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So I realize CT is largely considered to be one of the best JRPGs eve but I was thinking of starting with Chrono Cross simply because a friend of mine who also really enjoys Xenogears just played CC without playing CT and he said it was really good.
I've also talked to others who say that Cross is a better game as long as you don't really associate it with Trigger.
Any recommendations?
I recommend you stop talking to these people.
There is no reason to not play Chrono Trigger. Unless you hate great games.
I don't really understand the crowd who thinks Chrono Cross works better without CT cause while major events are kind of explained in game, the final antagonist and why everything went to hell in a handbasket is pretty much directly the result of CT. Hell the whole point of CC is basically to answer the few lingering questions left unanswered in CT. Though I guess I'm odd cause I'm also one of the few Chrono fans that likes both games even if I feel CC has more misfires.
Technically you can understand CC's plot without playing CT, but you kind of lose the impact of some of the story elements cause the Orphanage section doesn't really mean anything to you if you never played Trigger, and certain major character name drops and appearances also lose any relevance since they are out of context.
I say play them in order but I'm a stickler for crap like that.
Both are fantastic games, and for reasons stated by WK you should play them in order. :)
Play Chrono Trigger because it is an awesome game, but play it separately from CC.
Play Chrono Cross because it's pretty.
The problem is that, while it does give you more foundation, the foundation it gives you is extremely unstable. None of Chrono Cross's story, from the very basic setup point that the entire world is based around ((SPOILER)Porre defeating Guardia because Dalton went back in time and took it over for revenge) makes any sense to anyone who's played Chrono Trigger.Quote:
Originally Posted by Wolf Kanno
It does not hold up. When you don't get the background, you can fill in the blanks on your own. It's not ideal, but you can make it work. When you have the background, you just go "Oh, that's bull$#!+".
Square did too much to distance Cross from Trigger. The characters are tossed off with brief mentions, the events and themes are largely ignored, and the entire world is reshaped into something completely different. NONE OF IT MAKES ANY SENSE. Unless you haven't played Trigger yet.
But, yeah, play Trigger first. Sure, it'll ruin Cross's entire setup and world, but who cares? Chrono Trigger is simply awesome. Play it now, and pretend Cross is it's own IP when you get to it. Then go play Trigger some more.
I'm with Wolf here. I think a fair amount of Cross is better knowing the story behind Trigger.
And I think Trigger is the better game anyway, though both are fun and worth playing.
Explain: (SPOILER)How did Dalton possibly build a tiny town into a military force capable of taking over Guardia in five years? Especially given that Crono, Lucca, and Nadia are each capable of destroying Lavos on their own, and Dalton is the most pathetic boss/leader in the game?Quote:
Originally Posted by NeoCracker
If you can't explain that, how can you possibly come to terms with any of the other nonsensical references that twist and distort what Chrono Trigger gave us?
I think playing Chrono Cross first, then going back to Chrono Trigger and starting to see all the references would be kind of cool. I don't think playing Chrono Trigger first will hugely contribute tho the enjoyment of Chrono Cross, as most of the direct links are either of marginal importance or stupid.
Though to be honest I don't really think you can go wrong as long as you play both in the end.
I would do them in order. Neither of them are long games. Not only is Chrono Trigger alone more enjoyable, but playing Chrono Cross after beating Chrono Trigger makes you enjoy them both a little more. It'll DEFINITELY help you understand Chrono Cross better. I suppose you could play Chrono Cross on its own, but.....why?
(SPOILER)Quote:
Originally Posted by SkybladeExplain: (SPOILER)How did Dalton possibly build a tiny town into a military force capable of taking over Guardia in five years? Especially given that Crono, Lucca, and Nadia are each capable of destroying Lavos on their own, and Dalton is the most pathetic boss/leader in the game?Quote:
Originally Posted by NeoCracker
If you can't explain that, how can you possibly come to terms with any of the other nonsensical references that twist and distort what Chrono Trigger gave us?
