Rinoa: Great Heroine, or annoying, stupid damsel?

(SPOILER)http://i181.photobucket.com/albums/x...loti/rinoa.jpg

FFVIII is littered with underdeveloped and forgettable playable characters. Squall and Rinoa ae the ones who undergo any significant change or have any relevance to the central story.

ANd yet people tend to harp on both of them because their development is...well, not very good. Squall gets less hate because his own personality is much less in your face than Rinoa's.

But ya know? I prefer Rinoa. SHe's positively gorgeous, she acts in a rather realistic manner given her upbringing and while people love to bring up how Squall calls her out on her BS, she also calls Squall out on his being a jackass.

Ultimately there are much more offensive and badly handled character in her game. I found her sweet.

Discuss.

People found her whiny, stuck-up, and not exactly the heroine type. I though it was refreshing at the time to have someone play hero outside of the stereotype.

I hated Rinoa with a burning passion. She was bland, boring and stupid. You could blame her dumb personality on the way she was brought up, yeah. But..

No. I don't think I'll do that. She is one of THE worst characters in this game. I like Zell more than I like her. In the end, I prefer Squall.

Didn't mind Rinoa, but yeah, she's not the sharpest knife in the drawer. Or so it feels, bearing in mind that the rest of your team are trained professionals and she's just kinda tagging along.

The problem, for me, is that Rinoa remains a pain in the ass. She brings up herself the fact that she gets scared about falling behind the others, but instead of taking a moment to watch and try to emulate the behaviour and attitude and approach of her comrades, she just bumbles forwards shrieking "I'm helping!" and forcing the party to save her ass once more.

I really want to like her, because there are some really excellent threads, but she just falls short for me. And the worst thing is that she seems to get less competent as the game continues and the stakes escalate.

She's naive. And it can be endearing at times, but the fact that she essentially -doesn't- grow or progress into a smarter or more mature person makes her lame in the end.

That's not her fault though. Blame the writers.

All of the female characters in Final Fantasy history smack of it being written exclusively by males.

Just sayin'.

Okay, I was always a bit shallow as a little girl (still kind of am...hey at least I'm honest) and my favorite character in any video game was always the girl I found the prettiest. I gravitate more towards male characters now :P. The only exception to this was Vivi from IX. The prettiest girl in this game is Rinoa (imo). Actually imo, she was prettier than Tifa, Garnet, and Yuna, the 4 FF games I started out with so she was like my favoritest character in any Final Fantasy game (except Vivi). I looooooved Rinoa.

Now the more I replay the game, the less I like her. I don't dislike her, but she's been bumped down to tied for least favorite character in Final Fantasy VIII. That's a huge drop.

She's just kind of...annoying. She's also kind of stuck up and loudmouthish and the older I get the less I like characters like that. I prefer someone softer spoken and well mannered. She....was not. For the most part. She had some moments I really liked and I can identify with her character to some degree and I'm a huge fan of the Squall x Rinoa love story (it's my favorite of the series) but her on her own? Not the greatest.

On the plus side, Rinoa wins the award for best-dressed woman in a Final Fantasy game, hands down.

Damsel ?- Yes

Great Heroine ?- Yes

Annoying waste of space ? No stop being envious of this gul hmm~hm ! Nobody got time for that !

Rinoa is a bit like Princess Zelda and Princess Peach. She needs saving alot, but that doesn't make her any less of a good character. Rinoa is a kind, warm-spirited girl that despite having no army training like the rest, at least tries to make a effort. She is a lover and not a fighter and that's okay. Not everybody can be physically tough.

I would rather have a nice and kind character that helps her friends than a physically tough chick that treats her friends like they're below her or like dirt. ** Cough Lightning Cougghh, cooough ** Sorry ugh, seem to be catching a cold. Damn Winter. :greenie:

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Originally Posted by maybee

Damsel ?- Yes

Great Heroine ?- Yes

Annoying waste of space ? No stop being envious of this gul hmm~hm ! Nobody got time for that !

Rinoa is a bit like Princess Zelda and Princess Peach. She needs saving alot, but that doesn't make her any less of a good character. Rinoa is a kind, warm-spirited girl that despite having no army training like the rest, at least tries to make a effort. She is a lover and not a fighter and that's okay. Not everybody can be physically tough.

I would rather have a nice and kind character that helps her friends than a physically tough chick that treats her friends like they're below her or like dirt. ** Cough Lightning Cougghh, cooough ** Sorry ugh, seem to be catching a cold. Damn Winter. :greenie:

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Hey, my opinion differs from yours, I love Lightning and hate Rinoa! Time to bash- I mean.. Politely disagree with you! And combat your beliefs with my own! En garde, good sir!

Yeah she is a damsel, I know and yeah.. She is the heroine, though not great by any means. Annoying waste of space? Well.. To tell the truth, yes. SHE IS SUCH A TASTELESS, POOR WRITTEN, BLAND PIECE OF- Pie.. Yes.. A piece of pie.. And pies don't make good characters.

It wasn't even any of these things that bothered me greatly.. What got to me the most, and was the main problem of the game for me, was the horrid writing for her character and how downright STUPID she is. Not to mention the disc launcher.. I mean.. Could we not have given her a gun? Or a staff? Hell, anything would have worked besides the stupid disc launcher. Hope's boomerang is more forgiving then that!

