Your thoughts on emulators

From what I understand emulators themselves are legal, but the games? Not so much.

I can understand not downloading new games, but what about old games?

So what if I want to play a Sailor Moon game on the Super Nintendo? The only people currently making money off of those titles are the collectors who sell them on ebay. There's no harm in emulating games that are no longer sold.

Do you play emulators? To what extent? Should you be allowed to play copyrighted games if they're no longer sold by the company?

Nice try, narc.

I'm not a lawyer but I think it's mainly games that are currently in stores that are illegal. Older games that are off the market and the company is no longer making money off of is a different story and a game that was never released in America isn't costing anyone money since there were no games over here to purchase in the first place.

I think from a moral perspective, playing any game that is no longer sold is fine. I don't do it very often but I've done it for a few NES and SNES games, mostly old Final Fantasy titles before they were re-released on formats that I have access to.

I'm (mostly) against pirating new games. I don't do it. I want game companies to continue to exist and make more games. I want indie developers to be able to afford food. But NES era? SNES era? PSX era, even? I say pirate at will. Pretty sure it is actually illegal (in the US), but whatever. The law in this case is stupid. I don't believe people should be able to make a thing and then sit on the copyright for the rest of their lives. Thankfully in this case the law seems to be mostly unenforceable.

One big reason emulators are good is to preserve our culture. Once all the NESes break, do we want to lose the ability to experience those games forever? I want them to be preserved.

"No one makes money on old games" is not true. NES/SNES games are for sale in the Wii store. PSX games are for sale on PSP I think. Ones that aren't for sale now could be added later. Maybe the ones that are never re-released for new systems aren't released because they're pirated so much and the company knows it's not worth it. When I emulate an NES or SNES game, I know I'm depriving someone of a sale or a potential sale.

However I don't care. $5 for one game tied to a single Wii bought by fumbling through their terrible store can't compete with free + convenient + playable on any PC + save states + cheat engine + fast-forward + network play etc. If I paid for a game 15 years ago, why do I need to re-buy it for every new system that's released? If Nintendo put every NES game ever made into a bundle and sold it cross-platform DRM-free for $20, I'd probably buy it.

I have no moral qualm with emulating games, though I've only done it with PSX games and the emulator I went (ePSX) with was terrible and put me off from ever wanting to go through such a method again because of how glitchy and awful it was. Since then, I prefer to play games on the console in which they were designed for because emulators are just too much of a hassle for me to deal with.

I just prefer having a physical copy of older games and playing them on the original console anyways. This is the case for me whether its using an emulator on a computer or legally purchasing an emulation of a game through something like Wii. To me, it's not the same to play Metroid with a Wii Mote (or even classic controller) rather than have the experience of doing special tricks to get my NES to read the game and play it with the NES controller. This is of course different when playing PS1 games on the PS3 considering the controller and experience is practically the same.

That being said, I have no qualms with emulating a game that was never released in the US with a fan translation. I don't have qualms with emulating extremely rare games that the $200 to buy will all go to the reseller and not to a developer. New games that are released in the US should never be emulated, though. I feel like if you are going to play their game, they deserve the money for the work they put into it.

Morally, once of a certain age. Legally, copyrighted material.

I play my old PS1 and PS2 games on emulators using the actual discs I own, because the consoles themselves have long gone.

I support any action that leads to games being more easily played, regardless of who takes the action. If the developers and publishers make it prohibitively difficult or expensive to play their games, or if a game is too difficult to obtain or play through legitimate means, then I have no problem with the concept of pirating it.

It was the main way I played the Super Nintendo games canon as I never owned the system. I don't do it anymore because I'm more into current games, plus most of the older titles I want to play have been re-released on newer platforms and I'd rather play the official copy.

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Originally Posted by ToriJ

I'm not a lawyer but I think it's mainly games that are currently in stores that are illegal. Older games that are off the market and the company is no longer making money off of is a different story and a game that was never released in America isn't costing anyone money since there were no games over here to purchase in the first place.

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No, it is still entirely against the law (in most countries). The question is if the copyright holder cares enough about it anymore to want to first find out who's pirating it, and then also pressing charges.

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Originally Posted by Mirage

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Originally Posted by ToriJ

I'm not a lawyer but I think it's mainly games that are currently in stores that are illegal. Older games that are off the market and the company is no longer making money off of is a different story and a game that was never released in America isn't costing anyone money since there were no games over here to purchase in the first place.

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No, it is still entirely against the law (in most countries). The question is if the copyright holder cares enough about it anymore to want to first find out who's pirating it, and then also pressing charges.

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Pretty much this. Unless the copyright has expired and the game is in the public domain (which I'm not sure is even possible yet unless some companies went under and didn't sell all of their assets during bankruptcy proceedings somehow for some reason) it is illegal to download the games.

That said, I whole heartedly support the process of creating emulators, and making backup copies of games. I also support making them available for older consoles when there's no chance of finding a new copy. Anyone who wants to sue over money they're in no position to collect to begin with can screw off. I don't agree morally with pirating games currently available, but I also recognize that it happens, it's not going away, and fighting it is futile, so there's not really much to do about it.