1. He had access to both the magic of the past and the technology of the future. This is a huge advantage.
2. We know nothing of his actual plans to win past that.
3. Fighting one thing is a different beast entirely then fighting off armies. It's not so bad considering he could have tried a war of attrition.
4. Don't forget he had the assistance of Lynx and Harle during this time, it was hardly just Dalton. An agent of Fate and one of the worlds Dragons are a bit of a scale tipper.
Your move Skyblade. ;P
Damn Skyblade, you're really hung up on that issue aren't you. (SPOILER)Don't forget that Dalton was actually a fairly competent villain up until the showdown with him on the Blackbird, petty maybe but its not like he was a comic relief character the whole time he was in the story. Its also not like Fate was dealing with Lucca doesn't mean it may not have decided to deal with Crono and Marle as well. Course my own personal interpretation is that some other major catastrophe happened before Guardia was attacked, that drove Crono and Marle away, this is largely why I want a Chrono 3 cause I feel Kato would have to answer these questions since Cross ultimately created so many loose ends despite the main plot trying to tie up CT's loose plot threads.
Other than that, I don't really mind CC, though I definitely feel that working on Xenogears seriously changed Masato Kato's writing style. CC's writing is definitely more in line with Xenogears (complex themes and heavy philosophical banter) compared to CT's more charming and simple narrative. Still, I like the contrast between CT largely embody the themes of adventure and determination as opposed to CC's more cynical and cautionary themes. Though I do feel Kato was pretty bad about sucking the subtlety out of some of his environmental themes. The scenario with the Dwarfs and Fairies is a bit anvilicious...
I haven't completed chrono cross yet, but hearing the music from chrono trigger in it was enough to make me instantly fall in love with the game.
Chrono Trigger is the game that got me into old school JRPGs and it is still to this day the best to me. It has lots of replayability and there are so many Double and Triple Techs to experiment on.
I really have to agree with Wolf too, since without playing CT first, you will miss a lot on the plot of CC.
(SPOILER)1. He fell through a time gate with nothing but the clothes on his back. He had access to his own magic, which is completely pitiful and only does anything when he manages to get your party with a "look over there" move. He had access to zero technology and magic outside of that, and he had little brains, having stolen the Blackbird and the Epoch, rather than developed anything himself.Quote:
Originally Posted by NeoCracker(SPOILER)Quote:
Originally Posted by SkybladeExplain: (SPOILER)How did Dalton possibly build a tiny town into a military force capable of taking over Guardia in five years? Especially given that Crono, Lucca, and Nadia are each capable of destroying Lavos on their own, and Dalton is the most pathetic boss/leader in the game?Quote:
Originally Posted by NeoCracker
If you can't explain that, how can you possibly come to terms with any of the other nonsensical references that twist and distort what Chrono Trigger gave us?
1. He had access to both the magic of the past and the technology of the future. This is a huge advantage.
2. We know nothing of his actual plans to win past that.
3. Fighting one thing is a different beast entirely then fighting off armies. It's not so bad considering he could have tried a war of attrition.
4. Don't forget he had the assistance of Lynx and Harle during this time, it was hardly just Dalton. An agent of Fate and one of the worlds Dragons are a bit of a scale tipper.
Your move Skyblade. ;P
2. Golems. That's about it.
3. Except... You face armies. You wipe the floor with Magus's army, remember? Or what about the Robot armies in the future? You know, the ones about seven times more powerful than Dalton's cronies, yet you can still annihilate with a single spell?
4. Both being inferior in power to Lavos, and therefore not enough of a balance tipper to upset anything.
Even worse, however, is that the game doesn't even attempt to handle this issue. It makes no explanation, the characters have no appearance or presence in the game at all. It just goes "Yeah, this stuff happened. Deal with it, and please don't ask why these incredibly powerful, important people are never ever going to be seen during the entire plot".
