Continuing the P3/Canon discussion

Finally got back to my PC. :)

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A one version of a game isn't necessarily perfect just because it's canon. That makes it canon, not perfect. The main story is just one part of the game. My point still stands, P3FES it still not perfect.

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I never called it perfect. No game is perfect. I'm a much bigger fan of P4 anyway.

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Oh yeah, i forgot to mention earlier that it also has gameplay improvements.
Of course, P3P isn't perfect either, as it lacks The Answer and it also has poorer graphics.

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The battle system is better in P3P. However, exploration has been dumbed down to visual novel style, and the cutscenes were removed and reduced to stills. Not being able to really walk around was a major turn off.

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Well, personally, I don't think that The Answer is written as well as the rest of the game is.

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I don't disagree.

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Also, you don't actually need The Answer to understand the plot of Persona 3, the game stands on its own.

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True, however you need it to understand a few things in P4:Arena. Remember that this whole thing is coming from the mindset of the TC having already played P3:FES. Now I see where this misunderstanding is coming from.

Remember, I said that P3P is the best PSP game. However, if you've already played FES then there is no real reason to get P3P(since you've already experienced all the canon plot points, including the Answer which leads into P4:Arena). P3P is only for new comers, or people that completely love P3 and want to try out a different fantasy scenario(with all of the major plot points in tact). That's how I saw it at least, and all I was getting at.

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Is it worth giving up on the superior writing of the Female Main Character's Social Links? Purely subjective.

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I gotta disagree with this. The Sun social link is by far the deepest and most thought provoking social link in P3, and it was around long before the female MC. Besides, the main characters get developed well enough in the story. I'd rather get to learn the NPCs in social links.

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It's hardly easy if you aren't following a guide, as a single incorrect answer can still completely screw it up. Also, in the original Persona 3, before FES came out, you had absolutely zero lapse time in your schedule to max every Social Link. It was fan obsession and calculation that even determined it was possible, it wasn't built that way (which is also why the max Social Link Fusion items would carry over to the next game, because you weren't supposed to be able to get them all at once). You needed to follow an extremely set schedule, and answer every question absolutely correctly. When FES rolled around, ATLUS took note of those fans, and the number of people who wanted to complete all the Social Links in a single story, and added in more spare time, and a reward for getting them all (Orpheus Telos).

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Ah yes, you are correct. It's been so long since I've played the original that I had forgotten.

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There is no canon in these stories except what you want. If you choose to let the world end, there's your canon. If you choose to whore the male Main Character out to every potential romance, there's your canon. If you choose to not romance anyone, that's acceptable canon too. If you choose to not defeat Elizabeth or even open the Monad depths, that can be canon as well. Play a complete loner and never expand a Social Link beyond the ones the game forces on you. Perfectly acceptable canon.

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Only Atlus decides canon, not us fans. Besides, by that logic, no game has a canon story. In Super Mario Bros. I can jump in a hole, and allow Bowser to keep Peach forever. Canon-wise Mario saves her though.

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Yes.

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Nice, a fellow fan of all the games. That makes me, you, and NeoCracker. Anyone else?

How'd you like the P2 duology?

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Also, it's more like adding a chapter *after* disc 3 of FF7 in a later edition of the game, not cutting the existing game off at disc 2.

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I'll concede this. You are right Mirage.

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Originally Posted by Bright Shield

Finally got back to my PC. :)

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A one version of a game isn't necessarily perfect just because it's canon. That makes it canon, not perfect. The main story is just one part of the game. My point still stands, P3FES it still not perfect.

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I never called it perfect. No game is perfect. I'm a much bigger fan of P4 anyway.

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Oh yeah, i forgot to mention earlier that it also has gameplay improvements.
Of course, P3P isn't perfect either, as it lacks The Answer and it also has poorer graphics.

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The battle system is better in P3P. However, exploration has been dumbed down to visual novel style, and the cutscenes were removed and reduced to stills. Not being able to really walk around was a major turn off.

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Yeah, you didn't say it was perfect, I just mentioned that to let the OP know that all versions have their drawbacks. My point was just that if there was a version of P3 with the FES stuff, female main character, the gameplay improvements of P3P and none of the grpahical downgrades, that would be much closer to a perfect P3 version than any of the versions that currently are available.

Of course, some of the graphical downgrades in P3P are probably because of performance concerns. While the PSP could easily have been able to display all the slink scenes and exploration in 3D like on the PS2, using 2D graphics saves a lot of processing power, which in turn saves a lot of battery. I think the changes were mainly to improve battery life, which is kind of understandable. The lack of anime cutscenes is probably because they didn't have the time/money to redo them entirely with a female instead of a male in them.

I really hope they add the option to choose between a male and a female main character in P5, though. It adds replay value, and it's interesting to see different perspectives.

Just for the record, I haven't played most SMT games, but I plan on at least completing all of the persona games in time. I have all the pre-PS2 ones on my PSP, so it's just a matter of time. All depends on how much idle time I get at work :p. I might dive into other SMT games, but I haven't got much experience with them. I played SMT3 Nocturne or whatever, but that's it.

If you have a DS, I highly recomend Devil Survivor 2 if you ever get the chance, but that's another topic. :p

I never bothered with P3P because it lacked the Answer, so I can't really say I'm the best judge here. But Aegis being my favorite character from P3, I am hugely biased here as well. :p

And yeah, Male Protaganist is most definately canon, though really that's kind if irrelevant to the quality of one over the other. :p

I'm planning on getting a 3DS, but I'm annoyed that there won't be any SMT4 for me if i get one that is european.

The only version of P3 I've played is P3P and I still thought it was awesome.

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Originally Posted by Bright Shield

Finally got back to my PC. :)

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A one version of a game isn't necessarily perfect just because it's canon. That makes it canon, not perfect. The main story is just one part of the game. My point still stands, P3FES it still not perfect.

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I never called it perfect. No game is perfect. I'm a much bigger fan of P4 anyway.

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No, you called it the "definitive" version.

Definitive:
most reliable or complete, as of a text, author, criticism, study, or the like:

Which, since it lacks all the content for the female main character, is quite debatable. There's probably more content in the female version than there is in The Answer.

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Oh yeah, i forgot to mention earlier that it also has gameplay improvements.
Of course, P3P isn't perfect either, as it lacks The Answer and it also has poorer graphics.

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The battle system is better in P3P. However, exploration has been dumbed down to visual novel style, and the cutscenes were removed and reduced to stills. Not being able to really walk around was a major turn off.

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I don't remember exploration ever being big in Persona 3, in any version. It's not really an exploration based game.

Also, while I miss some of the cutscenes, I find P3P's presentation of a couple of them (such as the main character's Awakening) superior.

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Also, you don't actually need The Answer to understand the plot of Persona 3, the game stands on its own.

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True, however you need it to understand a few things in P4:Arena. Remember that this whole thing is coming from the mindset of the TC having already played P3:FES. Now I see where this misunderstanding is coming from.

Remember, I said that P3P is the best PSP game. However, if you've already played FES then there is no real reason to get P3P(since you've already experienced all the canon plot points, including the Answer which leads into P4:Arena). P3P is only for new comers, or people that completely love P3 and want to try out a different fantasy scenario(with all of the major plot points in tact). That's how I saw it at least, and all I was getting at.

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If you've already played FES, then you are better off playing P3P, because it will give you the new Social Links.

Also, I never realized that TC had already played Persona 3. Why would you not want to play the game again, especially with new Social Links?

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Is it worth giving up on the superior writing of the Female Main Character's Social Links? Purely subjective.

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I gotta disagree with this. The Sun social link is by far the deepest and most thought provoking social link in P3, and it was around long before the female MC. Besides, the main characters get developed well enough in the story. I'd rather get to learn the NPCs in social links.

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You'd really rather have the Gourmet King than a Social Link with Shinjiro? I don't think we're ever going to agree on this subject.

As I said, it's purely subjective. There is no "right" answer. In my mind, the value of the extra Social Links is far greater than that of The Answer.

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There is no canon in these stories except what you want. If you choose to let the world end, there's your canon. If you choose to whore the male Main Character out to every potential romance, there's your canon. If you choose to not romance anyone, that's acceptable canon too. If you choose to not defeat Elizabeth or even open the Monad depths, that can be canon as well. Play a complete loner and never expand a Social Link beyond the ones the game forces on you. Perfectly acceptable canon.

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Only Atlus decides canon, not us fans. Besides, by that logic, no game has a canon story. In Super Mario Bros. I can jump in a hole, and allow Bowser to keep Peach forever. Canon-wise Mario saves her though.

