Final Fantasy VII versus... Final Fantasy XIII?

In recent months with the promotion of Lightning Returns I noticed a pandemic growing. People arguing on social network sites between which is a superior game: FFVII or FFXIII. And I just have to ask...

Why?

It could be because I didn't play much of XIII, but apart from Lightning's inspiration being Cloud and both games main cast having a black guy I'm not seeing the parallels between them. How are they in any way similar? In what way would one compare and contrast to decide which is better? Did someone just decide to go, "XIII > VII" one day to cause unrest or is there something I'm missing?

Discuss.

I mean, I've barely played and XIII myself, so I really can't comment on how good or bad the game is. But most people I've talked to hate the game, so I'm really surprised to see that this is actually a thing.

It's because the developers of XIII have been pushing the game to the moon.

Fabula Nova Crystallis & a decade of Final Fa - Video Game News, Videos and File Downloads for PC and Console Games at Shacknews.com

"We've been with Lightning for 10 years. We would love for her to be one of those iconic characters that live on well after the game is done," Kitase said as we wrapped up our interview. "This is the first trilogy of the series. This is the first strong female protagonist we've ever had in Lightning. We would definitely love for it to become one of those legacy titles, like Final Fantasy VII..."

You'll remember that Kitase helped write FFVII. Tragically, it appears his brain has melted since then.

Point is, XIII and Toriyama's waifu are Square's best attempt at something new and fresh and AMAZING. So it's compared to FFVII, which is their most AMAZING title in terms of impact on gaming.

The key failing in this approach is that FFXIII kinda sucks and FFVII was a great game.

Ah, so that is what they were going for. I had a feeling they were trying to make XIII the next Final Fantasy VII in how much time and effort they sank into the franchise but I wasn't 100% sure that was the case or if I was reading too much into it, or if it was connected to the arguments I've been seeing. That makes sense.

I take issue with any developer or creator in anything setting out to make anything 'iconic'. You can't plan greatness. It's something that just happens from a well crafted story and fleshed out characters. I don't think anyone going into Final Fantasy VII expected that to become the staple of the entire franchise.

Wait a minute, "This is the first strong female protagonist we've ever had in Lightning." Did they forget about Terra?

We want more. Just shake it up.

'S what I say.

As to whether 7 or 13 is superior, I can't say either and have to accept that such arguments are a healthy and normal part of literary fandom.

Cuz they are stories after all.

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Originally Posted by ToriJ

Did they forget about Terra?

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Terra was never strong. She was a shy girl seeking love since she was raised by the Empire. She found her meaning of life when the story was over already. Lightning was strong in Episode Zero already and that is the novel when she swore at her mother's grave to be brave an become an adult, become Lightning and care for Serah and that before the first Final Fantasy XIII. Even Yuna and Ashe learn to be strong earlier than Terra. Not that it is her fault, her questions make her story.

About the topic: I love the Fabula Nova Crystallis but the Compilation of Final Fantasy VII is invincible.

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Originally Posted by Spooniest

We want more. Just shake it up.

'S what I say.

As to whether 7 or 13 is superior, I can't say either and have to accept that such arguments are a healthy and normal part of literary fandom.

Cuz they are stories after all.

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It's not just about the story when you rate games. At least not for me.

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Originally Posted by Sephiroth

Terra was never strong. She was a shy girl seeking love since she was raised by the Empire.

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WHat? Just what ?

Terra was epic strong, maybe not physically, but mentally. From birth she was basically ripped apart from her parents and was a tool for the Empire and became Kefka's slave which tore apart her memory. Her being lost and confused, is pretty real, however she stands up and doesn't let what Kefka did to her let her down, she finds love in protecting the orphans that have nothing left, and because of that love she becomes even stronger and helps the group defeat Kefka, and then she's the one the leads the group out of Kefka's final dungeon and doesn't fear death, despite the lost of magic.

She doesn't seek love, she whats to understand it. Huge difference.

On Topic/

Who cares ?

Final Fantasy XIII is either a love it or loathe it game and Final Fantasy VII is decent, but not the best and pairing these two up together as " rivals " per say, is strange.

