The Pioneer Woman & Plagiarizing Recipes

Okay.. This is something that's kinda been on my mind for the last few days... 'Cuz I have nothing better to do, obvs.

Ree Drummond, aka "The Pioneer Woman" is a self-proclaimed accidental country girl, a millionaire rancher's wife, and seemingly overnight celebrity blogger who now has her own show on Food Network, a few cookbooks, and a crappy book detailing her journey to becoming Mrs. Drummond and living on a ranch (I read it. SO SUE ME. It was in the Davidson County eLibrary ready for me to borrow and read in Overdrive, I couldn't resist).

The Pioneer Woman | Ree Drummond

I first saw Ree on ABC's "The Chew" (which I looove.. With Mario Batali, Daphne Oz, Carla Hall, Michael Symon, and Clinton Kelly) and she made a Turkey Tetrazzini.

Actually, I'm pretty sure I came across her website before I saw her on The Chew. Whatever.

And so I kinda started perusing through her website for recipe ideas and whatnot and keeping up with it..

But then I came across not 1, not 2, but -3- websites that are specifically Anti-Pioneer Woman and one of the bigger issues on these sites is that Ree Drummond has actually plagiarized many of her recipes but kind of skirted full-on plagiarism by changing up some of the measurements, ingredients, and instructions.

Now, from what I've read, a person can copyright the actual steps of a recipe, but -not- the list of ingredients..

And I believe there was an issue with Jessica Seinfeld (yes, Jerry's wife) and her plagiarizing the idea of sneaking fruits and veggies into desserts and things so that kids will eat more healthy things and making a cookbook out of it (there was another woman who had nearly the exact same book published before Jessica's), but I don't remember what came of that.

But anywho, the main website that touts Mrs. Drummond's plagiarizing ways is:

The Marlboro Woman | Keepin' The Pioneer Woman Real!

and yes, they provide images of the original recipes and the ones Ree has either put in a cookbook or posted on her website, almost none of them giving credit to the original creator(s) anywhere. Apparently, she's even taken recipes straight off of boxes and/or cans and called them her own.

And while it -is- really crappy of her to do, and I'm pretty well inclined to believe this to be true, I'm also on the fence about it.

It's hard for me to explain this accurately, but let's say for example my mom's cheeseball and her sugar-free fudge. I mean of course, I would give my mom credit because she came up with those on her own, but there could be a thousand other people who've come up with the exact same recipe on their own.

Or the way I make and season my Mexican Red Rice.. Sure the basic technique is the same as pretty much all Mexicans make it, but I came up with the seasonings I use on my own. It just may be that someone else uses the same ones.. Does that mean I plagiarized that recipe?

As a side note, the more I learn about Ree Drummond and her husband, the more I dislike her in general.

But this issue is one that's intrigued me lately. Especially since I have a (half-assed) food blog of my own...

Thoughts?

I don't like the way she makes sausage gravy. :zombert: I have no comment on the plagiarism though.

I have her first cookbook (as well as the Jessica Seinfield one you mentioned, actually) and just freaking love it. It's all terrible for you, but it tastes sooo goood.

I don't get the controversy. There's only so many ways to make a goddamn enchilada. And that site giving her trout for having a cousin that's a felon? That's just petty bulltrout right there. Making fun of her neck muscles? That site is pathetic.

Side note: She published my BFF's chocolate lava cake recipe long ago. Gave her full credit and referred to her by name several times.

Well it's the fact that if she -is- knowingly getting a recipe from the back of a box, another cookbook, or someone else, she's not giving credit where credit is due- regardless of any minute changes she made to the recipe. It isn't a completely original idea that she came up with herself. And imo, that's just kind of crappy. But, only she knows whether she's really doing this or not.

And like I said, there's a couple of other things that've made me not like the Drummonds nearly as much as I did before.. There's a blog entry somewhere on her website where she's photographing her youngest son about to be thrown off of a horse because he doesn't know the proper way to guide/lead it, which eventually sends the horse into a full on panic even though it did its best to do what was right instead of what her son was inadvertently telling it to do. Her husband, the other ranch hands, and his siblings are way up ahead, and he's riding the out-of-control horse alongside a large herd of cattle (where he could've easily gotten trampled had he fallen off) without a helmet or other protective gear. And instead of trying to call her husband or one of the ranch hands or jumping into a truck to try to do something about it, she just stands there snapping pics of the whole thing. But that's beside the point of the post and has nothing to do with her cooking. Just throwing that out there.