But the reason I support emulation so strongly is that it is probably the only way we're going to be able to preserve our video game history. The number of working older consoles in the world is steadily dwindling, cartridges can die, CD and DVD games are even more fragile. Eventually there won't be any NES's or SNES's or Saturns or Playstations left to play the games and no functioning copies left to play. And the industry itself has spent decades doing absolutely nothing to preserve this stuff adequately. Most of the time, if they have backups at all, they're either on media so old they don't even have the means to intereface with it anymore (this was an issue with the HD re-release of Killzone), or they don't have a backup of the finished source code (I think it was a problem with Killzone again, and it definitely was with the HD releases of Silent Hill 2 and 3. There's a reason those two are basically broken). And even when they do have complete source code, it's often difficult to port because they did a terrible job of documenting things (Killzone did this again. They had entities in the game with names that didn't match what they were at all and they had to waste time trying to remember/figure out what the hell they were and why they named them that).

If hobbyists and the like weren't spending the time preserving this stuff, whether that's even their goal or not, we'd be in a position to lose a lot of great games in the next decade or two.

Vivi and Dr Unne's points about gaming history are particularly important given that not only are the major companies neglecting to preserve their history, they are - for the most part - actively working to remove it.

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Originally Posted by Randy "Mulch" Blackburn

not only are the major companies neglecting to preserve their history, they are - for the most part - actively working to remove it.

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Yeah, that last part is a bit of an issue too.

I have emulated many games in the past. How, exactly, was I supposed to play Dragon Quest 5, or Seiken Densetsu 3, or whatever you wish to name? They wouldn't sell them in my country or in my language, and I had no reason to believe they ever would (they did eventually with Dragon Quest, but not in the original form, which does matter).

Of course it is illegal, and I never "pirate" games I could buy anymore. When I was a child I did, but I feel no regrets about that, either. I wouldn't have bought them - I didn't have the money, and it's as simple as that. There was 0 chance that I would have purchased them. As soon as I became financially independent and was able to buy games, I stopped pirating them.

I like emulators for older systems like NES and SNES and GBA. I have not thought a lot of newer emulators, but I bet I would use those too if ever I thought of a game I wanted to play.

I like to use PS2 emulators to save that poor old laser diode in my fat ps2. Also, people without modified consoles can use it to play game modification hacks and translation hacks even if they own the games.

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Originally Posted by Mirage

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Originally Posted by ToriJ

I'm not a lawyer but I think it's mainly games that are currently in stores that are illegal. Older games that are off the market and the company is no longer making money off of is a different story and a game that was never released in America isn't costing anyone money since there were no games over here to purchase in the first place.

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No, it is still entirely against the law (in most countries). The question is if the copyright holder cares enough about it anymore to want to first find out who's pirating it, and then also pressing charges.

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Ah well, I take the South Park stance on piracy anyway.

Another point in favor of emulation is format shifting. I own a bunch of PSP games and my PSP is dying. There's a good PSP emulator (PPSSPP) that I can use to play those games full-screen on my computer monitor using an xbox controller with the sound coming out of my nice speakers. Why shouldn't I be allowed to do this?

The technology exists to let us do all kinds of insanely cool things. Region-locking, DRM, anti-jailbreaking features, proprietary disk formats and AV cables, handheld devices lacking video-out ports, this crap is all bad news. Emulators are one counter to the tight control that some people try to exert over technology.

>>> The emulators I play..:luca:
MAME, Nes, Snes, Sega Master System, Sega Genesis, Gameboy, Gameboy advance, PSX.

The emulators I Dont play.
Nintendo DS, N64, Gamecube, Wii, PSP, PS2, Dreamcast, Sega Saturn.

not sure my opinion really counts because i only started emulating since i joined here. someone in chat told me about it but i only downloaded the games that i own xD

i know that sounds boring but... i just feel guilty playing a game that the person did not get paid for ;o maybe it is just me xD

i think if you own the game or the game is loooong gone or not sold in your country you can do it. like everyone else said. but i think you should only do it if you own the game already but that is just me.

i am not going to go yelling at people who dont do that. i just personally feel bad doing it. i downloaded a NES game and deleted to because it just felt wrong to be playing it when i never actually brought it xD

I only emulate games that I no longer own the console for (C64/NES/SNES) or alternatively Pokemon games that I already own because that way I can actually have more than one save file. I do not really feel guilty about it, no. 95% of the stuff I emulate is stuff I actually own or owned at one point, anyway.

I would definitely prefer if more of this stuff was readily and easily "legally" available because then I would pay for it. I don't emulate Sega Genesis games, for example, because Sega re-releases most of their classics on basically every platform available so I have many of them on Steam or whatnot. On the other hand, Nintendo loves to make it difficult unless you have a Wii or something which I don't have, thus I mostly emulate Nintendo games. And obviously you aren't going to find much Commodore 64 stuff around, so those games get emulated too.