AND RINOA LAUNCHES ANGELO AT ENEMIES, LETS NOT FORGET SHE IS A CLEAR ADVOCATE OF ANIMAL ABUSE.

maybee's post just makes me think of Olivier Armstrong from FMA mang/Brotherhood.

I would also prefer a warm-spirited and kind girl over a totally unlikable bitch like her. She makes Lightning look like a fluffy kitten.

I don't think Rinoa is a waste of space because it would be hard for the plot to progress past say the assassination attempt without her :monster:

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Originally Posted by Red Mage Coffman

Hey, my opinion differs from yours, I love Lightning and hate Rinoa!

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Many people think this way though, it's not uncommon.

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Originally Posted by Red Mage Coffman

Yeah she is a damsel, I know and yeah.. She is the heroine, though not great by any means. Annoying waste of space? Well.. To tell the truth, yes. SHE IS SUCH A TASTELESS, POOR WRITTEN, BLAND PIECE OF- Pie.. Yes.. A piece of pie.. And pies don't make good characters.

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I very disagree with this because it was Rinoa that helped Squall overcome his trust issues and Hedgehog Dilemma; She was kind, supportive and always welcome to be the sunshine within the group of friends. Her emotional intelligence is pretty high. She sees through Squall's wall pretty fast and because of that she's able to help him understand and overcome his issues and problems with life.

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Originally Posted by Red Mage Coffman

It wasn't even any of these things that bothered me greatly.. What got to me the most, and was the main problem of the game for me, was the orrid writing for her character and how downright STUPID she is.

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So her being able to work out Squall's personal wall was unintelligent of her ? Her helping Squall makes her dumb and her wanting to fight despite being scared and afraid makes her dumb ? I think that it makes her rather brave and tougher than most people think; people seem to forget that she wasn't a SeeD or army trained like the rest of the teens.

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Originally Posted by Red Mage Coffman

Not to mention the disc launcher.. I mean.. Could we not have given her a gun? Or a staff? Hell, anything would have worked besides the stupid disc launcher. Hope's boomerang is more forgiving then that!

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You are taking a game called Final FANTASY too seriously. Plus it was the Rocket version of a Australasian Boomerang.

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Originally Posted by Red Mage Coffman

AND RINOA LAUNCHES ANGELO AT ENEMIES, LETS NOT FORGET SHE IS A CLEAR ADVOCATE OF ANIMAL ABUSE.

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Again you are taking a game called Final FANTASY too seriously. Plus Shadow from Final Fantasy VI uses his Dog for battles as well.

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Originally Posted by maybee

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Originally Posted by Red Mage Coffman

Hey, my opinion differs from yours, I love Lightning and hate Rinoa!

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Many people think this way though, it's not uncommon.

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Originally Posted by Red Mage Coffman

Yeah she is a damsel, I know and yeah.. She is the heroine, though not great by any means. Annoying waste of space? Well.. To tell the truth, yes. SHE IS SUCH A TASTELESS, POOR WRITTEN, BLAND PIECE OF- Pie.. Yes.. A piece of pie.. And pies don't make good characters.

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I very disagree with this because it was Rinoa that helped Squall overcome his trust issues and Hedgehog Dilemma; She was kind, supportive and always welcome to be the sunshine within the group of friends. Her emotional intelligence is pretty high. She sees through Squall's wall pretty fast and because of that she's able to help him understand and overcome his issues and problems with life.

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Originally Posted by Red Mage Coffman

It wasn't even any of these things that bothered me greatly.. What got to me the most, and was the main problem of the game for me, was the orrid writing for her character and how downright STUPID she is.

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So her being able to work out Squall's personal wall was unintelligent of her ? Her helping Squall makes her dumb and her wanting to fight despite being scared and afraid makes her dumb ? I think that it makes her rather brave and tougher than most people think; people seem to forget that she wasn't a SeeD or army trained like the rest of the teens.

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Originally Posted by Red Mage Coffman

Not to mention the disc launcher.. I mean.. Could we not have given her a gun? Or a staff? Hell, anything would have worked besides the stupid disc launcher. Hope's boomerang is more forgiving then that!

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You are taking a game called Final FANTASY too seriously. Plus it was the Rocket version of a Australasian Boomerang.

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Originally Posted by Red Mage Coffman

AND RINOA LAUNCHES ANGELO AT ENEMIES, LETS NOT FORGET SHE IS A CLEAR ADVOCATE OF ANIMAL ABUSE.

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Again you are taking a game called Final FANTASY too seriously. Plus Shadow from Final Fantasy VI uses his Dog for battles as well.

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OBJECTION! Sort of.

