Spinoffs welcome in the discussion too! Which Final Fantasy game do you feel had the strongest character development?
Spinoffs welcome in the discussion too! Which Final Fantasy game do you feel had the strongest character development?
Final Fantasy IX or Tactics
Tactics or . . . IV, maybe?
VII or X. Each character develops, even if they fall out of focus. X was better at keeping people in focus than VII though.
It's not XII. Ashe was great but she's got a lot of dead weight to hold down. And it's not in her ass.
Depends on how subtle you like your character development, really. I'm not a big fan of the "complete turnaround" development some characters have, where they start off shy recluses and turn into charismatic politicians. Likewise I'm not a big fan of too subtle a change or just one moment of change.
I think a good example of character development done well goes to Wakka, with his racism and how he overcomes it.
An interesting person to look at is Lightning. On an initial look, she sounds the same as she ever did and she doesn't appear to have changed much at all. However, if you look closer, she is learning throughout the three games to not only work with others but also to trust in them, appreciate people she initially disliked and eventually discover how she has intentionally closed off parts of herself and how to get past that.
The best example of a dramatic change in personality probably goes to Sephiroth from being a generally nice guy to a psychopath.
Probably the best or worst (depending on how you look at it) case of dramatic multi-game character development goes to Cloud, though. When you look at his personality, it changes so notably between games. He is a curious case if ever there was one, but I'm unsure if he
A good example of character development done poorly is Nanaki. I love him so much, but dammit, Red XIII started off as a cool cat in a tricky situation, nearly tore Hojo's head off, talked the wise, sage kinda talk and then... GRANDPA GRANDPA OMG I'M A TWO YEAR OLD. :stare: I disliked that so much. From that moment on, he reclused from his chilled out persona into a sad, defeated little child persona and I didn't like it one bit. I'm talking about the general nature of his dialogue, not his side-story. His side story was done well. But his overall development throughout the game, not so much.
VII is the best game for analysing character development for me. The other games have it, just probably not in ways that interest me nearly as much.
In terms of overall cast of characters, I would say VI was pretty nice though IV, IX, and XII are good as well depending on what BoB was saying about subtle vs. Big Change. Though in terms of best development, I would say Squall has the best because of the way it was done as you can see his thoughts and action, which are initially pretty different grow slowly together until eventually Squall stops inner monologue and finally just starts "being". Say what you will about the romance but I felt Squall was probably one of the best introspection into a characters life we'll ever see in the franchise.
Barely half of XII's cast had any development or personality, Wolf. Come on now, the game is great but not for the overall picture. The party sucks, plain and simple. Ashe and Balthier are the only redeeming parts of the party. Basch doesn't change, Penelo doesn't change, Fran doesn't change. Vaan kinda changes at which point he's forgotten about for the rest of the game so about 70% of XII.
Final Fantasy VII and XIII.
Cloud: A self-critical, yet arrogant person, depending on the situation he faces in life. Starts confabulation as a result of subconscious use of JENOVA-S-cells and seperates a part of his character to supress it while it echoes from deep within and tries to reach the surface again so Cloud could wake up and reconnect his Lie
Some Normal Characteristics on the Surface together with his Truth knowing part and be no longer the master of his own illusions. He wanted to impress a girl but but not overcome the obstacles necessary because of his own conditions and later met another girl that even connected her soul to his. Feeling guilty he returned to his self-critical side which made him a loner again until those important to him he actually was able to find his happieness again.
Sephiroth: A proud being that thought of himself as a living wonder. He was aware of his powers and was confident about it but never was as arrogant as he became after being a villain. Conincidence made him discover a half-truth about his past which made him seek for vengeance and write his own fate as the Chosen One. After discovering the whole truth he still did not change his mind about dominating everything as in his mind nothing was superior to him and with the powers he possessed only his fully-grown arrogance made him weak for the only thing able to surprise and overcome him - the "Warrior of Light" power that always exists in Final Fantasy, the power to fight together, the power of love, of friendship, everything good. Though being so intelligent he pretty much can answer everything by himself because of his absoption of knowledge it being because of reading minds or absorbing life energy, he still cannot comprehend how such power can exist - and does not really mind as normally it still is no problem for him. He holds an comparable grudge against Cloud as he was the first and only one to ever actually beat him and disproving his invincibility due to his arrogance and Cloud's suffering. And yet he never actually gives up to continue his ascending and prove himself to be more worthy than the rest.
