Final Fantasy Sexism Part II: The Early Years of Gender Roles

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In my last article, I introduced the topic of sexism in Final Fantasy, and tried to give an overview of why it’s a topic worth discussing. I mentioned three different types of sexism that I will be mentioning throughout this series: women as sex objects (aesthetics), limiting female characters to stereotypical gender roles, and the frequent dependence of female characters on more significant male characters for relevance to the overall plot. In this part, which is based on the NES and SNES era of the Final Fantasy series – and so before the ability to plaster big boobs all over the screen – I will be focusing on gender roles and stereotypes.

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And even those feminine jobs are distractions for a woman’s true
fulltime job: cleaning, cooking, and baby-making.

Based on some of the comments I received in Part I, I want to clarify something: having a female character as a weak healer is not, by itself, sexist. Healers are an important archetype of RPGs, and someone has to be them. But women are 50% of the population (in real life and, presumably, in most video game worlds). When they are disproportionately placed in weaker, gender stereotypical roles, video game writers are limiting the roles women play in these make-believe worlds based on real life cultural sexism, whether consciously or unconsciously. Additionally, female characters are often shoved into cookie-cutter personality types based on this pervasive sexism, the most common one being the damsel in distress.

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The female weakness stereotype not only is sexist itself, but serves to emphasize
women’s perceived dependence on men.

My hope is that this series will allow you to see how women have been portrayed in the aggregate, and how that industry standard is a result of underlying sexist biases and stereotypes. The point to this series is not to say that women should never be the healer or the love interest, but that female characters should be given the variety and depth and significance that their male counterparts have always received.

Now, on to the games, shall we?

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The physically weak White Mage from FFI was female if only because 8-bit theater said so.

Note: Due to space, I’m not going to thoroughly analyze every game and female character. If I skimp on a game or character, it is because anything I could say had already been covered by other examples, or I have less experience with the game.

In Final Fantasy IV, there is Rosa, the classic medieval love interest, who represents the damsel in distress, one of the most common archetypes for female characters since well before video games were invented (think woman-tied-to-the-railroad-tracks in early films). This character type not only serves to emphasize stereotypical gender roles (women as weaker and in need of men to save them), but also the third type of sexism I started this piece with: dependence on male characters. The purpose of the damsel in distress icon is to give the hero someone to save and love. Her significance to the story revolves entirely around the hero’s affection – without it, she is nothing. Princess Peach is the iconic damsel in distress of video games.

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Rosa and Cecil from a later remake’s FMV opening. She is presumably eager to get to the rescuing.

In FFIV, Rosa, the daughter of a wealthy Baron, became a White Mage in order to fight by the side of her lover, the main character Cecil. Rosa’s relevance revolves around her relationship with Cecil. While she has some potential uses in battle, her main purpose in the plot is to love Cecil and get in trouble (more than once!) and require saving.

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Rydia of Mist looking more sexy than powerful.

Rydia of Mist, on the other hand, was a much more capable character plot-wise, being a central character of the game with a unique and engaging story. One of the last Summoners born in Mist, Rydia joined the story as a child when the Dark Knights Cecil and Kain are ordered to destroy her village. A powerful magic-user, she also breaks free from the emotional healer trope, though was still limited to the physically weak stereotype. While Rydia was not emotional and needy, she was instead mystical and unrelatable; the player was clearly intended to relate to Cecil. And while Rydia’s adult version requires little saving, her outfit is miniscule and impractical, marking the beginnings of the “women as sex object” purpose for females’ clothing.

Another stereotypically female role was introduced in Final Fantasy V: the impulsive princess, in the form of Lenna Tycoon. She’s also the most caring and emotional member of the party, risking her life throughout the game to save wind drakes. That is presented in the game as commendable, but it is notable that it is, of course, a female character who was touched so much by her mother’s death and cares so much about the drakes. And one of the most cookie-cutter character types in the game came in the form of Krile/Cara, who began the perky and bratty kid mold that will show up in every damn game after this one for the next decade.

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Lenna and Faris concept art by Yoshitaka Amano.

The most interesting female character in the game was Faris, the badass, cross-dressing pirate who is later revealed as Lenna’s sister. While it is true that Faris was a strong pirate, it should be noted that apparently the only way Faris could be taken seriously in her male-dominated occupation – to both the world of FFV and gamers – was if she dressed like a man, and her reveal as a woman was meant as a surprising plot twist. Faris was certainly a notable and interesting character and did break some common molds, but overall is not the progressive character she may seem at first glance.

Final Fantasy VI did break some new ground: the main character, Terra Branford, is a woman! Half-human and half-Esper, Terra joins the fight against the Empire when her Slave Crown is removed at the beginning of the game. She is a devastatingly powerful magic-user, she’s actually not all the weak in battle, but that has more to do with FFVI’s ease than her innate physical prowess; her base strength stat is still among the lowest in the game.

FFVI does earn points for Terra’s central story having nothing to do with a man; she is not just a love interest, and though while often confused by love, she is the central character to the plot. Of course, she still manages to get herself into trouble and require rescuing, yet another gender stereotype. When was the last time a male character was captured?

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Terra from the Anthologies remake.