I guess I'll start with the things I can counter best! Starting with the Disc Launcher or Australasian Boomerang or whatever it is. One, I flat out don't like it and it is one of the worst designs in this whole series. Who goes into battle with one of those? I mean.. Come on. I'm not even poking at Rinoa for that, that issue belongs to whoever decided to stick one of those on her and not something more practical and realistic. And yeah, I know. There are dumb weapons in the series, but that doesn't mean that I can't make fun of them with all I've got. Oh, and come on man! Shadow uses a dog, I know, but he doesn't launch it at the enemies with a Disc Launcher! I'd be willing to bet Shadow's dog is more trained than Angelo as well. One more important point, I know that it's Final Fantasy, but I think everyone can agree that VIII took a far more realistic turn than the rest of the series (At least during the first disc, anyways..), so expect me to look for realistic things! If it makes you feel any better, I feel the same way about a dozen other weapons, but at least they're cool to an extent. Key word. Extent. Rinoa and her Dog Launcher just.. I mean.. Need I say more? Onward!

Next point to make is that I blame the writers for how terribly bad Rinoa is. Really, some of the dumbest, most childish moments occurred with her. And ya know, she was probably meant to be written that way. And that is the exact problem. She was written to be stupid and childish. I realize she was sheltered her whole life, I realize she doesn't have military training or anything, and that does not bother me at all. Plenty of characters are like that. Hope, Tidus, etc, I understand it. But when these guys have flat out terrible writing and flat out stupid moments in the game that just blow common sense out of the water? It isn't the most appealing thing. My biggest example is when she tried to take down the sorcerer herself. That one man solo mission she pulls off? Yeah, STUPID. Its like how Irvine didn't shoot at all or mention about how everyone grew up together until it was convenient for the plot. I mean. It isn't necessarily the characters fault as much as it is the writers, but still. Writers make characters/story and the characters leave impacts on me. Rinoa left me feeling like I was baby sitting a childish nincompoop. Makes me feel glad that Quistis told her off. Amen Quistis, respect for that.

Rinoa was just slapped in to fall in love with Squall and to further carry on the theme of Fate and Destiny and all that stuff. I mean.. Quistis attempts knowing Squall, Zell attempts it, Selphie, in a way, everyone attempts it. Rinoa succeeds for the sole reason of "I'M THE LOVE INTEREST" and when that happened, Squall warmed up to everyone and blah, blah. What Squall and Rinoa had? That wasn't love. It wasn't love at all, there was little to NO developing of this. It just sort of developed out of thin air after Disc 2. Which is why I am a proud supporter of the Squall is Dead theory, even if it IS just a theory, its much better than the actual game. I prefer to call the whole romance between the two.. "Plot Device." Plot Device ALL the way.

In the end, I blame the writers for making me hate this annoying waste of space.

The Blaster Edge is kind of a stupid weapon. I'll grant that. But Fujin's chakram is also a stupid weapon, as are Kiros's katals and the concept of a gunblade. Criticising Rinoa on her choice of weapon seems odd when there are way worse things to focus on.

Angelo does a double backflip to return to Rinoa after causing an explosions and damaging enemies. I highly doubt she is in any danger of being hurt; the only "animal" violence is conducted against Moombas and monsters.

Blaming the writers is just about all you can do. Who else are you going to blame? The writers made her that way. The fact that we found her to be stupid and childish is highly likely to be deliberate, and still fits within her (attempted) development. She's a spoilt brat, and is told as much by Quistis. She is not a trained professional mercenary. She has abandonment issues because her dad was never home and her mother died. She spent most of her life in a gigantic smurfing mansion, and then joined a troutty little resistance group that doesn't actively fight, where she is known as "the princess."

She is supposed to be like this. You say "common sense" but the adage is that common sense isn't common, and everybody is an idiot. People don't always make logical decisions, especially under pressure, especially when emotional, especially when they feel left out, and especially when they have something to prove. Rinoa thought she had a good plan, thought she had an avenue to work, and thought the party wasn't listening to her. If I were her, I would have tried to take Odine's Bangle to her too. There's no logical reason it wouldn't work.

You're not allowed to bring in the worst plot point in the entire game as evidence against Rinoa too, by the way :greenie: The convenient amnesia trope doesn't include her. And even though it feels incredibly weak, it still fits. It's not illogical. There's an element of story-gameplay segregation, and it's hard get a grasp on Irvine's reactions 'cause they're not quite lining up with what he says later, but it's still not so much a hole as it is a hilarious asspull.

"Convenient to the plot" will, you'll find, explain a lot of things in a lot of mediums incl. tv, movies, games, and books. People bring up the Eagles from LotR - why didn't they just fly to Morder and drop off the ring and evil would be vanquished? Well, that would be one hell of a short book (mind you, Tolkien would find a way to flesh it out, and Peter Jackson would still make a trilogy of films about it). The fact that Sephiroth only starts putting his plan into motion when the party are able to stop him is super convenient too; had he started earlier, or later, and not precisely when Cloud and co. entered Shinra HQ, he would have succeeded unhindered.

Your last point sticks. Rinoa succeeds at opening Squall up because it was necessary and it was not done in a way that I find believable at all. I cannot believe that Squall developed feelings for her at the drop of the hat, which leaves the only possible explanation as "he would've flipped out over losing anyone under his command/that he's fought so long with" and that I can't see happening either. Squall is a goddamn rock and somehow they made him cry and I didn't think it worked at all, but hey, smurf, it did, so at least we got the rest of the game.

Squall is Dead is an awesome theory.

And lastly, most things are a plot device, it's just about how cleverly disguised they are.