You didn't read what I wrote and completely ignored the part of the story being already over which is when you are about to go to Kefka. Maybe you also didn't understand that I didn't talk about "over" like it has already ended and is only scenes and credits already but "over" like "you can already see the finish line". Just reading some things but not putting them into relation with all existent details is also the reason why so many Final Fantasys and other stories are misunderstood. That is a fact and just normal but can be avoided by getting all details and setting them into the right relation. It is not done here, not done by many people in Final Fantasy VII and actually it is such a common mistake that it is also done in actual important topics, conversations about humans and the world. Our world, of course. Saying something different is also no good. A story is whatever its owner wants it to be and Terra is like that. It does not make a bad character at all.

She is very weak, it is just like that. And I don't speak about her latent powers, you however do not think that anyway. She was used by the empire and could do nothing against it. And it is not only like she was so weak but that she never could do anything against being weak, she just was totally made like this. She was used since she was a baby and when they wanted they even robbed her her will. And in Final Fantasy having no will and not resisting magical or mind control items or powers or not being able to control your own powers is exactly the opposite of mentally strong. I even implied she gets stronger during the story but she is a very weak girl at the beginning. And just because she asks for the meaning of love does not mean she does not want to feel it. This feeling is very important to her since it was nothing she felt since she was a baby, the ship discussion with Leo was very relvevant as Leo actually wanted her to get to know it. The Mobliz story with her, the last survivors and the new born baby is totally something she did because she liked it, she didn't just stay there because they were like her specimen when it was about analyzing love, she wanted to have this in her life and when Square does not mention her and show her like that in her own story and shows those characteristics in Dissidia, so the characteristics of the girl very unsure about things but actually seeking her place in the world, since they are the most relevant about her then it just is like that. Terra is my favourite in Final Fantasy VI but I like her for what she is and your life story of finding your meaning of life and learning to be strong is not the same as being strong from the beginning. Terra needs her friends, Terra needs her journey, she needs Mobliz and she definitely needs to close the Kefka chapter which stands for no love at all.

EDIT: Replying is no use if you just want to defend Terra. I don't say that because I don't like her, I say it because you need to consider every official detail about the story, so I won't reply to this anymore.

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Originally Posted by Sephiroth

She is very weak, it is just like that.

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Lol, no she's not.

Just because she didn't wield a massive sword or Gunblade and go all revenge on the Empire & Kefka doesn't mean that she's a very weak person. There is also mental strength than just physical strength, you know.

She acted like any normal person would after being mentally-abused like that. Scared, lost, confused, and traumatized.

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Originally Posted by Sephiroth

She was used by the empire and could do nothing against it.

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Buuulllshiiiit.

She joined the Returners did she not ? And after she regained her memory she was keen to head into the land of the Espers and show Kefka who's boss.

Deal with it bro.

And yeah, she was just one person, this is the clown that destroyed the world and the Empire that ruled the world with a Iron Fist, not even Mr Suplex a Train could take them on without aid of the Returners. In fact, even all of the Returners with them all together as one struggled, they screw up during the Floating Island, and that was them as a team.

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Originally Posted by Sephiroth

And it is not only like she was so weak but that she never could do anything against being weak, she just was totally made like this.

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Again total BS

She started off lost and confused, but because of character development she became a stronger person. Most Final Fantasy leads start off somewhat lost and then become a better person. Cecil, Terra, Squall, Zidane, Tidus etc

It's called character development.

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Originally Posted by Sephiroth

She was used since she was a baby and when they wanted they even robbed her her will. And in Final Fantasy having no will and not resisting magical or mind control items or powers or not being able to control your own powers is exactly the opposite of mentally strong.

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Yes the Empire did rob her off her free will and no, just no. What a load of hogwash. You made up that " Final Fantasy law/ rule " yourself. And yes, she is mentally strong, due to overcoming Kefka's control on her and not letting herself become Kefka's toy.

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Originally Posted by Sephiroth

I even implied she gets stronger during the story but she is a very weak girl at the beginning.

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Keyword here : The beginning.

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Originally Posted by Sephiroth

And just because she asks for the meaning of love does not mean she does not want to feel it.

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No Terra wants to feel love, hence why she feels so much less confused when she does understand and feel, and know love.

