Uncanny Valley and Gaming

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06-14-2013, 05:04 PM
Flying Mullet

Uncanny Valley and Gaming

Props for this thread go out to Shauna who finally made the light bulb go off in my head as to why I'm not as keen on so many current and next generation games as compared to previous generations of games.

In the discussion of PS2 Tidus versus 3D Tidus she mentions she likes the PS2 Tidus more as PS3 Tidus is "trapped" in the Uncanny Valley.

Do you think the uncanny valley will hurt the next generation of gaming? Will there be a dip in the popularity of gaming, or certain genres of gaming, until the uncanny valley is passed and the people in the games are truly lifelike?
06-14-2013, 05:11 PM
Pike

The only uncanny valley that has ever bugged me is the one in Oblivion. 90% of the reason I can't stand that game is the ridiculous looking faces and their twitchy eyes.
06-14-2013, 05:41 PM
Del Murder

I think the uncanny valley actually hurt the most in the previous generation (PS2). FFX and XII in particular made me uneasy, and let's not even talk about Spirits Within. In this generation graphics have gotten a lot better and I think we've evolved 'past' the uncanny valley. The uncanny valley, to me is the place where 3D models try to replicate human features but lack the finesse to do so. At this point in time I think we do have the technology to do this accurately enough that it's not bothersome. Games like Red Dead Redemption, the Uncharted series, or even FFXIII have very realistic looking people but don't bother me at all. Either they got better at it, or I got desensitized.

Still, I do like it when games don't try to have super realistic looking characters. I play games to escape reality, not live within it. Borderlands is a great example of a game with detailed human models but done in a cartoonish way that it isn't awkward at all.
06-14-2013, 06:14 PM
Psychotic

Quote:

Originally Posted by Pike

The only uncanny valley that has ever bugged me is the one in Oblivion. 90% of the reason I can't stand that game is the ridiculous looking faces and their twitchy eyes.

http://i43.photobucket.com/albums/e3...psbff08b75.jpg
http://25.media.tumblr.com/fd5e51745...zlqfo1_400.gif
06-14-2013, 06:18 PM
Slothy

There seems to be a bit of confusion about what the Uncanny Valley is. Del has the right definition, though I'd say not the right examples (except for Spirits Within anyway) since games like FFX, XII, and even stuff like Uncharted aren't really trying to be true to life representations of anything. Really detailed and based on generally realistic proportions and what not, but not really going for photo realistic, which is where the Uncanny Valley really applies.

I wouldn't really say it's affected the games this generation any more than any other generation though. At least not the good ones. With the right art style and animation that's actually good, you can have realistic looking models that are well animated and look good without really trying to achieve photo realism at all.

It's still an issue for some games though. L.A. Noire is probably one of the better examples. They spent something like five years and god knows how much money to be able to digitally scan actors facial features and performances and what did it get them? Facial animation that looks substantially worse than what Valve was doing in HL2 back in 2004 when they had procedural facial animations built into the Source Engine. Valve's system accurately captured a range of emotions, without trying to retain and use so much detail that slight variations from real expressions would be off putting. But L.A. Noire tried to capture every last facial detail and translate that to models that lacked the visual fidelity, nor the sort of animation technology required to replicate the actual movements in every detail. Both are realistic in their own way, but L.A. Noire tries to push so hard for photo realism that the end result is painful to look at.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Pike

The only uncanny valley that has ever bugged me is the one in Oblivion. 90% of the reason I can't stand that game is the ridiculous looking faces and their twitchy eyes.

That's not really the Uncanny Valley so much as Bethesda not being able to model or animate anything worth a damn. I don't think they've employed any animators who've actually seen another human before, let alone studied anatomy.
06-14-2013, 06:54 PM
Pike

I know it's not actually the uncanny valley but I still wanted to insult Oblivion.

(I still say the eyes count as uncanny valley though)
06-14-2013, 07:01 PM
Psychotic

No, I think Oblivion is a perfect example of uncanny valley. They have literally just copy pasted a photo of some dude's head, Photoshopped it yellow and had it move about and talk. It's creepy as smurf.
06-14-2013, 07:04 PM
Shoeberto

Quote:

Originally Posted by Vivi22

Quote:

Originally Posted by Pike

The only uncanny valley that has ever bugged me is the one in Oblivion. 90% of the reason I can't stand that game is the ridiculous looking faces and their twitchy eyes.

That's not really the Uncanny Valley so much as Bethesda not being able to model or animate anything worth a damn. I don't think they've employed any animators who've actually seen another human before, let alone studied anatomy.

With Oblivion and onwards, they tried really hard to make everything procedurally controlled, which removes the finesse of finely-tuned modeling and animation quite a bit. It makes sense in a way, since it's easier to add variation by just having models controlled by sliders, but the end effect ain't great. It's an unfortunate trade-off - you either get a few really well-made models that are re-used a lot, or get a lot of variations that aren't pretty.

I like Oblivion's models, though. Makes me think of cheesy airbrushed fantasy art. It's atmospheric!
06-14-2013, 07:10 PM
Pike

4 Attachment(s)

Attachment 43911

Attachment 43912

Attachment 43913

Attachment 43914

THANKS BETHESDA!
06-14-2013, 07:21 PM
Flying Mullet

Quote:

Originally Posted by Pike

Attachment 43913

God, that looks just like my brother. Creepy as hell.
06-14-2013, 07:21 PM
Denmark

my solution to this problem: play games where they're not trying to make the characters look human (i.e. 20 year old games)
06-14-2013, 07:39 PM
Del Murder

Quote:

Originally Posted by Vivi22

There seems to be a bit of confusion about what the Uncanny Valley is. Del has the right definition, though I'd say not the right examples (except for Spirits Within anyway) since games like FFX, XII, and even stuff like Uncharted aren't really trying to be true to life representations of anything. Really detailed and based on generally realistic proportions and what not, but not really going for photo realistic, which is where the Uncanny Valley really applies.

