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When Sin is off being dead as a door nail, what the trout is going on in Spira?
Given the fact that Final Fantasy X gives us three summoners, you would think that people would be prepared for Sin. Get all your summoners, make them get all the Aeons, and first one to Zanarkand gets Sin this time. Then, in ten-ish years when Sin rocks up again, you can take him out before he murders entire villages worth of people. I mean seriously, come on.
Maybe during the Calm, the Fayth are unable to become Aeons? It does seem silly if they can, and they just wait. The people of Spira probably just want to chill and enjoy the Calm, and not have to worry about the impending doom.
Or just get a army or summoners and sent them to Zanakand and just let them attack hell out of the thing till it dies. Spend the ten years training them up and make sure they have most of the summons and have White Mages spare for healing.
Or just do it like they did in FFX.
If there had been no/next to no downtime, then Kilika and Mushroom Rock Road wouldn't have happened. That's a lot of people dead over tradition.
Yeah, I think that was the point the game was trying to make.Quote:
Originally Posted by Jiro
It's not ten years though. Ten years passed since Braska took down Sin, yes, but we never get a time for how long it takes Sin to come back.
FFX-2, however, would suggest that it's actually less than two years. If it was more than that, the majority of Spira wouldn't be likely to accept the whole "Sin never comes back" thing, since the time limit hadn't gone by yet.
So you probably have between a year, to a year and a half. And the journey is across most of Spira, it isn't safe, and it isn't fast. People might try to complete it, but some will die, plenty won't want to be summoners in the first place, and others just won't finish in time.
Pretty much thought of the same thing while I was playing. Or why couldn't these summoners just band together and whup the behinds of the big bad monsters on the road, train in the process, and have a summoner army with 99 999 damage each kill Sin. Methinks too much time spent on blitzball. Haha.
So we chalk it up to plot convenience that ~8 years of Sin terrorising Spira passes before we get three potential high summoners, not including Seymour. Though I guess there was that failed pilgrimage of Lulu's and whatnot, but god, seems to be a shortage of competent people out there. :/Quote:
Originally Posted by Skyblade
Do you really think Dona and Isaaru would have made it the entire way?Quote:
Originally Posted by JiroSo we chalk it up to plot convenience that ~8 years of Sin terrorising Spira passes before we get three potential high summoners, not including Seymour. Though I guess there was that failed pilgrimage of Lulu's and whatnot, but god, seems to be a shortage of competent people out there. :/Quote:
Originally Posted by Skyblade
I mean, heck, there have only been 4 High Summoners in a thousand years. Think of how many have tried and failed. Heck, we see evidence of this in the gravemarkers and piles of weapons on Gagazet. All from summoners and guardians who died.
Dona would have frozen to death before she made it across the mountain. And Isaaru would have slipped and fallen to his death.
But Dona does make it to the end. If you don't tell her to quit her pilgrimage on the airship and then return to the Zanarkand Trials to get the secret treasure for Anima there, Dona is in front of the trials and you tell her to leave everything to you.Quote:
Originally Posted by SkybladeDo you really think Dona and Isaaru would have made it the entire way?Quote:
Originally Posted by JiroSo we chalk it up to plot convenience that ~8 years of Sin terrorising Spira passes before we get three potential high summoners, not including Seymour. Though I guess there was that failed pilgrimage of Lulu's and whatnot, but god, seems to be a shortage of competent people out there. :/Quote:
Originally Posted by Skyblade
I mean, heck, there have only been 4 High Summoners in a thousand years. Think of how many have tried and failed. Heck, we see evidence of this in the gravemarkers and piles of weapons on Gagazet. All from summoners and guardians who died.
Dona would have frozen to death before she made it across the mountain. And Isaaru would have slipped and fallen to his death.
But it's true that most summoners probably fail their journey. And with a ratio of only 6 successful pilgrimages in 1000 years, no wonder there are so few people who actually attempt to get the Final Summoning. The pilgrimage is harder than the game makes it seem (plus most summoners don't have 6 guardians).
All that crap about having fewer guardians really makes it tough to succeed, but the points raised are valid. There is a distinct lack of qualified candidates. Makes you wonder why Seymour was allowed to give it up.
Remember that Lulu has been a guardian three times now, with her first two both ending at the calm lands. Summoners are not that uncommon. Also the pilgrimage is not the only things summoners do. they are a key part of Yevon, and perform the sending.
True, but can you imagine how many less summoners you would need if you could take Sin out early? As a side note, what determines whether a person needs a sending? Summoners are done away with entirely come Final Fantasy X-2, so all those dead people must not be too heartbroken about it.
As far as I can tell, a soul needs a sending if they can't accept their death. The sending soothes them and teaches them to do just that.
Maybe with the passing of the summoners' time, the duty of sending the dead fell to someone else.