It feels like the developers were intimidated by Chrono Trigger. Like they felt that actually using anything from that game might be seen as ruining it by their fans, and cause an outcry. As a result they handled everything from Chrono Trigger with a fifty foot pole. And because of that, the entire thing feels really, really weird. It's a sequel that's afraid to be a sequel. It's too scared to actually step up to the role it was given, and so it can never do more than sit in the shadow of a much better game.
Chrono Cross exists in limbo, unsure if it wants to be a sequel, a spin-off, or a new world. Its references to Chrono Trigger are poorly handled and minimalistic. And yet the two games are still tied closely enough together that Chrono Cross's flaws are also measured and judged by Chrono Trigger's, a comparison that will always leave Chrono Cross wanting.
And that is why I think Chrono Cross is better enjoyed on its own. Because, while it does have some gaps and missing backstory, taken as its own game, it has to stand on its own, and can do so. Taken together with Chrono Trigger, it is a toddler standing for the first time, unsure if it needs its parent's help or not.
Although, again, none of this matters, because regardless of the best way to play Chrono Cross, the best decision for anyone who hasn't played Chrono Trigger yet is to GO PLAY IT NOW. As in, immediately.
[QUOTE=Skyblade;3193895](SPOILER)1. He fell through a time gate with nothing but the clothes on his back. He had access to his own magic, which is completely pitiful and only does anything when he manages to get your party with a "look over there" move. He had access to zero technology and magic outside of that, and he had little brains, having stolen the Blackbird and the Epoch, rather than developed anything himself.Quote:
Originally Posted by NeoCracker(SPOILER)Quote:
Originally Posted by SkybladeExplain: (SPOILER)How did Dalton possibly build a tiny town into a military force capable of taking over Guardia in five years? Especially given that Crono, Lucca, and Nadia are each capable of destroying Lavos on their own, and Dalton is the most pathetic boss/leader in the game?Quote:
Originally Posted by NeoCracker
If you can't explain that, how can you possibly come to terms with any of the other nonsensical references that twist and distort what Chrono Trigger gave us?
1. He had access to both the magic of the past and the technology of the future. This is a huge advantage.
2. We know nothing of his actual plans to win past that.
3. Fighting one thing is a different beast entirely then fighting off armies. It's not so bad considering he could have tried a war of attrition.
4. Don't forget he had the assistance of Lynx and Harle during this time, it was hardly just Dalton. An agent of Fate and one of the worlds Dragons are a bit of a scale tipper.
Your move Skyblade. ;P
2. Golems. That's about it.
3. Except... You face armies. You wipe the floor with Magus's army, remember? Or what about the Robot armies in the future? You know, the ones about seven times more powerful than Dalton's cronies, yet you can still annihilate with a single spell?
4. Both being inferior in power to Lavos, and therefore not enough of a balance tipper to upset anything.
(SPOILER)
1. He could view the different time periods, which is how he found out about you. It's not to much of a stretch to assume he could have used this chance to grap who knows what from the future. Remember, in Cross they did have Robots to fight with.
2. It's vague what exactly Dalton was able to do in this time rift he was it. It's presumptious to assume ONLY him and his magic was available.
3. As the rulers of Guardia, Chrono and Marle weren't likely on the front lines. Their advantage here is also kind of reduced by, I don't know, Dalton and Lynx's tendancy to not fight fair? We saw lynx's infiltration of Viper manor in Chrono Cross, and you must realize he fights dirty.
4. In context of the story, Lavos isn't beaten in a one on one fight. It's 3 of your people that do it. If we assume Frog was there at the time as well, it's a matter of isolation. Getting them picked off one at a time. Considering the strength of Harle and Lynx, and again the removal of fair fighting, more then conceivable this becomes possible.
5. Also, Dalton knows the kind of Magic Chrono, Marle, and Frog are all capable of. He also has the advantage in preparing for that, something Lavos had no way of doing. ;P
6. Finally, you are assuming Chrono, Marle, and frog were all still Full bore, and ready to handle the enemies when the fight started.
Don't get me wrong, I agree that there should be more explanation. The biggest problem here is not the lack of plausability of this happening, it's the lack of details given. There are several different things that could have caused this to happen, its simply the fact we aren't told what it was that creates problems. Theres to many way open wholes in their explination to give any real clue as to how it happens.