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Gaming is based around interactivity. Especially when games start designing themselves for interactive storytelling there is no canon. There, in fact, cannot be a canon story in a game based around an interactive storytelling experience. And, yeah, if you chose to kill Mario as a story element, I would be willing to consider than canon (it would certainly make more sense than her getting captured 15,000 times).

No every game features an interactive story even in potential, however. Go play Beyond Two Souls if you want an example for that. You can literally do nothing and the story won't change.

The story of a game does not belong to the writer. Games are interactive. Without the player, there is no story. Heck, the entire point of the Shin Megami Tensei series is the power of free will to decide on a path for yourself regardless of whatever options you may be presented with. Way to miss all that by locking yourself down to the exact story that the game designers list as the "True" ending and following it blindly.

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Yes.

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Nice, a fellow fan of all the games. That makes me, you, and NeoCracker. Anyone else?

How'd you like the P2 duology?

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I liked it fairly well. It was certainly better than any of the Shin Megami Tensei games. I don't like it nearly as well as Persona 3 or Persona 4 though.

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Yeah, you didn't say it was perfect, I just mentioned that to let the OP know that all versions have their drawbacks. My point was just that if there was a version of P3 with the FES stuff, female main character, the gameplay improvements of P3P and none of the grpahical downgrades, that would be much closer to a perfect P3 version than any of the versions that currently are available.

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I can agree to that.

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I really hope they add the option to choose between a male and a female main character in P5, though. It adds replay value, and it's interesting to see different perspectives.

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Personally, I'd want 1 set main character, and I'd like him/her to speak as well.

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If you have a DS, I highly recomend Devil Survivor 2 if you ever get the chance, but that's another topic. :p

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Seconded.

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No, you called it the "definitive" version.

Definitive:
most reliable or complete, as of a text, author, criticism, study, or the like:

Which, since it lacks all the content for the female main character, is quite debatable. There's probably more content in the female version than there is in The Answer.

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It is the MOST complete version, since it's the only one to contain The Answer. The Female Protagonist is a fantasy scenario that has no place in the canon/official P3 continuity. While The Answer is canon/official. So lacking the Female Protagonist is not as crucial as lacking The Answer. FES is the only version to contain the entire P3 story which leads into P4:Arena, thus making it the most complete.

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Why would you not want to play the game again, especially with new Social Links?

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Depends on how big of a fan you are.

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You'd really rather have the Gourmet King than a Social Link with Shinjiro? I don't think we're ever going to agree on this subject.

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Shinjiro is my favorite character, so I might be biased for him. If I could pick and choose, I'd gladly get rid of some of the party member social links in favor of NPCs though.

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As I said, it's purely subjective. There is no "right" answer. In my mind, the value of the extra Social Links is far greater than that of The Answer.

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Quality isn't the issue here.

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There is no canon in these stories except what you want. If you choose to let the world end, there's your canon. If you choose to whore the male Main Character out to every potential romance, there's your canon. If you choose to not romance anyone, that's acceptable canon too. If you choose to not defeat Elizabeth or even open the Monad depths, that can be canon as well. Play a complete loner and never expand a Social Link beyond the ones the game forces on you. Perfectly acceptable canon. Only Atlus decides canon, not us fans. Besides, by that logic, no game has a canon story. In Super Mario Bros. I can jump in a hole, and allow Bowser to keep Peach forever. Canon-wise Mario saves her though.


Gaming is based around interactivity. Especially when games start designing themselves for interactive storytelling there is no canon. There, in fact, cannot be a canon story in a game based around an interactive storytelling experience. And, yeah, if you chose to kill Mario as a story element, I would be willing to consider than canon (it would certainly make more sense than her getting captured 15,000 times).

No every game features an interactive story even in potential, however. Go play Beyond Two Souls if you want an example for that. You can literally do nothing and the story won't change.

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This is where you are 100% wrong. Canon = the official version. Considering that Atlus made both The Answer and Male MC canon, then that is the true canon. I can make Mario die in the first level of Mario 1, but canon-wise he's conquered that and every other adventure he's ever been on. What makes sense to you or me is irrelevant. All that matters is what the creators dictate to be canon.

canon: Another word for official. Used quite often in fan fiction to differentiate between the official storyline in which the fan fiction is based on.

To claim that the version that Atlus is following in the sequels isn't official, is rather silly. Atlus has chosen that male MC and The Answer are canon. Whether or not you like it, makes no difference.

I do feel your pain though. I despise the FFVII Compilation, but I have to admit that it is canon. Even if it makes me sad... :cry:

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The story of a game does not belong to the writer. Games are interactive. Without the player, there is no story. Heck, the entire point of the Shin Megami Tensei series is the power of free will to decide on a path for yourself regardless of whatever options you may be presented with. Way to miss all that by locking yourself down to the exact story that the game designers list as the "True" ending and following it blindly.

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I missed nothing. I still get all endings, just to see them. Doesn't change the fact that once Atlus reveals an official version, that ending becomes the true canon.

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I liked it fairly well. It was certainly better than any of the Shin Megami Tensei games. I don't like it nearly as well as Persona 3 or Persona 4 though.

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I definitely preferred Devil Survivor 2 and DS: Overclocked to P2 though. Catherine as well, but I don't think that game counts as MegaTen. The story is good in P2, but the dungeons are just plain annoying.

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Originally Posted by Bright Shield

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No, you called it the "definitive" version.

Definitive:
most reliable or complete, as of a text, author, criticism, study, or the like:

Which, since it lacks all the content for the female main character, is quite debatable. There's probably more content in the female version than there is in The Answer.

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It is the MOST complete version, since it's the only one to contain The Answer. The Female Protagonist is a fantasy scenario that has no place in the canon/official P3 continuity. While The Answer is canon/official. So lacking the Female Protagonist is not as crucial as lacking The Answer. FES is the only version to contain the entire P3 story which leads into P4:Arena, thus making it the most complete.

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Again, claiming that Female Protagonist is not as crucial as The Answer is purely opinion. In my mind, the "more" complete version is the version with the Female Main Character. I gain a lot more content, and lose some lower quality content. While we're at it, you should realize that the definitive version of the game usually features the best combat and gameplay, in which case P3P still beats out FES.

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You'd really rather have the Gourmet King than a Social Link with Shinjiro? I don't think we're ever going to agree on this subject.

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Shinjiro is my favorite character, so I might be biased for him. If I could pick and choose, I'd gladly get rid of some of the party member social links in favor of NPCs though.

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Which ones would you choose given the options? The ones which were replaced for party members were Star (which became Akihiko), Justice (Ken Amada), Magician (Junpei), and Moon (Akihiko).

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As I said, it's purely subjective. There is no "right" answer. In my mind, the value of the extra Social Links is far greater than that of The Answer.

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Quality isn't the issue here.

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Ok, so what is the issue? For a definitive version, the "most" complete would be the one with the most content. So, it's P3P.

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There is no canon in these stories except what you want. If you choose to let the world end, there's your canon. If you choose to whore the male Main Character out to every potential romance, there's your canon. If you choose to not romance anyone, that's acceptable canon too. If you choose to not defeat Elizabeth or even open the Monad depths, that can be canon as well. Play a complete loner and never expand a Social Link beyond the ones the game forces on you. Perfectly acceptable canon. Only Atlus decides canon, not us fans. Besides, by that logic, no game has a canon story. In Super Mario Bros. I can jump in a hole, and allow Bowser to keep Peach forever. Canon-wise Mario saves her though.


Gaming is based around interactivity. Especially when games start designing themselves for interactive storytelling there is no canon. There, in fact, cannot be a canon story in a game based around an interactive storytelling experience. And, yeah, if you chose to kill Mario as a story element, I would be willing to consider than canon (it would certainly make more sense than her getting captured 15,000 times).

No every game features an interactive story even in potential, however. Go play Beyond Two Souls if you want an example for that. You can literally do nothing and the story won't change.

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This is where you are 100% wrong. Canon = the official version. Considering that Atlus made both The Answer and Male MC canon, then that is the true canon. I can make Mario die in the first level of Mario 1, but canon-wise he's conquered that and every other adventure he's ever been on. What makes sense to you or me is irrelevant. All that matters is what the creators dictate to be canon.

canon: Another word for official. Used quite often in fan fiction to differentiate between the official storyline in which the fan fiction is based on.

To claim that the version that Atlus is following in the sequels isn't official, is rather silly. Atlus has chosen that male MC and The Answer are canon. Whether or not you like it, makes no difference.