But that isn’t even the worst example of Terra's sexism, as she is still ridden by emotional issues. Later in the game, Terra reacts to depression and feelings of guilt by losing her ability to fight. She only regains the will and ability to continue on through her love of children. That plot twist is not only corny, but emphasizes how women are considered: emotional and nurturing, even the powerful half-Esper.

Additionally, what progressiveness Terra represented was somewhat diminished by the fact that the vast majority of the large amount of other playable characters in the game are male. One exception is Relm, another physically weak magic user (albeit through art), who continued the bratty kid mold started with Krile in FFV. Keep that one in mind as we work our way through the series.

The other exception is Celes Chere. At first glance, Celes is a significant improvement from most other female characters until that time. A General for the Empire, she becomes disillusioned with the Empire and joins the Returners in their fight. Celes is a capable physical fighter, one of the few in these early Final Fantasy games. However, like Faris, she is not immune from sexist stereotypes. After originally renouncing the Empire, she arguably starts her career with the good guys by, of course, having to be rescued.

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Celes from an FMV of the Anthologies remake.

The General fits two other gender-based tropes. First, she is a typically emotional character, falling in love with Locke and later becoming so despondent that she tries to commit suicide. Earlier, I mentioned how Terra loses her will and ability to fight when she became depressed. A male character, Setzer, on the other hand, simply drinks a lot after he loses his ship.

And, like Faris, despite being a physical fighter, Celes’s appearance and attire are still distinctly feminine, unlike more modern and consistent mold-breakers like Game of Thrones’s Brienne.

So in the Final Fantasy games I’ve discussed so far, there have been nine female playable characters (ten if you count FFI’s White Mage), and all but one that has had pre-defined roles and abilities (read: outside of FFV) has been relatively physically weak, and even Lenna and Krile from FFV have the lowest base strength stats in the game. Celes and Faris are the only ones who can be said to break the mold, and Faris had to dress up as a man to make herself believable in that world, and even Celes had some stereotypically feminine emotional issues.

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While not always seen as negative, the emotional stereotype is commonly perceived as a weakness.

This is no accident: women were considered weak, emotional figures, and if they were to be in the story at all, it was generally as a mage and a damsel in distress in need of rescuing. Male characters, on the other hand, were everything from knights to thieves to gamblers to, oh yes, magic-users. They were everything women were allowed to be, and more. This is my biggest criticism of the early Final Fantasy games: female characters were not given the full breadth of personalities and story roles that male characters were given. Unfortunately, this will not stop anytime soon. In fact, the PS1 just introduced an emphasis on a different type of sexism: the overt sexualization of every female character.

So what did you think of this week? Was the early use of gender roles really that sexist? Is Faris a mold breaker or does she only emphasize the use of gender roles? Was I wrong about everything? Despite her stereotypical emphasis on feelings, how badass was Terra? Discuss all that in the comments.

Be sure to tune in two weeks for Part III, where I dive into the PS1 and the beginning of the PS2 era of Final Fantasy, which takes female dependence on male characters, as well as cleavages, to all-new lows.


Other parts in this series:

Part I


Unless otherwise credited, all FF images are from The Final Fantasy Wiki

Very in-depth Article; I really enjoyed it. Can't wait to hear what you have to say about Tifa, Aerith, and especially Rikku.

Interesting point about male characters being able to be whoever they want to be. As I see it, the only main game male character who is either in a "feminine" job class or behaves as a damsel in distress is Minwu. He's the only white mage male I can think of.

I guess Kefka is surprisingly feminine for a evil villain as well, I guess.

True, there is a lack of male healers, which only furthers the gender-based stereotyping. Women are perceived as the ones who are weak and nurturing.

But I was mostly referring to the fact that there are, and it was not at all notable to have, physically weak and magic-based male characters (starting with Black Mage in FFI), but relatively few strong female characters.

That being said, you're exactly right that it is rare for men to have effeminate personalities, even in modern times; as I said in my intro piece, it's more acceptable today for women to act "masculine," but it's still commonly derided for men to act "feminine." For example, a little girl playing with "male toys" (such as sporting goods or dinosaurs) would not be looked at twice today, but a little boy playing with Barbies and baby dolls? That would disturb a lot of people.

Very well made point there actually. I guess female characters can be very powerful and strong, just not in your typical "strong-man" way. For example, Lulu in FFX was a very strong mage, who for me was my main damage-dealer along with Auron for much of the game.

While female characters can be shoehorned into "magical" roles, which I find slightly odd, it's important to remember that those magical roles can be bloody powerful ones.

I know it's early days and it's only Part II, but XIII did alot for me to rebalance things. Fang and Lightning spring to mind very quickly. But then again, Jihl Nabaat's just your stereotypical big busted school teacher. It's annoying. For every breakthrough, they have to include a counterbalance of a huge rack. Guess you can't have it all.