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Originally Posted by Red Mage Coffman

OBJECTION! Sort of

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http://www.picgifs.com/anime/anime/p...ght-470900.gif

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Originally Posted by Red Mage Coffman

I guess I'll start with the things I can counter best! Starting with the Disc Launcher or Australasian Boomerang or whatever it is. One, I flat out don't like it and it is one of the worst designs in this whole series. Who goes into battle with one of those? I mean.. Come on.

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If you don't like Rinoa's weapon that's fine, you have a right to have your opinion but I disagree because some later desgins can look rather neat.

http://fc03.deviantart.net/fs70/f/20..._by_yuanie.jpg

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Originally Posted by Red Mage Coffman

Oh, and come on man! Shadow uses a dog, I know, but he doesn't launch it at the enemies with a Disc Launcher! I'd be willing to bet Shadow's dog is more trained than Angelo as well.

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Doesn't matter how well trained Interceptor is. Clyde still used Interceptor in battles. Where he can steal get hurt and even die. The Rocket Launcher makes it look silly and not be able to take realistically because it's not. Interceptor however is being used more real like and therefore a little more painful. It's unfair to bash on Rinoa using her dog in battles and let Shadow get away with him using Interceptor. It's unfair and biased[ and this is coming from a Interceptor fan btw]

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Originally Posted by Red Mage Coffman

One more important point, I know that it's Final Fantasy, but I think everyone can agree that VIII took a far more realistic turn than the rest of the series (At least during the first disc, anyways..), so expect me to look for realistic things! If it makes you feel any better, I feel the same way about a dozen other weapons, but at least they're cool to an extent. Key word. Extent. Rinoa and her Dog Launcher just.. I mean.. Need I say more? Onward!

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True but it's still a fantasy game. I mean how many young SeeD soldiers do you know in real life ? I mean what is a girl like Selphie doing in a militarily and like being hyped about a summer festival like it's High School. Plus Gunblades

Tally Ho !

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Originally Posted by Red Mage Coffman

Next point to make is that I blame the writers for how terribly bad Rinoa is. Really, some of the dumbest, most childish moments occurred with her. And ya know, she was probably meant to be written that way. And that is the exact problem. She was written to be stupid and childish. I realize she was sheltered her whole life, I realize she doesn't have military training or anything, and that does not bother me at all. Plenty of characters are like that. Hope, Tidus, etc, I understand it.

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Tidus and Hope didn't go to Balamb Garden. Tidus was a dream and he was transported to a different universe so his life is completely different from Squalls, Selphie, Zell and the rest. Hope lost his Mum and again his life was different; he wasn't trained from about age five to be a child solider. Squall and everybody else apart from Rinoa was trained from early childhood to be a Solider and basically do risky trout like the Parade mission, Balamb War and moving the Garden and even the missile base. Rinoa who grew up in Deling City would of had no idea. Yeah she was rebel leader but she was being naive and it was more to get payback on Daddy because her Father was a jerk and somebody who has a jerk Dad I can understand and relate. Not to mention he's obsessed with war and studying War II and the Chinese Dynasty wars so yes, he does remind me of Caraway. :/

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Originally Posted by Red Mage Coffman

But when these guys have flat out terrible writing and flat out stupid moments in the game that just blow common sense out of the water? It isn't the most appealing thing. My biggest example is when she tried to take down the sorcerer herself. That one man solo mission she pulls off?

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Rinoa wanted to prove that she's strong and smart and just as tough as Squall and the others. Everybody was putting her down and treating her like a baby and Caraway locking her in like a Cat didn't help matters. I can admire her for that because she wanted to be tough and stronger and braver. If she managed to beat off Edea everybody would be calling her a hero and saying that she was so badass like Lightning etc So girl can't win.

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Originally Posted by Red Mage Coffman

Yeah, STUPID. Its like how Irvine didn't shoot at all or mention about how everyone grew up together until it was convenient for the plot. I mean. It isn't necessarily the characters fault as much as it is the writers, but still. Writers make characters/story and the characters leave impacts on me. Rinoa left me feeling like I was baby sitting a childish nincompoop. Makes me feel glad that Quistis told her off. Amen Quistis, respect for that.

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Okay whatever that is your opinion on that matter and frankly I can't stand Quistis because she was popular, pretty, intelligent and had everything and soon as the loner boy doesn't like her, her world is crushed. Not to mention she screws up the Parade by wanting to apologize to Rinoa straight away like it was friendshipz timez and not you know; a serious life/ death situation.

So yes, Quistis smurfed up too. It wasn't just Rinoa.

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Originally Posted by Red Mage Coffman

Rinoa was just slapped in to fall in love with Squall and to further carry on the theme of Fate and Destiny and all that stuff. I mean.. Quistis attempts knowing Squall, Zell attempts it, Selphie, in a way, everyone attempts it. Rinoa succeeds for the sole reason of "I'M THE LOVE INTEREST" and when that happened, Squall warmed up to everyone and blah, blah. What Squall and Rinoa had? That wasn't love. It wasn't love at all, there was little to NO developing of this. It just sort of developed out of thin air after Disc 2. Which is why I am a proud supporter of the Squall is Dead theory, even if it IS just a theory, its much better than the actual game. I prefer to call the whole romance between the two.. "Plot Device." Plot Device ALL the way.

