any flame wars. Even if they were making a third game for my most favourite FF (FFIV), I'd still think it's too much. But what do you guys think about all this focus on FFXIII?

Way too much Lightning and FFXIII.

*gasp* Really...ya think?

I guess my thing is... please, more original content. I-IX didn't have sequels (except IV, and that was seventeen years after the fact, and of course VII, but I didn't really like that one either). X's sequel of X-2 was good, but was it really necessary? Why wasn't the story okay where it ended in X?

Those games without sequels were good enough to stand up on their own.

Also, I didn't like XIII. The battle system wasn't good enough its extreme linearity bothered the hell out of me, cliché character archetypes, and just-okay story.

Spend less time on this mess and just move on to FF XV and XVI already!

Not only way too much Lightning and FFXIII but we have far too much ports, remakes and homage. I am more bothered by constant stream of old games at the moment than i am with XIII games because after all they are still new games regardless the name or brand or whether i am interested in it or completely hate it. I think FF suffers from serious lack of new content.

it seems like there are some people actually interested in moving this series forward but if this was the case then why would we just use XIII games as scapegoat, why not add tons of ports, remakes and nostalgia for sake of sakes.

Yes. I didn't mind the original Final Fantasy 13 thinking that it was step above in my eyes the dreadful Final Fantasy 12. However Enix has gone nuts with this whole Lightning and FF13 thing. It wasn't even a excellent game, it had tons of flaws and not really worthy of all this attention and praise. Something like FF 6 should really be getting this, a Final Fantasy that is amazing and superb in every way and in every movement.

FF13 is not even bronze award material. And Lightning isn't even that great of a character. She's just Cloud with a female body. The face of SquareEnix games should be a character that isn't just flavour of the month and a character that is truly worth it.

Sometimes I think that SquareEnix are the only ones that really hardout love Lightning and her game. Like to obsessive amounts. I know that there is FF13 fans and Lightning fans, but even they are not as obsessive and delusional towards her and her game as SquareEnix are. It's like they are smoking some FF13 drug.

The only reason people think this is because they didn't like FF13 very much and just want to see it moved on from. Which is entirely fair enough, it obviously just makes for some hyperbole when discussing anything relating to it.

There are three FF13 related media (aside from Versus, but lol we'll discuss this when SE are willing to start discussing it). Nobody kicked up any kind of fuss when the FF7 compilation came around - which put the number of FF7 related media up to... what, 5? It's fine for them to milk money from the fans when it's the fan favourite, obviously. :p

Shauna - People definitely got annoyed at the plethora of FFVII spinoffs. I remember people getting sick of it pretty clearly. :p

I look at it both positively and negatively.

Positively
- I liked XIII & XIII-2, so I don't mind having more of these games (although Lightning was never my favourite character in XIII/XIII-2).
- I see XIII-2 and Lightning Returns as Square-Enix taking the time to figure out what players want from them. They were lambasted by many for XIII and I don't think they want to start working on XV until they know it's going to be better received. In the main series, not including sequels/prequels and MMOs, they have released just one single player numbered game in in six years. I believe these other XIII sequels/spinoffs are being made to get an understanding of the modern gamer and what they can do to please people. I think that once they have a better understanding, they will start to really push on a new game. By using XIII sequels/prequels, they can minimise costs that would be spent on concepts, design and development for monsters, worlds, lore, characters which they would have had to pay a lot for if they were to come up with a completely new game.

Neutrally
- I also see XIII-2, LR etc. as them paying off the development costs of XIII.

Negatively
- I find Lighting to be one of the least interesting XIII characters, with only Fang being less interesting and Hope being borderline.
- I really, really, really look forward to a completely new Final Fantasy single player game. ;_; I want to hear about it nowwwwwwwww!

I feel that the level of vitriol is elevated in this situation. xD People really hate this current iteration of Final Fantasy. But, I will admit that I am probably not remembering anything right. :p

I was also probably purposely prodding in my previous post, I definitely should have worded my second point better. I should really stop posting when I have been awake for like 10 minutes. xD

You're definitely right in that it's worse with this, not in that people are angry but in that people just don't care. xD

I'm sure part of the reason is it is quicker, easier, and cheaper to put out a sequel than to immediately move on to a new game in the modern gaming environment.