A few points I shall try to counter, since most of it is pretty spot on. :p

1) Faris, from Final Fantasy V. I don't think you were at all fair saying that she was somewhat legitimatized by having to pretend to be a man. She was in a world that didn't take the females as seriously, as you said, so had to dress like a man. This is not an enforcement of Stereotypes. It's drawing attention to the fact that, regardless of teh fact the world see's her and refuses to take her seriously, she is still very capable of doing what it is she does. If anything the story of Faris is there to draw people away from the stereotypes, especially considering the roles of females in RPG's at the time. (BoF 2's Katt being one of the only real exceptions at the time. :p

2) In regards to Final Fantasy VI, I actually think Terra losing her Will to fight and Setzer's alcoholism are pretty on par with one another. Both had their wills practically crushed, and simply had different ways to go about it. If anything they are showed to be similar on an emotional level then any distinct differences. In addition, while the kids trope still stands in the case of Terra here, it can easilly be argued that it took more effort to get her back on the basis that she would be leaving behind a lot of these kids with only two people to look after them. At the very least it's a valid reason to stay behind. However I do still agree that it's a bit silly that it's her love of the children that inevitably get's her back in the fight.

3. Celes attempting Suicide. That I also feel wasn't really an enforcement of Gender Rolls. She was in a position no one else was. She may well have been the only survivor. Unlike the others, she was faced with the possibility of being the last person alive in the world after watching the only one she knew was left die. She is under some extreme circumstances here. True, it's Locke's bandana that snaps her out of it and gives her hope, but I think it plays up that it's more about it being proof that others are out there rather then the fact they are all lovely lovely.


...Also the upgraded white mage is quite obviously a dude in FF 1. :p

Though I think having women relegated to healers is one thing I don't think so much on the physical/magic side of things. There isn't a reason to portray females as physically weak, but portraying them as physically equivalent to men is imo a knee jerk reaction the other way. Assuming that males and females are equally adept at magic and that males are more adept than females at physical jobs you would expect to see a far higher prevalence of mages being female.

I have no problem with a game imposing the idea that men and women are of average equal physical ability as part of it's structure, but the idea that having men more physically apt isn't sexism it is just realistic. There is a reason that every sport separates men and women, and that the mens is of a higher level. This is no reason for females to have a stereotypically weak personality, or to be just plain weak, but I am willing to take a stand and say that making physical 'classes' to be more typically male isn't sexist, it is realistic. Whether you want to make the game in this manner or opt for a suspension of disbelief in favor of egalitarianism is a choice of the developer and I don't begrudge them either way.

I'm going to take your challenge Lez and find the last time a male needed to be rescued in a Final Fantasy game.

I'll be back.

Actually a good exercise for this would be to count all the instances of this either way and lay it out numerically. Not that I am going to take the time to count, but it would be interesting if someone is so inclined.

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Originally Posted by NeoCracker

1) Faris, from Final Fantasy V. I don't think you were at all fair saying that she was somewhat legitimatized by having to pretend to be a man. She was in a world that didn't take the females as seriously, as you said, so had to dress like a man. This is not an enforcement of Stereotypes.

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I don't see how it isn't. The only strong female fighter has to disguise herself as a man? While it does make Faris herself less than stereotypical, that only serves to emphasize the typical dichotomy between male and female classes.

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2) In regards to Final Fantasy VI, I actually think Terra losing her Will to fight and Setzer's alcoholism are pretty on par with one another. Both had their wills practically crushed, and simply had different ways to go about it. If anything they are showed to be similar on an emotional level then any distinct differences. In addition, while the kids trope still stands in the case of Terra here, it can easilly be argued that it took more effort to get her back on the basis that she would be leaving behind a lot of these kids with only two people to look after them. At the very least it's a valid reason to stay behind. However I do still agree that it's a bit silly that it's her love of the children that inevitably get's her back in the fight.

3. Celes attempting Suicide. That I also feel wasn't really an enforcement of Gender Rolls. She was in a position no one else was. She may well have been the only survivor. Unlike the others, she was faced with the possibility of being the last person alive in the world after watching the only one she knew was left die. She is under some extreme circumstances here. True, it's Locke's bandana that snaps her out of it and gives her hope, but I think it plays up that it's more about it being proof that others are out there rather then the fact they are all lovely lovely.

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This was actually something that was already brought up when I was getting opinions on an early draft of this. Earlier today I was trying to fit in a preemptive rebuttal into the article, but it was already so damn long. xD I even thought about cutting this one in half, but then realized if I kept doing that, I'd be writing this series for months. Plus, if I tried to respond to everything in the article, there'd be less to argue about in the comments. :p

You make a reasonable point, but I think that ignores the overall view of things I'm trying to emphasize here. Terra's and Celes's situations weren't bad by themselves. In fact, in a different game at a different time, they might not be notable at all. But in this game, in the context of the FF series as a whole at that time, I think it's notable these highly emotional decisions and justifications were given to female characters. Given the lack of similar circumstances for male characters, as well as the dearth of emotionally stronger female characters, I think it's easy to see how the choice to make Terra and Celes that way was based on gender stereotypes about the emotional strength of women.

Additionally, you're probably right that Terra losing the will/ability to fight and Setzer's drinking are fairly similar in degree. But I think there's an important distinction to be made in how they snap out of it. Terra regains her will based on the love of the children she'd been caring for, which is a distinctly feminine justification that fits well into the emotional/nurturing stereotype of women.

Again, my point is not that these characters are necessarily horrible examples of sexism in and of themselves, but that viewed in the aggregate, female characters have almost universally been hampered by gender-based stereotypes and prejudices.