I'm simply saying that while this was a pretty poor way to explain the events with the two games, but it hardly creates some giant mess of nonsense.
Who are you?
Have you played it before?
Did you not have time to play it at all?
You might want to play the first game to understand some plots behind the second game. Though it's up to the author to determine what order a universe plays out.
Chrono Trigger grabbed onto me better even if I dismissed it in it's sequel. People into graphics might enjoy Chrono Cross better because it was made in the future of the original obviously.
[QUOTE=NeoCracker;3193971]That's my point, though. Not that it's a complete wreck, but that it handles things so poorly that it weakens itself. It doesn't build off Chrono Trigger. It references it. It wants you to know that it's in the same continuity. But it doesn't work with that continuity.Quote:
Originally Posted by Skyblade(SPOILER)1. He fell through a time gate with nothing but the clothes on his back. He had access to his own magic, which is completely pitiful and only does anything when he manages to get your party with a "look over there" move. He had access to zero technology and magic outside of that, and he had little brains, having stolen the Blackbird and the Epoch, rather than developed anything himself.Quote:
Originally Posted by NeoCracker(SPOILER)Quote:
Originally Posted by SkybladeExplain: (SPOILER)How did Dalton possibly build a tiny town into a military force capable of taking over Guardia in five years? Especially given that Crono, Lucca, and Nadia are each capable of destroying Lavos on their own, and Dalton is the most pathetic boss/leader in the game?Quote:
Originally Posted by NeoCracker
If you can't explain that, how can you possibly come to terms with any of the other nonsensical references that twist and distort what Chrono Trigger gave us?
1. He had access to both the magic of the past and the technology of the future. This is a huge advantage.
2. We know nothing of his actual plans to win past that.
3. Fighting one thing is a different beast entirely then fighting off armies. It's not so bad considering he could have tried a war of attrition.
4. Don't forget he had the assistance of Lynx and Harle during this time, it was hardly just Dalton. An agent of Fate and one of the worlds Dragons are a bit of a scale tipper.
Your move Skyblade. ;P
2. Golems. That's about it.
3. Except... You face armies. You wipe the floor with Magus's army, remember? Or what about the Robot armies in the future? You know, the ones about seven times more powerful than Dalton's cronies, yet you can still annihilate with a single spell?
4. Both being inferior in power to Lavos, and therefore not enough of a balance tipper to upset anything.
(SPOILER)
1. He could view the different time periods, which is how he found out about you. It's not to much of a stretch to assume he could have used this chance to grap who knows what from the future. Remember, in Cross they did have Robots to fight with.
2. It's vague what exactly Dalton was able to do in this time rift he was it. It's presumptious to assume ONLY him and his magic was available.
3. As the rulers of Guardia, Chrono and Marle weren't likely on the front lines. Their advantage here is also kind of reduced by, I don't know, Dalton and Lynx's tendancy to not fight fair? We saw lynx's infiltration of Viper manor in Chrono Cross, and you must realize he fights dirty.
4. In context of the story, Lavos isn't beaten in a one on one fight. It's 3 of your people that do it. If we assume Frog was there at the time as well, it's a matter of isolation. Getting them picked off one at a time. Considering the strength of Harle and Lynx, and again the removal of fair fighting, more then conceivable this becomes possible.
5. Also, Dalton knows the kind of Magic Chrono, Marle, and Frog are all capable of. He also has the advantage in preparing for that, something Lavos had no way of doing. ;P
6. Finally, you are assuming Chrono, Marle, and frog were all still Full bore, and ready to handle the enemies when the fight started.
Don't get me wrong, I agree that there should be more explanation. The biggest problem here is not the lack of plausability of this happening, it's the lack of details given. There are several different things that could have caused this to happen, its simply the fact we aren't told what it was that creates problems. Theres to many way open wholes in their explination to give any real clue as to how it happens.