I actually do have one of her cookbooks downloaded as well, but I have yet to try anything out of it. I typically use recipes as a guideline, taking out things if I don't like it and seasoning everything to taste.. Unless it's baking breads or desserts, then I follow it to the letter.

I don't really honestly anything about her, but the name "The Pioneer Woman" annoys me and strikes me as an annoying marketing gimmick (incidentally, Bethenny Frankel annoys me for the exact same reason - "Skinny Girl" is two words, for smurf's sake). If she plagiarised recipes (and yes, what she is accused of doing is plagiarism) then that's incredibly crappy.

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Originally Posted by The Man

I don't really honestly anything about her, but the name "The Pioneer Woman" annoys me and strikes me as an annoying marketing gimmick (incidentally, Bethenny Frankel annoys me for the exact same reason - "Skinny Girl" is two words, for smurf's sake). If she plagiarised recipes (and yes, what she is accused of doing is plagiarism) then that's incredibly crappy.

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Eh, I don't really think it's a marketing gimmick. She started out as a blogger, and her tales of ranch life and her family dynamics are probably a bigger draw than her cooking. Not that there's anything wrong with her cooking, but there's a reason her blog, books, and television show all heavily feature her family. It's not exactly a "gimmick" when it is one of the major features of her work.

That said, if there was a legitimate plagiarism complaint, I'm pretty sure it would have gotten a lot more attention. She grew from a small name, but now has multiple New York Times Bestsellers and her own show. There is a lot of money to be made in a lawsuit if there was any evidence whatsoever. What's more, Food Network worked with her several times before signing her to her own show, and she is a relative newcomer. Given that they had no qualms about getting rid of Paula Deen (one of its largest name celebrities, if not the largest) over a moral/publicity issue, I don't think they keep her on if they had any evidence supporting these claims.

Yeah, I mean, like I said, it's not really something I'm all up in arms about - simply because people come up with similar, if not the exact same. recipes -all- the time. Like one of the postings in The Marlboro Woman is about a sheet cake that they found a "disturbingly similar" recipe for in an old Junior League cookbook and a couple of others.. People make sheet cakes -all- the friggin' time. It's a recipe that's always getting passed around and recycled. Yanno?

And besides that, the way the copyright laws are when it comes to recipes, it'd be pretty hard to pin someone for plagiarism because you can't copyright the ingredients- just the recipe itself. So I guess only if someone copied word-for-word the copyrighted instructions to something would the original author be able to file a lawsuit and have a strong chance of winning.

And another thing I read, Ree Drummond only has "The Pioneer Woman" name copyrighted for a small handful of specific things which leaves a broad spectrum for someone to come in and copyright that name for things she -should've- gotten copyrighted to begin with.. I would think that if that were to happen, she'd blow a gasket.. lol The evil, bitchy side of me wants to see this very much.

The Pioneer Woman wasn't an overnight celebrity blogger. I started following her since 2007 or so and even by that time her blog had a pretty good following. I saw her build up her blogging empire year by year. She is a complete PRO at it. If you ever want to see a case study on how to be a great blogger, you don't need to look any further than the Pioneer Woman. So yeah, she worked diligently for years on her blog before she ended up getting the whole Food Network/Cook book deals.

She has some great recipes on her site and her chicken piccata recipe still trumps most chicken piccata I've ever eaten at restaurants. And her pecan pie recipe is excellent too.

BUT, she also has some crappy recipes and some dubious methods. I know there was a big kerfuffle a few years ago because she was telling people to do incredibly unhealthy things like pouring marinading juice over a cooked piece of meat (big no no!). I also know that people got all righteously indignant about the fact that she's part of a super super rich ranching family, but tries to pass herself off as a regular country girl. But who cares? That's just petty jealousy in my opinion.

I can't stand her speaking voice and I think her Food Network show is terrible. She's one of those people who just works better in text. I also don't visit her site at all anymore because my cooking has progressed a lot further in the past few years. Her food tends to be focused a lot on carbs and butter. Kinda Paula Dean-esque. But she helped me out a ton when I first started cooking and really needed the help of those step by step photos.

I don't think she's the greatest. She can come off as calculating and disingenuous but I admire her as a business woman and as a successful blogger. And she has some great recipes. As for copying recipes, unless it's something crazy unique, it's really hard to claim that a recipe belongs to one person or another. If it's obvious it was copied, then yeah, that sucks. But mostly I think it's a matter of haters hating.

Hence the reason I said "seemingly".

I think I came across her for the first time in 2010 or 2011.. I can't remember what I was googling a recipe for, but I found her and did admire how she does the step-by-step photos even though I didn't need them.. Now, they've gotten tedious for me..