I use emulators mainly for NES, SNES, GBA and DS. I use the first 3 because where am I going to find a new game for those today, where the money goes to the company? I use the DS emulator mainly as a way to test out games to see if they're worth buying, hell most of the DS games I own I bought after trying them on an emulator. I also use it to play games that are hard to find, case in point Monster Rancher DS, I have never seen a copy (new or used) in any store since it's release.

I pirate occasionally because I'm poor as smurf and want to try things out. Most of my pirating has been of old systems and games, the ones I can't really get a hold of any more, and then there was a big chunk of GBA stuff because some smurfer stole my GBA and games.

I try to avoid it if possible. But if it's a game that was never released in America like Mother 3 for example then it's my only feasible option.

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Originally Posted by Tasura

I use emulators mainly for NES, SNES, GBA and DS. I use the first 3 because where am I going to find a new game for those today, where the money goes to the company? I use the DS emulator mainly as a way to test out games to see if they're worth buying, hell most of the DS games I own I bought after trying them on an emulator. I also use it to play games that are hard to find, case in point Monster Rancher DS, I have never seen a copy (new or used) in any store since it's release.

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Tons of them on ebay.

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Originally Posted by Mirage

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Originally Posted by Tasura

I use emulators mainly for NES, SNES, GBA and DS. I use the first 3 because where am I going to find a new game for those today, where the money goes to the company? I use the DS emulator mainly as a way to test out games to see if they're worth buying, hell most of the DS games I own I bought after trying them on an emulator. I also use it to play games that are hard to find, case in point Monster Rancher DS, I have never seen a copy (new or used) in any store since it's release.

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Tons of them on ebay.

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Most are without cases, or more than the game would be new, or with shipping as much as the game itself.

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Originally Posted by Shorty

I have no moral qualm with emulating games, though I've only done it with PSX games and the emulator I went (ePSX) with was terrible and put me off from ever wanting to go through such a method again because of how glitchy and awful it was. Since then, I prefer to play games on the console in which they were designed for because emulators are just too much of a hassle for me to deal with.

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ePSXe is actually pretty great; you just have to know how to set it up. But then there are other emulators which require basically no set up, especially for older systems like NES and SNES, or some which require minimal set up, like emulators designed for Sega CD and PC Engine.

My stance on emulation is pretty much the same as everyone else's here. Pirating games which are currently being sold = bad, whereas pirating games which one has no other feasible method of obtaining = good, even if both = illegal.

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Originally Posted by Spuuky

I have emulated many games in the past. How, exactly, was I supposed to play Dragon Quest 5, or Seiken Densetsu 3, or whatever you wish to name? They wouldn't sell them in my country or in my language, and I had no reason to believe they ever would (they did eventually with Dragon Quest, but not in the original form, which does matter).

Of course it is illegal, and I never "pirate" games I could buy anymore. When I was a child I did, but I feel no regrets about that, either. I wouldn't have bought them - I didn't have the money, and it's as simple as that. There was 0 chance that I would have purchased them. As soon as I became financially independent and was able to buy games, I stopped pirating them.

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This.

So many games I've played on an emulator. Games I never would have tried or seen for sale.

Samurai Pizza Cats in particular.

I skirt a fine line with emulators, I only download games I cannot play normally (I.E. Mother 3) or games I/friends of mine own/used to own (NHL 95, chrono trigger). My cousin uses emulators to preview sega games and decided whether or not to buy them from our local pawn shop. I disagree with them and their games being illegal, as the only emulators I mainly use are ones that don't make money for their respective companies anymore, but I'm not going to whip up a brouhaha over the legality of distributing digital copies of games that've been around since Tutankhamen invented the first pong table.

many of the games I emulate are games I purchased in the past and no longer have. Other than that they are games for systems that would just cost too much to get or too much hassle to bother looking for.

and I use a moded 1st gen xbox to play everything from PSone/N64 and before. I do still buy PSone games if I find black labels at decent prices.

Here's a showcase of PCSX2 and how great it can make tons of PS2 games look :p

PCSX2 Videos (remember to select the highest video quality!)

The site also has some compatibility stats, and there are currently nearly 2000 games that are fully playable. Fully playable means being able to play through all the content without encountering glitches that makes it impossible to continue. Even if a game has some obvious glitches, it still falls under this category if it doesn't stop you from finishing it. Most of the time, such glitches will only be minor graphical glitches, though. For example, certain shadows or textures may flicker or look bad in some areas.

A lot of games have close to no glitches. Persona 4 is nearly flawlessly emulated, and I can count the number of areas with a tiny bit of texture flickering on one hand. FF10, 10-2 and 12 are also very well emulated. The emulator also supports the multiple degrees of pressure sensitivity of Dualshock 3 face buttons if you set it up right.

The emulator does require a sort of beefy computer to run certain games, though. Some games are a lot easier to emulate than others. FF10 10-2 and 12 are very easy to emulate (full speed at a 2.7GHz core 2 CPU), while tekken 5 and SC3 requires a reasonably powerful CPU, such as an i5 at 3.5 GHz.