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I disagree because

CD 1- Seifer fails to be a good boyfriend/ they flirt/ they met/ they clash/ during the parade Rinoa begins to understand

CD 2- They get along during Balamb Garden Missile split-up/ FH- date thing/ Rinoa's speech during after the Orphange plot-twist makes Squall second- think about war and violence/ Squall saves Rinoa during the Garden war/ Rinoa falls into a coma

CD 3- OH trout ! I pushed this girl away when I had a crush on her and now she might die or never recover !/ Squall opens up to Rinoa on the FH bridge/ Space/ Squall saves Rinoa in Space/ Eyes on Me bit/ Saving Rinoa in Esthar/ Rinoa's speech by the Orphanage Flower garden.

CD 4- Rinoa searching for Squall through time/ The Ending

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Originally Posted by Red Mage Coffman

In the end, I blame the writers for making me hate this annoying waste of space.

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You say Toe-mate-o I say Tae-mate-o

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Originally Posted by Jiro

Your last point sticks. Rinoa succeeds at opening Squall up because it was necessary and it was not done in a way that I find believable at all. I cannot believe that Squall developed feelings for her at the drop of the hat, which leaves the only possible explanation as "he would've flipped out over losing anyone under his command/that he's fought so long with" and that I can't see happening either. Squall is a goddamn rock and somehow they made him cry and I didn't think it worked at all, but hey, smurf, it did, so at least we got the rest of the game.

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Speaking from a real life trust issue problem sort of like Squall's no it can take years, months, days and tons of loss friendships and smurf ups and learning and alot of roller-coaster like days to try and at least learn to trust somebody again. Though speaking from a Final Fantasy POV that has girls with green-hair and can summon monsters from the ground the way that Rinoa helped Squall recover was sweet. She was able too because of her working out rather quickly that Squall wasn't a jerk by the Parade and then trying to get to know him more and trying to tell him during the FH date that it's the time that is now is what matters.

Also Rinoa falling into coma made Squall realize rather fast that he can't take people that he cares about for granted anymore. RL trust issues are not fixed so easily speaking from a personal experience. You are one of the first people here that I've felt okay speaking with Jiro tbh.

But from a Final Fantasy pov I think that it was done okay and was done in a sweet manner. It could of been done much better, but it was pretty sweet and emotional for a Fantasy game that involves things like a Gunblade and High School like Army base.

I just want to say that I do honestly think Rinoa cared about liberating Timber and wasn't just part of the resistance group to say "foo on you daddy!" It's just that she comes from an entirely different world from the other Forest Owls. She hadn't lost her parents to Deling's tyranny or had her home invaded. She's working with the same level of empathy you or I can use when we think about those starving children in Africa = yeah, it bums us out, but we don't have first hand knowledge of it.

Rinoa was obviously a nice peron, and she did sincerely want to help, but her upbringing kept her from appreciating the struggles of those who lived in Timber. But at least she tried and I respect that.

Since "this" argument (the "the love story comes out of nowhere" argument) has sprung up again, obligatory C&P. All credit goes to fireinthewronghole on GameFAQs.

Very, very long analysis of Squall

When he was a child, Squall was so emotionally weak that he was severely traumatized when Ellone left. So he decided that from then on, he will fix that emotional weakness by living a solitary lifestyle and never getting close to anyone so he doesn't have to depend on them.

But that’s not what really happened. On a subconscious level, what really happened was that he was so traumatized by Ellone leaving that he developed a fear of intimacy. Getting close to anyone would make him vulnerable to getting hurt again, so he decided that he wouldn’t get close to anyone ever again. This is pretty much what he admits to Rinoa in the Ragnarok--that he's only trying to live alone because he knows that if he gets close to anybody, he'll get too attached, and he's afraid of getting hurt when they go away.

So basically, Squall was so emotionally weak that he developed a very deep fear of intimacy and he was so afraid of acknowledging this fear and actually dealing with it. Instead, he gave into his fear and fooled his conscious mind into thinking that he’s living a solitary life because this way, he won’t have to depend on anyone and he’ll be stronger because of this. Immediately after that, he tells himself that the whole point to that and everything he does from then on was for an effort to become stronger (which is again, just him overcompensating for his own emotional weakness).

So his entire life was dedicated into desperately trying to make himself stronger. He never backed down from Seifer. He tried to master a weapon that hardly anybody else has mastered. He adopted a personal symbol--the lion Griever--that he believed epitomizes strength. Etc. He even rationalizes his efforts to push people away (like Quistis at the Training Area) as him not understanding why people want to depend on other people when deep down, he was actually pushing her away because he was too afraid to let her get too close. The irony here is all his efforts to make himself stronger is actually him giving in to his emotional weakness.

Aside from his confession in the Ragnarok and his numerous introspections, there were a few moments in the game where they give this information straightforwardly actually.

One is when he's walking Rinoa to Esthar. He tells the unconscious Rinoa how he worries too much about what people think and that he puts on a façade so people wouldn't get to know the real him, which he's so insecure about. On the surface, he seems indifferent to other people's opinions, but inside, he could not be any more self-conscious.