They are obsessing but it could be worse, they could be beating a long dead horse, digging it up, beating it again, violating it in horribly graphic ways.... kinda like what's happened to Final Fantasy VII, at least XIII-2 was a decent game unlike DoC.
They're pushing the whole XIII thing but not to the point its destroying all that the fans hold sacred... like Final Fantasy VII... Since, not many people actually like XIII in the first place so there's really not that much damage done.

With me, I enjoyed XIII, the characters, eventually, the story, eventually- yes, I am serious here! D:
Were pretty damn good and I rate it along with IV VII VIII and XII as a favourite of mine, I really enjoyed Lightning as a character, she was a return to the type of hero Cloud and Squall were, just a lot less socially retarded throughout the game and ending up as soppy and cringeworthy shadows of what made them iconic at the start of the game.

I would take Lightning well over the likes of the happy go lucky cheese heroes you see in things like One Piece, I'm talking Zidane, Tidus and Vaan (if you dare consider him a hero XD)

So, someone here, is going to reply here, pick out my points, counter them and question me about them all triggering a quote pyramid war. WELL I KNOW, I have seen the future and the future is orange, derp...

Right er, back to the point. I don't mind another XIII, especially one based on Lightning. I still hold its sequel well above the whole prequel/sequel thing that was shot into FFVII but hey, I'm talking bollocks, there's no way anyone can not love and speak great good of a game as perfect and flawless in every way imaginable such as the flagship game of the entire FF series that is VII, riiiiiiiight?

Ok... Well, that was fun.

You can say what you like about FFVII spinoffs or FFXIII, but slating Zidane is going too far!

Maybe so. I honestly never have liked him.

Square can't win with their main characters really - either some people don't like the Cloud/Squall types or people don't like the Zidane/Tidus types. Zidane has always been my favourite of the latter category though.

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Originally Posted by Loony BoB

- I see XIII-2 and Lightning Returns as Square-Enix taking the time to figure out what players want from them. They were lambasted by many for XIII and I don't think they want to start working on XV until they know it's going to be better received. In the main series, not including sequels/prequels and MMOs, they have released just one single player numbered game in in six years. I believe these other XIII sequels/spinoffs are being made to get an understanding of the modern gamer and what they can do to please people. I think that once they have a better understanding, they will start to really push on a new game. By using XIII sequels/prequels, they can minimise costs that would be spent on concepts, design and development for monsters, worlds, lore, characters which they would have had to pay a lot for if they were to come up with a completely new game.

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While I agree with this assessment I also feel that this is kind of stupid on SE's part because the only people SE is getting feedback from are the fans who happened to feel XIII wasn't so bad, these sequels are doing nothing to appeal to fans who felt XIII was rubbish and may have lost interest in the series. I feel continuing on like this to collect data is only going to give a very skewed idea of what the fanbase as whole wants and will instead continue on making games for a niche part of the fanbase as well as losing more widespread appeal to non-fans.

There has to be a balance between the 2 types to get the ultimate protagonist, if XV comes out and has another Tidus I might shoot someone XP

I honestly felt Lightning had a fair amount of substance, hell more than Cloud and Squall were. Cloud and Squall were badasses, but still wannabe Clint Eastwood style heroes. Beyond the whole big sword, strutting and anti social mercenary archetype they weren't really that much, they had their reasons I suppose. Cloud being an escaped labrat who due to mako was thinking he was Zak, Squall was an Orphan who's only friend left him, he became hardened and anti social but then turned into a cringeworthy, soppy love puppy...

Zidane, well, it was his "Just hit puberty, better try and get my leg over with every girl I run into" thing that got old so fast. It kinda ruined him for me a bit.

Tidus... ... ... daddy issues, awkwardly nightmare material laugh... do I need to say more?

I felt Lightning had a good bit of character in her. Why she didn't strangle Hope I still don't know, bonding to THAT like a little brother? WHY!? She should have killed him with fire. Maybe less people would hate her if she did that.
I enjoyed her hardfaced get on with it attitude but that it was a sort of escapism from guilt for spoiler things was a bit, well. A bit more than I expected of a sword waving, fight talking badass type of character. So. I look forward her game.

