Plot Theory I've been thinking of.

I haven't played FF7 in ages, but have been tossing some ideas about the story around for awhile. This involves Cloud and Sephiroth in "Cloud's Past" in disc1, the flashback to Nibelheim at Kalm shortly after leaving Midgar.

What if the monster that Sephiroth released during this sequence was actually Cloud? It somewhat resembles Cloud, being a humanoid mako creature with spiky hair. Since Cloud was infused with mako, and we learn that he wasn't really there as he recalls, its possible he absorbed Zack's memories at that moment since Zack was nearby.

Sephiroth isn't really the main antagonist in the story, that role falls upon ShinRa and Hojo. Sephiroth guides the party through the storyline, periodically assisting the party by leaving summon material for them. So, Sephiroth released Cloud and then used him to accomplish his agenda. The response Cloud feels to Jenova in the canister at ShinRA HQ in disc1 mimics the response he gets looking at the creature in the canister during Cloud's Past.

I'm talking about the monster released from the canister at this part of the game:

http://i1.ytimg.com/vi/29euU5fNqk8/hqdefault.jpg

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The game itself it is fairly clear that Cloud is the original Cloud that grew up in Nibelheim. That's kind of the key item that gets sorted out by Tifa when they are in the lifestream.

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Originally Posted by VeloZer0

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The game itself it is fairly clear that Cloud is the original Cloud that grew up in Nibelheim. That's kind of the key item that gets sorted out by Tifa when they are in the lifestream.

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That's beside the point. Cloud grew up a normal person, but at one point he was infused with Mako. We don't actually know where the real Cloud is during Cloud's past.

And I don't know anything about the spin-off titles, so Cloud might have been infused at a different time, but I'm taking only the main title into consideration since that's what I'm familiar with.

Theory doesn't fit since he was one of the regular Shinra soldiers that went to Nibelheim with Sephiroth and Zack. He couldn't have been in the chamber since he went to the reactor with them and was standing outside keeping Tifa out.

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Originally Posted by Vivi22

Theory doesn't fit since he was one of the regular Shinra soldiers that went to Nibelheim with Sephiroth and Zack. He couldn't have been in the chamber since he went to the reactor with them and was standing outside keeping Tifa out.

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I was thinking that might be the case. How explicit is the game in this? There were many soldiers there, and its possible Cloud yet again reabsorbed the memory of a nearby soldier. Being in the canister, and then being released into a charged environment would easily explain how the memories could be mixed in together in the first place.

It's explicitly shown to be Cloud. The other compilation stuff, despite their many flaws, are also consistent on that point. Cloud was one of the soldiers that went with them to Nibelheim, and was shown to be the one guarding the reactor entrance when Zack and Sephiroth go in.

And after Cloud puts his mind and memories back together in the life stream I think it was pretty clear that he was able to sort his real memories from the fake ones at that point. I'm a bit fuzzier on that though. That said, I don't believe his false memories were the result of absorbing memories from Zack. It was just that he was there and when his mind was broken by the events and by the experiments on him later by Hojo, the memories of what he experienced with them got mixed up with his old memories and dream of joining Soldier. That's why he had gaps in his memory when he was telling the story in Kalm. He was missing chunks of what happened because other people experienced them while he wasn't there and he was only told so much by them.

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Originally Posted by Vivi22

It's explicitly shown to be Cloud. The other compilation stuff, despite their many flaws, are also consistent on that point. Cloud was one of the soldiers that went with them to Nibelheim, and was shown to be the one guarding the reactor entrance when Zack and Sephiroth go in.

And after Cloud puts his mind and memories back together in the life stream I think it was pretty clear that he was able to sort his real memories from the fake ones at that point. I'm a bit fuzzier on that though. That said, I don't believe his false memories were the result of absorbing memories from Zack. It was just that he was there and when his mind was broken by the events and by the experiments on him later by Hojo, the memories of what he experienced with them got mixed up with his old memories and dream of joining Soldier. That's why he had gaps in his memory when he was telling the story in Kalm. He was missing chunks of what happened because other people experienced them while he wasn't there and he was only told so much by them.

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Even still, its a pretty bizarre plot point to begin with. Being "shown" a flashback scene that never actually occurred in reality means the on-screen depiction of the characters is just a recollection, and subject to the same false memories that Cloud experienced.

That aside, is the beast that Sephiroth releases from the canister ever relevant to the story? It was a pretty dramatized scene with the only explanation for this specific action is Sephiroth's emotion or rage.

Did he release it? I thought it just broke open of it's own accord.

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Originally Posted by VeloZer0

Did he release it? I thought it just broke open of it's own accord.

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Final Fantasy VII Playthrough (54) Cloud's Past #5 - YouTube skip to around 2:00 minutes for the scene in question.

So, after watching it, I was incorrect about Cloud having a reaction to viewing the beast similar to when he views Jenova in Midgar, and Sephiroth doesn't directly release it. However, there is still a connection. Whenever Sephiroth comes into contact with Cloud during the main story, the audio track changes to suit a mode of distress, i.e. ringing ears, heavy heartbeat, ominous tones. In this way, Sephiroth has a sort of telepathic dominance over Cloud through the main story (more obvious at certain points than others).