Another is when the party believes that Seifer has died and Squall has his awkward outburst. IMO it's the one scene that really summarizes the old Squall best. It shows four very important things about him:

1. Squall gets attached to people rather easily. On the surface, Squall is trying to live a solitary lifestyle, preferring not to get attached to others, but here, we see that he's actually developed an attachment to Seifer based on how much he gets affected by his death.

Before this moment, they never show anything that indicated that Squall ever hated Seifer. He had plenty of reasons to hate Seifer (especially after the training incident) considering how Seifer supposedly always bullied Squall. But Squall seemed to be fine with it. If anything, Seifer was giving Squall what he wanted: something to push against or test his strength. Seifer was a bully, someone equally skilled to train with, a rival when it comes to mastering the gunblade, etc. And in the end, he got used to having Seifer there and missed him when he thought he was dead.

2. Squall is very self-conscious. On the surface, Squall doesn't care about other people and their opinions. But as he admits later on, he cares too much about what people think. And it's pretty apparent in this scene as well. His thoughts immediately jump from Seifer to "Will they...Will they talk about me this way if I die, too? Squall was this and that. Using past tense, saying whatever they want?"

3. Squall can't handle loss. This is the reason behind Squall's personality and the main reason behind his weird outburst in this scene. The reason why he tries not to get attached, as he confesses to Rinoa, is that he can't handle loss. And here, we see how much Seifer's supposed death unhinges Squall.

4. Squall has trouble expressing his emotions. This is why the line is supposed to be awkward. Squall doesn't regularly express himself. Squall's an introvert who desperately tries to hide himself from others. Since he gets really attached to people and he can't handle loss, it's understandable why Seifer's death would really upset him. And how he deals with it is actually pretty consistent with his character.

Putting all those things together, we can understand Squall’s reaction during that scene. In the same way the loss of his Sis led him to think "I don't want other people seeing me as a weakling," the loss of Seifer led him to think "I don't want people talking about me like this when I'm gone." Really troubled, his façade cracks for a moment, and he expresses himself awkwardly, which is completely consistent with his character.

There are plenty of other moments throughout the story that hint at Squall's true nature, most notably during the times we see him alone in his dorm. Here are just a few select lines:

Squall: (I'm fine by myself now. I have all the skills I need to survive. I'm not a child anymore. That's a lie. I don't know anything. I'm confused. I don't want to depend on anyone. How can I do that? Someone tell me... Someone? So I'll end up depending on others after all.)

Squall: (Am I that untrusting...? Maybe I'm this way because I'm scared. Nothing lasts in this world. It feels great to have friends who believe in you, and adults you can rely on. That's why it's so dangerous, especially if you become used to it. Someday you're bound to lose everything. Everyone around you will be gone. Then what are you left with? Nothing. Nobody... It's so miserable. And it's inevitable. It's so hard to recover from something like that. I never ever want to deal with that again. I can't. Even if it means being alone...)

You can clearly see Squall's decision to distance himself from others simply because he's afraid of getting hurt, but at the same time, you see how he actually longs for companionship. That second one is particularly noteworthy because it’s the line that’s meant to sum up Squall’s character and foreshadow the possibility of losing Rinoa and Squall’s reaction to it (as well as the rationale behind it: ”That‘s why it‘s so dangerous, especially if you become used to it“--but I‘ll get deeper into that later).

Squall: We're in the middle of nowhere. Man, I'm bored... I hate having nothing to do. It gets me thinking too much. I hope Selphie and the others are all right. Was it wrong for me to let them go? I wonder how ____ and ____ felt about it.
And here you see that Squall actually cares for the others despite what he wants others to believe. And he starts to care more about them as time goes on.
Squall: (Yes! They're alright!) Hey, Selphie. ____, ____. It's great to see you guys.

His internal conflict, increasing concern and feelings for the others, etc.--these are given straight to the audience (some more subtly than others) even outside of optional dialogues.

That brings us to one common misconception people get about Squall: that he suddenly goes from being annoyed with Rinoa to being completely in love with her. Now, knowing how easily he gets attached to people and his fear of loss, it’s safe to assume that he had gotten a little used to her and was simply afraid of losing her when she went into a coma. It wasn't entirely out of love that he carried her all the way to Esthar. He had some feelings for her then, but what he did then was still mainly out of his deep fear of loss. Everything he did during that part was actually quite consistent with his character and not at all a sudden 180 like people seem to believe.

Before Squall carries Rinoa to Esthar, there are actually some earlier signs that Squall was beginning to have some feelings for Rinoa. This is a lot more clearer if the player selects the "nicer" dialogue options in the game, which lets one see Squall's internal changes--especially regarding Rinoa--much better. For example, if the player does not send Rinoa to the missile base, the player gets to see that Squall is beginning to grow fond of the rest of his teammates and the "nice" option allows Squall to open up to Rinoa about this. And if Squall sends Rinoa to the missile base, then the "nice" option has Squall admitting to Rinoa that he missed her.

But the criticism isn't usually of the earlier parts of their romance. No, people seem to think that it's Squall's later actions--talking about hearing Rinoa's voice again, carrying her to Esthar--that were too sudden and out of character. But it's really not.