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Originally Posted by Wolf Kanno

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Originally Posted by Loony BoB

- I see XIII-2 and Lightning Returns as Square-Enix taking the time to figure out what players want from them. They were lambasted by many for XIII and I don't think they want to start working on XV until they know it's going to be better received. In the main series, not including sequels/prequels and MMOs, they have released just one single player numbered game in in six years. I believe these other XIII sequels/spinoffs are being made to get an understanding of the modern gamer and what they can do to please people. I think that once they have a better understanding, they will start to really push on a new game. By using XIII sequels/prequels, they can minimise costs that would be spent on concepts, design and development for monsters, worlds, lore, characters which they would have had to pay a lot for if they were to come up with a completely new game.

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While I agree with this assessment I also feel that this is kind of stupid on SE's part because the only people SE is getting feedback from are the fans who happened to feel XIII wasn't so bad, these sequels are doing nothing to appeal to fans who felt XIII was rubbish and may have lost interest in the series. I feel continuing on like this to collect data is only going to give a very skewed idea of what the fanbase as whole wants and will instead continue on making games for a niche part of the fanbase as well as losing more widespread appeal to non-fans.

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Better than risking the entire series by creating a brand new Final Fantasy game. And I think you associate all gamers with yourself perhaps too much in this instance. Some weren't very happy with XIII but still played XIII-2 and enjoyed it. Many critics throughout the internet could also easily offer them valid feedback. XIII was only loathed by a few, it was still generally liked but just not loved. I feel there were enough gamers playing XIII-2 to give a fair general assessment of things. It's a shame you won't play XIII-2 because I think you'd like it more than XIII, but having said that, I feel you have made up your mind about the game already.

Basically, SE have done the best they can in such a situation. What better alternative course of action would you suggest?

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Originally Posted by Shoden

I felt Lightning had a good bit of character in her. Why she didn't strangle Hope I still don't know, bonding to THAT like a little brother? WHY!? She should have killed him with fire. Maybe less people would hate her if she did that.
I enjoyed her hardfaced get on with it attitude but that it was a sort of escapism from guilt for spoiler things was a bit, well. A bit more than I expected of a sword waving, fight talking badass type of character. So. I look forward her game.

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Out of all of the "Serious character with a heart" stereotypes, I got Lightning the most. Perhaps it's just the superior storytelling on behalf of HD cutscenes and decent voice acting (Yeah X...) but I definitely got why she was so irritated at most things, because she had to protect Serah and had to deal with Snow, which would make anyone moody. I also understood her progression from attitude to actually caring about other people because being made a L'Cie makes you have to work together (even if it took up to chapter seven for them to get along)

As to the whole XIII business, perhaps it's because everyone is waiting on their hands for Versus XIII and any attempt at a sequel before Versus is just hated, because it isn't versus.

Merger. Whenever a company acquires another the first thing they want to do is exploit the portfolio. When Square became Square Enix, that's when X-2 happened, the first sequel, and from there it's been FFVII compilation, Ivalice Alliance, DS remakes, PSP ports, Kingdom Hearts handheld spinoffs, Dissidia and more and more Final Fantasy XIII.

It's natural for them to want to get more out of the years of work they put into making XIII, but you have to question why make it in the same universe.

I loved FFXIII and FFXIII-2, and look forward to Lightning Returns. It does seem like they're doing a "WE'RE GOING TO KEEP SHOWING THIS CHARACTER UNTIL YOU LIKE HER" thing though.

Which, I must say, is an odd response to the mixed reception FFXIII got. :p

Maybe they're waiting for next gen consoles.

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Originally Posted by charliepanayi

You can say what you like about FFVII spinoffs or FFXIII, but slating Zidane is going too far!

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This.

Zidane is smurfing king.

lightning is awesome
she's my lara croft
i'll buy anything with her in it
the only thing i was upset about in 13-2 was the terrible poems she read at the beginning of chapters, i thought they were trite and uninspired

It's good to see a lot of people agreeing.

As for all the ports of older games, I don't mind, but that's probably because the latest FF games have deviated from the original formula so much that it's good to still be able to buy classic FF style games in stores (even if they are just enhanced ports with bonus dungeons).

Another (good) point that GameFAQs members bring up, do you think that the new modern FF games have deviated from the original formula too much that they're alienating old fans? Maybe that's contributing to the "too much Lightning and FFXIII" feeling.

I haven't played any of the newer mainstream FF games (I stopped after VII since I couldn't find FFVIII and IX, and I don't own any consoles (or strong enough computers) to play FFX and onward) so I can't really talk from experience.