Lightning: A 15-year old girl that witnessed her mother leaving her on the death bed. She swore to become everything necessary to protect her younger sister, locked away the feelings unnecessary as well as her own life and was reborn as Lightning. Whatever she did, whether it being a young soldier of the Guardian Corps, giving her sister the life she deserves and trying to protect her from seemingly suspicious people such as Snow she did not trust first, even fighting bionic Gods to rescue her sister or fulfilling her duty as the champion of Etro and trying to tell her sister whatever was necessary to know as well as opposing even the Creator God of Light to finally be with her sister again, she is one of the most reliable people in Final Fantasy and though not the happiest person in the world she very well expresses her feelings everytime it is necessary for her, whether it being grumpy or worried or happy when she sees Serah again and after she finally is able to reunite with what she locked away for so long she finally could be Claire again, so in the end she could live a normal life in peace and find the ones she loves again in the new world.
FFXII developed its characters by opening up their stories over time, but the characters themselves are basically set from the beginning. They don't really change a whole lot. But it fits the story, so I'm okay with that. The main thing always is whether or not the characters fit the story.
FFVI had a great cast that went through a lot of change. Can you imagine what it would have been like if it had been made today? What they could have done with the characters? At the time, it was really inspiring what they were able to do with the characters given the restraints of the form in that era. The problem I guess would be unevenness, though. Some characters have great development, some bad development, and some don't develop at all. I still think they did a fantastic job with such an enormous cast.
FFIX has characters that change quite a bit. It's not all that subtle, and it happens in big lurching steps, but it's pretty good in several places. The problem here is that the focus is on just a few of the characters and we'd all like to see some more (A LOT MORE) development with certain other characters. Zidane and Dagger get a lot of screen time. Amarant deserved more. Freya deserved more. So in the end, though I love this game and its characters to death, I can't say it had the best development.
FFVII is overrated in the area of characterization. The characters don't develop. Cloud goes through a lot of changes in the process of unlocking his past, but that's not development. Aeris is the same beginning to end, and I don't think we get to see into her character fully, not at all. Barrett does his thing and he's clearly not ever going to change. We see a little change in Cid, but not to the extent we should. BoB pointed out the issues with Nanaki. I was really interested in Yuffie's development initially, but it never gets off the ground. We get a hint of development, and then it's just dropped and never goes anywhere. Tifa, I don't think the developers ever really nailed down what they wanted to do with that character. She seems kind of tacked on and empty. Not a good character. And no development.
If we can count it, FFT has the best development. Even the NPCs are well developed. Sure wish it had seen a full-on sequel. A modern sequel, something that could deal with the myriad characters and plots and schemes and whatnot.
FFX is a up there too, even if Tidus is an annoying punk.
I feel chionos struck upon what I meant.Quote:
Originally Posted by Forsaken Lover
Pretty much this, the character development of XII is less about the characters themselves growing and more about the story changing our perspective of them. Penelo is presented as a nagging older sister type who is more okay with the Empire than Vaan but as the story progresses we learn she's actually just as mischievous and adventure hungry as Vaan but feels obligated to Migelo to stay grounded until true adventure presented itself to her.Quote:
Originally Posted by chionos
Fran is pretty stoic but uncovering her past where she chose to abandon her people and her sisters to be free from their isolationist control and finally explore the world says a world worth of things about her and what's she gone through especially since her reunion with her sisters in the game show she sometimes wonders if she made the right choice. Fun fact, Fran is the shortened version of Francine which is Latin for "free".Quote:
“I'll be going too, of course. Every good sky pirate needs a partner, right?” —Penelo
Basch loses everything his home, his king, his reputation, his family and yet through it all he can hold onto his pride and his duty to do the right thing, his resolve is what makes him a powerful character as he is presented with chances to act out and always chooses to stay true to the promises he keeps.Quote:
“I have discarded Wood and village. I won my freedom. Yet my past has been cut away forever. No longer can my ears hear the Green Word. This solitude, you want, Mjrn?” —Fran to Mjrn
To be honest I loved XII's cast cause I felt they were so human without having to result to the same old flawed/redemption angle that previous installments have had to deal with. Their whole characters, the story wasn't about filling some hole in their soul, they were pretty near complete to begin with except for Vaan and Ashe.Quote:
“If I could protect but one person from war's horror... then I would bear any shame. I would bear it proudly.” —Basch fon Ronsenburg
I disagree pretty much completely with Sephiroth and I do disagree to some degree about chionos thoughts on VII's cast. I felt VII had good character development it was just largely really clumsy and awkward with characters like Barret, Cid, and Vincent, though I will say I agree that you're dead on with Tifa.
I'm calling BS on all that Cloud and Barret criticism.