Cloud's past is the period of time when Sephiroth becomes enlightened to his true potential. He doesn't yet understand the extent of his telepathic powers, or his ability to direct bodies non-physically as demonstrated by his "clones". The beast opening at the same time as Sephiroth's epiphany is more than mere coincidence; it is a consequence of the emotions being projected at the time. When Cloud looks at Jenova in Midgar, he is having an unconscious recollection of the repressed memory of being encapsulated and being connected to Jenova through Sephiroth.

I'm not sure that it was Cloud, but the similarities between Cloud and the creature that you noticed probably aren't a coincidence either. I think it could be foreshadowing on the part of the writers as to what Cloud is/could become.

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Originally Posted by Psychotic

I'm not sure that it was Cloud, but the similarities between Cloud and the creature that you noticed probably aren't a coincidence either. I think it could be foreshadowing on the part of the writers as to what Cloud is/could become.

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Well put! The writers wanted to make the event as impactful as possible so they made that scene resemble other parts of the story.

Eeh, I see where you get the spikey hair part from but this creature never looked like Cloud to me.

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Yeah, I really can't see it. The crazy hair is the only similarity but even then they are very different styles.

It's not hair on the mako rejects, it's spikes. If you play Crisis Core this becomes extra obvious as you fight like 5 of them.

I don't think there's any real reason to doubt cloud is cloud, especially since that would negate his whole revelation in FF7.
And if he was replaced with one, why wasn't Zack? And why would they even want cloud if they could duplicate a person with one of the abominations, after all, Zack is the most powerful thing Hojo has ever created, it wouldn't make sense to not duplicate him over and over if they could.

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Originally Posted by Hypoallergenic Chie

It's not hair on the mako rejects, it's spikes. If you play Crisis Core this becomes extra obvious as you fight like 5 of them.

I don't think there's any real reason to doubt cloud is cloud, especially since that would negate his whole revelation in FF7.
And if he was replaced with one, why wasn't Zack? And why would they even want cloud if they could duplicate a person with one of the abominations, after all, Zack is the most powerful thing Hojo has ever created, it wouldn't make sense to not duplicate him over and over if they could.

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I need some clarification. What revelation of Cloud's are you referring to? In the scene I'm talking about, isn't on-screen Cloud actually Zack anyways? I'm not really sure what the last point about Zack is referring to, it is bit of a hasty conclusion. As Vivi22 states, there were experiments done to Cloud, but I don't know enough about that plot point to know if it could coincide with Cloud's past.

Ok, ok, everyone stop.

There is no possible way that the beast is Cloud. The game's scenes show this extremely explicitly. We know precisely what happened, and when. We know where Cloud was during all of the Nibelheim events, we know where and when Cloud was experimented on.

Cloud was at Nibelheim during the events five years prior to the game. He was the Shinra soldier standing guard outside the reactor when Sephiroth and Zack went inside. The flashback's events are mostly correct in terms of what happened, because Cloud was there for most of the events.

The end of the flashback is where the scenario changes. Cloud rushed in after everything went down, grabbed Zack's sword, rushed up, and stabbed Sephiroth while Sephiroth was so obsessed with Jenova and not paying attention. Afterwards, Sephiroth limps away with Jenova, and Cloud confronted him again on the bridge of the reactor. Sephiroth stabbed Cloud, then Cloud overpowered Sephiroth, and used the Masamune as leverage to hurl Sephiroth off the bridge.

At this time everybody is essentially completely worn out and half dead with blood loss or exhaustion. Zagan rescues Tifa, his pupil, but the rest of the survivors, including Zack and Cloud, are picked up by the Shinra cleanup team (led by Hojo) and experimented on. This is when Cloud (along with the other Nibelheim survivors) is rebuilt into a Sephiroth clone. Part of the reason Hojo did it was because Hojo was completely shocked that Cloud had managed to overpower Sephiroth, something he had previously thought impossible. This might be part of the reason why the two of them are segregated from the rest of the survivors and experimented on in the basement together, but there is no concrete evidence of this.

During this time, Zack recovers better than Cloud, and manages to bust the both of them out. He grabs Cloud, gives Cloud an old uniform, and the two of them head to Midgar. During the trip, Zack talks to Cloud. We're explicitly shown him talking to Cloud about what he's going to do when he gets to Midgar, but given the length of the trip from Nibelheim to Midgar, I think it's a fair bet that Zack talked to Cloud about all sorts of things, from his early days with ShinRa, to his adventures in SOLDIER.