I do feel your pain though. I despise the FFVII Compilation, but I have to admit that it is canon. Even if it makes me sad... :cry:

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If ATLUS ever actually declared that a particular story was canon, yes, it would be canon. But they didn't. They chose a single path to use for the follow up games, but that's not the same thing. It's like arguing that in Mass Effect, the canon story is that Wrex dies, because that's what happens when you start up Mass Effect 2 with a new game.

ATLUS has never declared an official version of their stories for the most part. Other companies have. Nintendo, for example, made a declaration that Link's name is officially Link, regardless of what players named him themselves. That is a canon statement.

In Persona 4 Arena, none of your choices from Persona 3 or Persona 4 matter. Is that ATLUS saying that none of them occurred in the canon story? No. That is ATLUS trying to accommodate a huge variety of choices and options for their fans without using save file importing, or wasting hundreds of hours on voice acting and dialogue for each permutation of the situation. It's why they try to be as vague as possible on any issue in which player choice was a factor, because ATLUS believes in interactive storytelling, and that player choice matters.

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The story of a game does not belong to the writer. Games are interactive. Without the player, there is no story. Heck, the entire point of the Shin Megami Tensei series is the power of free will to decide on a path for yourself regardless of whatever options you may be presented with. Way to miss all that by locking yourself down to the exact story that the game designers list as the "True" ending and following it blindly.

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I missed nothing. I still get all endings, just to see them. Doesn't change the fact that once Atlus reveals an official version, that ending becomes the true canon.

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ATLUS hasn't revealed an official version of most of the stories. The closest they've gotten is in writing the neutral path as the "True" ending in most of the Shin Megami Tensei games. They needed to choose a path going forward to minimize expenditure of resources and keep their writing focused. That is not the same thing.

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I liked it fairly well. It was certainly better than any of the Shin Megami Tensei games. I don't like it nearly as well as Persona 3 or Persona 4 though.

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I definitely preferred Devil Survivor 2 and DS: Overclocked to P2 though. Catherine as well, but I don't think that game counts as MegaTen. The story is good in P2, but the dungeons are just plain annoying.

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I have Catherine, but I haven't played it yet. Catherine is in canon with Persona, though. Did you know that? Another way in which P3P is more "definitive" than FES.

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Originally Posted by Bright Shield

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Yeah, you didn't say it was perfect, I just mentioned that to let the OP know that all versions have their drawbacks. My point was just that if there was a version of P3 with the FES stuff, female main character, the gameplay improvements of P3P and none of the grpahical downgrades, that would be much closer to a perfect P3 version than any of the versions that currently are available.

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I can agree to that.

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I really hope they add the option to choose between a male and a female main character in P5, though. It adds replay value, and it's interesting to see different perspectives.

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Personally, I'd want 1 set main character, and I'd like him/her to speak as well.

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Canon-wise it doesn't really matter if you can select between male or female if the main story of the game plays out the exact same for both. At the same time, it brings more replay value, and an option for people to choose a gender that they might more easily identify with. After all, there is quite a bit of female gamers in the world these days, and while I'm sure not all of them care if they control a male or a female, I am sure that a lot of them would like to at least have the option in a world where they most of the time have no choice but to play a guy.

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Again, claiming that Female Protagonist is not as crucial as The Answer is purely opinion. In my mind, the "more" complete version is the version with the Female Main Character. I gain a lot more content, and lose some lower quality content.

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That's because you are refusing to acknowledge that the Female storyline is irrelevant to the overall Persona continuity. With the male protagonist you get The Journey, The Answer, P4: Arena, P4: The Ulimax Ultra Suplex Hold, and possibly even Persona Q(if this game is revealed to be canon). With the Female MC, you just get The Journey...

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While we're at it, you should realize that the definitive version of the game usually features the best combat and gameplay, in which case P3P still beats out FES.

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Combat-wise yes, but everything else was dumbed down.

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Which ones would you choose given the options? The ones which were replaced for party members were Star (which became Akihiko), Justice (Ken Amada), Magician (Junpei), and Moon (Akihiko).

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I hate Akihiko with a passion, so I definitely don't want a social link with him. Ditto for Ken, and I'm indifferent towards Junpei. I'd keep Shinjiro's, since he's awesome and well deserving of a social link.

Heck, I'd take away Mitsuru's social link as well; since I hate her guts too. lol

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Ok, so what is the issue? For a definitive version, the "most" complete would be the one with the most content. So, it's P3P.

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Is the Female MC really more content when you think about it though? The story is nearly the exact same thing, save for a few events and a few new social links. That is not more content than The Answer offers.

Not to mention all the content you get once you factor in that the Male MC's path leads into all the spin-offs/sequels.

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If ATLUS ever actually declared that a particular story was canon, yes, it would be canon. But they didn't. They chose a single path to use for the follow up games, but that's not the same thing.

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They used the Male MC in the sequels. That alone makes him canon. It's exactly the same thing. The male MC's path is what is being used in the official sequels. Therefore, the Male MC is the official/canon protagonist. Doesn't get any more simple than that.

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It's like arguing that in Mass Effect, the canon story is that Wrex dies, because that's what happens when you start up Mass Effect 2 with a new game.

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Not the same thing at all. Mass Effect lets you transfer over your choices, and adjusts the story accordingly. If they make a Mass Effect 4 and it follows a certain Mass Effect 3 ending no matter what, then that particular ending was canon.

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ATLUS has never declared an official version of their stories for the most part.

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Don't need to, when the sequels are following a certain path.

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In Persona 4 Arena, none of your choices from Persona 3 or Persona 4 matter.

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Your choices do not, however the MC is clearly stated to be a "him". So it was officially revealed that male MC is canon. Not only that, but you see the male MC's picture in the credits.

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ATLUS hasn't revealed an official version of most of the stories.

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Indeed, but when they do, that is the canon path. Just as the "True Ending" of P4 is canon, and the "Fight Nyx" ending of P3 is canon.

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The closest they've gotten is in writing the neutral path as the "True" ending in most of the Shin Megami Tensei games. They needed to choose a path going forward to minimize expenditure of resources and keep their writing focused. That is not the same thing.

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The reasoning behind the choice doesn't matter. It's still canon, no matter Atlus' reasoning for following a particular ending.

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I have Catherine, but I haven't played it yet.

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Best puzzle game ever. Oh, and it hasn't been revealed, but I'd bet you anything that the "True Katherine Ending" is the canon path. =P

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Catherine is in canon with Persona, though. Did you know that? Another way in which P3P is more "definitive" than FES.

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A random Vincent cameo hardly proves your point.

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Canon-wise it doesn't really matter if you can select between male or female if the main story of the game plays out the exact same for both. At the same time, it brings more replay value, and an option for people to choose a gender that they might more easily identify with. After all, there is quite a bit of female gamers in the world these days, and while I'm sure not all of them care if they control a male or a female, I am sure that a lot of them would like to at least have the option in a world where they most of the time have no choice but to play a guy.

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If that alone can stop someone from enjoying a game, then they were never interested in it to begin with. To be honest, that sounds more like a feminist agenda than anything.

Okay, not the topic at hand, but how can you list off hating all those characters and not mention Yukari? The worst party maember in any persona game, and the second worse in any Shin Megami Tensai game? :p

I actually love Yukari, since she shares my hatred for Mitsuru for most of the game. :)

All she does all game is complain about your choices and make bitchy comments about Mitsuru. XD

She was like the prototype for Yoohoo in the First Devil Survivor.


Edit: Oh right, and she coined the term 'stupei'. So you can chalk her up as stupid as well. :p

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All she does all game is complain about your choices and make bitchy comments about Mitsuru. XD

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Yeah, the complaining is annoying. However, I'm fine with her Mitsuru bashing. I hate her guts.

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She was like the prototype for Yoohoo in the First Devil Survivor.

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I didn't really mind Yuzu so much either, lol.

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Edit: Oh right, and she coined the term 'stupei'. So you can chalk her up as stupid as well. :p

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Not really a Junpei fan either, and he usually deserves the abuse. :tongue:

Like him or not, the insult itself sounds like something a third grader would say.

Oh God, feminist agenda? Really, man? You have no idea how big an issue female representation in media is. Whenever I hear something like this, I just... Bah!

On topic, there's something called the death of the author. No matter what they say, once the story's out there, it's out there and they have no more influence on what it is, regardless of sequels. In my eyes both the male and female path are canon, just not in the same universe. I see them as two sides of the same coin where one cannot exist if the other does, but the world they inhabit is basically the same. Their different perspectives on different characters are both valid, because just because one protagonist gets to know a different side of a character than the other, it doesn't mean that character trait doesn't exist in the other universe. Yukari is more forward and nice towards the FeMC, but that doesn't mean she can't be a bit nagging at times. And even if Akihiko's or Shinjiro's softer side surfaces when with Minako, it doesn't mean it doesn't exist in Minato's world. The outcome is always the same, we just get different angles on certain characters, so why can't both be canon?