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...Also the upgraded white mage is quite obviously a dude in FF 1. :p

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Lies.

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Originally Posted by VeloZer0

Though I think having women relegated to healers is one thing I don't think so much on the physical/magic side of things. There isn't a reason to portray females as physically weak, but portraying them as physically equivalent to men is imo a knee jerk reaction the other way. Assuming that males and females are equally adept at magic and that males are more adept than females at physical jobs you would expect to see a far higher prevalence of mages being female.

I have no problem with a game imposing the idea that men and women are of average equal physical ability as part of it's structure, but the idea that having men more physically apt isn't sexism it is just realistic. There is a reason that every sport separates men and women, and that the mens is of a higher level. This is no reason for females to have a stereotypically weak personality, or to be just plain weak, but I am willing to take a stand and say that making physical 'classes' to be more typically male isn't sexist, it is realistic. Whether you want to make the game in this manner or opt for a suspension of disbelief in favor of egalitarianism is a choice of the developer and I don't begrudge them either way.

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I'm not saying that there are no differences between the sexes. My point is not that having a women be a healer or weaker than a man is itself sexist. Obviously women are, in general, naturally weaker than men. My point is that, viewed as a whole, the female characters have largely been hampered by gender-based stereotypes and prejudices, far moreso than their male counterparts.

For instance, take your sports' analogy. True, male basketball players don't play with women due to physical differences. But there are women basketball players. And there are some women who are stronger than some men. In these first VI games, there are entire games without a physical-oriented female character, even a relatively weaker thief or archer-type fighter. I'm not demanding that all female characters be of equal strength as all the male characters, but that they be given the same variety, in roles and personalities.

Even though I love Celes's suicide scene, more from the emotional reaction it got from me than anything else, I always did feel troubled that all it took for her to go on living was the slim hope that Locke was still alive (although a friend told me that his interpretation was that Celes thought she was the last person alive, and Locke's bandanna convinced her otherwise, an interpretation I vastly prefer). Can't say I'm a fan of dependent woman in stories. Keep up the good work!

I don't see why it makes sense to have females occupying these roles if they are performing them at a lower level than that of a male. In the case of an outlier female who is superior to the average male (which does happen) they won't be superior to the outlier males. And in reality all the party members are always outliers in the realm of combat proficiency.

I agree that females are shorted in personality and utility variety but pointing to a physical/magical dichotomy in particular isn't helpful, because it is (possibly the only) field in which the imbalance is justified. Stereotyping within the mage role is another matter entirely.

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Originally Posted by Formalhaut

As I see it, the only main game male character who is either in a "feminine" job class or behaves as a damsel in distress is Minwu.

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Banon
Prince Edward is not the typical manly-man.
But, yeah, I’m at a loss after that.

Character	Strength	Battle Power
Gogo:	25	13
Relm:	26	11
Strago:	28	10
Mog:	29	16
Terra:	31	12
Celes:	34	16
Setzer:	36	18
Locke:	37	14
Edgar:	39	20
Shadow:	39	23
Cyan:	40	25
Sabin:	47	26
Umaro:	57	47

Low strength, yes, but keep in mind that Terra can equip heavy armors, swords, and shields. Those are Knight equips. Not weak little magic user equips. So she’s statistically more magical than physical? Well yeah, she’s half Esper. It makes sense. If she were a man, it would be the same.

Here’s the thing. You chose strength as a primary basis for the sexism in the game and there’s two things wrong with that. One being that men, statistically, are stronger than women. It’s true, it has nothing to do with sexism, or gender roles, or any other bulltrout. The strongest woman in the world is not as strong as the strongest man in the world, despite each have equal access to gyms and steroids and blahblahblah. The problem, as you pointed out, is that this fact can be used to oppress women and force on them slavish devotion to men. Which leads me to the second problem: this aspect of the strength debate does not influence the game world, because Terra and Celes have access to kickass gear that makes them just as much a threat in physical combat as the boys. Players don’t go through the game thinking, gosh she’s so weak I’ve got to make her a magic user. That girl stands in the front row in her shiny heavy armor duel-wielding massive smurfing swords and slicing the trout out of monsters.



Faris is a great female character, is completely atypical, and a good example of a non-sexist girl character in the FF universe. The fact that she has to act like a man has nothing to do with her as a character and everything to do with the world she lives in. Do you fault homosexuals who feel they need to act heterosexual around their families because their families won’t accept them otherwise? The Faris story recognizes that the world forces people into gender roles. It’s really no different whatsoever than what you’re doing now in writing about sexism. You’re pointing out sexism in a video game, which reflects on the sexism in society. The Faris character points out sexism in the FFIV world, which reflects on sexism in society.

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Originally Posted by Lez

And, like Faris, despite being a physical fighter, Celes’s appearance and attire are still distinctly feminine, unlike more modern and consistent mold-breakers like Game of Thrones’s Brienne.

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Sooo, strong women have to be ugly brutes? How is this a superior way of looking at things? Game of Thrones is an ugly series, an ugly show, and is clearly designated for adults. Final Fantasy is a series ostensibly for kids, or is at least supposed to be accessible for kids. So let’s picture Celes as a non-feminine muscle-bound ugly brute of a woman. What does that say to the child? If you’re a woman and you want to be strong and fight like the men, you can’t have long hair, or be pretty, or wear the clothes you want to wear. Hide your boobs, act like they don’t exist. Bulk up and make yourself dirty. Etc., etc.