Rarely acting on his own and being socially inept, Squall doesn't know how he's supposed to deal with issues himself, which is why he's so comfortable with taking orders and just going with the flow. This fact about Squall is made apparent in scenes where he's supposed to make some important decision but is extremely hesitant to do so. One good part where this can be seen--although it might not be obvious--is just before the assassination attempt and Squall is talking about how right and wrong do not exist. It helps to realize that a lot of Squall's internal monologues and introspection is actually Squall having a conversation with himself, and a lot of times he's basically trying to convince himself of something he does not actually believe in. This is no different. By convincing himself that right and wrong do not exist, he was rationalizing his moral beliefs away, absolving himself of any guilt he may have for not acting on anything aside from what he's been ordered to do. (Separating himself from his own beliefs and emotions is basically Squall's last step in completely disconnecting himself from everybody.)

But the fact that Squall is not used to deciding based on what he really wants is why, when faced with the possibility of losing someone yet again (and someone that he's apparently fond of), he didn't know how to react properly and did something as extreme as trying to walk all the way to Esthar carrying Rinoa on his back.

There are other earlier instances where Squall is torn during an important decision, like when Rinoa was being attacked by the Iguions or when she was hanging from a cliff. But even in those moments, Squall was clearly torn between doing what he thinks a "strong" person would do and what he wants to do. Squall wasn't apathetic in those earlier moments--he was just reluctant to break the false ideals he had tried to live by up until that point. (And his extreme display of supposed apathy is again, just an overcompensation caused by his social awkwardness.) And ultimately Rinoa won out every time, since in all those moments, Squall threw out the mission at hand in order to save her. Maybe initially it was out of obligation or because he was pestered into it, but again, as the player progresses through the game, it should be somewhat clear that Squall was developing something for Rinoa.

When Rinoa became lifeless, Squall finally reached a breaking point, and from there on out he really has thrown out everything else in order to save her. It's not at all sudden, and his overreaction is not out of character given his established social ineptitude.

But again, I don't think Squall went overboard like that because he was in love with her. Not yet. At that point, even though he did have feelings for her, he was still acting more out of his fear of losing people. It's the scene in the Ragnarok that sealed the deal. It's that moment when he finally discarded his fear of intimacy, confided to somebody else, and became emotionally close with her that you're supposed to interpret as him falling for Rinoa. She (along with the others) had been getting him to open up slowly all throughout the game, so this isn't something sudden either. Even back when she was unconscious, he had already started admitting things to himself. But now, he was able to confide to someone else something that he's spent his whole life running away from. And it should understandable why an introvert like Squall would fall for a person who could get him to open up like that.

On that note, there's a little observation that I'd like to add. I think the imagery and meaning behind the Strength tarot card matches Squall really well. (Now I'm no expert on tarot cards, but I have studied them a bit--I own three decks even--and I find it fascinating how many FF characters match up perfectly to a certain arcane--not just to the archetypes, but the symbolisms as well--such as Bartz to Fool, Cloud and Sephiroth to Tower, Squall to Strength, etc.)

The Strength card refers to inner strength and one of the traditional representation of the Strength card is the image of a woman passively placing her hand on a lion, seemingly taming it with her touch. It’s meant to represent either using inner strength to control our primal drives or the value of inner strength over physical strength. (Sound familiar already?)

The lion is Griever--and again, Griever itself is a representation of Squall's false ideal of strength. The woman is Rinoa, representing Squall's inner strength. While others perceived Squall as being strong, confident, and collected on the surface, we see that he is weak, self-conscious, and conflicted inside. It was Rinoa who gave Squall the inner strength he needed to stop living in denial and shatter this false image of strength he's put up; face his fears of intimacy, loneliness, and loss; and finally open himself up to others. So like the card, Rinoa tames Griever, and Squall finds his inner strength.

And so "Lion Heart/Leonhart" fits quite well with that theme actually. The lion's true strength didn't lie on the surface,but rather, in his heart. (Cheesy as that may sound.)

It should be mentioned that Ultimecia's personal story actually parallels Squall's. Ultimecia was so determined to avoid her fate that she dedicated her entire life to avoiding it, but wound up triggering the chain of events that ultimately made it possible. Compare that to Squall's story: to rid himself of his emotional fragility, he developed a defense mechanism that would dictate his whole lifestyle, but in truth, he was actually giving into it even further. There's a lot of irony in their efforts to change their own fates.

And Squall's story not only parallels Ultimecia's, but Cloud's as well. FFVII SPOILERS: Both Cloud and Squall deal with the issue of having to find the inner strength to shed a false persona (that they made for themselves to compensate for a perceived weaknesses) in order to uncover their true selves. The only difference is in execution. Cloud's was done with fantasy elements and Squall's was more realistic. Also, Cloud was basically transformed to Squall in AC. In AC, Cloud was traumatized by earlier experiences of loss and distances himself from others in order to avoid any further pain. That's pretty much Squall's deal in FFVIII, complete with the supposed claim of apathy ("Not interested." = "Whatever.")