Also, I don't get you guys hating these characters. The writing in this game is top-notch. We get to spend so much time with these characters and get to know them so close, we get to see how real and layered they are. After all that, I could never bring myself to hate them, 'cause the game really made me feel like they were my family?

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Originally Posted by Bright Shield

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It's like arguing that in Mass Effect, the canon story is that Wrex dies, because that's what happens when you start up Mass Effect 2 with a new game.

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Not the same thing at all. Mass Effect lets you transfer over your choices, and adjusts the story accordingly. If they make a Mass Effect 4 and it follows a certain Mass Effect 3 ending no matter what, then that particular ending was canon.

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Ok then. Let's look at another point. Your decision to clear the Consort's name of the framing charges in Mass Effect 1 does not properly transfer to Mass Effect 2 (one of several decisions that is glitched in the transfer). Does this mean that it is "canon" that, no matter which choice you made, Shepherd never helped Shai'ira?

Because otherwise you have to realize that technical issues can adjust the story, without actually affecting canon. That an inability to transfer save files and take your decisions into account does not invalidate those decisions. We already know that system limitations are responsible for things like P3P not getting The Answer, and not being able to load your save file from P3 or FES into P3P, so what else might have been decided as impossible or impractical because of technical restrictions?

The story you play is the canon. ATLUS moves the story forward in the best way they could. They had to make a decision one way or the other, but that doesn't mean that they are disallowing the choices of fans of the other side.

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Originally Posted by Bright Shield

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Canon-wise it doesn't really matter if you can select between male or female if the main story of the game plays out the exact same for both. At the same time, it brings more replay value, and an option for people to choose a gender that they might more easily identify with. After all, there is quite a bit of female gamers in the world these days, and while I'm sure not all of them care if they control a male or a female, I am sure that a lot of them would like to at least have the option in a world where they most of the time have no choice but to play a guy.

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If that alone can stop someone from enjoying a game, then they were never interested in it to begin with. To be honest, that sounds more like a feminist agenda than anything.

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No one has said anything about anyone being unable to enjoy a game for that reason. Now you're putting words in my mouth. There are however degrees to enjoyment. Many people would like to be able to see alternative perspectives of the same story, and when it doesn't notably affect the grand scheme of things, why is it a bad thing to add? Personally, there's not a "feminist agenda" to my suggestion of this. Personally, I am just tired of always seeing the male perspective of almost everything. It's boring, really. I'm a guy, I already have a pretty good grasp of how male life is. I do however not have nearly as good a grasp of how female life is, so that sparks my curiousity. Half the people I can interact with in the real world happen to be females, being able to understand them better certainly wouldn't hurt, right?

The fact that women are underrepresented as main heroes in games and other popular media is however still an actual thing, and there's certainly nothing wrong in trying to bring a bit of balance there either.

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Like him or not, the insult itself sounds like something a third grader would say.

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I always took it as more of a culture thing than anything. Although, I'm not sure what she says in Japanese, so I'm not positive.

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Oh God, feminist agenda? Really, man?

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If someone cannot fully enjoy a game because the main character is male, then they are a part of the feminist agenda. Not to mention sexist.

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You have no idea how big an issue female representation in media is. Whenever I hear something like this, I just... Bah!

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For a second there you almost made me forget about Terra, Lara Croft, Shion, Claire Redfield, Jill Valentine, Bayonetta, Chris Lightfellow, Maya Amano, Samus Aran, Aya Brea, Lyndis, Eirika, Millia, Cornet etc.

There's literally hundreds if not thousands of female leads in gaming alone.

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In my eyes both the male and female path are canon, just not in the same universe.

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Yes, but one path is the official canon which Atlus has chosen to follow and add upon, and the other is a fantasy alternate reality. Canon refers to the official path, and only the official path.

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The outcome is always the same, we just get different angles on certain characters, so why can't both be canon?

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Contradicting paths can never both be canon. Just like in Knights of the Old Republic. (SPOILER)Bioware confirmed that male Lightside Revan is canon.

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Also, I don't get you guys hating these characters. The writing in this game is top-notch. We get to spend so much time with these characters and get to know them so close, we get to see how real and layered they are. After all that, I could never bring myself to hate them, 'cause the game really made me feel like they were my family?

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Expecting people to like every character in the game is rather strange. I've never liked the entire cast in any game/movie/anime etc. There's always someone I despise; usually more than 1 person.

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Ok then. Let's look at another point. Your decision to clear the Consort's name of the framing charges in Mass Effect 1 does not properly transfer to Mass Effect 2 (one of several decisions that is glitched in the transfer). Does this mean that it is "canon" that, no matter which choice you made, Shepherd never helped Shai'ira?

Because otherwise you have to realize that technical issues can adjust the story, without actually affecting canon. That an inability to transfer save files and take your decisions into account does not invalidate those decisions. We already know that system limitations are responsible for things like P3P not getting The Answer, and not being able to load your save file from P3 or FES into P3P, so what else might have been decided as impossible or impractical because of technical restrictions?

The story you play is the canon. ATLUS moves the story forward in the best way they could. They had to make a decision one way or the other, but that doesn't mean that they are disallowing the choices of fans of the other side.

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This doesn't really apply to the P3 MC, since later material confirmed him and The Answer, as the true canon path. You've provided an explanation as to why P3P didn't include the answer, but that doesn't change the fact that The Answer is confirmed as canon in later material.

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No one has said anything about anyone being unable to enjoy a game for that reason. Now you're putting words in my mouth. There are however degrees to enjoyment.

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If someone likes a game, they'll enjoy it about the same regardless if the hero is male or female.

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Many people would like to be able to see alternative perspectives of the same story, and when it doesn't notably affect the grand scheme of things, why is it a bad thing to add?

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Never said it was bad, just non canon.

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The fact that women are underrepresented as main heroes in games and other popular media is however still an actual thing, and there's certainly nothing wrong in trying to bring a bit of balance there either.

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Again, this is just plain wrong. There are literally hundreds of thousands of female leads if you include all media.

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Originally Posted by Bright Shield

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Ok then. Let's look at another point. Your decision to clear the Consort's name of the framing charges in Mass Effect 1 does not properly transfer to Mass Effect 2 (one of several decisions that is glitched in the transfer). Does this mean that it is "canon" that, no matter which choice you made, Shepherd never helped Shai'ira?

Because otherwise you have to realize that technical issues can adjust the story, without actually affecting canon. That an inability to transfer save files and take your decisions into account does not invalidate those decisions. We already know that system limitations are responsible for things like P3P not getting The Answer, and not being able to load your save file from P3 or FES into P3P, so what else might have been decided as impossible or impractical because of technical restrictions?

The story you play is the canon. ATLUS moves the story forward in the best way they could. They had to make a decision one way or the other, but that doesn't mean that they are disallowing the choices of fans of the other side.

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This doesn't really apply to the P3 MC, since later material confirmed him and The Answer, as the true canon path. You've provided an explanation as to why P3P didn't include the answer, but that doesn't change the fact that The Answer is confirmed as canon in later material.

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I wasn't saying that The Answer was non-canon, I'm saying that the fact that the games are restricted to only showing a single route for the story is not indicative of only that route being canon. No, the games do not take into account everything you do, or every decision you make. That is not ATLUS saying that your story was invalid, that your experiences didn't really happen in the game's story. That's simply ATLUS working within the technical limitations of gaming.

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I wasn't saying that The Answer was non-canon, I'm saying that the fact that the games are restricted to only showing a single route for the story is not indicative of only that route being canon. No, the games do not take into account everything you do, or every decision you make. That is not ATLUS saying that your story was invalid, that your experiences didn't really happen in the game's story. That's simply ATLUS working within the technical limitations of gaming.

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That's the problem. Canon can only follow 1 path by it's very definition.

As of right now, we don't know the exact canon path for Persona 3 or 4. However, the male MC and The Answer are confirmed canon. These two things have been confirmed, and cannot be argued. The true endings for both games have also been confirmed as canon.

Other things such as how you did in school, which social links you completed, and who you dated, are left ambiguous on purpose(although Yukari as the main love interest is heavily implied in The Answer).

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Originally Posted by Bright Shield

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I wasn't saying that The Answer was non-canon, I'm saying that the fact that the games are restricted to only showing a single route for the story is not indicative of only that route being canon. No, the games do not take into account everything you do, or every decision you make. That is not ATLUS saying that your story was invalid, that your experiences didn't really happen in the game's story. That's simply ATLUS working within the technical limitations of gaming.