This is most likely the time during which Cloud's "Zack Persona" developed. Cloud, having suffered extreme mental trauma through both the events that occurred surrounding Sephiroth, and the experimentation done to him, retreats in his own mind. He develops a split personality. The core of his mind hides away, and is the ghostly "child Cloud" that we control during several of the scenes when Sephiroth dominates Cloud's minds and actions. A replacement personality develops, which fuses his own memories with the tales Zack told him. This new persona serves to hide not only from the events of Nibelheim, but also from Cloud's own failures. He retains his memories of his past, but everything from when he joined ShinRa on are based on Zack's memories. Joining SOLDIER, becoming First Class, being old war buddies with Sephiroth... All of these are Zack's memories. These are supported and influenced somewhat by his own (such as allowing him to recall ninety percent of what happened during the flashback scene), but also serve to distance him from the events to a degree.

Reconstructed Memories:


The Bonus Scene from the Shinra Mansion During Disc 4:

Thanks for the rebuttal Skyblade, always appreciated. I think Psychotic put my thoughts the best in that the beast was foreshadowing of the bonus scene linked by Skyblade.

The scene I describe actually occurs on a different day before the big fight that leads to them being incapacitated. You really need to understand the context in that some of Cloud's last memories before being traumatized were of him being next to Sephiroth in the reactor. So, the beast actually "is" Cloud in a figurative sense, in that Cloud created the fictional event of the beast breaking out of the capsule to parallel his own process of being infused with Jenova then escaping with Zack. Cloud's mind didn't want to accept the reality of him being experimented on in that tank. His mind places himself as having a conversation with Sephiroth to mask the missing time in the capsule. This is all likely the workings of the Jenova cells working through him.

The beast is out of context. Where did this beast go, why didn't Cloud and Sephiroth react at all? I mean, Cloud and Sephiroth fought that stupid dragon earlier under similar circumstances. The scene blanks out, just like Cloud's memories. This theory explains why the memory exists. Pretty crackpot theory at this point, I know, but I still love it for what it is.

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Originally Posted by zx12y

Thanks for the rebuttal Skyblade, always appreciated. I think Psychotic put my thoughts the best in that the beast was foreshadowing of the bonus scene linked by Skyblade.

The scene I describe actually occurs on a different day before the big fight that leads to them being incapacitated. You really need to understand the context in that some of Cloud's last memories before being traumatized were of him being next to Sephiroth in the reactor. So, the beast actually "is" Cloud in a figurative sense, in that Cloud created the fictional event of the beast breaking out of the capsule to parallel his own process of being infused with Jenova then escaping with Zack. Cloud's mind didn't want to accept the reality of him being experimented on in that tank. His mind places himself as having a conversation with Sephiroth to mask the missing time in the capsule. This is all likely the workings of the Jenova cells working through him.

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I know. But the point is, we know that the experimentation on Cloud did not begin until after the fight scene. You'd already linked that video, so I had no reason to do so.

We also don't know that the beast event is a fabrication. It is certainly a possibility. But, again, it could have been one of the reconstructions from Zack's memories. Zack talked to Cloud a lot. Which makes sense, actually. Zack is an extremely outgoing person and Cloud had suffered a lot of mental trauma. Talking can help to keep someone focused and awake in that situation (similar to a concussion, you don't want them falling asleep, you want them focused), so Zack could very well have told Cloud about what was in the reactor.

Actually, in all likelihood, Cloud knew about it even earlier. After the beast incident, Sephiroth locked himself in the mansion for weeks. Zack would almost certainly have shared what they found in the reactor with the rest of the ShinRa team while they were sitting there, essentially killing time until Sephiroth said it was time to go home. So Cloud would most assuredly know what the cause of the delay was, and why they were remaining so long.

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The beast is out of context. Where did this beast go, why didn't Cloud and Sephiroth react at all? I mean, Cloud and Sephiroth fought that stupid dragon earlier under similar circumstances. The scene blanks out, just like Cloud's memories. This theory explains why the memory exists. Pretty crackpot theory at this point, I know, but I still love it for what it is.

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Actually, the beast, at the time it broke out, seemed only half formed. They likely either killed it, or it wasn't yet ready to survive outside. Either way, this would be another indication that it was a reconstruction of the tale as Cloud was told it. The fate of the monster is largely unimportant. In fact, the cutoff could have occurred even if the beast ran outside and Cloud killed it. That is already the start of a time-skip section of the story (where he jumps forward several weeks time in a few scenes while describing Sephiroth's obsession). Remember, the flashback is explaining Sephiroth. Most of the extraneous bits are only told because the rest of the team asks for it (such as Cloud visiting his mother). There is no reason, in the story being told there, why that monster's fate would need to be expanded upon. The importance of it was that it served as a catalyst for Sephiroth's insanity.



While it could fit as a fabrication, and would make sense as the sort of thing that a mind would construct to help cope with the problems it faces, we do know that something occurred which changed Sephiroth that day, and it is very unlikely that Cloud would not have known what that event was (even though he wasn't there), or that, if that event had been fabricated, that we would not have discovered the truth when his memories were rebuilt.

Skyblade is right. Like, it's an interesting theory, but it's not solid. Foreshadowing at best. Otherwise I think they were simply trying to make something human but monstrous to have the greatest impact.