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Originally Posted by Loony BoB

Better than risking the entire series by creating a brand new Final Fantasy game. And I think you associate all gamers with yourself perhaps too much in this instance. Some weren't very happy with XIII but still played XIII-2 and enjoyed it. Many critics throughout the internet could also easily offer them valid feedback. XIII was only loathed by a few, it was still generally liked but just not loved. I feel there were enough gamers playing XIII-2 to give a fair general assessment of things. It's a shame you won't play XIII-2 because I think you'd like it more than XIII, but having said that, I feel you have made up your mind about the game already.

Basically, SE have done the best they can in such a situation. What better alternative course of action would you suggest?

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I honestly feel I could say the same about you associating your own thoughts about the fanbase and it's feelings for XIII and the franchise as being the de facto truth. :p

To answer your question though, simply make low cost new IPs to experiment with different gamestyles and to be honest it's not like SE hasn't been trying to do this(Bravery Default Flying Fairy looks to be trying to do this) but I feel they get too stuck up on high end graphical content when making the games which is what I felt made titles like The Last Remnant and Nier not as profitable or worthwhile. I understand that placing the FF moniker on a game will probably double the amount of units sold but I feel it's damaging the series rep. It's also not like they don't have a catalog of other brands to use either, I mean KH alone could be used to test graphical capabilities for new systems and get the teams better understanding on how to really maximize quality when they turn their attention to the FF series. Making even Chrono 3 would likely guarantee high sales and even if it's complete trout, they could still use it as a guinea pig for experimentation of gameplay mechanics. They don't have to use FF, let alone XIII. It's not like Square only made FF and Enix only made Dragon Quest. They should be exploiting side series that don't have much to lose with mainstream gamers as opposed to weakening their main flagship series.

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As for Evastio's questions about alienating older fans by deviating from the formula, I feel that is kind of complicated to fully answer but I will say that I feel one major issue of the series as of late is that people like Kitase are not really looking at the demographics and have prevented the series to really grow up. I feel the series is still stuck kind of in a pre-teen/teen mindset and the series no longer tries to really take the story or characters into complex places. For a story about dealing with inevitable fate/death, I feel FFXIII really kind of treated the topic with kids gloves, same as XII with political intrigue, it's nice they are addressing these topics but I can't help but feel like I'm seeing the Hallmark Children's After School special version as opposed to something I would see in actual literature or more daring film making.

The fanbase is getting older but Kitase and others in SE are still using the model they had over a decade ago when we were pre-teens. Which is stupid because between us and the pre-teens, we have disposable income so we're a much better market to cater to than jobless thirteen year olds. I mean part of the reason why the PSX was a big deal was cause games really started to focus on more adult themes in a meaningful way but they haven't really advanced much since that initial push. Final Fantasy needs to grow up more, maybe not some grim-dark everyone dies and the heroes deal with their drug addiction but honest to goodness lost, and seeing the characters never come to terms with their problems but simply choosing to live with it and watching how that affects them and their choices. I've mentioned before that I would love to see a love story about a relationship that has already come and gone, one filled with baggage and issues but just a flicker of fire that could renew it if both characters could just overcome their personal demons with each other, instead it's two youths meeting for the first time and falling in love as they live through a series of adventures and that's been the standard since the dawn of the medium.

This is not to say I feel Kitase has to cater to older crowds exclusively, if Pixar and early animation has shown the world anything, it's that it's possible to create stories that appeal to both adults and children and can still be profound. So it's possible to keep part of the same model but I feel SE needs to start throwing older fans a few bones and trusting younger fans that they are in fact mature enough to understand that finding answers in life isn't so easy and not everything works out in the end like you want it to.

I think there has been too much Lightning. I like her and all but having three XIII games come out before the next new single-player game is too much. The issue comes from too much time between releases. If they were working on FFXIII-3 at the same time as XV or even Versus then there would be less pressure from fans.

Wolf, I think the main idea of your post that they're handling adult stories with kiddie gloves is just coming down to opinion and we'll have to agree to disagree, because I thought FFXIII did a really great job of dealing with death and evil and how people react to it in different ways, as represented by each of the characters.

But I'm especially glad we finally agree on this:

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Originally Posted by Wolf Kanno

I mean part of the reason why the PSX was a big deal was cause games really started to focus on more adult themes in a meaningful way but they haven't really advanced much since that initial push.