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Originally Posted by Sephiroth

The Mobliz story with her, the last survivors and the new born baby is totally something she did because she liked it

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Well yeah... she wanted to stay and protect them because her emotions in her heart wanted her to stay and protect them from Kefka, and then she realizes that she wanted to protect them, because she loves them like she was their real Mother.

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Originally Posted by Sephiroth

she didn't just stay there because they were like her specimen when it was about analyzing love

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I didn't say that.

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Originally Posted by Sephiroth

she wanted to have this in her life and when Square does not mention her and show her like that in her own story and shows those characteristics in Dissidia

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Dissidia!Terra is completely off her original character so much that it shouldn't be compared.

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Originally Posted by Sephiroth

Terra is my favourite in Final Fantasy VI

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That's kind of depressing, because you don't even know that the character that you really like. You think that she's this weak, feeble chick when she's not.

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Originally Posted by Sephiroth

but I like her for what she is

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No you do not.

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Originally Posted by Sephiroth

Terra needs her friends, Terra needs her journey, she needs Mobliz

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EVERYBODY needs their friends, everybody needs their journey and who they love. You need friendships and love to survive, needing friends and love DOES NOT make you weak in any way, it just makes you human. We desire love and comfort because from birth, as humans we desire to be loved and held.

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Originally Posted by Sephiroth

EDIT: Replying is no use if you just want to defend Terra.

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2 late.

And defend Terra ? You don't want me to defend somebody that you say that you like ?
I don't think that you really like her at all and you're just pulling straws.

Because people like to argue about things.

Also you'll get FF vs FF all the time. They may have little in common but dammit we will compare them anyway because that's what we do.

FF7 is the fan darling and FF13 is the most recent main-numbered-instalment. People will compare and argue them until they die.

I just find it interesting because people defending XIII as a good game has enough of a challenge in general. Arguing that it's better than VII would require a skill of convincing that I'm not sure exists.

I've seen fans of VI and VII argue a lot over which is better, except in that debate you could make a strong case for either installment.

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Originally Posted by ToriJ

Arguing that it's better than VII would require a skill of convincing that I'm not sure exists.

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That is hard to say, I also will never think of it as better than Final Fantasy VII but much effort has went into the Fabula Nova Crystallis of Final Fantasy XIII and it definitely has some well-thought out aspects. In the end the story of an RPG should be the most interesting thing for someone and Final Fantasy XIII has much story with its world and characters, all three parts, of course as well as things live the novels, et cetera.

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Originally Posted by Elskidor

Lightning would only be stronger in the sense of physical strength and bad attitude.

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No, I already wrote when she became a strong person. That is a fact. And that is exactly what I am taliking about when I say people only read half information and can't set it into the right context then.

In my opinion you can't really compare those two, the difference between them is so... vast.

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Originally Posted by Sephiroth

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Originally Posted by ToriJ

Did they forget about Terra?

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Terra was never strong.

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Lightning would only be stronger in the sense of physical strength and bad attitude.

The fact that ff XIII is being compared to VII in just the smallest ways just puts me at a loss for words. No matter how sexy the protagonist of 13 is, the cast, story or just the game itself overall can never be compared to VII unless you're some geek who seems to think that graphics are what makes a good game which seems to be the case when it comes to most people these days -.-
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Originally Posted by ToriJ

Did they forget about Terra?

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The fact that you consider her strong doesn't mean that she is.

For example she has this power that during the world of ruin she hides even though she has the strength to do something about Kefka even by herself but she doesn't... why? Because she lacks the mental conviction to do something about it... I mean sure she builds her strength up over time but... what final fantasy character can this not be said about?

Lightning however was a powerful warrior right from the get go. The story portrays her as the remorseless soldier who will not slow down for anything or anyone. She sets out to save Serah and she stops at nothing to see he will put into motion.

At the start of VI Terra is enslaved, then she needs rescuing by Locke, then the Returners seek to use her power and she isn't all "OMG I hate the Empire for using me I wanna get revenge on them" she is more "Do I really want to be used by these people after just being used by the empire?" ask yourself seriously if that was Lightning in that situation she would not have needed to be convinced by Locke/Edgar to join their noble fight.