Now that I think about it, that analogy is so obviously bad, I’m guessing you meant it somehow a little differently than I’m taking it.

Celes does have to be rescued, I’ll grant that (as does Terra and Relm both) although I don’t think it quite fully fits the “damsel in distress” mold. She’s not whiny about it. She remains tough throughout and doesn’t break. She’s not in that position because she’s weak. Quite the opposite actually, it’s because she’s defiant, her own person.

There are 3 females, 2 animals, 1 hermaphrodite or asexual character, and 7 males. Yeah, it’s not balanced, but it most certainly does nothing to take away from Terra as a strong female character. Terra and Celes both have very strong central roles in the game.

And Terra’s not the only character in FF with emotional issues. Cyan is at least as emotionally dependant and unstable as Terra, if not more so. Sabin’s a peppy overly-zealous character, and the game even hints at Relm and Sabin having very similar playful peppy personalities. Shadow is the silent, brooding type, but there’s no connection there to gender, it’s because of his past. He wasn’t always that way, but became so because of his history. Edgar’s a philanderer, but the game makes fun of him for it. It’s not shown to be positive, it’s not sensationalized.

For example, it would be blind and hypocritical to see Locke’s nurturing devotion to Rachel in a different way than Terra’s nurturing devotion to the children of Mobliz, or Celes’ nurturing devotion to Cid. And what does Terra figure out in the end? That she has to FIGHT for the kids. That she can kick Phunbaba’s ass.

The whole emotional thing is silly anyways because Terra spends a huge part of the game not having any emotions at all. She questions that fact, yes, but not because she’s a woman, but because she’s human.

Human beings are nurturing. Terra’s responsibility to Mobliz is her recognition of the part of her that is human, that holds itself responsible for people who need protected. Imagine Cyan in Terra’s role in Mobliz. Perfect fit. No difference whatsoever. Has nothing to do with being a girl.

It’s too easy sometimes to blame things on gender. Let’s play FFVI shuffle for a moment. Gau’s a boy, but if he were a girl exactly the same in every way to the male version, we’d complain about her being half-naked and sexualized, or that she’s crazy and annoying. If Shadow were a woman, we’d call her a bitch for acting the same way Shadow does now as a man. If Edgar were a female version of himself, his philandering would be whoring. AND CLAIM ALL THE WHILE THAT THESE ARE ALL EXAMPLES OF SEXISM. When they’re clearly not. No matter what a female character does, no matter how she acts or dresses, there will be ways to declaim aspects of her character as sexist.

So anyway, those are my opinions. Thanks for the article, Raist. I’m looking forward to the next one. In FFVII-onward, examples of sexist and anti-sexist characters become more blatant, sometimes making things even more complicated (Tifa is a tough, monk-class female who still manages to be sexist in many ways, etc.), so it should be really interesting.

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Originally Posted by Mirage

I'm going to take your challenge Lez and find the last time a male needed to be rescued in a Final Fantasy game.

I'll be back.

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you might have to define exactly, what you mean as off top of my head these could fit:
Strago WOR FF6
not physically but you have to rescue cloud from his melt down in 7
Laguna in FF8
in FFX tidus is rescued in the opening scene by auron & then 15mins later by Rikku
in FFX-2, the party rescues numerous men (i.e. the chocobo idiot, kamarhi)

As for my first point, I explained why it's not really an example to bring up as to the character herself being sexist. It's because the reveal that she's hiding her Gender is because that Stereotype clearly exists in there world. As a player, I don't think we were intended to go "Well yeah she should hide her gender, she's a woman!" but you're intended to Sympathize with Faris's situation. It was going out of it's way to make a point that Faris was just as capable as a man, in both a game world that unfairly views woman, and in a greater scheme a way to show that in the greater scheme of the gaming world at the time. (Of course they may not have been amazing on following up on that after this. :p)

Well, I guess if you as a player said "Well yeah she should hide her identy" I can see why one would think this sexist, but I think that says more about the player then the game. :p

Instert: Okay, I wrote out everything below this point realizing it wasn't really a response to you, but I think there is a point in it all anyway, so I'll leave it. However, as an actual response, FF VI actually leaves the most emotional based arc, at least prior to the child thing in WoR, belonged to Locke. Hell, pretty much all of his actions are a result of his emotianal attachment to Rachel. So not only were his actions very Emotional in nature, he was able to even overcome his grief and move on, regardless of all his efforts inevitably proving worthless after all these years. So he is both emotional in action, and possess a great amount of emotional strength.

