https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1HC2...&feature=share
Extremely graphic sexual language being taught as part of a school lesson? This is mass molestation. The school district needs to held fully liable for this lack of oversight.
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https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1HC2...&feature=share
Extremely graphic sexual language being taught as part of a school lesson? This is mass molestation. The school district needs to held fully liable for this lack of oversight.
how is that molestation
why was that dude arrested
literally every human in that video is stupid
While I think we shouldnt sheild our children from sexually explicit material, I think it is something that should be persued through their own choice and not something they should be forced to do or fail. I can see why some 14 year olds may not be comfortable reading or discussing sexual matters and should not be forced to do so beyond the necesary informative safety precautions. The child (not the parent) should be given a choice of exemption from the text and required to read a different assigned text with similar themes. I think this should apply to any subject that isnt about hard fact (art, music, english). If I had a child and they were forced to write an essay on a rap song about bitches in the club or tits in a painting and my child was uncomfortable with doing so I would object for them as an individual student.
If someone was talking to you about sex (even if they dont mention anyone specific) and you told them you were uncomfortable and asked them to stop and they didn't (or you wanted to leave but they were in a position of authority to deny you as such) I think that can be considered sexual harrassment and I dont think it should be any different in a school.
As to the video I think the guy overreacted but he wouldnt have gotten his desired result otherwise and the school wouldve just ignored him, whereas now its a media thing.
I'd just like to point out that if the book talked about people murdering or even torturing each other in graphic detail, I doubt any of the parents would have batted an eye.
I think they did. That's why there arent any books about gratuitous torture in the curriculum anymore (that I can think of).Quote:
Originally Posted by Vivi22
As for murder, I think by 14 almost everyone knows that people die and sometimes other people cause it.
WOW I Didn't expect to see apologists on this one. Do you guys have any idea of what just happened? The school is not going to issue any type of liability for this type of oversight unless the issue is pressed. They are trying to misdirect attention towards the arrested parent instead of the real offended parties. The offender is getting let off free.
Of course this is sexual harassment or molestation. It's not the nature of public education to immerse students in a variety of different radical forms of expression, where do we draw a line between a balance between liberal education and grooming children to be sex slaves and tools of violence?
There is no conceivable universe in which a sexually explicit lecture counts as molestation. It may be questionable at best but your sheer hysteria about this topic is likely to prevent anyone from giving the slightest bit of a trout about it and, if anything, is likely to dissuade people from agreeing with you.
NH is full of full on idiots. Live free or die my ass. Why isn't everyone there dead yet? I hate that I must cross the Connecticut every day to work in that god awful state.
I haven't watched the video because I'm at work. Is it a textbook, a lecture, or literature they are reading in class as a sort of read-along project? Either way, it's possible that the language may be inappropriate, but calling it molestation is a joke. Have you ever been subjected to molestation? The two aren't even remotely comparable.
This I disagree with. School isn't all about math, science and english and you can just choose to not learn about anything outside these realm of these three subjects. If the student is uncomfortable, measures should be taken to see that they are made to feel comfortable, which should include removing them from the classroom if need be, but I think that sexual education is important.Quote:
Originally Posted by blackmage_nuke
edit: oh, you mean outside the generally informative sex ed. Okay, sure, I can agree with that.
Well gee, one is reading some books and analyzing their content in a critical fashion with the aim of increasing their understanding of the world, and of increasing the sophistication of their understanding of art and culture, whilst the other is grooming children to be sex slaves and tools of violence. I think that might be where the main difference lies.Quote:
Originally Posted by zx12y
As someone who has actually been molested for real I can assure you that there are no parallels to be drawn between the written word and the actual crime of molestation.