I'm simply saying that while this was a pretty poor way to explain the events with the two games, but it hardly creates some giant mess of nonsense.
(SPOILER)Granted, my attacks on that setup are an extreme end, but look at what we have to work with. Dalton was comic relief, for pretty much the entire game. He's at his best early on, but even then, he's completely overshadowed by Queen Zeal, the Prophet, and Schala. He's introduced as a henchmen, starts one decent boss fight, and that's it.
From then on, he's nothing but comedy. He commands some of the most pathetic forces in the game. His big showdowns are played for laughs. He is outright shown to be ineffectual against the heroes. He cracks the fourth wall, summons the most hilarious non-fight in the game, and gets the Chrono Trigger equivalent of Palmer getting hit by a truck. He's the equivalent of Gilgamesh, Ultros, Palmer, Biggs & Wedge, heck, he's LeBlanc from X-2.
You can't just change a character like that into a credible threat without explanation. And Chrono Cross explains none of its connections to Chrono Trigger. They're just there, and you have to live with them.
For that matter, what does it do to help the story? How does it serve the narrative at all? The kingdom and setting are largely unimportant. The locations are so radically different that they hold no connection to Chrono Trigger in the first place. The only reason I can see for it is something they can use to explain the absence of the major characters from Chrono Trigger ((SPOILER)And didn't they hurt those characters enough by basically making the entire journey in Chrono Trigger hurt the entire spacetime continuum?). If the game had opened up, and we were told that Guardia ruled instead of Porre, would it change anything? Set it long enough ahead that our beloved king dies and explain that his kid (or grankid) is a dictatorial jerk. Would it change the story massively? It's not like it needed the close connection to the events of Chrono Trigger. The game's about bloody time travel, you can set it whenever you dang well please.
And, yes, I do assume that everyone's still near full power. It was only five years. That's not a long time. Make it forty or something and you might have an excuse. But five? That's pretty much the least opportune time. It's enough time to settle everyone into their new roles, so there's no organizational trouble to handle, yet nowhere near enough time for the characters to weaken to the point of complete incompetence.
Why do the connections to Chrono Trigger exist? Why do they introduce them if they're not going to use them? What purpose do they serve, except to connect Chrono Cross to a game that is nearly entirely separate? It doesn't work its way up from Chrono Trigger, it works a different world with different rules and different characters and smashes it into Chrono Trigger with an audible "clunk".
It should have picked a direction. A new game with its own setting, a spin off in the same "universe", but with basically no other ties, or an actual sequel that builds off what came before, and it doesn't. And that is the fatal flaw that drags down the entire game. It doesn't know how to handle its connection with its predecessor, and it shows.
List of things that could cause a person to lose strength over the course of 5 years.
1) Disease
2) Poison
3) Not actively fighting (Only a year of this would be enough to make a visable difference.)
4) Slipping on a bananna peal and breaking a leg.
Reasons someone weaker may have beaten Chrono?
1) Poison
2) Being forced to protect those around you, who are serving as only a hinderance.
3) Sneak attacks.
...And the connections to Chrono Trigger exist because the entirety of everything that happens in this game is directly the result of the end of Chrono Trigger. Really the only problem comes in the lack of explanation about Guardia. I think even the past people were used very well.
(SPOILER)
Kid was keeping watch over, and protecting, Kid/Schala.
A large part of what ran FATE was Robo, The Prometheous Unit.
Harle, one of the dragons and in sense, a portion of Lavos/Time Devourer, took measures to handle Chrono and Marle before they could intervene in the plans.
I'll leave it at that. :p
It can't be all things to all people. Even us today and me.
When I was a kid I loved the wonder about the game. I was drawn into it.
Now that I'm older and wiser I couldn't care less about some of the sub-plots and details that leads to the ultimate ending based on what the creators plan for us at some point.
One last thing that just crossed my mind, and probably the single biggest factor in this.
(SPOILER)Fate. Fate can, to an extent at the very least, have direct influence on the events of the world. Remember, Serge is the only exception to this. As far as I know, Crono may not have a way personally to counter act Fates meddling.