Two problems, first off is where does actually Yu-Yevon rebuild Sin? Secondly is that only a few people know about what Sin really is, namely Yevon, Yunalesca, and those who completed the pilgrimage.Quote:
Originally Posted by Jiro
I want to use your post to point out that I think that everyone has the timeline of the Calm off. I always assumed that it last a few months, maybe a year or two, but no longer.Quote:
Originally Posted by qwertysaur
Keep in mind that Lulu's supposed to be, what? 22? 23? I know she seems older, but Yuna's only 17. The oldest I'd guess her would be 25. So, let's say that she was 25, and Braska's Calm started 10 years prior. If it lasted a year or two, that'd put her at 17 when she was first a guardian with the girl in the Cavern (can't remember her name) and maybe 20 or 21 with the guy who became a monk.
Of course, I could be totally off, too. Especially with the monk's pilgrimage. But the game seems to imply the girl's pilgrimage was several years before the game.
Zuke quit his pilgrimage about six months before the start of the game.
I agree, although I have a different reason.Quote:
Originally Posted by Tifa's Boobs
No one would believe in the "Eternal Calm" that everyone is so gung-ho about in X-2, if it was still within the regular timeframe of Sin's resurrection. If Sin took five or ten years to come back, two years would not be anything special, and certainly wouldn't result in the world-shaking restructuring that we get in X-2.
Then too, if Sin had only just been brought back at the time of X, we would have had comments like that. People would have been mourning the Calm which just ended, been cursing that Sin came back again, etcetera. Even if people expected it, they'd be upset when it happened. Especially the kids nine and under, who wouldn't have any memories of their own about Sin at that time (of which there are several in Spira, and none of whom seem shocked to the degree they would be).
I say the Calm lasts a year, tops.
Because they don't know where Sin respawns, Spira sits and enjoys its one year of peace. And then Sin attacks, and the people go "ahhh" and everybody dies for x years until a Summoner starts and completes their journey. They get to Zanarkand, they learn the truth, and then they have to find Sin.Quote:
Originally Posted by qwertysaurTwo problems, first off is where does actually Yu-Yevon rebuild Sin? Secondly is that only a few people know about what Sin really is, namely Yevon, Yunalesca, and those who completed the pilgrimage.Quote:
Originally Posted by Jiro
How's this for an alternative: Sin is destroyed. Meanwhile, potential summoners begin/continue their pilgrimage, collecting Aeons to prove their worth. Some might fail - a lot might fail - but efforts are being made to limit the time Sin is able to wreak havoc.
Let's assume, for a moment, that someone is able to succeed in collecting the main, requisite Aeons. Now you can either have them go visit Yunalesca and obtain the Final Aeon prior to Sin's resurrection, or you could just have them wait. Either way, as soon as Sin respawns, all you need to do is find it and a) kill it or b) get the final aeon and then kill it. Makes far more sense to me, saves a lot more people, and makes Sin's threat negligible.
Of course, it might not run that smoothly, but what if it did? What if people didn't sit around and instead worked to ensure that Sin was as big a threat as natural disasters are in our time?
How do you know they're not?Quote:
Originally Posted by JiroBecause they don't know where Sin respawns, Spira sits and enjoys its one year of peace. And then Sin attacks, and the people go "ahhh" and everybody dies for x years until a Summoner starts and completes their journey. They get to Zanarkand, they learn the truth, and then they have to find Sin.Quote:
Originally Posted by qwertysaurTwo problems, first off is where does actually Yu-Yevon rebuild Sin? Secondly is that only a few people know about what Sin really is, namely Yevon, Yunalesca, and those who completed the pilgrimage.Quote:
Originally Posted by Jiro
How's this for an alternative: Sin is destroyed. Meanwhile, potential summoners begin/continue their pilgrimage, collecting Aeons to prove their worth. Some might fail - a lot might fail - but efforts are being made to limit the time Sin is able to wreak havoc.
Let's assume, for a moment, that someone is able to succeed in collecting the main, requisite Aeons. Now you can either have them go visit Yunalesca and obtain the Final Aeon prior to Sin's resurrection, or you could just have them wait. Either way, as soon as Sin respawns, all you need to do is find it and a) kill it or b) get the final aeon and then kill it. Makes far more sense to me, saves a lot more people, and makes Sin's threat negligible.
Of course, it might not run that smoothly, but what if it did? What if people didn't sit around and instead worked to ensure that Sin was as big a threat as natural disasters are in our time?
Only four summoners have ever made it to defeat Sin in a thousand years. The fact that we had a few good enough to reach Yunalesca ten years after Sin was last defeated is kind of a statistical improbability (especially getting two at once).
Summoners die on the pilgrimages. A lot. Sin may be gone, but the Sinspawn, and the other fiends are still around in multitudes. Even among those who are capable of practicing the summoner arts (which not everyone is), there aren't going to be a ton who are both skilled enough to summon the Final Aeon, and who survive to meet Yunalesca in the first place.