To answer your question, Shorty, the offending material was a book called Nineteen Minutes by Jodi Picoult. The one page in the book everyone is up in arms about in the video is a sex scene between two high schoolers that's explicit, I guess. The scene had spoilered for sexual descriptions a couple mentions of the guy's erection, describing the guy "pumping" into the girl, and talking about semen pooling on the ground. Anyone who would read the scene should know that at least some parents would be pretty uncomfortable with it, and the issue seems to be that students had the book before parents ever got a notice of the book's content. They were given a waiver after the students had the books for a week (if I understood the complaints in the video), and the description in the waiver didn't really align with the offending material.
From what I understand, this sexually graphic material was only on one page of the novel. From my research, the whole novel is about a school shooting, detailing the before and after of the event. Bullying is a major issue explored throughout the text. Based on that basic summary, it could make for a pretty interesting and important discussion in the classroom. Was this scene talked about at all in the classroom? Were the students even supposed to read that scene? All we're getting from the video is the perspective of the upset parents, so I can't say I know the whole story, and perhaps it was something the dad blew out of proportion. Based on the descriptions from the parents, it does seem like the whole thing wasn't handled very well by the school. But again, we are getting a pretty biased perspective with that.
As for whether he should have been arrested, that's a whole different matter. He was allotted two minutes to talk like everyone else, and he exceeded that time and was asked to leave I think. He then eventually came back and started ranting about it again. I've seen school board meeting videos like this before, and I always think that the people should probably have just been escorted out of the building. I don't really get why they are arrested.
I don't know of great way to avoid problems like this. I think it's really important to challenge minds, especially young minds, by reading different types of literature and different ideas. Sometimes simply the act of thinking about things can make you more comfortable with your own thoughts and coming to terms with the changes in your state of mind as you develop. It can help you find your voice, and learn to face difficult, strange, or uncomfortable things that you will eventually see in your own personal life.
I also know that everyone has a different opinion on what is appropriate, and what isn't.
The best I can think of is having a list of required reading or suggested reading with a description of the over all theme for the book, and perhaps particular passages that may "challenge" the reader in certain ways. Then the kids and parents can pick a book they're both comfortable with.
I know this would mean more involvement by parents in working with their kids, and more effort on the part of teachers to be familiar with all of the works. It's not perfect, but I think it's an idea they should be refined and implemented.
The same can be said of sex and everything that was actually described in that referenced section of the book.Quote:
Originally Posted by blackmage_nukeI think they did. That's why there arent any books about gratuitous torture in the curriculum anymore (that I can think of).Quote:
Originally Posted by Vivi22
As for murder, I think by 14 almost everyone knows that people die and sometimes other people cause it.
And who said anything about things like violence or torture being gratuitous? They may be an integral part of the plot in a book worth reading and analyzing. I may have been stretching a bit to mention torture, but I know for a fact that a number of books we read in high school had quite a bit of violence in them. But almost no one would look at the violent scenes in any of them and say they shouldn't be read or that you should even have to notify parents about the fact they're being read in advance.
Having not read the particular book in question here, I can't say that this sex scene is gratuitous. What I can say is that reading and analyzing a book which may realistically depict teenage relationships, whether functional or dysfunctional, has value to every single teenage human being alive today. So the fact that it has an explicit sex scene doesn't matter to me at all. What matters is that scenes context with the rest of the book. But I don't think anyone here would actually try and argue that there wouldn't be more outcry over the sex than over violence regardless of context.
And to the OP, as others have said, comparing asking kids to read this to sexual assault or molestation is more than a bit of a stretch. Saying that having kids read a book with a scene like this is tantamount to grooming them to be sex slaves and tools of violence is outright absurd unless you have some evidence to back up that claim.
The main problem with a list of books is that the class cant study the text as a whole and the teacher's attention is further divided amongst them.
And I agree calling it molestation is a bit much.
I thought gratuitous meant something else.
I know I read violent books at that age but I dont recall anything with excessive violence actually being on the required reading list until the last two years of highschool and even then it was only because the subject of crime fiction was chosen out of the pool of available subjects and there were only 5 people in that class.