In addition, there is Edgar, who chooses to shoulder the burden of the country not because if any kind of logic, but to allow his brother his freedom. Again we have a male showing signs of acting purely based on emotion, though it lacks any real semblance of Logic, or for that matter any kind of manly nature. It was purely out of his nurturing nature towards his brother. Basically, FF VI is a game that see's a lot of mixing of typical gender roles, albeit they don't completely dispense of them, and they probably could have been handled better in some instances. And as I said, we are in full agreement on the child thing with Terra. :p

Anyway, here is the part I wrote in without really thinking! :monster:

In response to the FF VI comments, while I understand your point, FF VI actually gave the females quite a few bits that one would not normally see given to a female character. For example, Terra was pretty much viewed as a super soldier by the empire. And not for power she would be capable of unlocking, but her power as a soldier. She was, if FF VI, The Super Soldier that all others should be like. Even today you rarely see a role like that handed to anyone but a man. You have Celes, who is a general turned traitor. Again, not often do you see the traitors among enemy females in those days, it is once again a role typically assigned to men, being 'Men of Honor and codes' and what not.

So to view in 'Aggregate' as you put it, in their own times both of these games had actually started to break away some of the Stereotypes of gaming at the time.

What are your opinions on Cecil telling Rosa and Rydia to get off the Airship before the final battle ? Being protective of them ? Or just females = weak ?

I would say being Protective of them. Mind you, these guys should know by now how useful the ladies are, I mean for smurf sakes Rydia summons god like beings to aid them.

But yeah, a bit sexist either way there. :p

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Originally Posted by Dr. rydrum2112

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Originally Posted by Mirage

I'm going to take your challenge Lez and find the last time a male needed to be rescued in a Final Fantasy game.

I'll be back.

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you might have to define exactly, what you mean as off top of my head these could fit:
Strago WOR FF6
not physically but you have to rescue cloud from his melt down in 7
Laguna in FF8
in FFX tidus is rescued in the opening scene by auron & then 15mins later by Rikku
in FFX-2, the party rescues numerous men (i.e. the chocobo idiot, kamarhi)

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Well god damn you, I wanted to do this myself :(.

Maybe I can find more instances though. However, many of these examples are from after the era this article covers.

In FF5, I am pretty sure you have to save Cid and his grandson Mid several times. I also think both the main character dude and the two girls in the party gets mind controlled by Siren, and the only reason Galuf can make them snap out of it is because he is amnesiac and doesn't recognize the fake images Siren conjures up to control them with.

I'm also not entirely sure, but I can't remember Krile needing any saving in FF5 either.

Maybe my memory fails me, but I can't think of a whole lot of woman-saving in that game. Lenna gets saved once at the beginning of the game, and I think she and Bartz gets stuck in the antlion cave in world three, where Faris ends up saving them both.

At the end of the game, you also end up with three times as many females in your party as males. It might be interesting to note that the previous generation of heroes in FF5 (the warriors of dawn) were all men, but your party, who represents the new generation (the warriors of light), are mostly women.

All in all, I think FF5 does a pretty darned good job. It is probably among the best for gender equality at the time it was released.


As for FF6 and Terra and Setzer. Both suffers a kind of a mental breakdown. Even if it might be "stereotypical", Terra is the only one of those two who turns that into something constructive. Setzer is the one who got the short straw here. He ends up an ex-gambler dude who is stuck drinking his sorrows away at a bar, while Terra actually does something good for the world, even when things were looking as grim as they were. It definitely sounds like she's the mentally strongest of the two.

Oh boy, here we go. First off, thanks for all the feedback!

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Originally Posted by chionos

Low strength, yes, but keep in mind that Terra can equip heavy armors, swords, and shields. Those are Knight equips. Not weak little magic user equips. So she’s statistically more magical than physical? Well yeah, she’s half Esper. It makes sense. If she were a man, it would be the same.

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Yeah, FFVI's actual damage output is more based on equipment than the strength stat, making most of the party fairly useful. But, given the context of the game, don't you think it's at least notable that the Super Soldier Terra has a lower strength stat than the human males? Again, it's not something that's terrible by itself, but together with other things shows that the writers made some of these decisions based on gender stereotypes.

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Here’s the thing. You chose strength as a primary basis for the sexism in the game...

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I did not intend to. Obviously most women in real life are less physically strong than most men (though also most men can't blow things up with magic, so games are fully capable of changing things around in this respect). How physically-oriented a female character is can be one factor to consider, along with everything else.

And I fully admit that FFVI is a significant improvement overall. Note that I did not need to do much analysis to point out how Rosa, for example, is based on sexist tropes. And then look at how deep I had to delve into Terra's and Celes's characters and psychology to point out problems with them (and really the subject warrants going deeper, but I was constrained by space).

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Faris is a great female character, is completely atypical, and a good example of a non-sexist girl character in the FF universe. The fact that she has to act like a man has nothing to do with her as a character and everything to do with the world she lives in. Do you fault homosexuals who feel they need to act heterosexual around their families because their families won’t accept them otherwise? The Faris story recognizes that the world forces people into gender roles. It’s really no different whatsoever than what you’re doing now in writing about sexism. You’re pointing out sexism in a video game, which reflects on the sexism in society. The Faris character points out sexism in the FFIV world, which reflects on sexism in society.

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This is a reasonably debatable point, but I did not see Faris as a criticism of sexism. To put a comparison in here that I mentioned earlier, Game of Thrones's Arya and Brienne are clearly critiques of a sexist, male-dominated culture. I did not get that same message from Faris, though admittedly it's been a while since I saved the game. Instead, the choice to make Faris that way seems to emphasize that male-dominated roles, such as pirates, are male-dominated.