Play chrono trigger first because it's fun! Well they both are but play it for the fun! Not for any reason other than that ^_^
Hopefully FL has stopped posting in this thread because he's too busy playing Chrono Trigger.
Actually i'm holding off on either CT or CC because I'm starting to watch Evangelion for the first time.
You have chosen...poorly.
SO poorly.Quote:
Originally Posted by Del Murder
I hope you at least have access to End of Evangelion because episodes twenty-five and twenty-six are godawful. Unlike Chrono Trigger, which is just great all around.Quote:
Originally Posted by Forsaken Lover
Yep, I have it. I got it almost a year ago which is why I realized that maybe it's time I finally watch NGE.
And you Indiana Jones guys should remember Evangelion is only 26 episodes long.
I can watch that in a couple days. I could still start Chrono this week. I don't know if I will but I'll definitely pick it up sometime this month.
Play Chrono Trigger. Don't play Chrono Cross. It will just make you cry.... not in the " Oh Aeris just died " sad the " Oh god, why are they doing this to my favourite characters from CT " sad....
You did right, buddy. I will never understand the hype for CT, and this is from a guy who played it about a year after it first came out.Quote:
Originally Posted by Forsaken Lover
Wrong answer.Quote:
Originally Posted by PolnareffYou did right, buddy. I will never understand the hype for CT, and this is from a guy who played it about a year after it first came out.Quote:
Originally Posted by Forsaken Lover
Play CT, then play CC. CC is a great game in its own right (although not as good as CT), but as others have said it will make zero sense without CT.
There is no reason to not play Chrono Trigger, it is simply the ultimate 16-bit RPG. And this is from a guy who played it for the first time in '06.
I played chrono trigger years ago and when one of my friends was telling me about his playthrough I had absolutely no idea what he was talking about. I'm worried that if I play Cross I'm not going to get any of the fanservice...
You forgot the word "Trigger" in that sentence.Quote:
Originally Posted by Forsaken Lover
I think CC is a self contained enough story, so I don't think it'll make Zero Sense. :pQuote:
Originally Posted by The ManWrong answer.Quote:
Originally Posted by PolnareffYou did right, buddy. I will never understand the hype for CT, and this is from a guy who played it about a year after it first came out.Quote:
Originally Posted by Forsaken Lover
Play CT, then play CC. CC is a great game in its own right (although not as good as CT), but as others have said it will make zero sense without CT.
Just a lot is added by having played CT.
Then replay Chrono Trigger? xD It's always a good time to replay Chrono Trigger. :monster:Quote:
Originally Posted by Bolivar
That depends on who you ask, I actually prefer the low budget avant garde final two episodes over the over-the-top snuff films that are the Eva movies.Quote:
Originally Posted by JowyI hope you at least have access to End of Evangelion because episodes twenty-five and twenty-six are godawful. Unlike Chrono Trigger, which is just great all around.Quote:
Originally Posted by Forsaken Lover
They're both good games. Both worth playing. And it doesn't matter a bit which you play first.
If you had to pick only one, it would have to be CT though, as it's simply one of the best.I understand this sentence seems to end abruptly, best what exactly?--but it speaks for itself
CC is great, but I think it's harder to get into than CT. Both games have tons of payoff though, and I wish they would have continued making them. Yeah, I'm a glutton.
Just remember, episodes 25 and 26 were done on a budget of zero. At least as I heard it, the network that originally aired it did so without paying too much attention to the premise, assuming giant robots = kids show. (I seem to recall hearing that it's original timeslot was right next to the ninja turtles.) The show's production was strapped for cash the entire way through, and was frequently criticized for being unsuitable for children; and after the events of episode 24 the network more or less took away the show's budget. When the show re-aired at a late night timeslot, then it became popular, enough so that End of Evangelion was produced. That's how I heard it anyway.
And when you're done, play Chrono Trigger dangit! There's no good reason to wait on that!