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Right, so, before you and the gang go off to destroy the Mako Reactor in Sector 5 Tifa leaves Marlene alone to take care of the bar. Because, you know, that's not irresponsible at all. I'm sure this will in no way come back to bite our heroes in the ass.
Tifa: Hey, Aerith, can you go get the child I left alone at the bar?
Aerith: Kay.
Gets kidnapped by Shinra
Oh, AVALANCHE.
Discuss.
A lot of parents end up kicking the bucket in this game. It's hard to be a responsible parent when there is something even more important than your own child at stake. Barret sums it up best when he's talking to Elmyra at her house pre-HQ assault.
Seriously?Quote:
Originally Posted by Jiro
They leave an eight year old in charge of a bar in a bad neighborhood. I don't see how this is acceptable in any setting.
How is it a bad neighbourhood? Are you making that assumption based on the fact that it is a slum? One of the bar's most frequent patrons is Johnny who has a hard on for Tifa and would protect Marlene with his life; Sector 7 could very well be a close knit community.
The idea that an eight-year-old could be left in charge of the bar is horrific at best, but that is still assuming our standards apply. Besides: it doesn't appear that they have a separate home; perhaps she merely locked the doors and stayed there. Taking her along on a terrorist attack doesn't seem like better parenting. I would have liked to see her go next door and staff with Johnny's family, but again, there is no guarantee that his family didn't look after her anyway given that Johnny was leaving town and they would be without a kid for the first time in forever.
Also, yeah, sometimes there are bigger fish to fry.
Elmyra
"You're her father!? How in the world could you ever leave a child alone like that!?"
Barret
"...please don't start with that. I think about it all the time. What would happen to Marlene, if I..."
"But you gotta understand somethin'... ...I don't got an answer. I wanna be with Marlene... But I gotta fight."
"'Cause if I don't... the planet's gonna die."
"So I'm gonna keep fightin'!"
"But, I'm worried 'bout Marlene. I really just wanna be with her... always."
"See? I'm goin' in circles, now."
No point protecting your daughter if she's gonna die along with everyone else far before their time, right? If you've got the power to fight, isn't it your responsibility to do so?
I'm making that assumption based on being robbed blind in a train and a kid trying to hustle me out of money to sleep in his bed.Quote:
Originally Posted by Jiro
I forgot about Johnny, though. And locks.
Anybody could be on that train; it doesn't necessarily have to be a Sector 7 resident. The kid hustling you is simply a kid trying to make some money. He's not letting you sleep in his bed and then pinching your wallet. It's a straight business transaction! RPG Heroes get it easy; they think they can take stuff and sleep wherever they want!
Honestly, I think you're assuming that Marlene is innocent and too childish. If she's growing up in Midgar, she's probably actually very mature for her age. She LIVES in the bar. She knows what to do. She'll be fine.
Nah a kid's a kid. Irresponsible.
Marlene would bottle any :bou::bou::bou::bou: trying to mess with her, imo
Sector 7 resident or not, said person causing trouble doesn't have to be directly from that sector. RPG heroes are jackasses, though. You mentioned Johnny, so we'll assume Johnny is watching from afar and the locks that never exists when you're going into other people's homes.Quote:
Originally Posted by Jiro
Well, the game doesn't do a good job of showing me a child who grew up in the slums and know how to fend for herself and it's still early in the game. What am I supposed to think? She seem pretty innocent in Advent Children as well, so that doesn't help.Quote:
Originally Posted by Jinx
Molotov Cocktail?Quote:
Originally Posted by Parker
Nah, just straight up glass a smurfer. She's a rough n tumble sort, I'm sure.
I now want to see this happen.Quote:
Originally Posted by Jiro
Marlene has the Ultima materia
Isn't Marlene only four in FFVII?
Either way, I agree with those who've said that, in the grant scheme of things, leaving her at the bar wasn't necessarily the worst option. Sector 7 has got some good people in it, and I'm pretty sure they wouldn't have expected Marlene to operate the bar while she was there - just to sit tight until they got back.