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Originally Posted by Lez

And, like Faris, despite being a physical fighter, Celes’s appearance and attire are still distinctly feminine, unlike more modern and consistent mold-breakers like Game of Thrones’s Brienne.

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Sooo, strong women have to be ugly brutes? How is this a superior way of looking at things? [/quote]

I did not say that, and at this retort seems very pedantic. My comment was focused on her entire appearance, including her attire, and how she carried herself. Obviously it's unlikely that main characters are going to be made ugly, but there are plenty of non-ugly ways for a woman too look and dress and act that aren't stereotypically feminine. Some of the later games actually do a good job with this, but I won't spoil my future articles. :p

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Celes does have to be rescued, I’ll grant that (as does Terra and Relm both) although I don’t think it quite fully fits the “damsel in distress” mold. She’s not whiny about it. She remains tough throughout and doesn’t break. She’s not in that position because she’s weak. Quite the opposite actually, it’s because she’s defiant, her own person.

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Celes does not fit the damsel in distress model. It's just somewhat notable, in the overall picture, that the writers chose the woman to need rescuing.

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And Terra’s not the only character in FF with emotional issues. Cyan is at least as emotionally dependant and unstable as Terra, if not more so. Sabin’s a peppy overly-zealous character, and the game even hints at Relm and Sabin having very similar playful peppy personalities. Shadow is the silent, brooding type, but there’s no connection there to gender, it’s because of his past. He wasn’t always that way, but became so because of his history. Edgar’s a philanderer, but the game makes fun of him for it. It’s not shown to be positive, it’s not sensationalized.

For example, it would be blind and hypocritical to see Locke’s nurturing devotion to Rachel in a different way than Terra’s nurturing devotion to the children of Mobliz, or Celes’ nurturing devotion to Cid. And what does Terra figure out in the end? That she has to FIGHT for the kids. That she can kick Phunbaba’s ass.

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Because FFVI is a well-written game, pretty much all of the characters have some sort of issue. But the type of emotional issues Terra has, especially how she expresses it, is a sexist stereotype. Taking care of and nurturing children is one of the classic gender roles for women.

Again, it's not obnoxiously sexist by itself -- but it's notable that, out of all the characters in FFVI, a woman was chosen for that part. You seem to be viewing these characters in a vacuum instead of in the context of the series, which may be part of your trouble in understanding what I'm trying to say.

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It’s too easy sometimes to blame things on gender. Let’s play FFVI shuffle for a moment. Gau’s a boy, but if he were a girl exactly the same in every way to the male version, we’d complain about her being half-naked and sexualized, or that she’s crazy and annoying. If Shadow were a woman, we’d call her a bitch for acting the same way Shadow does now as a man. If Edgar were a female version of himself, his philandering would be whoring. AND CLAIM ALL THE WHILE THAT THESE ARE ALL EXAMPLES OF SEXISM. When they’re clearly not. No matter what a female character does, no matter how she acts or dresses, there will be ways to declaim aspects of her character as sexist.

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This is a good point, though I disagree that most of those characters would be sexist as women (and I have not even used such arguments like those against other women characters, though I will note that Lightning was often derided, and not by feminists, for being "bitchy"), which is why I think it's important to view these examples of sexism in the aggregate instead of in isolation. Viewed as a whole, it's easier to see how some sexist tropes are repeatedly used.

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Originally Posted by NeoCracker

However, as an actual response, FF VI actually leaves the most emotional based arc, at least prior to the child thing in WoR, belonged to Locke. Hell, pretty much all of his actions are a result of his emotianal attachment to Rachel. So not only were his actions very Emotional in nature, he was able to even overcome his grief and move on, regardless of all his efforts inevitably proving worthless after all these years. So he is both emotional in action, and possess a great amount of emotional strength.

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As I said to choinos, pretty much every well-developed character ever has some emotional issues. Locke was a good example of a non-stereotypical male character, although love has always been a common motivator for men (otherwise there would be no damsel in distress trope). My point was not that Terra and Celes has emotional issues by itself, but the sort of situations those issues put themselves in are stereotypically feminine. Terra is an easier example of this, where she regains her will to fight by love of children whom she had been taking care of.

I agree with you that FFVI was an improvement overall.

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Originally Posted by maybee

What are your opinions on Cecil telling Rosa and Rydia to get off the Airship before the final battle ? Being protective of them ? Or just females = weak ?

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By itself, it's easily justified by Cecil being protective. But it does clearly fit the gender role stereotype of men protecting women, especially given the context of the rest of the game.

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Originally Posted by Mirage

All in all, I think FF5 does a pretty darned good job. It is probably among the best for gender equality at the time it was released.

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Considering the games that came before it, that's probably true. Not that that's saying much.

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As for FF6 and Terra and Setzer. Both suffers a kind of a mental breakdown. Even if it might be "stereotypical", Terra is the only one of those two who turns that into something constructive. Setzer is the one who got the short straw here. He ends up an ex-gambler dude who is stuck drinking his sorrows away at a bar, while Terra actually does something good for the world, even when things were looking as grim as they were. It definitely sounds like she's the mentally strongest of the two.

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See my responses to choinos and NeoCracker on this subject.