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That's the problem. Canon can only follow 1 path by it's very definition.

As of right now, we don't know the exact canon path for Persona 3 or 4. However, the male MC and The Answer are confirmed canon. These two things have been confirmed, and cannot be argued. The true endings for both games have also been confirmed as canon.

Other things such as how you did in school, which social links you completed, and who you dated, are left ambiguous on purpose(although Yukari as the main love interest is heavily implied in The Answer).

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So, since canon can only have one valid path, I guess you're saying that Wrex surviving Mass Effect actually isn't canon. It can't be canon that he died and canon that he lived. That's two different paths, and only one "by definition" is possible, right?

The entire point of putting choices in games is that it gives the player control over the story. If there was only one route to take, only one linear route for the story, then there is no point to having a choice.

The PA voice telling you that the train is pulling into Iwotodai station? That's an example of a single canon event. It doesn't matter what the player does, it always plays out the same way.

Whether the main character says "hi" to Yukari when they first meet, or whether the main character asks her why she has a gun? Which of those is canon depends on what choices you make.

If you want an example of something non-canon in the games, look to Persona 4 Arena. The bonus side stories, like the one where Yukiko obsesses over the boxed lunch and poisons everyone, or the one where Chie beats up everyone for a beef bowl? Those are non-canon. Stories that are declared to be outside the continuity of the game and series. The rest of the events? They're all canon, even though some of them are mutually exclusive.

I've played both FES and P3P, and in my opinion P3P is the superior version. Taking out walking around doesn't subtract much. The only real loss is the cutscenes. I doubt anyone will argue against the female protagonist being more interesting and better written than the male protagonist.

I didn't enjoy the answer, so my view might be skewed.


Skyblade: That's not a fair comparison with ME. The whole point of ME is that the canon is what you make of it, a common theme among WRPG's. For example, in skyrim, do you join the Dark Brotherhood, or do you destroy them?
In DAO, (SPOILER)do you die, or do you give Morigan the power to rule the world?
Do you support Alistair, or do you become the king?

In Fallout NV, the side you support becomes the canon. Future games aren't going to mess with it.

Persona 3 is JRPG with only one path, and in the basic game, only one ending.
Persona 4 has several endings, but only one TRUE ending.

The canon for P3 is set in stone, and the only difference is your attitude, your gender, and who you date if any.

Both the Shin Megami Tensei games and the Persona games are very heavy on player choice. It's an incredibly important part of both the stories and the gameplay. Heck, Persona would suffer more for having dialogue options removed than Mass Effect would.

Is the story more scripted? Honestly, I don't think so. You still have just as many options in side quests and content that isn't part of the main story. Your decisions still change the people you interact with, how they relate to you or their own problems, and the main stories of both are beyond your input except for a couple of key decisions.

Even if it were more scripted, so what? It's still interactive storytelling. Go play Golden Sun (seriously, do so, it's a brilliant game). That's a linear story without player choice. Look at how few options you get, and look at how many of them require you to choose a particular answer in order to proceed, or steal your answer away if you don't make the one the game wants.

Persona is a game based on choice. The entire Social Link system is driven by choice. One of the biggest themes of the story is choosing the path of your life in the face of a looming fate. The choices you make determine the course of your story. That is why they are there.

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So, since canon can only have one valid path, I guess you're saying that Wrex surviving Mass Effect actually isn't canon. It can't be canon that he died and canon that he lived. That's two different paths, and only one "by definition" is possible, right?

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Indeed, only one path can be canon. However, since the story changes depending on player choice, we don't know which path was canon or even if a particular path was canon. The only way to know for sure in ME is for Bioware to confirm an official path, either by statement, or by a sequel following a certain path.

It's possible for there not to be a canon path in some games. However, it's not possible for there to be more than 1 canon, since that goes against what canon means.

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The entire point of putting choices in games is that it gives the player control over the story. If there was only one route to take, only one linear route for the story, then there is no point to having a choice.

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Yeah, you can influence YOUR story. However, you can't influence the official path. Assuming later material confirms a canon path.

For example, I'll use FF7 again. I didn't recruit Vincent on my first play through. Canon-wise he joined the party though.

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The PA voice telling you that the train is pulling into Iwotodai station? That's an example of a single canon event. It doesn't matter what the player does, it always plays out the same way.

Whether the main character says "hi" to Yukari when they first meet, or whether the main character asks her why she has a gun? Which of those is canon depends on what choices you make.

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The canon path for the second event is simply unconfirmed. As of right now, we don't know what he said. However, if Atlus makes a sequel, and they show a flashback of the MC saying "hi", then that was the canon choice.

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The rest of the events? They're all canon, even though some of them are mutually exclusive.

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Again, it's not possible for two contradictory events to be canon. There's two endings to P3, and only the one where you choose to fight is canon. As later material confirmed.

Yeah, not really.

Canon.

Nothing about any definition I have ever seen restricts canonicity to a single timeline. Good luck applying that definition to Doctor Who, or, for that matter, any series with multiple dimensions/worlds. Such as, say, Persona.

Canon simple refers to the veracity of material with respect to author intent. Every story in Persona 4 Arena is canon, despite the fact that they are all self contradictory. Except for Chie's quest for the beef bowl or Yukiko's box lunch fiasco, which were specifically excluded from the canon.

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Canon simple refers to the veracity of material with respect to author intent.

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Ugh... fine then call it "the timeline that Atlus is following". Which is all I'm getting at.

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Every story in Persona 4 Arena is canon, despite the fact that they are all self contradictory.

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Again, not possible. Atlus can only follow 1 path in the sequels. That path is the canon path.

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Originally Posted by Bright Shield

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Canon simple refers to the veracity of material with respect to author intent.

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Ugh... fine then call it "the timeline that Atlus is following". Which is all I'm getting at.

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Every story in Persona 4 Arena is canon, despite the fact that they are all self contradictory.

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Again, not possible. Atlus can only follow 1 path in the sequels. That path is the canon path.

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Sure they can. Let me give you an example of what they can, and probably will, do.

Yu Narukami's story is almost certainly going to have actually happened. He'll have won the tournament, saved Labrys, etcetera. However, the events in the other character's stories will have happened as well. Naoto will still have delivered her report on Mitsuru and the Shadow Operatives. Even though, if we do take Yu's as the "official" path, Naoto would have lost earlier, been stuck sitting in one place, and never have gotten the interaction with Mitsuru that wound up driving the conclusions in her report. Chie is still going to look up to Akihiko as a mentor and guide. Even though, again, unless she actually was the champion in the tournament, she would not have had enough interaction with Akihiko to form that relationship. All of the events of the story will have happened, even though the events do contradict each other.

Also, your point wasn't that there was a single timeline that ATLUS was following, but rather that anything that wasn't being directly carried over or expanded upon in later games wasn't worth playing. That because in Persona 4 Arena and Persona Q, the main character of Persona 3 is male, the female main character story doesn't count. Similarly, I guess, Marie's story in Persona 4 Golden doesn't matter, since she wasn't mentioned, nor were any of the events in her story. I guess we can assume that Yu didn't max the Social Links with any of the Investigation Team, since none of them had their final Personas in Persona 4 Arena (even Teddy, who you have to max to beat the game). I guess that Yu didn't romance anyone, since there is no romantic indications given in any of his interactions in Persona 4 Arena. I guess you should just play Persona 4 without forming Social Links with any of your team, without getting a girlfriend, without exploring any of Persona 4 Golden's extra content. And I guess you can't really play Persona 4 Arena at all, since all the stories contradict each other and you can't find a single timeline in there to follow.

I actually don't care if a particular detail in one game doesn't end up canon. I still think they matter, and I would say most game developers seem to agree with me. There are tons of things in lots of games that might or might not end up as canon later. Just because only one character in Tekken 6 ends up canonically winning according to tekken 7 doesn't mean seeing all the other character's endings was pointless. They were still fun and gave some insight about their characters, even if they didn't end up winning. Even if there was revealed a Fallout 3 official canon where the main character didn't kill everyone in Tranquility Lane, that doesn't mean that whole subquest was worthless and unimportant.

You (Bright Shield, that is) seem to be extremely focused on what is canon and not, and it seems to me that you think the only content in a game that matters is the content that later ends up canon (but excuse me if I mistaken about this). I'm not going to argue against you on there being only one official canon, because I don't actually disagree with that (unless something crazy is going on, like the writers revealing that both stories happened, but in different dimensions or whatever). I just don't think canon/noncanon is that big an issue in games where you can play things out differently each time. Even if not canon, these things often show "what if" scenarios in whichever games you're playing, and even if "Character X" canonically didn't get a chance to do "Action Y", you still learn something about that character's personality. You learn what he would have done if he was put in that sort of situation. In a sense, we get to know this character better than the character knows him or herself. Even if that isn't part of the canon.