What's more, you can't really protect summoners on the pilgrimage. The trials, both physical and mental, are necessary. If you somehow conscripted an army and marched them across the land protecting a bunch of summoners fresh from Besaid, how many of them do you think would have the practice or skill to summon the Final Aeon? Without the development from the journey, they'd be far too weak, even if they did manage to forge the Final Aeon, to scratch Sin, because the Aeon's strength reflects that of the summoner.
And, again, this is assuming that we have a ton of candidates to begin with, which, again, we don't know that we do. We know of four living summoners. That's not exactly a lot of people to pin your hopes on a dangerous journey across an extremely hostile world. And for all we know, that might be a high number. Heck, we know that the same Fayth can't be used for a summoning by more than one summoner at a time, so I'd consider it highly unlikely for it to even be possible to get more summoners than there are Fayth. Maybe the reason Yuna had to spend so long before the Fayth accepted her was because they weren't too keen on handing out their powers to yet another human before the others had failed or succeeded.
You're making a lot of assumptions about what goes on in a time period that we know next to nothing about.
Assumptions are the point! How else would we have had this discussion? I want to discuss what is and what is not likely in the unexplored parts of this game, for it is a marvellous piece of art that deserves appreciation and interpretation and exploration, and other excellent nominalisations.
I still find it odd that they would let such a powerful summoner like Seymour abandon his pilgrimage. The fact that he totes himself as a beacon of hope is rather laughable; I would have found it far more inspiring to know that he was out there, prepared to fight the good fight, rather than playing politics and religion - though I might have felt a little differently were I to live in that world with a world view shaped by Yu Yevon.
But Seymour is balls powerful. He probably could have done it. Stepping aside is strange, even if his ultimate goal was to become Sin, but that's probably strolling too far away from the questions I wanted to discuss.
Summoners could be rare, I suppose. But we have more than four: Yuna, Seymour, Dona, Isaaru, and Zuke. There could also be more, lurking within the clergy. We have evidence of others that have died along the way, and there is mention of other summoners that the Al Bhed have kidnapped. So there are likely more out there, even if they aren't all of the stature needed to defeat Sin. The fact that people are so protective of them could be due to their rarity, or it could simply be because of their status. Summoners able to succeed are not a dime a dozen, of course, but that doesn't mean ones who could succeed aren't a little more populous.
I get that the journey is dangerous. I mean, that's pretty blatantly explained; without the danger, the bonds wouldn't be strengthened enough for the Final Aeon to work. But look at it this way: Dona and her single guardian managed the journey. So it's definitely not an improbable journey, especially if you take out the unnecessary bosses that Yuna and co. fight on her pilgrimage (ie Seymour and others). It's obvious the journey is dangerous, but I imagine that there are probably plenty of summoners able to go most of the way; perhaps all they needed was a little more assistance to get over Gagazet.
My questioning stems from an impression. I don't think it was ever explicitly mentioned one way or the other, but my impression is that people revel in the Calm and hope that it never ends, despite knowing it will. So I can't imagine them preparing, even though they should.
Oh wow...
It's been way too long since I played this game to have any idea what you guys are talking about.
Gosh.
Though often I've heard these kinds of questions answered with "If it hadn't happened that way, there'd be no story."
Sort of a tangent, but going off of Seymour quitting his pilgrimage--
I wonder why he's able to still control aeons if he's no longer a "summoner."
Anima is Seymour's final aeon though, so technically he did complete his pilgrimage. Obtaining the other Aeons is a test to see if you can actually fight. If you can't kill a run of the mill fiend in Spira, you stand no chance against Sin. Why else would Yunalesca send the Sanctuary Keeper and the Spectral Keeper to fight all who come to Zanarkand? It's a trial by fire.
It is also never mentioned how many Summoners received their final aeon from Yunalesca and still lost to Sin.
I always thought it was more to do with religion and tradition that is the reason why no one ever changed the way things were, I mean look how head strong Wakka is at the start of the game. It's not until the fayths injected Tidus that they could really start to change the cycle.
If I'm not mistaken the people deciding to become a summoner have to study and train also. Only when they have completed their studies they attempt to gain their first Aeon.
Here's the facts:
- In the 1000 years that Sin has rampaged on Spira, only 5 Summoners have defeated it, excluding Yuna. Those are: Yunalesca, Gandof, Ohalland, Yocun and Braska.
- The Calm is an undefined amount of time between resurrections. Ergo, one cannot even be sure when Sin will return. It could be 10 years, or it could be a day. There is no knowing.
Now here is a bit of speculation on my part.
In the ending of the game, we see Sin explode into Pyreflies, along with all the Aeons. We do not know if this is how Sin dies when defeated regularly, but let's assume that it isn't. It can then be assumed that, with such a large explosion of pyreflies that a lot of Spira's residents will have seen it and figured that something has happened. Something that hasn't happened before. Followed by Yuna's announcement in the Blitzball stadium AND the fact that Yuna, herself, is STILL alive and Sin ISN'T, it can be safely (at least to me anyway) that Sin is truly dead and that the Eternal Calm is real. Implying that the age of Summoners is past.