Yes, she is successful and did it all herself (with the financial support of her husband XD sorry. I had to), but I think she can be very passive-aggressively mean spirited. And as I've noticed, when she -has- been caught/called out for putting something in her blog that isn't right, she won't own up to it. She'll simply edit whichever post she's been getting crap about and pretend like it never happened. Like how she was always referring to her brother as "My Retarded Brother" (yes, she would say something like "You remember my retarded brother Mike?..." followed by a story about him.. The posts are still up, to my knowledge, but "retarded" was removed from it). I mean, I get wanting to handle things quietly without causing a ruckus, but the least she could've done was apologize for being Un-PC. Even in her lil Romance Novel thing, the way she wrote about her brother often seemed like he was a nuisance in her life that she just wanted to go away for good.

As far as her having a metric chuck ton of money, I really don't care about that either way.. Good for her.

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Originally Posted by noxious.sunshine

I mean, I get wanting to handle things quietly without causing a ruckus, but the least she could've done was apologize for being Un-PC.

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I don't think anyone should ever have to apologize for being un-PC.

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Idiot, imbecile, and moron were once neutral terms for a developmentally delayed adult with the mental age comparable to a toddler, preschooler, and primary school child, respectively. In time, negative connotations tend to crowd out neutral ones, so the phrase mentally retarded was pressed into service to replace them. This too was eventually considered pejorative and became commonly used as an insult. Today, terms such as mentally challenged, with an intellectual disability, learning difficulties and special needs are used to replace the term retarded.

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Look up the term "euphemism treadmill".

But as someone who's worked to get to where they are and portray this Down-Home Wholesome Country Girl image, using a term like that to refer to a family member doesn't look good. When you're trying to uphold that kind of persona, then yes, you should apologize for using a word where you shouldn't. Nevermind the fact that she -knew- she did wrong by referring to him as "My retarded brother" in her blog.. She changed the entries without a word about it... Or she had the people working on her site do it for her.. Or her publicist(s) pointed out that it wasn't a good idea and it was removed. Whatever the scenario, someone on her team knew it was wrong, and the word was removed.

Unfortunately, the word "retarded" does come with a negative connotation nowadays, just like you quoted. Her brother actually -is- mentally retarded. She wasn't referring to him as "My retarded brother, Mike" in a joking way like you think- he really does have those issues. Personally, if I were in her shoes and it were -my- brother, he would've simply been "My brother" from the get go. Since her blog encompasses all aspects of her life, sure, like her, I would probably have a few stories to tell about him, but not in a way that seems condescending or mean spirited. That's the way she comes off to me practically every time she mentions him. I would acknowledge the fact that my brother is handicapped mentally, but I wouldn't make a spectacle of it every time I felt the need to write about him.

She's chosen to market herself in this light, which means she does kinda have an obligation to stick with it.

There's something I read that said she'd even petitioned Google to have caches of the original posts removed, but I'm trying to see if I can find more info on that to see if it's true or not.

Recipes can be copyrighted? WTF? As been expressed before: there are only so many ways things can be done. Moreover, there are standard techniques that you can't really avoid. What next, someone suing someone because they "came up" or have a "unique" directions to make a roux?

I know I am not articulating myself well but it just seems so silly to me.

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Originally Posted by noxious.sunshine

But as someone who's worked to get to where they are and portray this Down-Home Wholesome Country Girl image, using a term like that to refer to a family member doesn't look good. When you're trying to uphold that kind of persona, then yes, you should apologize for using a word where you shouldn't. Nevermind the fact that she -knew- she did wrong by referring to him as "My retarded brother" in her blog.. She changed the entries without a word about it... Or she had the people working on her site do it for her.. Or her publicist(s) pointed out that it wasn't a good idea and it was removed. Whatever the scenario, someone on her team knew it was wrong, and the word was removed.

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Being a "Down-Home Wholesome Country Girl", it's quite possible that the offensive nature of the word did not reach her yet. Her ranch is in a traditional community, and farm/ranch life is not exactly the peak place to see what is currently trending in terms of political correctness. I still know people who use it as a descriptive or technical term without intending offense.

People complaining about the use of the word should apologize for failing to understand basic principles of human interaction. The word received its negative connotation from what it described, and whatever replacement term you select for it will receive the same negative connotation over time. I shouldn't have to apologize for not using the current term arbitrarily selected instead of words that have served well for my entire life. You were offended by it. That's not my fault.

Removing it may keep further people from being offended, and I can understand doing that once you know the potential to cause offense that it has. But you shouldn't have to apologize for using a perfectly valid term in a perfectly valid way.