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Also, your point wasn't that there was a single timeline that ATLUS was following, but rather that anything that wasn't being directly carried over or expanded upon in later games wasn't worth playing.

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Not worth buying P3P if you've already played through FES. That was my point.

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That because in Persona 4 Arena and Persona Q, the main character of Persona 3 is male, the female main character story doesn't count. Similarly, I guess, Marie's story in Persona 4 Golden doesn't matter, since she wasn't mentioned, nor were any of the events in her story.

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Marie is in Persona Q, so she is most likely canon.

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I guess we can assume that Yu didn't max the Social Links with any of the Investigation Team, since none of them had their final Personas in Persona 4 Arena (even Teddy, who you have to max to beat the game).

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I believe that Atlus has stated this was a design choice rather than a plot element.

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I guess that Yu didn't romance anyone, since there is no romantic indications given in any of his interactions in Persona 4 Arena.

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Nothing is said either way. It's left up in the air.

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You (Bright Shield, that is) seem to be extremely focused on what is canon and not, and it seems to me that you think the only content in a game that matters is the content that later ends up canon (but excuse me if I mistaken about this).

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Not saying that at all. I get every possible outcome, so I can see everything. I was saying that I don't think P3P is worth it if someone has already completed FES. This is due to P3P missing a chunk of the canon story, and replacing it with a filler scenario. Not worth it to me.

Well, I have P3FES and P3P and I enjoy both games. I think there's not too few that feel the same as I do. That said, I didn't pay for P3P so it can't not be worth it when the cost was 0. I think I would have bought it if I had no other choice, though.

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Originally Posted by Bright Shield

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Also, your point wasn't that there was a single timeline that ATLUS was following, but rather that anything that wasn't being directly carried over or expanded upon in later games wasn't worth playing.

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Not worth buying P3P if you've already played through FES. That was my point.

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It isn't a point you've made well. Heck, part of the reason they built the Female Main Character was to supply a new and different experience to people who already played Persona 3 and FES.

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That because in Persona 4 Arena and Persona Q, the main character of Persona 3 is male, the female main character story doesn't count. Similarly, I guess, Marie's story in Persona 4 Golden doesn't matter, since she wasn't mentioned, nor were any of the events in her story.

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Marie is in Persona Q, so she is most likely canon.

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And what about the other new features, like the third tier Personas for the Investigation Team? Again, in Persona 4 Arena, they're still using the First Tier Personas, so I guess the others are non-canon, and therefore not worth it.

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I guess we can assume that Yu didn't max the Social Links with any of the Investigation Team, since none of them had their final Personas in Persona 4 Arena (even Teddy, who you have to max to beat the game).

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I believe that Atlus has stated this was a design choice rather than a plot element.

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The fact that the Persona 3 protagonist was restricted to the male main character was also a design choice. It was due to a lack of ability/resources to completely rewrite the story going forward for both the male and female main character. They had to choose a single path going forward, they needed some way to refer to the character, but it wasn't meant to declare that the female main character was not a part of the story.

Exactly the same way in which the inability to adjust Persona 4 Arena's story to take into account seven different romance options, so they chose a path to go forward as a design decision, rather than a plot one.

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I guess that Yu didn't romance anyone, since there is no romantic indications given in any of his interactions in Persona 4 Arena.

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Nothing is said either way. It's left up in the air.

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And if they could have left the male/female up in the air, they would've. But they really couldn't.

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You (Bright Shield, that is) seem to be extremely focused on what is canon and not, and it seems to me that you think the only content in a game that matters is the content that later ends up canon (but excuse me if I mistaken about this).

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Not saying that at all. I get every possible outcome, so I can see everything. I was saying that I don't think P3P is worth it if someone has already completed FES. This is due to P3P missing a chunk of the canon story, and replacing it with a filler scenario. Not worth it to me.

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So you'd rather see an inferior chunk of writing that you've already seen before than see a new (and entirely in-canon) take on the story that you haven't seen, and that has superior writing?

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It isn't a point you've made well. Heck, part of the reason they built the Female Main Character was to supply a new and different experience to people who already played Persona 3 and FES.

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I can say the same to you. The female MC adds a few new dialogue options, and social links. Not worth the price, by any means. You can easily just watch the new content on Youtube. It's literally less than an hour's worth of content. There's no real reason to play the game again for that, unless you are a hardcore fan.

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And what about the other new features, like the third tier Personas for the Investigation Team? Again, in Persona 4 Arena, they're still using the First Tier Personas, so I guess the others are non-canon, and therefore not worth it.

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You missed what I said. Atlus has stated it was a style choice only. I can probably find the interview if I look for it, but it'll be a pain...

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The fact that the Persona 3 protagonist was restricted to the male main character was also a design choice. It was due to a lack of ability/resources to completely rewrite the story going forward for both the male and female main character. They had to choose a single path going forward, they needed some way to refer to the character, but it wasn't meant to declare that the female main character was not a part of the story.

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You can't make that assumption, without an official statement backing it up. Not to mention that it would have been all too easy for Atlus to be vague about this in Arena. All they had to do was say "guest", instead of "him", and not show the Male MC in the flipping credits... lol.

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And if they could have left the male/female up in the air, they would've. But they really couldn't.

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Of course they could have. It would have been all too easy. Like I said, just use "guest" instead of "him". And don't show the male mc in the credits.



So you'd rather see an

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inferior chunk of writing that you've already seen before than see a new (and entirely in-canon) take on the story that you haven't seen, and that has superior writing?

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You're exaggerating again. I'd rather get hours of canon story and actual GAMEPLAY, than a fantasy scenario(which by the way is only marginally different than the male path). Superior writing? lol, not at all, that's subjective. The male mc story is the true canon version. Just accept it. You're the only one denying it. At this point you sound like a female MC fanboy, lol.

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Originally Posted by Bright Shield

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It isn't a point you've made well. Heck, part of the reason they built the Female Main Character was to supply a new and different experience to people who already played Persona 3 and FES.

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I can say the same to you. The female MC adds a few new dialogue options, and social links. Not worth the price, by any means. You can easily just watch the new content on Youtube. It's literally less than an hour's worth of content. There's no real reason to play the game again for that, unless you are a hardcore fan.

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You do realize that Social Links are about half the gameplay of the Persona games, right?

Oh, that's right, you don't. You don't realize that there are choices to make in them or different paths to take with them, because you are completely obsessed with everything only having a single valid path, and eliminating all choice in the game's story.

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And what about the other new features, like the third tier Personas for the Investigation Team? Again, in Persona 4 Arena, they're still using the First Tier Personas, so I guess the others are non-canon, and therefore not worth it.

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You missed what I said. Atlus has stated it was a style choice only. I can probably find the interview if I look for it, but it'll be a pain...

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The fact that the Persona 3 protagonist was restricted to the male main character was also a design choice. It was due to a lack of ability/resources to completely rewrite the story going forward for both the male and female main character. They had to choose a single path going forward, they needed some way to refer to the character, but it wasn't meant to declare that the female main character was not a part of the story.

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You can't make that assumption, without an official statement backing it up. Not to mention that it would have been all too easy for Atlus to be vague about this in Arena. All they had to do was say "guest", instead of "him", and not show the Male MC in the flipping credits... lol.

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And if they could have left the male/female up in the air, they would've. But they really couldn't.

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Of course they could have. It would have been all too easy. Like I said, just use "guest" instead of "him". And don't show the male mc in the credits.

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I do remember hearing a statement about it somewhere, though I can't find it now. Perhaps more interesting, however, is that Persona 4 Golden changed the reference to the main character of Persona 3 from a specifically male reference, to a general term in the Japanese version (even if the localization team missed this change).

Also, Arc Systems started development on Persona 4 Arena before the release of Persona 3 Portable, so...

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So you'd rather see an inferior chunk of writing that you've already seen before than see a new (and entirely in-canon) take on the story that you haven't seen, and that has superior writing?

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You're exaggerating again. I'd rather get hours of canon story and actual GAMEPLAY, than a fantasy scenario(which by the way is only marginally different than the male path). Superior writing? lol, not at all, that's subjective. The male mc story is the true canon version. Just accept it. You're the only one denying it. At this point you sound like a female MC fanboy, lol.

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"Canon".

You keep using that word. I do not think it means what you think it means.

And you're starting to sound like a dismissive, argumentative brat who falls back on mocking tones and mindless repetition when the discussion doesn't go his way.

