why darth vader bad whyyy whyyyyy he was so sweet whyyyyyy. wot appened u changed man

The screen is so bright it hurts me :(

I know it's stupid nitpicking really, and there isn't really a point in this thread but maybe someone has some crazy piece of knowledge that will illuminate my life.

When you really think about it, watching the prequels and such, I just don't see how Anakin turned into Darth Vader. (I know visually he did that was great stuff)

But

He's painted as a smurfing saint. The best person you could ever know in your life. Even in his adolescent years his worst trait is a bad temper. Heck, if a group of aliens had my mother tied up and had been torturing her and she died, I would of reacted the exact same way.

The only real sort of reason why he became Darth Vader was basically that, he had went too far. He'd killed younglings (hahahaha the word younglings,) he'd killed other Jedis and then he believed that he had been the one who had killed Padme.

BUT

His portrayal throughout the prequels, I just think, at some point, being the absolute amazing guy he is, he would of still had a change of heart at some point. Or not even bothered, after finding out he'd killed Padme he could of given up everything then. I don't think it would of took all the way to Return of the Jedi and his son to convince him of what was right, from the image of his personality we have been given.

I guess factors are, using the Dark Side inclines you towards evil anyway? I think that's probably the strongest argument. But yeah. Always seemed a stretch, so to speak.

I think the even stronger argument is, he went evil because it's a film and these reasons are enough

Plus we don't know what was going on in his head all throughout his life. He could of always been a bit craaaaazy. Maybe they could of went a bit further into his pysche growing up?

Thoughts?

He never really was all that good a person. A lot of the reason he fell had to do with his ambitions and selfishness. Though he was good there was always a part of him vulnerable to darkness, and once Sideous got to that part... boom. Face-heel turn.

There's a huge rift between how he was portrayed in the prequels and how he was portrayed in the original trilogy though. In episodes IV-VI the good part of him we saw was a lot different from the good part of him we saw in the prequels. Of course the prequels are mostly handwave-y bullcrap anyway....

I think though, and I've always been a champion of the prequels...I've just decided the first thing I don't really like about them. They should of explained his character more. They obviously should have, seeing as me and you have gotten completely different ideas of him!

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Originally Posted by Alive-Man

I think though, and I've always been a champion of the prequels...I've just decided the first thing I don't really like about them. They should of explained his character more. They obviously should have, seeing as me and you have gotten completely different ideas of him!

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That they should. He never really got a lot of characterization beyond "he's that guy who becomes Darth Vader, like him until he goes bad". We don't know what his personality is. Heck he got more characterization in the original trilogy than he did in the prequels, which were supposed to be all about him!

Oh man, I just had an epiphany.

It's all metafictional, the prequels, the actors they chose, all of it.

We, the audience, were afraid the prequels were going to suck. We were angry they were making them at all. We hated the movies. Everyone suffered.

Little Anakin is a piss-ant, and teenage Anakin is an annoying emo loser, because Lucas wanted us as an audience to channel all of our hate into the character. WE made Darth Vader. He is the culmination of an entire generation (ours) becoming more and more dissatisfied and angry. He is a projection of our collective angst. We hate little Anakin. That's where big Anakin got his power.

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Originally Posted by chionos

Oh man, I just had an epiphany.

It's all metafictional, the prequels, the actors they chose, all of it.

We, the audience, were afraid the prequels were going to suck. We were angry they were making them at all. We hated the movies. Everyone suffered.

Little Anakin is a piss-ant, and teenage Anakin is an annoying emo loser, because Lucas wanted us as an audience to channel all of our hate into the character. WE made Darth Vader. He is the culmination of an entire generation (ours) becoming more and more dissatisfied and angry. He is a projection of our collective angst. We hate little Anakin. That's where big Anakin got his power.

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First post on the Eyes On Final Fantasy Forums Experience I have been jealous of and wanted as my own.

Touché, chionos, touché. :greenie:

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Originally Posted by chionos

Oh man, I just had an epiphany.

It's all metafictional, the prequels, the actors they chose, all of it.

We, the audience, were afraid the prequels were going to suck. We were angry they were making them at all. We hated the movies. Everyone suffered.

Little Anakin is a piss-ant, and teenage Anakin is an annoying emo loser, because Lucas wanted us as an audience to channel all of our hate into the character. WE made Darth Vader. He is the culmination of an entire generation (ours) becoming more and more dissatisfied and angry. He is a projection of our collective angst. We hate little Anakin. That's where big Anakin got his power.

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So Anakin being a jerk and annoying was a take that at us for disliking the prequels?

I just think George Lucas lost his touch. The prequels were like bad fanfiction. There were plot holes galore, voodoo sharks all over the place, and Anakin hardly had any character whatsoever pre-Vader. And the scenarios were awful. It was all about politics up until he turned.