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FINALLY! You're ready to admit that the evolution of storytelling started with the PSX generation!!!

Final Fantasy VII was a radical revolution.

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Originally Posted by Wolf Kanno

To answer your question though, simply make low cost new IPs to experiment with different gamestyles and to be honest it's not like SE hasn't been trying to do this(Bravery Default Flying Fairy looks to be trying to do this) but I feel they get too stuck up on high end graphical content when making the games which is what I felt made titles like The Last Remnant and Nier not as profitable or worthwhile. I understand that placing the FF moniker on a game will probably double the amount of units sold but I feel it's damaging the series rep. It's also not like they don't have a catalog of other brands to use either, I mean KH alone could be used to test graphical capabilities for new systems and get the teams better understanding on how to really maximize quality when they turn their attention to the FF series. Making even Chrono 3 would likely guarantee high sales and even if it's complete trout, they could still use it as a guinea pig for experimentation of gameplay mechanics. They don't have to use FF, let alone XIII. It's not like Square only made FF and Enix only made Dragon Quest. They should be exploiting side series that don't have much to lose with mainstream gamers as opposed to weakening their main flagship series.

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I'm going to have to agree with Wolf here. Even if we accept that Square-Enix are using these sequels as a way to experiment so they can figure out the fanbase, there are better ways than making sequels to a game that had a reception as mixed as FFXIII. Sure, some people who didn't like it much may have given FFXIII-2 a chance, but I'm more than willing to bet that the percentage of people who didn't like FFXIII and will not play any of the sequels because of it is higher. And in the end, experimenting with new IP's to see what catches on in smaller titles is probably a better idea anyway. It's cheaper, and you aren't going to have guaranteed sales simply by carrying the FF title colouring the data.

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Originally Posted by Bolivar

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Originally Posted by Wolf Kanno

I mean part of the reason why the PSX was a big deal was cause games really started to focus on more adult themes in a meaningful way but they haven't really advanced much since that initial push.

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FINALLY! You're ready to admit that the evolution of storytelling started with the PSX generation!!!

Final Fantasy VII was a radical revolution.

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Never change Bolivar. You keep beating that dead horse. :p:D

Very good, Vivi. That was the point of the joke.

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Originally Posted by Bolivar

Wolf, I think the main idea of your post that they're handling adult stories with kiddie gloves is just coming down to opinion and we'll have to agree to disagree, because I thought FFXIII did a really great job of dealing with death and evil and how people react to it in different ways, as represented by each of the characters.

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I feel if you compared XIII's handling of adult themes to other games like MGS4 and so forth, you would agree with me that XIII largely generalizes and simplifies it's conflict even it's "obviously going to have a downer ending" is saved at the last minute by a Deus ex Machina as opposed to FFX that promised it from the start and delivered it in the end.

XIII could have touched on a ton of themes but largely ignored it and stuck to a story about a bunch of people being tasked to do something they don't want to do, even the fate of a l'Cie is marginalized a few hours in when you find out that they are not really facing death, just servitude in stasis or becoming a monster. It's childish.

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But I'm especially glad we finally agree on this:

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Originally Posted by Wolf Kanno

I mean part of the reason why the PSX was a big deal was cause games really started to focus on more adult themes in a meaningful way but they haven't really advanced much since that initial push.

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FINALLY! You're ready to admit that the evolution of storytelling started with the PSX generation!!!

Final Fantasy VII was a radical revolution.

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This is just how I manipulate you, I just say something positive about something you feel is great and suddenly you will listen to me. :p

BoB: Concerning XIII-2, I do agree I would probably enjoy it more than XIII at least as a game but the story doesn't interest me and I honestly don't care for Lightning or Serah as characters, not to mention it's plot is basically a "let's justify the original game's poorly written ending" doesn't set well with my principles as a writer. So the plot is just going to make playing that game a headache for me. I learned my lesson with X-2 that sequels don't fix characters, I doubt the story is going to give me reason to change my mind about XIII's cast cause most of SE's sequels haven't thus far, of anything they have made me dislike characters even more so.

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Originally Posted by Wolf Kanno

I learned my lesson with X-2 that sequels don't fix characters

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As evidenced with X-2's rikkunervation of Yuna. Seriously, watching half those scenes is close to unbearable and I was tempted to skip the scenes, then I learned that I was then penalised for it by not giving me the percentage.