The simple fact is Terra can be easily led into this situation by Locke and easily convinced to help the Returners portrays the fact that at the start of the game she is not strong in her decisions, nothing to do with her powers or how she ends up being an adoptive mother to many children.

I do not consider her a strong female protagonist. That said I do think she was a great protagonist.

There's still Yuna. And Ashe too but Square flat out refuses to admit she was the protagonist of XII.

wut r u talkin about vaan was main charecter portagnoist

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Originally Posted by Carl the Llama

I do not consider her a strong female protagonist. That said I do think she was a great protagonist.

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Wait, what? She's a great character, but she's not a great female character? What? I... am honestly perplexed. Why are the two mutually exclusive?

I think he meant that he doesn't consider her strong, mentally or physically, for a female character, but still a great female character even with her weakness. Could be wrong, but that's how I took it.

Obviously we differ on what it means to have a "strong character". I take that to mean have good characterisation, which is what is generally implied by the phrasing of "strong character", not that they are actually physically/mentally strong in any way.

When people complain about not having enough "strong female characters" in media, they don't mean that there aren't enough women who work out or whatever. They just mean that there aren't enough female characters that are actually characters, and not one-note cardboard cutouts.

Which is why I didn't understand the notion that she wasn't a strong female character, but she was a good character. :p

I think you're misinterpreting it. I read it as "she's not a strong female character (particularly at the start of the game), but she is still a great female character".

Aye, I have been incessantly editing my post to explain my puzzlement. xD I was reading what I think of the term "strong female character" into the sentence. All is fine. :3

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Originally Posted by Carl the Llama

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Originally Posted by ToriJ

Did they forget about Terra?

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The fact that you consider her strong doesn't mean that she is.

For example she has this power that during the world of ruin she hides even though she has the strength to do something about Kefka even by herself but she doesn't... why? Because she lacks the mental conviction to do something about it... I mean sure she builds her strength up over time but... what final fantasy character can this not be said about?

Lightning however was a powerful warrior right from the get go. The story portrays her as the remorseless soldier who will not slow down for anything or anyone. She sets out to save Serah and she stops at nothing to see he will put into motion.

At the start of VI Terra is enslaved, then she needs rescuing by Locke, then the Returners seek to use her power and she isn't all "OMG I hate the Empire for using me I wanna get revenge on them" she is more "Do I really want to be used by these people after just being used by the empire?" ask yourself seriously if that was Lightning in that situation she would not have needed to be convinced by Locke/Edgar to join their noble fight.

The simple fact is Terra can be easily led into this situation by Locke and easily convinced to help the Returners portrays the fact that at the start of the game she is not strong in her decisions, nothing to do with her powers or how she ends up being an adoptive mother to many children.

I do not consider her a strong female protagonist. That said I do think she was a great protagonist.

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Just because Terra doesn't start out strong doesn't make her weak either. If anything you're denied character progression with Lightning because she's already the badass warrior, with Terra you actually see some progression and so what if she couldn't work up the nerve to face Kefka right away? You've never been scared before even though there was no reason to be? I'm going to assume you were because fear is an instinct that's impossible to shed. It's natural to be scared. The fact she found the courage near the end speaks volumes to me. You say yourself she builds her strength over time so already you contradict the claim she's not a strong protagonist.

Oh, but I forget. It only counts if you're physically strong all the time and beat people up. A character isn't allowed to show weakness, to be afraid, to need support from people, to be... human. Let's just have cardboard cutouts of former characters turned female who beats up everyone, that's a much better story.

Here's a perfect blog on the subject: http://dkoeker.wordpress.com/2013/07...le-characters/

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Originally Posted by ToriJ

Just because Terra doesn't start out strong doesn't make her weak either

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First off I'll thank you for not putting words into my mouth, I never said she was weak.

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Originally Posted by Tori

If anything you're denied character progression with Lightning because she's already the badass warrior, with Terra you actually see some progression

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As to Lightning's progression, she started off cold hard and doesn't care for anything other then her goal, throughout the game you see soften her will as she eventually begins to realise that things are better with a team of people who you can rely upon.