I'll give you FFXII and Uncharted, because I think they understood it by then, but I disagree with FFX. I really do think they were going for photorealism with Titus, Wakka, Yuna, etc. in that game, especially in the cutscenes, and it's creepy as smurf.
06-14-2013, 09:44 PM
Bolivar

Hasnt been a big problem for me this gen. When I think about the most graphically mind blowing games like Uncharted God of war and KilIzone, their assets were more influenced by the creativity of their art directors rather than any attempt to imitate real life. The end result was three series of games that looked amazing, especially during gameplay.

And am I the only one oddly turned on by Pike's Oblivion examples?
06-14-2013, 09:53 PM
Flying Mullet

Quote:

Originally Posted by Bolivar

And am I the only one oddly turned on by Pike's Oblivion examples?

My brother hasn't had a date in a while. I'll let him know you might be interested. :aimhappy:
06-15-2013, 12:47 PM
Rostum

Quote:

Originally Posted by Del Murder

Quote:

Originally Posted by Vivi22

There seems to be a bit of confusion about what the Uncanny Valley is. Del has the right definition, though I'd say not the right examples (except for Spirits Within anyway) since games like FFX, XII, and even stuff like Uncharted aren't really trying to be true to life representations of anything. Really detailed and based on generally realistic proportions and what not, but not really going for photo realistic, which is where the Uncanny Valley really applies.

I'll give you FFXII and Uncharted, because I think they understood it by then, but I disagree with FFX. I really do think they were going for photorealism with Titus, Wakka, Yuna, etc. in that game, especially in the cutscenes, and it's creepy as smurf.

No way... FFX is definitely stylized and not going for photo or even hyper-realism.

When you talk about hyper realism and the uncanny valley you're looking at examples like Spirits Within and Beoulve.
06-15-2013, 01:01 PM
Psychotic

The FFX FMV character models do have a touch of the uncanny valley, but the in game ones aren't so bad.
06-15-2013, 01:04 PM
Jinx

Quote:

Originally Posted by Psychotic

The FFX FMV character models do have a touch of the uncanny valley, but the in game ones aren't so bad.

Wakka especially.
06-15-2013, 02:40 PM
Quindiana Jones

One of my favourite things about Oblivion that I sorely missed in Skyrim was the ability to make truly spooty characters in bizarre colours.

My Tony Hawks Underground character always has bright blue skin and a bright red mohawk. SOMETIMES I LIKE TO GO CRAZY AND HAVE FUN, OKAY?
06-15-2013, 04:47 PM
Del Murder

Quote:

Originally Posted by Psychotic

The FFX FMV character models do have a touch of the uncanny valley, but the in game ones aren't so bad.

Yes, I was referring to the FMVs. I didn't mind the in-game models. I don't know about hyper-realism and all that jargon. All I know is that they made me uncomfortable because they looked like real people but not real people at the same time.
06-15-2013, 05:28 PM
Shauna

Quote:

Originally Posted by Del Murder

All I know is that they made me uncomfortable because they looked like real people but not real people at the same time.

I have always been under the impression that the uncanny valley referred exactly to this sort of thing. :3 Looking real but at the same time unreal in a way that is off-putting.
06-17-2013, 03:22 PM
Flying Mullet

Quote:

Originally Posted by Shauna

Quote:

Originally Posted by Del Murder

All I know is that they made me uncomfortable because they looked like real people but not real people at the same time.

I have always been under the impression that the uncanny valley referred exactly to this sort of thing. :3 Looking real but at the same time unreal in a way that is off-putting.

That's my understanding as well.
06-17-2013, 05:40 PM
Vyk

As far as I'm aware, its different for different people too. So people really can't say "That's not the uncanny valley". The most they can say for certain is that "That's not the uncanny valley, for me".
06-17-2013, 05:40 PM
Jinx

All I know is that PS2 Tidus wasn't in the Uncanny Valley, but oh boy, he sure is now.
06-18-2013, 11:19 AM
Loony BoB

Quote:

Originally Posted by Flying Mullet

Quote:

Originally Posted by Shauna

Quote:

Originally Posted by Del Murder

All I know is that they made me uncomfortable because they looked like real people but not real people at the same time.

I have always been under the impression that the uncanny valley referred exactly to this sort of thing. :3 Looking real but at the same time unreal in a way that is off-putting.

That's my understanding as well.

Chalk another one up for this. If it's not off-putting, then they're doing just fine. Examples of the Uncanny Valley for me are Oblivion, FFX, Oblivion, L.A. Noire, Oblivion and Crysis. Regarding Crysis - for all the beauty they put into their game, I distinctly remember seeing a 2D face slapped onto the front of a round head at the very start of the game when you're about to jump out of the plane, and it's whack.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Vyk

As far as I'm aware, its different for different people too. So people really can't say "That's not the uncanny valley". The most they can say for certain is that "That's not the uncanny valley, for me".

Yeah, I agree with this too. I'm one of the few people who wasn't disturbed by The Spirits Within, and I think the best looking fully animated models I've seen in a game so far are probably FFXIII's. Uncharted is a fantastic for it, too. I can only imagine The Last of Us is really good.
06-18-2013, 04:21 PM
Pike

Quote:

Originally Posted by Tifa's Boobs

All I know is that PS2 Tidus wasn't in the Uncanny Valley, but oh boy, he sure is now.

I still think they look exactly the same, and are much too stylized to bug me at all.