You know, I was never keen on the idea of a 3D Chrono Game but watching this fan project and playing DQVIII has kind of made me start to reconsider it.
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You know, I was never keen on the idea of a 3D Chrono Game but watching this fan project and playing DQVIII has kind of made me start to reconsider it.
oh Gaspar. :jess:
That's the exact same video I saw like 6 years ago when they got slapped by a big ol' cease and desist.
>>> They should have kept with it.. What is the big deal about being sued by SE?. :luca:
criminal charges, possible jail time, huge fine's that will bankrupt you...Quote:
Originally Posted by black orb
this project, though made for innocent reasons, is still clearly breaking copyright laws.
>>> No one goes to jail for making a game´s fan tribute.. If they were planning on making money from this, well thats another story.:luca:Quote:
Originally Posted by Wolf Kannocriminal charges, possible jail time, huge fine's that will bankrupt you...Quote:
Originally Posted by black orb
this project, though made for innocent reasons, is still clearly breaking copyright laws.
The NET Act of 1997 allows criminal prosecution of copyright infringment even when there is no monetary gain and has maximum penalties including up to five years in prison and up to $250,000 in fines, none of this including statutory damages which can get ridiculously high.Quote:
Originally Posted by black orb>>> No one goes to jail for making a game´s fan tribute.. If they were planning on making money from this, well thats another story.:luca:Quote:
Originally Posted by Wolf Kannocriminal charges, possible jail time, huge fine's that will bankrupt you...Quote:
Originally Posted by black orb
this project, though made for innocent reasons, is still clearly breaking copyright laws.
While SE probably wouldnt go as far as the maximum charges, the fines and damages cost would be more than a few fans would be able to pay without significant debt and filing for bakruptcy.
the team even had plans at one point to make this into a full remake which if distributed would probably had allowed SE to hit them with maximum charges.
>>> And where is the copyright infringment? I can see crearly in that video "Chrono Trigger is a trademark of Square Enix Co. Ltd."Quote:
Originally Posted by Wolf KannoThe NET Act of 1997 allows criminal prosecution of copyright infringment even when there is no monetary gain and has maximum penalties including up to five years in prison and up to $250,000 in fines, none of this including statutory damages which can get ridiculously high.Quote:
Originally Posted by black orb>>> No one goes to jail for making a game´s fan tribute.. If they were planning on making money from this, well thats another story.:luca:Quote:
Originally Posted by Wolf Kannocriminal charges, possible jail time, huge fine's that will bankrupt you...Quote:
Originally Posted by black orb
this project, though made for innocent reasons, is still clearly breaking copyright laws.
>>> SE probably wouldnt go as far as sue them at all, that would be the worst publicity ever..:luca:Quote:
Originally Posted by Wolf Kanno
>>> Well thats stupid now, distribute a full remake would be pushing the limits. They should have planned to make a short demo and be happy with that..:luca:Quote:
Originally Posted by Wolf Kanno
As a copyright lawyer, jail time is a very rare outcome, and because they probably weren't going to sell this for commercial gain, the likeliest outcome, if anything, would be fines (and fines don't happen a lot even when there is infringement). With defenses like waiver, fair use, and the sympathy that they're just a couple of passionate kids doing all of this for a fan community, there's a chance the judge might even only grant Square nominal damages of $1. More than likely, though, they would settle out of court before it came to that, just as 99.9% of all cases do nowadays anyway. The settlement would likely be them stopping.
Orb, them attributing the trademark to Square has nothing to do with copyright. All you have to do to infringe someone's copyright is to actually copy it. Or distribute it, reproduce it, publicly display or perform it. The big one, though is preparing derivative works, essentially making sequels or spinoffs. That's the big issue here, as only SE has the exclusive right to do that.
As far as my opinion of the video, it was kinda cruel for them even to make it since it's only a hint at what could have been and what will very likely never be.
I think that in the beginning the group got so caught up in what they were doing they were just thinking about keeping the internet in the loop, rather than the full legal consequences of what they were doing.
Well they were sure having their lawyers make a big mess about it.Quote:
SE probably wouldnt go as far as sue them at all, that would be the worst publicity ever..
Also remember that even if they get a slap on the wrist from a judge the whole court process would probably ruin them.
To be fair black orb, when they originally gave the cease and desist order, it was when they were planning to make an actual remake of the game which is copyright infringement, so I think there was a mixed wire in the conversation.
Bolivar: I don't know man, there is still always a chance. At least some of the big names like Masato Kato and Yasunori Mitsuda are still very interested in the franchise, so I could see SE some time down the road giving this game a 3D remake, though it will be more like the DS remakes than say something on a major console tech level. I mean they ported to the DS and iOS so its not like SE has completely abandoned it.
>>> I guess all the millions of fanarts, fanfics, doujin, etc out there would be copyright infringment too. But no company seems to make a big deal of it. :luca:Quote:
Originally Posted by Bolivar
Fishy..