You can just watch all the Social Links on YouTube, why even bother playing the game? Heck, you can watch The Answer's "new content" there. Although you'll probably have to find a Let's Play, because no one figures that the combat is worth recording on its own, except for the Erebus fight.

Also, as long as I'm here:

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Originally Posted by Bright Shield

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Well, personally, I don't think that The Answer is written as well as the rest of the game is.

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I don't disagree.

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Writing quality may be subjective, but that doesn't mean that everyone can't agree that The Answer's writing was inferior, even you. And, yeah, most people who've played it would agree that Shinjiro's Social Link beats the Gourmet King's hands down, and that this trend continues for all of the Female Main character's Social Links. The ones that were rewritten were among the worst in Persona 3.

Also, I'm not exactly a Female Main Character fan boy. As I said, my personal story is the male main character's. But I am a massive fan of interactive storytelling (as is ATLUS), and I feel that restricting your story out of some fear that you aren't following the "official" story is outright STUPID. The choices and options are there for a reason. Your story is your own.

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You do realize that Social Links are about half the gameplay of the Persona games, right?

Oh, that's right, you don't. You don't realize that there are choices to make in them or different paths to take with them, because you are completely obsessed with everything only having a single valid path, and eliminating all choice in the game's story.

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There are tons of choices. Only some of them can be official though. End of story.

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The fact that the Persona 3 protagonist was restricted to the male main character was also a design choice. It was due to a lack of ability/resources to completely rewrite the story going forward for both the male and female main character. They had to choose a single path going forward, they needed some way to refer to the character, but it wasn't meant to declare that the female main character was not a part of the story.

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Like I said, using the word "guest" would have sufficed.

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I do remember hearing a statement about it somewhere, though I can't find it now. Perhaps more interesting, however, is that Persona 4 Golden changed the reference to the main character of Persona 3 from a specifically male reference, to a general term in the Japanese version (even if the localization team missed this change).

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Indeed, that is a point in your favor. However, Arena blatantly showing the male MC, along with only the male MC appearing in Persona Q brings us back to square one.

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Also, Arc Systems started development on Persona 4 Arena before the release of Persona 3 Portable, so...

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The writer was the same for both games though, and he clearly had the Female MC's route all done by then.

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"Canon".

You keep using that word. I do not think it means what you think it means.

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And I think you're too stubborn to admit what it means. =P

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And you're starting to sound like a dismissive, argumentative brat who falls back on mocking tones and mindless repetition when the discussion doesn't go his way.

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lol, this is hilarious coming from you. You are arguing merely for the sake of arguing at this point.

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You can just watch all the Social Links on YouTube, why even bother playing the game?

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Worst argument ever. P3P is almost the exact same game as P3 story-wise. Save for a few new dialogue choices, and new social links. That hardly warrants playing through the entire thing again, unless you are already a huge fan. There's maybe an hour's worth of new content... at the very most...

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Heck, you can watch The Answer's "new content" there. Although you'll probably have to find a Let's Play, because no one figures that the combat is worth recording on its own, except for the Erebus fight.

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The Answer offers many hours of actual gameplay, and Persona 3 is you know... a game. Not the same as minimal dialogue differences and a few new scenes to watch.

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Writing quality may be subjective, but that doesn't mean that everyone can't agree that The Answer's writing was inferior, even you.

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Well of course it's inferior to the main story, lol. That's not even a fair comparison. It's not badly written by any means though.

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And, yeah, most people who've played it would agree that Shinjiro's Social Link beats the Gourmet King's hands down, and that this trend continues for all of the Female Main character's Social Links. The ones that were rewritten were among the worst in Persona 3.

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You keep using the Gourmet King as an example. Like I said, The Sun is the best, deepest, and most thought provoking social link in P3, and it's an NPC social link.

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Also, I'm not exactly a Female Main Character fan boy. As I said, my personal story is the male main character's. But I am a massive fan of interactive storytelling (as is ATLUS), and I feel that restricting your story out of some fear that you aren't following the "official" story is outright STUPID. The choices and options are there for a reason. Your story is your own.

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I bolded it for you this time. Yes, YOUR story is your own. The official story is dictated by Atlus though. That's what I'm trying to get through to you.

There is some good news for me at least. Persona Q was confirmed to be canon, thus confirming Female MC as non canon(this should have been obvious Skyblade). I just love being right. =P

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Originally Posted by Bright Shield

There is some good news for me at least. Persona Q was confirmed to be canon, thus confirming Female MC as non canon(this should have been obvious Skyblade). I just love being right. =P

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Yet you still don't understand what the word "canon" means.

Technically the Amala Network from SMTIII means she can be canon since Persona is still connected to the SMT Timeline.

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Yet you still don't understand what the word "canon" means.

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I'm afraid that's you my friend. The very fact that you think there can be "multiple canons" confirms that.

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Technically the Amala Network from SMTIII means she can be canon since Persona is still connected to the SMT Timeline.

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Yes, this means that she can exist in some sort of alternate universe. However, I've made it insanely clear to Skyblade(in a different topic) that I'm referring to the time line that Atlus is following. Female MC does not exist in the official Persona continuity. Thus she is non canon to the over arching story. Atlus has opted to stick with the male MC.

Canonicity is merely a term used to represent veracity with respect to author's intentions for the material. Female Main Character was put in specifically to provide another facet to the story. In other words, specifically to expand the "canon" material.

There is not "multiple canons". Canon is an inclusive term of everything that the writers believe contributes to the overall universe they are building.

Non-canon includes things like the Chie beef bowl brawl with Akihiko or Yukiko's lunch box obsession. Things never developed to be an actual part of the world, but just for fun.

I'm referring specifically to the Persona 3 continuity. In which, the female MC does not exist. Her timeline ends after P3P. The male protagonist's path is what leads into all the sequels. Thus he is the only one that is canon to the current timeline.

Persona Q is confirmed canon, and there is no female MC. The plot involves time travel and memory loss to tie into the Persona continuity, but it still connects directly to both P3 and P4.

SomeoneI know posted a timeline chart to reflect this.


Timeline 1 aka the Short One


Persona 1: Snow Queen Quest followed by SEBEC quest (1996) --> Persona 2: Innocent Sin (1999)...end of timeline (Innocent Sin is still canon, but it's story is what basically created Timeline's 2 and 3)



Timeline 2 aka the(mostly) Non-Canon One


Persona 1: Snow Queen Quest followed by SEBEC quest (1996) --> Persona 2: Eternal Punishment --> Persona 3 Portable FeMC Route (2009-2010) --> Persona: Trinity Soul (2019)...end of timeline.



Timeline 3 aka the Official One


Persona 1: Snow Queen Quest followed by SEBEC quest (1996) --> Persona 2: Eternal Punishment (1999) --> Persona 3 FES 04/06 - 09/20 (2009) --> Persona Q --> Persona 3 FES 09/21 - 3/05 (2009-2010) --> Persona 3 FES: The Answer (2010) --> Persona 4 Golden 04/11-10/29 (2011) --> Persona Q --> Persona 4 Golden 10/30-03/21 (2011-2012) --> Persona 4 Arena (2012) --> Persona 4 Arena Ultimax (2012) --> Persona 4 Golden Epilogue (Summer 2012) --> Persona 4: Dancing All Night --> Persona 5?


I'm saying that female MC is non canon to timeline 3, and she isn't. Also since Q involves time travel it exists in the timeline twice. You'll see when you play it.

Okay, I've merged this conversation in with the other thread you made to discuss this exact thing. I'll ask that you don't derail every Persona thread that comes about with this discussion. :)

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Originally Posted by Shauna

Okay, I've merged this conversation in with the other thread you made to discuss this exact thing. I'll ask that you don't derail every Persona thread that comes about with this discussion. :)

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Thanks. And yeah, my bad. I only brought it up since Persona Q was just confirmed as canon.

I'm afraid I have to go along with Skyblade on this about your misinterpretation of "canon". See, FemMC is canon cause she is confirmed to exist though not necessarily in the main timeline. For her to be non-canon, Atlus would have to basically say "Oh, P3P? Yeah that didn't happen." which as far as I know they have only said this about Persona Trinity and possibly the Naoto Side Story Manga since P4 Golden and the P4 Arena series has made it incompatible with P4's timeline without basically saying some of those events changed.

She has also been featured in more than just P3P as she has her own series of Drama CDs and her story is part of the P3 Stage Play in Japan which tells both characters story. She may not necessarily appear in an future Persona projects but its not the same as saying she's non-canon. I mean the Amala Network and SMTIV pretty much establish that all endings in the SMT universe (SMT, Persona, Devil Summoner, etc...) are actually canon despite the fact that SMT2 continues from SMT1's Neutral ending. It's kind of Atlus' Author's Saving Throw to validate player choice. I think you're simply confusing canon with continuity. She can exist in the canon, and not be part of the main continuity.