Cloud as he's presented is this badass elite super warrior mercenary. He is living in a fantasy world because, in reality, he was always just this awkward little nerd who never had the balls to fess up his feelings to a girl he liked.
His development is him facing his past, facing his weaknesses, and overcoming them. He recognized that he is not the "ideal" self he projected for the first half of the game but something far more human and weak.
As for Barret, he initially projects himself as a "righteous fighter" who is a great leader and should be heading the crusade against Shinra. But we learn that his true motives are how Shinra utterly ruined his life. He comes to see that he was never cut out to be a leader and that he was doing the wrong things for the wrong reasons.
VII haters and fanboys are both equally blinded.
Exactly. Finding out what kind of Person you are, want to be and learn to deal with it and how is a Character development we all go through. In many terms. If anything the best for overall Characters is Final Fantasy XIII which has to tell much about the character's life and way of thinking in three installments and books. VII is more defined with the main characters in the whole Compilation.Quote:
Originally Posted by Forsaken Lover
I guess I shouldn't have said they don't develop, implying that none of them do at all. I mean generally, there isn't a lot of overall character development. I think this is in part because Sephiroth is so highly developed, some of that time or focus is taken from the playable characters.
Let's rate each of the playable characters' development, on a 1-10 scale:
** OPINION ALERT ** OPINION ALERT **
************WARNING************
O P I N I O N INC
Cloud: 5
Barret: 4
Vincent: 2
Nanaki: 3
Tifa: 2
Aeris: 4
Yuffie: 2
Cait Sith: 4
Cid: 3
Sephiroth 7
That's an average of 3.5
Keep in mind, this isn't just about where or not the character develops, but whether it develops well--whether or not the character development is only a plot device (Cloud, Aeris, Cait Sith anyone???) or a gimmick or nonsensical, etc.
Cloud doesn't make the story. The story makes Cloud. In this case rather literally. We learn more about what Cloud is not than what he really is. That's not good character-driven storytelling.
As far as Barret goes, his development is almost entirely tied up in his motivation for fighting against Shinra, and for the planet. He's an eco-terrorist because he cares about the planet, no it's just a revenge thing b/c of Dyne, no he wants to save the planet for Marlene. That's it. That's his development.
That doesn't mean you shouldn't like the character(s). It doesn't mean I don't like the character(s). It just means it's not quality development. Sorry.
I'm not a FFVII hater. I've always loved the game and most things about it. But it doesn't have stellar character development. Perhaps it has relatively good development for a Final Fantasy, but that is (sadly) not saying much. However much I love the series, however much I may like the characters, they're not deep, they rarely make sense, and they are, more often than not, simply plot devices.
I think the key thing is whether you like your character development subtle or heavy. You'd need to give me an example of what you feel is good character development I suppose. I mean, you list Sephiroth as having great character development yet I see him as having some of the worst character development. His development goes like this: Discovered what Hojo was doing and what this may have meant for himself, researched, changed from awesome fella to insane psychopath. For me, that's not what I call a dramatic development rather than a subtle development. While I like how Sephiroth changed and whatnot, I don't feel his development is better than that of Cloud, who goes through a few changes over the course of his life, some strong, some subtle.Quote:
Originally Posted by chionos
Also, interesting that you give Aeris a 4 for character development but so many others less. Considering her short amount of time in the game, I can't think of much development that Aeris got at all. She was exactly the same in her attitude towards pretty much everything from start to finish (as I believe was intended).
Oh, opinion, what you do to us. :D
XII has great development in terms of the characters being fleshed out. DRAMATIC CHANGE is not the definition of development, and to approach this topic with that mindset necessarily limits your appreciation of many aspects of many of the games.
IX does great with the characters it does develop, but disappointly lets too many drag behind, unfinished.
I can't remember much about VII. Enjoying the discussion, though! xD
Aeris' development lies in the fact that she learns to accept her role, to let go, to stop being afraid. Her rating, I guess, is based on what's done with her character while she is on screen, relative to how much/little other characters develop with the time they are allotted.Quote:
Originally Posted by Loony BoBI think the key thing is whether you like your character development subtle or heavy. You'd need to give me an example of what you feel is good character development I suppose. I mean, you list Sephiroth as having great character development yet I see him as having some of the worst character development. His development goes like this: Discovered what Hojo was doing and what this may have meant for himself, researched, changed from awesome fella to insane psychopath. For me, that's not what I call a dramatic development rather than a subtle development. While I like how Sephiroth changed and whatnot, I don't feel his development is better than that of Cloud, who goes through a few changes over the course of his life, some strong, some subtle.Quote:
Originally Posted by chionos
Also, interesting that you give Aeris a 4 for character development but so many others less. Considering her short amount of time in the game, I can't think of much development that Aeris got at all. She was exactly the same in her attitude towards pretty much everything from start to finish (as I believe was intended).