There are lots of legal guidelines and precedents to distinguish between 'Fair Use'* and Copyright Infringement. There exists a whole body of law that deals with this which has been determined through legislative efforts and actual court decisions. It doesn't go by what some of us on the internet feel is right (or makes sense).
*this is a legal term which may or may not reflect an individuals opinion on fair.
I'm currently replaying chrono trigger on my 3ds so omg that trailer was awesome!
Largely because its not worth the hassle of going after each person and many companies often see this as free advertisement. SE shut down the remake project but as we can all see the "Tribute Video" is alive and well.Quote:
Originally Posted by black orb>>> I guess all the millions of fanarts, fanfics, doujin, etc out there would be copyright infringment too. But no company seems to make a big deal of it. :luca:Quote:
Originally Posted by Bolivar
Fishy..
Honestly Copyright Law is a bit tricky due to the language used in the laws and also because many of them were written without proper foresight into how the Internet and technology would change things. I mean the NET Act was intended to allow film and music companies to criminally prosecute peer to peer websites like Napster back in the day, but due to the ambiguous language a company could theoretically press criminal charges against more innocent fan works. They don't because its a waste of money, often its not hurting anyone, and it looks bad when a company tries to sue a twelve year old for drawing fanart and selling it for a dollar on the school playground.
This is a fun video to explain it...
I know man, I'm just so skeptical of SE these days that I feel it's best to kill any optimism I have deep down inside...Quote:
Originally Posted by Wolf
As VeloZer0 and I pointed out in our posts, there's an array of defenses that can be raised, the biggest of which is Fair Use. Like so much of the law, it all comes down to "is it reasonable or not," and a teenager posting a fanfic on his deviantart profile is obviously fair, and there's a few factors that you use to back it up (whether or not it's commercial, how much and what it took, whether it's 'transformative' or not). Plus the remedy you're looking for when you sue someone from copyright infringment is damages, getting paid a ton of money for whatever that person did. If they didn't profit off of it, there's no money to be made and what's the point of spending money on lawyers for that? :pQuote:
Originally Posted by black orb>>> I guess all the millions of fanarts, fanfics, doujin, etc out there would be copyright infringment too. But no company seems to make a big deal of it. :luca:Quote:
Originally Posted by Bolivar
Fishy..
Funny how seven years of talking to me finally brought you down to my level with SE. ;)Quote:
Originally Posted by Bolivar
Eh, I only think its still possible because SE still vehemently protects this IP from fan works, which tells me they still plan on using it sometime down the road, though I feel Square and SE have kind of bumbled the IP and its nowhere near as strong as it could have been since they pretty much stopped talking about the game after Chrono Cross was released in 2000. I sometimes wonder if Chrono 3 may have been cancelled indefinitely because SE waited too long and lost any audience it could have had.
Just because they aggressively protect an IP doesn't mean that they ever plan on doing it. An IP is an asset that a company owns, just like an office building or the company fleet of cars.
If someone releases a 3D remake that means that the market demand of people who will potentially pay money for a SE 3D remake decreases and thus the value of the Chrono IP has decreased in the same way that a stock's value decreases. Even though they don't loose any income they see that the value of their (intellectual) property has decreased and thus the total value of their company on their assets and liabilities balance sheet has decreased. Though it sounds stupid for us, as something like this would likely invigorate attention to the Chrono IP, to the typical cooperation mindset it is kind of like someone vandalizing their building an lowering it's property value
You don't have to argue with me that this is narrow minded, I'm just trying to communicate with you about a way of thinking that is probably completely foreign to most people.
I must say, Square working together with Toriyama to make this remake would be a real dream.
I willQuote:
Originally Posted by Wolf Kanno
NEVER
give you the credit for that! Seriously, though, they were making games that I honestly, thoroughly enjoyed back when the decline started, and even today they still make games that I like (FFXIII) and games that are exactly what I want to play (Tactics Ogre). The last year or two has been pretty bad, but I figure it can't get any worse than this, right?
... right?
>>> More interested on a new Chrono game anyways..:luca:
It seems the connection between copyright and fair use would involves a transformation of the original work. Technically, rerendering a scene from 2D to 3D (whether that work is a game, a movie, or a picture) is still a form of beligerent cloning. I think that if you use the source material to present new ideas (like if Crono had gone super seiyan and that was the only scene we were shown) it wouldn't be looked upon as infringement. For example, my largest projects (EYeS and EC) combine plot and relationships from BLEACH, Kingdom Hearts, Final Fantasy, Transformers, G.I. Joe, Terminator, KND, Xenosaga, Grimm tales, all while transforming the characters' identities (design, backstory) and presenting a new environment thus not being a direct recreation of any aspect of the original works.Quote:
Originally Posted by black orb