I dont know how other education systems worked but in ours there were times when we had to chose our own text to analyse as long as they fit the overall vague theme outlined in the curriculum (Journey, Change, that sort of thing) and I think if you want to chose a more mature text then more power to you but there are plenty of texts without excessive violence or sex that are worth discussing and exploring as a basis for further self chosen reading.
I think it is a problem that society has an easier time accepting violence than sex but I think the main problem in this topic comes from the education system, not society
I've seen passages just as explicit in Shakespeare at school. Sexual repression all up in this bitch.
There are teachers that actually do have lists of books that students can pick from to focus on. This can be done through literature circles, where you split the students up into something like 4 groups, each with a different book. There is also the reading workshop model where students have a lot of choice over what they read. I'm still a little iffy on how the reading workshop model works, but I know several teachers who have found good success with this model. In any case, it is something I think popping up more frequently now, sharky, to some success.
I think I'm probably most on board with blackmage_nuke on this one. Thinking of this as a parent, if my son came to me and was genuinely uncomfortable with the content, I would ask that he have a different reading assignment if he had legitimate reason. And I mean really uncomfortable, not feeling a bit awkward because some scenes in some books I've read or movies I've seen have done that, but I was okay with them. On the other hand, scenes that trigger some of my mental health issues I will stop reading because there is no reason to put myself through that, and if a student has such issues they should have the choice to step away from it.
Overall though, I'm very much against a lot of the censoring done in schools. Kids need to be able to think and examine and analyze and censoring everything often gets in the way of that. I don't care if there's a sex scene in a book, especially for 14 year olds, because a lot of them have sex and the others know what it is. A book talking about a teenager might have some sex in it, I'm really not outraged by that. When I was 14 we were reading some books with some heavy violent and sexual content in order to examine different things, such as distopian societies, consequences of ones actions, psychological issues, among other things. Some of them were hard to read, but that was the point. It made us think about things. It got us involved in the story.
Anyways, I haven't read the book so its hard for me to say exactly how inappropriate it may or may not have been.
are you a troll or what?Quote:
Originally Posted by zx12y
how is a sexually explicit book in a school ANYTHING like molestation or grooming children? that statement is so ignorant I'm almost offended.
the school is absolutely at fault for not letting him say his piece, I will agree with you on that for sure. hence why i said everyone in that video was stupid. but if you think that a graphic sex scene in a book is warping children's minds then you're a big silly head. (sorry to use such vulgar terminology, i hope i haven't molested you).
I think at that age I read The Giver and Brave New World which were pretty tame as dystopias go, but I read 1984 in my 20's and I loved it but it really freaked me out. I honestly think if I was made to read 1984 when I was 14 it would have traumatised me. Im not really making any sort of point here, just giving an anecdote.Quote:
When I was 14 we were reading some books with some heavy violent and sexual content in order to examine different things, such as distopian societies, consequences of ones actions, psychological issues, among other things. Some of them were hard to read, but that was the point. It made us think about things. It got us involved in the story.
Quote:
Originally Posted by blackmage_nuke
I realize that, which is why I said it wasn't perfect. Just an idea I think deserves more thought and consideration. Schools could perhaps offer online packets tailored to the book of the student's choosing that points out scenarios in the book, and asks them to write about their take on the subject. The teacher could cover broad ideas that are common in literature, literary methods, or certain archetypes, and ask the student to find and give examples of that in their book. Things like that.Quote:
Originally Posted by sharky
I find that interesting. We did read 1984 in school. It was freshman year I think, maybe sophomore. It never occurred to me that someone would have such a visceral reaction. It's nice to hear Scotty say the idea is of a book list is catching on, because maybe it could help avoid things like that.Quote:
Originally Posted by blackmage_nuke
I think it also honestly depends on the school and the district as well in terms of the whole reading list idea. Some schools can be pretty strict with the curriculum they want taught even to the point of having essentially scripts they should follow with every lesson. I'm sure that extreme is pretty rare, but I'm not sure I had much flexibility at where I student taught. It's hard to say since my teachers I worked with had specific books they wanted me to cover, but I'm pretty certain those books were mandated by the school as well.