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Originally Posted by Raistlin

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Originally Posted by Mirage

All in all, I think FF5 does a pretty darned good job. It is probably among the best for gender equality at the time it was released.

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Considering the games that came before it, that's probably true. Not that that's saying much.

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Actually, I think it is saying quite a bit. These types of changes often tend to come slowly and steadily, and FF5 did kind of progress at a faster rate than what had been seen before. I think the influence and importance of females improved a substantial amount from 4 to 5, and I really don't think any more than one out of the three females exhibit a significant amount of traditional stereotypes, and when she does, isn't exactly a very important part of the story either.

Neither of the princesses of Tycoon are the type who is content with a typical princess-role. They are both adventurous, resourceful and pretty physically capable, One of them is even the boss of a dozen pirates, and I think it is safe to say that pirates aren't the easiest bunch to boss around in the world.

Oh yeah, none of them are really love interests for the males in the party either. I mean obviously Galuf and Bartz thought Faris was pretty, but it stopped at that.

Now that I think about it, I should replay the game with these things in mind, and see if my memories of the game are in line with reality. I feel pretty sure that they are, but who knows?

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As for FF6 and Terra and Setzer. Both suffers a kind of a mental breakdown. Even if it might be "stereotypical", Terra is the only one of those two who turns that into something constructive. Setzer is the one who got the short straw here. He ends up an ex-gambler dude who is stuck drinking his sorrows away at a bar, while Terra actually does something good for the world, even when things were looking as grim as they were. It definitely sounds like she's the mentally strongest of the two.

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See my responses to choinos and NeoCracker on this subject.

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Yes, I was gonna type it out yesterday but it was too late, then I didn't really bother reading every new reply before I wrote it today.

Oh, my comment before was a dig at the pre-FFV games, not at FFV itself. I meant to say that it wasn't saying much to be any sort of improvement on them.

Oh, all right then.

Then we can all agree that FF5 is a wonderful game and there is nothing wrong with it.

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Originally Posted by Mirage

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Originally Posted by Dr. rydrum2112

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Originally Posted by Mirage

I'm going to take your challenge Lez and find the last time a male needed to be rescued in a Final Fantasy game.

I'll be back.

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you might have to define exactly, what you mean as off top of my head these could fit:
Strago WOR FF6
not physically but you have to rescue cloud from his melt down in 7
Laguna in FF8
in FFX tidus is rescued in the opening scene by auron & then 15mins later by Rikku
in FFX-2, the party rescues numerous men (i.e. the chocobo idiot, kamarhi)

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Well god damn you, I wanted to do this myself :(.

Maybe I can find more instances though. However, many of these examples are from after the era this article covers.

In FF5, I am pretty sure you have to save Cid and his grandson Mid several times. I also think both the main character dude and the two girls in the party gets mind controlled by Siren, and the only reason Galuf can make them snap out of it is because he is amnesiac and doesn't recognize the fake images Siren conjures up to control them with.

I'm also not entirely sure, but I can't remember Krile needing any saving in FF5 either.

Maybe my memory fails me, but I can't think of a whole lot of woman-saving in that game. Lenna gets saved once at the beginning of the game, and I think she and Bartz gets stuck in the antlion cave in world three, where Faris ends up saving them both.

At the end of the game, you also end up with three times as many females in your party as males. It might be interesting to note that the previous generation of heroes in FF5 (the warriors of dawn) were all men, but your party, who represents the new generation (the warriors of light), are mostly women.

All in all, I think FF5 does a pretty darned good job. It is probably among the best for gender equality at the time it was released.

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Well I have to be honest- the earliest FF I've played is 6. So I don't know if there are ones prior, so I am glad you can still contribute there. But as I said- the ones I mentioned, might not even count as a "true rescue" in the sense that Lez meant it.

Here is an interesting thought, I think if you look hard enough you will find something that happened or a trait in any character than can be viewed as stereotypical. As you say, you had to look deep to find one for Terra & Celes- would that be true of every character?

For instance in my own opinion, I would've said Terra is a good example of not sexist (minus the nude morph look) where as Yuna is. Then I guess for me a non-sexist character would qualify if: I have to look hard to come up with an example of the bias. And clearly that means at some level they are probable still sexist, reflecting my first point?

Does anyone have an exemplar of a "truly" non-sexist character? (Does one even exist? how bad is that...)

That is a good question, ryd. And yes, actually, I would say that there are examples of characters that I wouldn't consider sexist. In another game with other characters, I think even Rosa could be considered non-sexist. That is because there would be a variety of other characters, and that one character just happened to be a woman who happened to fall into some common stereotypes. There are always going to be those characters just based on pure happenstance; someone has to be the weak healer, the person in need of rescue, or many other common fantasy tropes. My only problem with some of the earlier FF games is that when female characters are limited to those roles and personalities, not based on happenstance, but because they are women. And that seems to be the inescapable conclusion for most of these games when you look at the series as a whole.

For example, and I don't want to get ahead of myself here, but I don't see much all that sexist about Vanille from FFXIII, who is a cheery, physically-weak healer that fits a lot of the gender-based stereotypes I've discussed so far -- for reasons I'll get into in Part IV. :)

Oops, forgot to toe the line.

I agree with everything you said, Raist, and not a single thing was incorrect or misleading.