A case in point is that Innocent Sin is canon, there is no and ifs or buts about it because Eternal Punishment can't happen without it. Especially since Tatsuya, who plays an integral part of it all, is from the IS Timeline. The other issue is that while Philemon and some shout outs prove that Persona 3 and 4 are connected to the earlier installments, there is no evidence to suggest that they are part of the same timeline, for all we know, P3 could come from a third timeline, possibly one where IS ended with the party actually stopping Nyarlarthotep as opposed to what really happened. Hell they could even come from a timeline where P1 and P2 didn't happen but the characters from those timelines still exist in the P3 timeline, it still wouldn't mean they are non-canon.

To bring this back to the greater issue, the Persona franchise itself is from a split timeline from SMT where the events of SMT if... happened instead of the events of SMT1, the entire Persona and non-Raidou Devil Summoners all exist in this split off universe which itself has multiple timelines from crazy trout like letting a god reset the world cause your party blew it. They are all still technically part of the same SMT Multiverse, hell the SMT line of games themselves are all canon despite three of the games dealing with different scenarios of the same deal. This is because all the games are in different timelines yet they still keep pushing forward an overall story because the figures who can freely traverse the multiverse can see all the different worlds and respond to them. In a similar manner, Philemon and Nyalarthotep can do this as well since they are Persona's equivalents of gods and confirmed that IS and EP both happened despite taking place in two different timelines. The issue here is that the Persona universe and SMT universe confirm the existence of a multiverse with different timelines and worlds. Just because the main continuity chooses to follow one timeline doesn't mean the others are non-canon, it just means its easier to follow that one (especially since its the one that brought in all the fans and is more recognizable) and also that Atlus doesn't really give a smurf about this trout like its nerdy fanbase does. I doubt we'll ever see a real Persona timeline cause I feel the design team doesn't feel its important. Then again, I could be wrong who knows?

I'm talking about canon to the current timeline. While Q has established beyond a shadow of a doubt, that she doesn't exist at all in the continuity. Hence why she is non canon to the overall story. She only exists in P3P.

This debate started in a different topic when I said that there's no point to buying P3P if you've already played FES, since P3P removes The Answer(which is integral to the continuity). The debate led to Skyblade eventually stating that the Female MC might be the official path for all we know. I posted this new info on PQ to show once and for all that female MC does not exist in the Persona canon(continuity-wise). Thus you get a lot more bang for your buck with FES.

P3P has two scenarios that are mostly the same with a few different social links.

FES gets two vastly different scenarios. All together it's the Journey(along with anime movies), the Answer, Arena, Ultimax, and Persona Q.

That's what I was getting at. FES is the most complete version of P3, and the one that you need to play in order to understand the full story. P3P was for fans that wanted to experience a fun alternate scenario. Which will most likely never be referenced in any of the games.

Personally (I am not playing around with the definition of the word "canon") I think that FMC in P3P is canon but does not apply to the main timeline of the series.

Obviously Atlus chose to have male MC in the timeline of Persona games and thus, all the games will refer to him and not the female mc.

That said, female MC still is canon in her own timeline that so far didn't really expand and probably won't. That does not mean she didn't exist. She is just dead end, something like... I dunno good analogy... Like non true ending of the game. It can and if you want to, does happen but only the True ending has continuity in the series.

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Originally Posted by Bright Shield

I'm talking about canon to the current timeline. While Q has established beyond a shadow of a doubt, that she doesn't exist at all in the continuity. Hence why she is non canon to the overall story. She only exists in P3P.

This debate started in a different topic when I said that there's no point to buying P3P if you've already played FES, since P3P removes The Answer(which is integral to the continuity). The debate led to Skyblade eventually stating that the Female MC might be the official path for all we know. I posted this new info on PQ to show once and for all that female MC does not exist in the Persona canon(continuity-wise). Thus you get a lot more bang for your buck with FES.

P3P has two scenarios that are mostly the same with a few different social links.

FES gets two vastly different scenarios. All together it's the Journey(along with anime movies), the Answer, Arena, Ultimax, and Persona Q.

That's what I was getting at. FES is the most complete version of P3, and the one that you need to play in order to understand the full story. P3P was for fans that wanted to experience a fun alternate scenario. Which will most likely never be referenced in any of the games.

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I don't necessarily disagree with any of this. Though I would still point out that just because the series follows the original Male MC from P3, it doesn't mean the FemMC is actually non-canon (unless PQ establishes something I am unaware of) as the set-up of the franchise makes it possible for her to return in a future installment if Atlus really felt like it, hence why I say she is canon, just not in the main continuity. If she were truly non-canon, they could never re-use her outside of maybe shout out or maybe some non-canon DLC. It's not like the Naoto Manga or Trinity Soul where the main continuity has made all those scenarios impossible to happen or the Persona Team has outright stated it is non-canon. Course we're also talking about a series where every new retelling of P4 becomes the established canon. I wouldn't be surprised if P3 follows suit with the P3 movies.

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I don't necessarily disagree with any of this. Though I would still point out that just because the series follows the original Male MC from P3, it doesn't mean the FemMC is actually non-canon (unless PQ establishes something I am unaware of)

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Nothing unexpected. Just that the their is no female MC, in this timeline.

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as the set-up of the franchise makes it possible for her to return in a future installment if Atlus really felt like it, hence why I say she is canon, just not in the main continuity. If she were truly non-canon, they could never re-use her outside of maybe shout out or maybe some non-canon DLC. It's not like the Naoto Manga or Trinity Soul where the main continuity has made all those scenarios impossible to happen or the Persona Team has outright stated it is non-canon.

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It's actually exactly like the Naoto Manga or Trinity Soul. Those could have possibly existed in alternate universes as well(had Atlus not confirmed them as non canon). Female MC is in the same boat. She clearly does not exist in the main story: the only way we could ever see her again is in some sort of alternate reality. This is highly unlikely though. Persona Q is all about bringing characters together through space and time, and she still doesn't exist. It would have been all too easy to add her into the continuity, but she was scrapped. Since she simply doesn't exist in the official canon. She's basically one confirmation away from being 100% non canon.

I wish we could get Atlus to comment on this directly. Much like Matsuno did on Ramza's fate in FFT(where he was confirmed to be alive at the end).

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Course we're also talking about a series where every new retelling of P4 becomes the established canon. I wouldn't be surprised if P3 follows suit with the P3 movies.

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The P4 Anime was never the established canon. The current timeline consists of P3:FES and P4:Golden. Those are the ones that the sequels follow.

Not true about P4, as P4 Arena borrows elements (mainly Yu Narakami's official name) as well as the waitress chick is confirmed to exist in the series despite debuting in the anime, I would say the P4 anime was canon until Golden was released and even then, P4 Golden is getting an anime adaption so it wouldn't be far fetched for elements of that to make it into future titles if it had certain changes fans like. As far as the P3 canon thing, it has more to do with the MC's real name will probably be the film version as well as the games likely giving small shout outs to his characterization in the films.

As far as Persona Q being able to bring the Fem MC in and not doing it, I would argue it would have been harder to write her in than you think and also I feel that since the Male MC shows up in all of the games he's easily more recognizable and the main character in the main continuity, so for the sake of keeping the fans on the same page they stuck with just using him. It would have taken too long in the story of PQ to explain why their are two leads for P3 and how the cast of P3 all know both of them without the two knowing each other and the game was already going to be a headache with time travel/dimension hopping anyway with just having the two casts of the games meet each other without complicating it even further and frankly, the Mega Ten series is usually pretty good about keeping their plots accessible without dealing with "read the sourcebook" drama that stifles so many other RPG franchises. Hell the connection of all the SMT games with each other is mostly tentative at best with the company and more of a fan thing.

Until she's confirmed as actual non-canon she can still exist in the series and not be used, it isn't helped that she is in the same character limbo as the male MC whom most fans are just waiting to make a return though I feel Arena has alluded to the fact it probably won't happen until so far into the series timeline that it would be irrelevant.

I just want to throw in, this has been the single stupidest discussion to ever take place on this forum.

:p

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Originally Posted by NeoCracker

I just want to throw in, this has been the single stupidest discussion to ever take place on this forum.

:p

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You obviously forgot about this thread then...

I stand by my statement.

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Originally Posted by NeoCracker

I just want to throw in, this has been the single stupidest discussion to ever take place on this forum.

:p

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lol, maybe. If you think this is dumb, steer clear of GameFaqs though. This is Shakespeare compared to what goes on there. =P