Oh, opinion, what you do to us. :D
Sephiroth's development makes sense. He is his own person. The pre-psychosis Sephiroth shows signs already of becoming post-psychosis Sephiroth. Clearly his story has its own flaws, but as far as FFVII goes, it's the most defined, and fits the character best.
THE MAJORITY OF CLOUD'S STORY ISN'T EVEN HIS OWN STORY. It's a great idea, a great PLOT DEVICE, to have his personality taken over by Zack's memories, but that doesn't make Cloud a well-developed character. He has no character. Even if he breaks through the barriers and retrieves his own memories and all that, it doesn't revert him back to a state where he is his own self. He may remember correctly now, but his personally is still infused with Zackness, and everything he does after that point can still be seen as merely what Zack would have done.
Subtle or heavy doesn't matter, as long as it fits, and as long as it's done well.
Good heavy character development: Ayla from Jean Auel's Earth's Children series.
Good heavy character development in a video game: GLaDOS, Kratos, Isaac Clarke, Andrew Ryan
Good heavy character development in a Final Fantasy: Celes, Shadow Lord, Cyan, Garnet/Dagger
Good subtle character development: Most any character in a Russian novel. Anna Karenina, Kostya Levin, Raskolnikov (though there are heavy aspects to his story), etc.
Good subtle character development in a video game: Garrett from Thief, Tim, Rucks (Bastion), Garrus (Mass Effect)
Good subtle character development in a Final Fantasy: Fran, Steiner, Wakka
I wonder how X-2 plays into this? Does it count as character development about how much Yuna has changed in-between games? If so, it did a great job. X-2 Yuna was a really good character compared to X. It was a very logical shift.
I was thinking about that. I decided not to count (for this thread anyway) games outside the primary entries, so no sequels and such. I agree, though, about Yuna. Sorta. The music thing comes out of nowhere. Or it did for me.Quote:
Originally Posted by Forsaken Lover
Probably unsurprisingly I agree with most of what chionos has said about the games in the series I've played. VII has a lot of strengths but the character development isn't... as great as it's frequently considered to be, and while IX has some great development for the members of its cast that get focus (Zidane, Garnet, Vivi, Kuja), there are a lot of characters who are underused (Freya, Amarant, Lani, etc.). Of the games I've played, the best development overall is mostly in VI. There are a few joke characters who aren't given any real development (Umaro, Mog, Gogo) but of the serious ones there isn't a single static character in the game. Even Sabin, who probably keeps the most of his personality through the course of the narrative, goes through subtle changes.
That would make every person that learns with a role model someone else (and metaphorically spoken that is not wrong as we often say to a person we see after 5 years "wow you are a completely different person" even though actually they aren't, metaphorically, yes). Cloud has much of his original characteristics on his surface even while confabulating and Aerith even saw that much of what lied on the surface was not "zacky" but a part of Cloud himself which as the person he was without his copied stuff she liked and found interesting, especially because Cloud was such a "slow" character. If I start to give priority over something, whether I consciously know it or not and in Cloud's case later even reconnect the rest of the supressed part and bring it to the surface again but still learn from the models I have, then it is still me. He no longer thought he was the one who did all that stuff but he still could have made a good use of what Zack was. And that is something we all do. We see someone to look up to and try to learn from it and that eventually becomes a part of us. In Cloud's case we even saw that, though seemingly weak, he still was able even before the Identity Crisis to become a person that overcome his obstacles by fighting for what loved. He was no brave SOLDIER but he still confronted Sephiroth in the reactor to take vengeance and help Tifa and Zack. So basically, yes, Cloud learned from Zack and probably does things that he never would have been too confident about before (and he has still his self-critical side). It is still his live he lives.Quote:
Originally Posted by chionos
What music thing?Quote:
Originally Posted by chionosI was thinking about that. I decided not to count (for this thread anyway) games outside the primary entries, so no sequels and such. I agree, though, about Yuna. Sorta. The music thing comes out of nowhere. Or it did for me.Quote:
Originally Posted by Forsaken Lover
On that note I also feel the need to bring up Last Mission and how it developed YRP, especially Paine. Rikku's jealousy towards Yuna finding what she wanted was also nicely executed.
Indeed, Yuna's anger in Last Mission is so honest that it feels weird while her anger in Final Fantasy X-2 feels weird just the way it is expressed inbetween. This one felt real however, to a very unusual extent.Quote:
Originally Posted by Karifean