I agree with the OP. Nothing against the neighborhood, but you don't leave a four-year-old child home alone under any circumstances. If they had left somebody else there to take care of her (Tifa, Jessie, some waitress, or, hell, even Johnny) that would be understandable. I don't care how tough or mature you think Marlene is, she is a four-year-old girl alone in a bar and to express any kind of sympathy for these people who have abandoned her just speaks volumes of your personal regard for a child's well-being. We're not simply speaking of her physical safety, a child has be around responsible and caring adults to ensure they develop a healthy outlook and emotional state.
There are fathers who go off to war and parents who work in law enforcement who may die on the job, but they do not leave their children home alone. Four years is not an appropriate age to assume your child can take care of his or herself even if it should happen to be true. She's a human being, not a pet you have tied up in the backyard.
I apologize if I've insulted anybody but you might glean from this I'm pretty passionate when it comes to this stuff. I may not be a parent but I damned well know a four-year-old kid can't be left alone because I've been that kid. Thank you and good night.
This is certainly true from a modern societies prospective, however historically there have been many cultures that were not as protective with their children. (Heck even when I was younger things were noticeably different.)
Also I find 4 years old a little hard to believe based on how she acts.
Then how do we determine what kind of society Gaia is based off of and why is this argument only ever brought up when someone points out a flaw in something laid out in front of them?
And the Final Fantasy Wiki confirms that Marlene was only four years old during the events of Final Fantasy VII.
I only point it out because the uber-protective state we consider normal is indicative of a modern set of western values. In Sector 7 we see a world which I would judge to be more historical (industrial revolution level), and slum conditions which echo more the developing world than the developed world. Hence it seems a little off to me that we judge them by the standards we have for the modern western world when the closest real world analogues seem to be completely different.
The official sources can say whatever they want about Marlene's age, I go by how she acts. Even if she is 4 she is an extreme outlier for the age, and hence can not be treated as a regular 4 year old.
Fair enough on both counts. I judge with such a mindset because it's inbred into me at a young age and how I view the rest of the world is affected by it, and I know I am not alone on that front. It was only recently I started to learn and acknowledge other culture and they're differences to our own that tends to influence their own original works. That is why I make threads like these. To promote discussion and see if there are things I'm not considering because of preset notions imprinted in my mind.
JRPGs seems to have a habit of making people act older than they are. That much can be seen in how the 30+ year old Barrett acts like an old, broken down warhorse (from what I can remember) when he should be a man in his prime.
I wouldn't even say that the age thing is a JRPG thing exclusively, it is extremely common in Anime as well. And it drives me nuts.
We determine it by examining as much of the evidence in the game as possible. It only comes up when people don't treat it as an obvious point; there's no point reiterating something which should be already accepted. :ffviwag:Quote:
Originally Posted by ToriJ
I can imagine there are places in the Middle East and Africa where there is constant fighting where young children are left alone while the parents fight for their freedom and safety. I can also imagine there are grandparents or someone who looks after groups of children, and the absence of this figure in Midgar is disappointing. Marlene could have had a guardian; it was lazy design to leave her on her own. But it has nowhere near the severity as it would if this took place in your town. There is a reason that both Tifa and Barret have to go and if they do not and the planet dies then good job on protecting your kid.
PS I find it funny that Tifa is prioritised as the bad parent when she's Barret's adopted kid, not hers (until AC in a sense).
Tifa comes across as an acting mother in this to the point when I first played the game I thought she was Marlene's mother. I figured Barrett was implied in my original post since he's just sort of 'there' when all of this is going on and Tifa's placement of Marlene and sending Aerith after her is what gets Aerith abducted by Shinra.
It does depend on the culture and the severity of a situation. My dad was working and my mom was asleep when I (six) and my brother (four) burned the apartment down. It's so easy for a child to do something profoundly stupid especially if the parents don't pay attention to the warning signs (my brother and I already had a habit of setting things on fire). Our family was not particularly close with many of our neighbors. I only know of one who risked his life to run into the smokey haze to try to find my brother before the heat got to him.
It's possible Marlene has been taught better and is more responsible. It's possible that the locals would stop at nothing to save her if some accident occurred. It's possible. But it's not an excuse. I don't know how kids are raised in American slums. I'm not even sure where they are. The closest I've ever been to living in a slum were rundown apartment complexes swarming with insects and heavy drinkers on the "wrong" side of town. It may not be my place to choose whether to condone leaving a four-year-old home alone... I just don't. No exceptions.