In any case, I'm pretty sure lit circles, text sets, reading workshop, etc are all at least things popularly taught in colleges now. It was a big focus in my Education classes. I'm a big proponent on maximizing student choice and parental involvement so I at least like to hope these ideas are somewhat widespread.
if there is such a problem with it and the book is really THAT vital to the curriculum, the teacher could just take a sharpie to the offending scene and black it out. That way if someone REALLY wants to read it, they have to get their own. Or something? *shrug* I mean, it's just a sex scene. It's not like they're showing pictures or a video.
Real problem is we're teaching Jodi Picoult. I mean what?
Also I find that to be too sexually explicit for most fourteen year-olds. Sure some can handle it. Most probably would be disturbed or titillated. Some may have read that without even knowing what sex is. I can see this being read in a senior class but not a freshman class.
I didn't know what sex was until I was 11 and that was only because I found my aunt's dirty porno book she hid under the microwave in my grandma's house (IN MY GRANDMA'S HOUSE.) I definitely knew people in high school who were kind of fuzzy on the details until we had sex ed. I am sure it still happens - I have coworkers with kids that age who point blank REFUSE to talk to their kids about sex because they're scared to death the kids will IMMEDIATELY have unprotected sex and hundreds of babies.
I'm not saying that the community has to protect that way of thinking, I think that's a stupid way of thinking personally, but I also think early exposure a discussion about sex should be... well a lot more professional than that. Let's have sex ed then let's talk about risky sexual behavior and why it isn't worth it.
Hey, at least it's not Ayn Rand.
Part of me wonders if the religious conservatives who are okay with Nineteen Eighty-Four being taught in schools because anti-communism would be as okay with it if they realised Orwell was a lifelong democratic socialist who opposed capitalism just as much as he opposed communism, and wrote the book as an allegory against all kinds of totalitarianism.
My concern is primarily for the risky sexual behavior, not so much the sex itself. "They had sex" isn't as troubling to me as "they were intoxicated and had sex in which the female may have given an ambiguous revocation of consent which the male ignored. Afterward she cleaned up the aftermath and was more concerned about carpet stains than what just happened to her." While it's true I don't know the full context of the passage (perhaps it was an admonishment?) I do think that a lot of 14 year-olds aren't going to discuss it in a mature fashion and, unfortunately, some may even consider that type of sexual event the status quo.
I was 14 once!
Also we didn't look at warty genitals, but I think demonstrating the consequences of risky sexual behaviors is a good thing because teenager brains are still developing and they can't really do much comparative analysis of risk and reward. Sex ed teaches (or should teach us) to know your sex partners. Use protection. Avoid warty genitals. Without the full context of the passage, again I can't really determine the authors intent, but the end of the scene is pretty clear that the female character is normalizing what I read as a moderately violent event. That, to me, is dangerous to expose to adolescents who are more apt to agree and normalize than question and reject.
Since this is a serious thread in General Chat, I wanted to take advantage of the situation and make a joke, but I see you already beat me to it.Quote:
Originally Posted by zx12y
If we stopped being so uncomfortable about sex and stopped making it taboo, maybe we could educate our kids properly and not have them be uncomfortable with natural parts of humans and human society. I didn't have access to a computer and the internet in the same way as many kids do today but even at like age 12 I still had found out about sex and all sorts of other trout online. It wasn't all accurate or reputable either, so let's quit the bulltrout and teach our kids properly. And teach them early, so that they're not getting knocked up at 15, just one year after the parent freaks out about sexual content in the school curriculum. Appalling.
I am appalled by the discussion taking place. There is absolutely no critical analysis here to be spoken of, just a bunch of well-trained citizens licking the boot of authority.
Have we all forgot how to be civil people who assert themselves within the community? There is a liability issue here that is being swept under the rug. We are all being distracted by the lawyer and content of the book, but forgetting that their is a pedophile out there who is getting away with handing out sex pamphlets to children. The school board is just protecting the power of guilty people above them.