Oh yeah, someone enlighten me as to how he finds out he has children?

Obviously at first he thinks he killed Padme and the baby (cause he dun know twins)

How does he find out Luke is his kid? And doesn't he then think, 'wait, I must not have killed Padme. Emporer you lied to me man'

How does he know?

I apologise if there is something obvious I don't know. I just like these movies, I'm not massively way into the finer details.

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Originally Posted by Alive-Man

Oh yeah, someone enlighten me as to how he finds out he has children?

Obviously at first he thinks he killed Padme and the baby (cause he dun know twins)

How does he find out Luke is his kid? And doesn't he then think, 'wait, I must not have killed Padme. Emporer you lied to me man'

How does he know?

I apologise if there is something obvious I don't know. I just like these movies, I'm not massively way into the finer details.

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In the original version he both senses it in him and Sideous outright tells him about it.

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Originally Posted by Newmani

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Originally Posted by Alive-Man

Oh yeah, someone enlighten me as to how he finds out he has children?

Obviously at first he thinks he killed Padme and the baby (cause he dun know twins)

How does he find out Luke is his kid? And doesn't he then think, 'wait, I must not have killed Padmeeeeeeee. Emporer you lied to me man'

How does he know?

I apologise if there is something obvious I don't know. I just like these movies, I'm not massively way into the finer details.

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In the original version he both senses it in him and Sideous outright tells him about it.

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Really? I neevverrrr remember Sideous telling him about it. Or maybe I was too young to understand. Although I've watched them since. I don't know :( I will look into this on youtube tomorrow and find the scene.

But, doesn't Anakin then think 'gosh emporer you lied to me i didn't kill padme'

I guessed he sensed it. Though at the same time, I always think, why didn't he always sense it? Surely he would have felt that somewhere in the galaxy his son of all people existed. If his Force was so strong?

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Originally Posted by Alive-Man

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Originally Posted by Newmani

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Originally Posted by Alive-Man

Oh yeah, someone enlighten me as to how he finds out he has children?

Obviously at first he thinks he killed Padme and the baby (cause he dun know twins)

How does he find out Luke is his kid? And doesn't he then think, 'wait, I must not have killed Padmeeeeeeee. Emporer you lied to me man'

How does he know?

I apologise if there is something obvious I don't know. I just like these movies, I'm not massively way into the finer details.

---

In the original version he both senses it in him and Sideous outright tells him about it.

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Really? I neevverrrr remember Sideous telling him about it. Or maybe I was too young to understand. Although I've watched them since. I don't know :( I will look into this on youtube tomorrow and find the scene.

But, doesn't Anakin then think 'gosh emporer you lied to me i didn't kill padme'

I guessed he sensed it. Though at the same time, I always think, why didn't he always sense it? Surely he would have felt that somewhere in the galaxy his son of all people existed. If his Force was so strong?

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Darth Vader at that point in time was fully engulfed by the Dark Side. When he hears he doesn't really care that the information was held from him, or that his son was actually still alive. He just wanted him converted or dead as per his master's wishes. It wasn't until later that it slowly hits him.

As for your second question, he might have just doubted it. After all, up until he was told, he thought his child was dead. He may have dismissed it partially, though he may have had doubts about whether his son was actually dead.

Yeah man, like I said at the start of the thread, I'm not really a nitpicky person and this isn't actually something I mind about. I agree with you :greenie:

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Originally Posted by Alive-Man

Yeah man, like I said at the start of the thread, I'm not really a nitpicky person and this isn't actually something I mind about. I agree with you :greenie:

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Yeah, after all the plot holes in the original weren't nearly as bad as they were in the prequels.

But in terms of bad characterization, I honestly think Padme's even worse. At the end of the third movie she dies according to official sources because "she lost the will to live." Yeah, I'll just lay here and die, because I lost my husband to the Dark Side and these children mean NOTHING to me. :P

that's george lucas' idea of love and romance for you

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Originally Posted by Newmani

But in terms of bad characterization, I honestly think Padme's even worse. At the end of the third movie she dies according to official sources because "she lost the will to live." Yeah, I'll just lay here and die, because I lost my husband to the Dark Side and these children mean NOTHING to me. :P

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That I think was the worst crime of the prequels. Padme was an amazing character. She ruled a planet when she was a teenager, she employed body doubles so she could gather her own information, she fought off a crapload of monsters during an assassination attempt against her, she represented and fought for the ideals of the voiceless and the oppressed in a huge senate, was respected beyond measure and kept the needs of her people every present.