Her brother is retarded. Look it up. It's a perfectly valid, descriptive, even technical term, and it's not her fault that offends you.

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Unfortunately, the word "retarded" does come with a negative connotation nowadays, just like you quoted.

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Which she likely wasn't aware of, and she changed once she was. Which is perfectly acceptable.

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Her brother actually -is- mentally retarded. She wasn't referring to him as "My retarded brother, Mike" in a joking way like you think- he really does have those issues. Personally, if I were in her shoes and it were -my- brother, he would've simply been "My brother" from the get go. Since her blog encompasses all aspects of her life, sure, like her, I would probably have a few stories to tell about him, but not in a way that seems condescending or mean spirited. That's the way she comes off to me practically every time she mentions him. I would acknowledge the fact that my brother is handicapped mentally, but I wouldn't make a spectacle of it every time I felt the need to write about him.

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In the few I've read (my mom follows her much more than I do), the stories were, as with most of her stories, tales about life and its various aspects and ups and downs. I think that the term was included to help readers, especially casual readers who might not know that her brother actually has those issues, gain some insight and context for the stories, rather than to be mean spirited, which you only real get if you believe that she knew the negative connotation of the word at the time she used it. Which, since it was a valid medical term, and she lives in a relatively insular community, I don't think she did.

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She's chosen to market herself in this light, which means she does kinda have an obligation to stick with it.

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She did stick with it, she changed her words and tone to be more acceptable to society. That is all she has to do. She shouldn't have to apologize for something misconstrued across culture lines. She just corrects the issue and moves on.

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Originally Posted by noxy

It's hard for me to explain this accurately, but let's say for example my mom's cheeseball and her sugar-free fudge. I mean of course, I would give my mom credit because she came up with those on her own, but there could be a thousand other people who've come up with the exact same recipe on their own.

Or the way I make and season my Mexican Red Rice.. Sure the basic technique is the same as pretty much all Mexicans make it, but I came up with the seasonings I use on my own. It just may be that someone else uses the same ones.. Does that mean I plagiarized that recipe?

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These are essentially my thoughts. Just because one person was perhaps the first person to come to light with a recipe, it does not mean that no one else in the world has thought of it. There are a millio different variations of a billion recipes. Claiming that someone is plagarizing your idea in the food world just amounts to pettiness and arrogance in thinking that you're the only one in the world who could come up with something like sneaking in fruits and vegetables to kids' meals.

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Originally Posted by Shorty

These are essentially my thoughts. Just because one person was perhaps the first person to come to light with a recipe, it does not mean that no one else in the world has thought of it. There are a millio different variations of a billion recipes. Claiming that someone is plagarizing your idea in the food world just amounts to pettiness and arrogance in thinking that you're the only one in the world who could come up with something like sneaking in fruits and vegetables to kids' meals.

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I would agree with that for general recipes. But sometimes recipes are incredibly specific. I have on my blog a recipe for chocolate chip cookies that requires you to whisk the batter for 30 seconds, rest for 3 minutes and repeat 3 times. This is specifically an America's Test Kitchen recipe and I credited them for it. If I hadn't credited them and acted like this was my own recipe, that would make me a douchebag.

But for something like cacio e pepe which requires you to simply toss in a certain amount of pecorino cheese, pepper, and pasta water into a pot, I don't think anyone can really claim that recipe as their own.

It might just be different for baking since baking is so very specific in the technique and measurements.

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Originally Posted by Jinx

Holy trout, only someone who is living under a rock doesn't know that the way she used the word retarded could be considered offensive. She could've also said "My brother with special needs". No, saying someone is mentally retarded is not offensive if they are actually mentally retarded. But the way she said it is kind of gross.

But just your argument that she's dumb because she's from a ranch/the country. People from the country aren't dumb, and they aren't shut out from the world.

I mean, I'll give her the benefit of the doubt that she wasn't being malicious in any way. More likely than not she wasn't. But saying that a grown woman probably didn't know any better because she comes from the country is a.) stupid and b.) kind of offensive in itself.

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It's not offensive to think that of her if you actually understand that there is a clear and distinct culture shift depending on where you live and in what community.

I live in a fairly conservative urban environment. Around me, the term "retarded" is used freely to describe mental retardation, and has no negative connotations unless it is clearly being used as an insult (and even then, you're more likely to get cries to stop misusing the term because it's offensive to people who are actually retarded than anything else). Usage of the "politically correct" terminology is almost universally met with derision and eye-rolling.