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Originally Posted by Tori

so what if she couldn't work up the nerve to face Kefka right away?

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So what? You are answering me with so what... let me tell you about that what: People around her were suffering, being dominated by Kefka, being killed by Kefka allowing Kefka to impose his will on the world. Terra has the ability (note I don't just point my finger at Terra alone, but the entire crew who were languishing about after Kefka's victory) to do something about it but... doesn't and you can even complete the game without the rest of the languishing heroes... think about it, they set out to do something about the empire they got to the finishing line... then gave up. Tell me what was so different about Kefka from the time he played about with the statues to the time the heroes got off their asses and decided to stop the tyranny? The answer should be obvious: smurf all. Yes, I went there. I don't know about you but I always found this smurfing huge gaping hole to be one of the main reasons I don't even consider the game to be a great Final Fantasy game, let alone:

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Originally Posted by Eyes on Final Fantasy Forums

the sixth installment of the Final Fantasy series which ranks up there with the greatest video games of all time.

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They can save the world right before the "World of Ruin" but instead they let the world go to trout, they decide that they don't need to stay together, this crack team of heroes, they decide once the airship has landed upon the following:

Terra: So... what do we do now? *watches vacantly while people around her disappear in some holy beam of light*
Locke: I don't know about you guys but I need to go treasure hunting! BYEEEEE!
Sabin: I need to go to a random village and wait for it to catch fire! YAY Vacation! YAY Fire!
Terra: That sounds awesome, after careful consideration, I am going to go to a random village and wait for all the parents in the village to disappear so I can become the unofficial mummy to everyone :D
Edgar: I think I'm going back to my castle for a while, I need a long rest after all that attempted world saving.

*few months later*

Celes: Hey guys, fancy going to beat up kefka?
Terra: I dunno, I got all these kids to look after
Sabin: Oh! Beating up Kefka! What an amazing idea! Count me in!!!
Locke: Oooo... I wonder what treasure he has?!?
Terra: Oh sure... I guess I should do something about him...

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Originally Posted by Tori

You've never been scared before even though there was no reason to be? I'm going to assume you were because fear is an instinct that's impossible to shed. It's natural to be scared. The fact she found the courage near the end speaks volumes to me. You say yourself she builds her strength over time so already you contradict the claim she's not a strong protagonist.

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Yes I do say she is not strong, I mean, had it been Lightning in Terra's position she would not have waited to go and save the world, she would have gone off alone and damned her fear and the consequences and saved the world... THAT is a strong character, a strong protagonist who would have saved the world no matter what the cost.

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Originally Posted by Tori

Oh, but I forget. It only counts if you're physically strong all the time and beat people up. A character isn't allowed to show weakness, to be afraid, to need support from people, to be... human.

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When I say strong, I don't mean "physically strong all the time and beats people up":roll2 I mean strength of will, the determination to set something to right, ya know; like Lightning does right from saving her sister to fighting an endless battle against a foe who can never die?!?

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Originally Posted by Tori

Let's just have cardboard cutouts of former characters turned female who beats up everyone, that's a much better story.

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Now your just being ridiculous, when did I ever say anything like that, again I will thank you for not trying to make me seem like this crazy fanboi you seem to be trying to make me out to be.

Allow me to state some fact about my opinion about the Final Fantasy XIII series: I don't think its a great series, sure I like Lightning, but to be some crazy defender of her the way you are about Terra... that's just totally wrong. I don't think XIII was that great, but then I don't think VI was the epic game you seem to believe it is.

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Originally Posted by ToriJ

A character isn't allowed to show weakness, to be afraid, to need support from people, to be... human.

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All that happens in Final Fantasy XIII. All 3 parts and the novel. That is why she can be shown that strong. She has become so strong and was strong already when the first part began, had some important moments for her character and became even stronger.

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Originally Posted by Carl the Llama

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Originally Posted by ToriJ

Just because Terra doesn't start out strong doesn't make her weak either

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First off I'll thank you for not putting words into my mouth, I never said she was weak.

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The impression I got from your opening statement was that she wasn't strong because she didn't start out as such. That was the message behind my statement.