>>> Thats not good but there are way worse places in Midgar for a helpless lil girl :shifty:..:luca:Quote:
Originally Posted by ToriJ
Speaking of Johnny... I just replayed this part of the game today and when you talk with Johnny, he leaves town.
Yeah, I noted that earlier. It dampens the idea that Johnny would help in that situation, but he certainly could have earlier, and such a nice guy probably has parents who are willing to help. They are, after all, a little melancholy about losing their kid.
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Originally Posted by Jiro
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Originally Posted by ToriJSeriously?Quote:
Originally Posted by Jiro
They leave an eight year old in charge of a bar in a bad neighborhood. I don't see how this is acceptable in any setting.
I'm with you ToriJ, Tifa could have at least left Marlene with Grandparents or a responsible neighbour :-p
I wonder if Marlene has a total misunderstanding of how law works and thinks she can pass a bar exam because of her upbringing.
Why is this on Tifa? Isn't Barret her guardian?
I think Tifa was great with Marlene
There was a secret panic room/basement for her to hide in if anyone broke in
And considering she's raised by a person with a gun for a hand Im sure she's been taught the 10 do's and 500 don't's of knife and gun safety.
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Originally Posted by Colonel Angus
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Originally Posted by ToriJ
You mean the basement where you can slide down the pipes and climb up it?Quote:
Originally Posted by blackmage_nuke
The rest of what you said is reasonable.
I teach a kid called Floyd, who's six, and he and his mate are always watching his parents' liquor store. :gator:
I'm not even going to get into the horrific details of alcohol poisoning.
What is an 8 year old supposed to do if a patron is drunk and unruly? Throw him out? Right.
An 8 year old could totally bum rush a guy out of the bar. This is the slums, she could totally mess them up.
Knowing people who do it in real life doesn't make it any less irresponsible.Quote:
Originally Posted by Quin
Edit: She's four during the events of FFVII, guys.
Mr Dolphin is a pretty great parent for Priscilla. President Shinra is kind of crappy for Rufus though.
It being "irresponsible" is your opinion not a fact. Different societies have different values and customs. My mom used to go out at night all the time when she was 7. Hell, I've had more than my fair share of alcohol before I was even 13. The belief that alcohol is like kryptonite to children is a stupid one. Marlene would probably make a fine bartender.Quote:
Originally Posted by ToriJKnowing people who do it in real life doesn't make it any less irresponsible.Quote:
Originally Posted by Quin
Edit: She's four during the events of FFVII, guys.
Marlene grew up in a slum. The fact that nothing bad happened to her shows that she is capable of taking care herself. The fact that she lives in a slum with her single father, isn't dead, and acts older than her age is also proof of this.
If a badass single dad with a cybernetic machine-gun hand left his daughter at his close friend's bar, in their own neighborhood, and you were a pedophile/mugger/murderer, would you pick her as a target for your crimes? I would pick easier prey if I were a scumbag. Prey that wouldn't get me killed. Criminals are more often cowardly than bold. Besides, kids that grew up in slums are capable of taking care of themselves. Otherwise, they would be dead.
Vox has a point.
No, you shouldn't leave your child alone ever in a million years- especially at that age.
But the fact is, it -does- happen in the real world. In Mexico and other "poor" countries, children are left alone- and left in alone in much more dangerous situations than what Marlene was in because Mom and/or Dad need to make money for basic necessities and have no one to watch out for their kid(s) while they're gone. They have to trust that their child(ren) will be okay when they come back.
The difference is, Marlene is lucky that she has the community of Sector 7 to kind of help her. For most of the kids who really live this life, it's not so much the same.
Never said it was, but Quin was making it sound like just knowing someone who does it in real life automatically makes it okay with no other real explanation so I said what I said. I don't have a problem with your other points and I was never meaning to imply it was the alcohol that was dangerous. Nox made some good points too that I never considered before. Thanks.Quote:
Originally Posted by CAST VOXIt being "irresponsible" is your opinion not a fact.Quote:
Originally Posted by ToriJKnowing people who do it in real life doesn't make it any less irresponsible.Quote:
Originally Posted by Quin
Edit: She's four during the events of FFVII, guys.
You'll find life considerably less frustrating if you don't put words into other people's mouths and then get annoyed at them. xD
Marlene's predicament reminded me of Floyd, is all.