But I have family that lives in a rural environment far closer to what the Pioneer Woman lives in. And visiting them is an eye-opener to this sort of thing. The usage of PC terms would never even come up. It just doesn't happen. No one would blink an eye if you used them, but they wouldn't realize why you were doing it, or that there was anything wrong with using the terms that most of them had been using their entire life. Change of that sort comes far, far slower than it does to urban environments, and anyone who has been a part of that culture, even for a short time, can realize that.

Until she stepped into the culture outside her hometown (with things like the writing deals and the Food Network deals), her only likely exposure to a culture where the term "retarded" was considered inappropriate was on the internet. Which, unless she was extremely active on message boards, would mean that she wouldn't encounter the PC terms except in comments and complaints about her own works. It's not a common discussion topic, since most of the internet doesn't actually focus on culture trends, if you're not actively looking for it, which she had no reason to do.

You say you have to be living under a rock to miss the clear negative connotation that "retarded" has in today's culture. But "today's culture" is not a homogenous one, and it's more offensive that you think it is, than it is that I acknowledge the differences.

She lived in L.A. for years during college. She hasn't always been living under a rock, so saying that she's a "dumb country girl" is a little off-base.She wound up back in her hometown while firming up plans to move to Chicago after graduation and stayed there, eventually marrying her husband and moving onto his ranch.

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Originally Posted by noxious.sunshine

She lived in L.A. for years during college. She hasn't always been living under a rock, so saying that she's a "dumb country girl" is a little off-base.She wound up back in her hometown while firming up plans to move to Chicago after graduation and stayed there, eventually marrying her husband and moving onto his ranch.

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Which means nothing, as "retarded" did not become socially unacceptable until several years after she married (which was in 1996). Heck, the "official" change recognized by Congress didn't happen until 2010 (and I didn't even know that until I was looking things up for this argument).

And, again, the acceptable social use of a word changes from culture to culture. Where I live, there is still nothing wrong with the word "retard". People I live around may be aware that it is unacceptable in the rest of the country, but they just don't care, and most of them think that the politically correct movement to get rid of the word is ridiculous.

Okay but you're saying she's a product of her culture and surroundings when she clearly isn't. She may have gone back to her "roots" when she transitioned into being a housewife on a ranch, but even still, the whole ranch life wasn't how she was raised.

She grew up in the suburban part of her hometown town and frequented the country club. Her dad was a doctor or something. She didn't get up at 4 a.m. to go herd cattle and bale hay.

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Originally Posted by noxious.sunshine

Okay but you're saying she's a product of her culture and surroundings when she clearly isn't. She may have gone back to her "roots" when she transitioned into being a housewife on a ranch, but even still, the whole ranch life wasn't how she was raised.

She grew up in the suburban part of her hometown town and frequented the country club. Her dad was a doctor or something. She didn't get up at 4 a.m. to go herd cattle and bale hay.

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I'm not saying she's a product of her culture, I'm saying she's a member of her culture. And that culture is based more on area and community than it is with activity (though they do influence each other).

If you don't live in and among people who think a word is improper, you are not going to think that word is improper. It doesn't really matter what the news shows, or what political groups hundreds of miles away say, language is determined by what is used in and around you, and how it is used.


Also, I'm not actually making excuses for her, largely because I don't follow her work nearly well enough to be familiar with it or to have heard any of her comments on her brother. It's quite possible her words were intended in a negative light (either to upset viewers or to speak out frustrations of her brother), I've never seen them, and I can't say. I'm more arguing against political correctness in general, as well as trying to present a differing perspective.

And if it was not meant with poor intent, she should not have to apologize for it.

No but she should be more mindful of what she says or writes -before- she writes it rather than having to go back and fix it later.

What's on the internet stays on the internet.

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Originally Posted by noxious.sunshine

No but she should be more mindful of what she says or writes -before- she writes it rather than having to go back and fix it later.

What's on the internet stays on the internet.

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True. But on the other hand, anything you write on the Internet is probably going to find someone that it offends, since the Internet connects people from many different cultures and backgrounds all around the world. Even being careful, you'll probably miss some things.

Bless yer heart.

This discussion is mostly tl;dr but anyone who uses a term like "retarded", especially to describe their own siblings, is a dick. Period. It doesn't matter what you think of "political correctness"; the term genuinely offends people and it's well known the term offends people and anyone who intentionally hurts another's feelings without provocation is a dick. If you aren't actually consciously aware of how offensive the term is then you must be living under a rock.

I'm suddenly reminded of that special needs teacher who anonymously blogged about her little retards. That was my favorite blog and I hadn't thought about it for years... I wonder what it was called.

I don't have a problem with people using offensive terminology when referencing their own friends and family.