This is a horrible precedent to set. Notice how they have a 2-minute rule in place? That is because so many people came to address the controversy. Now a precedent has been set that the school may create issues and set itself up for an advantage in the political process because of its own shortcomings. Classic create a problem, solve a problem bulltrout.
All of you denying this is nothing like molestation are sadly mistaken. That is to be expected, since child abuse occurs regularly and people readily allow it to happen since people tend to be great at only focusing on
themselves. A better charge would be sexual solicitation of a minor, child pornography, or sexual harassment, but all the libtards here are confusing the issue by nitpicking my choice of words in abeyance to preconceived
concepts about love and violence, failing to recognize state-based violence.
People who are molesters often have build a rapport with the child, much like an authority figure would. This is much different than watching porn on a computer or movie with sex scenes (it was much more eliciting for myself, at least). Can you imagine reading this passage out loud as a group in class? These are instructions from an authority figure on how to repeatedly have promiscuous sex. This text simply normalizes unhealthy sexual behavior in such a way that victims of molestation would have a hard time dissecting the truth of their abusive
reality.
And since it has come this far, I should just go ahead and assert that I myself am a male who has been molested, so I understand the various forms of molestation and types of manipulations that might go into exposing vulnerabilities in children. The school just planted a huge seed in developing minds. I give a huge smurf you to
everyone defending this type of trout. This event was most likely a PSY-OP of sorts, and my thoughts go out to all the impressionable minds affected by this.
If after this book even one child gets an STD, gets pregnant, ruins their relationships with parents, etc. then the cost of the lesson was not worth it at all. There is no moral utility in this lesson except as a wake-up call to those
who haven't yet realized they are being raped by authority in general.
In case any of you missed it, the guy being hauled off was a lawyer. The cop is obviously a blind narcissist by saying things like "you don't know the law" and "stop resisting". See how difficult it is for the populace to assert themselves? Many reasonable parents would allow a professional such as himself to represent the issue, but that becomes an impossibility when we allow our freedom of speech to be trampled. I have tried to raise the issue with the proper authorities of the locale and have been getting the reach-around.
Your insistence that this is a case of molestation is offensive. You have clearly never had someone sexually force themselves onto you in a physical manner, which is the actual definition on molestation. I have, others here have. You are using attention-grabbing words to make this situation into something it is not. Stop it.
This is how molestation is defined:
It's not the same thing, and you calling it the same thing does not make it so. Please desist.Quote:
: to harm (someone) through sexual contact : to touch (someone) in a sexual and improper way
Have you considered that some of us just don't care enough to assert ourselves in the community, that we don't care enough to be upset because we don't agree with your point of view? Sorry if you're appalled by that, but calling everyone who disagrees with you "a bunch of well-trained citizens licking the boot of authority" is offensive, rude, and incorrect.
I don't understand people who are upset that others are not as upset as they are in regard to [issue here]. Why can you just not accept this? Let other people feel how they want to feel. Write to your congressman, write to the school, write to the lawyers. Don't harass the people here for not being are riled up as you are.
A PSY-OP? :p
zx12y I am very sorry to hear about your molestation and I am sorry that this event has triggered such a visceral response in you. Your experiences are different from that of many of us, but this doesn't mean we have to agree with your assessment of the content or the situation. I have already voiced that I think the material is a little too explicit for that age group in particular in it's demonstration of risky sexual behaviors but I don't think that it was intended for child grooming either.
I agree 100% with Jiro that it's important to talk to adolescents about sex frankly and directly so they don't conflate fact and fiction. I think that sex education is important and that it should start before high school. I also think that, unfortunately, most chlidren don't receive a good education because of the taboos on discussing sex, so for some of them material such as this could be confusing.
I do think an adult led discussion about the scene - and why the events that unfold are not positive - would be a great thing. But, as blackmage_nuke said, the child should have an opportunity to opt out if it makes them uncomfortable.
Finally, I don't really care that the guy was arrested or removed. He knew the rule, he broke the rule.