Then she died of a broken heart?

http://www.reactiongifs.com/r/2013/0...-boo-bitch.gif

Anakin was hardly a saint. The animated Clone Wars shows him as a bit of a dick from what I've seen/heard, and he was always questioning Obi-wan's training because he was arrogant as smurf. He should not have been told he was the Chosen One; it did nothing for him but fill him with pride. His lightsaber skills were apparently off the wall though so there's that.

But, yeah. Easily corruptible. Jedi only train young children as a rule because they don't want them forming attachments and they want to kill off emotional responses before they take root. Just because we would react in a certain way doesn't mean a Jedi should. They're supposed to be custodians of the galaxy, a source of enlightenment and guidance and protection. Can't do that if they're committing crimes of passion all over the place.

Padme's loss of life is horrible 'cause she was a really cool character but I think we can head canon some of that bulltrout away with this: Anakin's affinity for the Force was so strong, and Padme's mind so susceptible to the image of adorable 9-year-old Ani, that she was unwittingly mind tricked into a sort of Force bond with him. When he "died", her body and mind freaked the smurf out and she could only cling together through the shared pain long enough to pop out a couple kidlings. I mean, Force bonds are explored in both Old Republic games so it's clearly a thing that was thought about.

He has a sensitive side too....

http://i742.photobucket.com/albums/x...guin/vadar.gif

I thought maybe he wanted to start the Empire because he didnt like that the Republic wouldnt help people and/or stop slavery in the outer rims but then Jaba still has slaves and I cant see why he needed to kill the Jedi younglings so I dunno.

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Originally Posted by blackmage_nuke

I thought maybe he wanted to start the Empire because he didnt like that the Republic wouldnt help people and/or stop slavery in the outer rims but then Jaba still has slaves and I cant see why he needed to kill the Jedi younglings so I dunno.

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'Tis the moral event horizon. Basically he gave into the Dark Side and went power drunk and stayed that way for almost two decades.

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Originally Posted by blackmage_nuke

I thought maybe he wanted to start the Empire because he didnt like that the Republic wouldnt help people and/or stop slavery in the outer rims but then Jaba still has slaves and I cant see why he needed to kill the Jedi younglings so I dunno.

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He might have had okay ideals but Palpatine had his hooks in by that point so it didn't matter. Idealism was just what helped push Anakin over the edge which is somewhat ironic given the idealistic vision the Jedi seem to have of the galaxy.

When you think about the prequels in context with the original trilogy a lot of it doesn't make sense. Take the final battle between Anakin and Obiwan for instance and then think about how they interact when they meet up in Episode IV. That doesn't sound like a conversation one would have after being left to burn alive in lava, I'm just saying. You'd think it would have gone more like:

Vader: Hey, super prick, burn anybody today?
Obiwan: Nah. Kill any innocent children lately?
Vader: No, but I'm about to gut an old man like a pig.
Obiwan: Not if I gut myself first!
Vader: What?
*slow lightsaber fight*
Vader: They just don't make them like they used to.
Obiwan: I agree. Oh, hi, Luke! *lets down his guard and dies*
Vader: What the--? *kicks Jedi robes* This feels... anticlimactic.

And I agree with Jiro that Anakin was no saint. Wasn't some of the sand people he killed women and children that had nothing to do with his mother's death?

Yeah, like, I know Lucas always says he had basically the entire story planned out very early but I seriously doubt that. When Obi-Wan and Vader face each other for the second time, it's seriously out of context with their battle in Revenge of the Sith.

I feel you, ToriJ.

The transformation was ridiculous. A few moments of anger and arrogance, alright, but the guy was meant to be decent and we were meant to feel sympathetic towards him. Suddenly BAM, I'm your servant Mr Emperor so it's time cold-blooded child murder. I mean, what? Makes no sense.

The few times that he crossed that line and tapped into the dark side of the Force were enough to get a bit of a stranglehold on him. It doesn't matter if it was a few times or the one that initiated the fall, the embrace of power is irresistible. I don't think his fall was supposed to be gradual. Look at how many times he entered then turned his back on the dark side before. The disaster after his mother's death, the beheading of Dooku, to name a few such events, were, I think, situations designed to foreshadow his eventual return to the light.

I think the event that ultimately lead to his fall was completely justified. He was confused and afraid. He had a vision of his wife, the woman he's loved since childhood, dying and there was nothing he could do to save her. Sidious played on that fear, told him of an option, gave him hope, and the showdown between Mace Windu and Sidious only served to further his confusion. Does he stand up for the light and possibly lose his wife and unborn child, or does he choose the dark path and turn his back on his Republic and his Order to save the only person he cares about?

It's pretty clear everything that follows is the "Oh trout, I'm really in it now" phase. Once you do something you can't undo it, and it'd be pretty hard to live down having a part in your former master shooting out of a window in an electric blaze.