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Originally Posted by Carl the Llama

As to Lightning's progression, she started off cold hard and doesn't care for anything other then her goal, throughout the game you see soften her will as she eventually begins to realise that things are better with a team of people who you can rely upon.

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Which is sadly the only real direction you could go from that starting point. Nothing wrong with it but some of that off-screen development would have been nice if done right.

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Originally Posted by Carl the Llama

So what? You are answering me with so what... let me tell you about that what: People around her were suffering, being dominated by Kefka, being killed by Kefka allowing Kefka to impose his will on the world. Terra has the ability (note I don't just point my finger at Terra alone, but the entire crew who were languishing about after Kefka's victory) to do something about it but... doesn't and you can even complete the game without the rest of the languishing heroes... think about it, they set out to do something about the empire they got to the finishing line... then gave up. Tell me what was so different about Kefka from the time he played about with the statues to the time the heroes got off their asses and decided to stop the tyranny? The answer should be obvious: smurf all. Yes, I went there. I don't know about you but I always found this smurfing huge gaping hole to be one of the main reasons

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I'm just saying I can understand the fear in that situation and that fear isn't always rational nor is it in itself a bad device to use with a character even if they're meant to be the hero. Admittedly it sounds like they could have executed that a hell of a lot better.

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Originally Posted by Carl the Llama

Yes I do say she is not strong, I mean, had it been Lightning in Terra's position she would not have waited to go and save the world, she would have gone off alone and damned her fear and the consequences and saved the world... THAT is a strong character, a strong protagonist who would have saved the world no matter what the cost.

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Isn't that ultimately what Terra did in the end?

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Originally Posted by Carl the Llama

When I say strong, I don't mean "physically strong all the time and beats people up":roll2 I mean strength of will, the determination to set something to right, ya know; like Lightning does right from saving her sister to fighting an endless battle against a foe who can never die?!?

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I speak more in general with that and should have been more clear. I say it because everything I know about Lightning seems to be the casebook example of good intentions gone sour. Is she ever depicted overcoming any real fear when doing any of those things?

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Originally Posted by Carl the Llama

Now your just being ridiculous, when did I ever say anything like that, again I will thank you for not trying to make me seem like this crazy fanboi you seem to be trying to make me out to be.

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That was spoken out of frustration and shouldn't have been said. I apologize.

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Originally Posted by Carl the Llama

Allow me to state some fact about my opinion about the Final Fantasy XIII series: I don't think its a great series, sure I like Lightning, but to be some crazy defender of her the way you are about Terra... that's just totally wrong. I don't think XIII was that great, but then I don't think VI was the epic game you seem to believe it is.

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I'm defending the notion that strength comes in more forms than what seems to be so popularly perceived in media and that the showing of reluctance and fear and other related weaknesses can still be existent in a strong protagonist. In hindsight I should have used Yuna to prove my point. Or drank some coffee before coming on.

I submit this as a peace offering:

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Originally Posted by Sephiroth

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Originally Posted by ToriJ

A character isn't allowed to show weakness, to be afraid, to need support from people, to be... human.

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All that happens in Final Fantasy XIII. All 3 parts and the novel. That is why she can be shown that strong. She has become so strong and was strong already when the first part began, had some important moments for her character and became even stronger.

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Does it? I retract my statement then.

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Originally Posted by ToriJ

Does it? I retract my statement then.

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You should read Episode Zero where she makes the promise to her mother and decides to become "Lightning". And Lightning Returns totally shows how much her character has developed. We see an angry Lightning, a smiling Lightning, a crying Lightning ... we see a really impressive character that deserves to be seen as what she is and not only her basics of Final Fantasy XIII. And as said, there she was already strong, but only because she already learned it before.

Well then, I'm gonna have to look in to that since it genuinely sounds like they tried to improve upon the first installment.

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Originally Posted by ToriJ

Well then, I'm gonna have to look in to that since it genuinely sounds like they tried to improve upon the first installment.

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The problem is, it always existed and was planned. People just didn't know. Episode Zero was already written when Final Fantasy XIII came out. And the triology itself is about Lightning's character development.

That's why she's on XIII-2's cover and not her sister who is the actual protagonist of the game.

Lightning is just a sponge for hype and attention and takes it away from every other character, no matter who they are.