Unlike Ultimecia, Laguna isn’t in the story as a parallel to Squall, but rather as a foil. There are many ways in which these two characters are opposites of each other. Squall is introverted; Laguna openly speaks his mind (like with Julia in the hotel room or the fact that he’s a writer). Squall is self-conscious; Laguna doesn’t seem to mind his image (apart from the understandable nervousness he gets when speaking with the girl he likes). Squall wants to just go with the flow and follow orders; Laguna wants to follow his dreams. Squall doesn’t want to act on his own moral beliefs, which makes him hesitant to help others; Laguna doesn’t hesitate to help others and does what he thinks is right (like fighting monsters in Winhill or saving the moomba in Esthar). Squall is afraid of intimacy and loss; Laguna builds many relationships throughout his journey, and experiences plenty of losses as well (Julia, Raine, Ellone, his son). And lastly, as Rinoa notes in the Ragnarok, Squall missed out on a lot of things in life because of his solitary lifestyle; and while Laguna has loved and lost, it seems as though he’s lived a fuller life.

And while Laguna is the opposite of Squall, Seifer instead has several of Squall's desired traits taken to extremes. Seifer has no concern for the feelings of others; he disregards personal obligations; and he eventually rids himself of his friends. Even Seifer's "romantic dream" could be equated to Squall's desire to become a strong individual.

And maybe this is part of why Squall never hated Seifer despite having many reasons to. Squall actually respected and admired Seifer because in his mind, Seifer was just like the kind of person he would want to be. But eventually, as the main party gets Squall to open his eyes, he starts seeing the flaws behind his life philosophy through Seifer. Blindly following orders without any regard for the morality behind his choices, as well as severing ties with people who care about what happened to him has not only landed Seifer with the villains, but has also reduced him to "a lapdog" as Squall himself noted.

The other characters are there not just to help further Squall’s development, but to mirror a side of Squall’s true self. Zell seeks validation, is very emotional, and is prone to overreact. Quistis desperately wants to reach out to someone. Selphie puts on a façade of happiness to mask her sadness. And Irvine also puts on a front, but is deep down a sensitive person who longs for his past. More importantly, they’re all acting on a loneliness they’ve had inside since their childhood.

Anyway, understanding Squall’s growth actually helps one to understand FFVIII’s ending as the events there parallel his growth. Initially, Squall is fixated on some trauma from the past and he keeps going back to that in his mind throughout the entire game. His fixation is what lands him in the past during the ending. As mentioned in the game, to ride out time compression, one must focus on other people and on a particular place. Squall is supposed to think about the orphanage, but his obsession with his past lands him in the wrong time. And Ultimecia’s obsession with her fate (she either fixates on Squall or the time/location where SeeD is first created) is what takes her to Squall. (Note that this event echoes Ultimecia’s story as well.)

In the story, Squall comes to terms with that trauma from his past instead of just burying it. And in the ending, Squall gives Edea the idea to create SeeD, showing that Squall accepts that he can’t change the past, so he simply has to accept it. And from there, he moves on--he goes back and tries to find Rinoa in the present.
He desperately reaches out for Rinoa, but his fear of intimacy and loss still lingers and hinders him, which itself was a final test for Squall. He was still afraid of losing Rinoa in some way (like death, which is shown when Rinoa’s helmet broke in space, or to the fact that she’s now the world‘s enemy, which is what I believe the game was hinting at with the single frame image of Ultimecia and the black wings). And of course, as in the main plot, Rinoa’s persistence wins over as she finally finds Squall, who eventually remembers their promise.

I think Squall’s development is very interesting because it’s not very typical. It’s gradual, and most of it is internal. Relatively speaking, it doesn’t seem like much, but it is very significant. And more importantly, it’s a very realistic growth; it’s very easy to imagine someone in the real world changing in this exact same way, which, in my opinion, makes Squall the most realistic Final Fantasy character thus far.



I always like reading these things.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Jiro

"Convenient to the plot" will, you'll find, explain a lot of things in a lot of mediums incl. tv, movies, games, and books. People bring up the Eagles from LotR - why didn't they just fly to Morder and drop off the ring and evil would be vanquished? Well, that would be one hell of a short book (mind you, Tolkien would find a way to flesh it out, and Peter Jackson would still make a trilogy of films about it).

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Jiro, you should know better than that.

Tolkien addressed the issue. Quite a bit, in both the Hobbit and Lord of the Rings. The Eagles are their own race. They are intelligent, they even have their own societal structure and their own king. They don't like being treated as beasts of burden.

They are also considered the proudest of all living things, which means they would be much, much more vulnerable to the Ring's corruption than the Hobbits would.

They only helped out Gandalf in the books because they owe the wizards some favors. That was why they rescued the Dwarves in the Hobbit. They also owed Radagast quite a bit, and were relaying a message for him when they found Gandalf on top of Orthanc, and Gwahir (the king of the eagles) only took Gandalf a relatively short way before dropping him off and going "yeah, I'm tired and I got you out of trouble, peace".

Also, they hunt animals other races herd, so elves and men tend to shoot them.

That's my point. Everything is convenient to the plot. If it were a series of random events, you wouldn't have a story. The Eagles are as they are because they have to be, otherwise the plot would be bulltrout. The rationale is embedded in the world, and it works. I would go into it further but I hope we're at least on the same page now :aimsun: